002 Mother’s Premonition Transcript (Vidal Sassoon)

Listen to the full episode and see show notes at this link.

Michael: I'm going to give you a heads up. This is a really difficult one. You ready?

Alison: Oh, good. I'm so good at this already.

Michael: This is a man and he died in 2012. He was 84 years old when he was young. His mother had a premonition that he would become a hairdresser.

Alison: Johnny Cash,

Michael: Johnny Cash. Now he was roommates with the actors, Terence stamp, and Michael came. I don't know. He is credited with changing the way women wore and cared for their hair.

Alison: Paul Mitchell,

Michael: no, but a good guess. He fashioned his client's hair and to geometric shapes and sharp angles to compliment their facial bone structure.

Alison: Vidal Sassoon.

Michael: Today's dead guest is vid Alsace.

Vidal Sassoon: Thank you. Thank you. You doll, because you're using most styling products. It's harder to get your hair really clean and sexy, but now you can, with my new Vidal Sassoon, advanced Salame formula, the shampoo cleanses away starting buildup the conditioning finishing mens leaves your hair, radiant new advanced salon formula.

Look good. We don't.

Michael: welcome to famous and gravy a conversation about what really matters in life. One dead celebrity at a time I'm Michael Osborne.

Amit: My name is amit Kapoor

Michael: and through a series of questions about a famous person's inner and outer life. We want to figure out the things in life that we actually desire. And ultimately we answered the big question.

Would you

want their life today? Vidala assessive died. 2012 age 84. Here is the first line of the dialysis dunes obituary.

The doll says soon whose mother had a premonition, that he would become a hairdresser and steered him to an apprenticeship and the London shop when he was 14, setting him on the path that led to his changing the way women wore and cared for their hair died on Wednesday at his home in Los Angeles.

Amit, your reaction to that obituary. It's funny that it started

Amit: at the mother's premonition and aged 14. I normally don't see

Michael: that in an obituary. I mean, to have that as the first line of the obituary elevates that fact above trivia and hence that predestination. Yeah. Then it's a premonition. They even say age 14.

I mean, it's very specific, but in a way it's smart because it sort of hints that like this man had a destiny, you know? Yeah. And I liked that they

Amit: used changing the. He changed the way that people wear their hair. That's a big honor to bestow upon somebody right

Michael: there. There's a cultural impact. Yeah.

There's a significance there. Is it missing anything? I kind of wanted to

Amit: bookend the 14. So like premonition at age 14 died Wednesday at age 80.

Michael: For what these obituaries, they always say he was 84 after the first line of the obituary. They give the age death, but you wanted it integrated into the sentence.

Yeah, because I wanted to do the

Amit: math of 84 minus 14. And so the premonition basically lasted 70

Michael: years. Yeah. All right. Scale of one to. Seven. Interesting. Why, why is it not a 10 what's missing? I told you they were missing

Amit: the 84, the number at the end. And I think there was too much weight on the mother's

Michael: premonition.

If you were to edit this obituary, you might think about integrating the age in, and that would bump it up to an eight or nine for you. Yeah, that would do it. All right. Let's get to the categories. So it all says soon category one, five things I love about. Do you want to kick us off here?

Amit: Yeah, I'll start it.

And let me just say it. I had no problem once learning about him, of generating a list

Michael: here. Really? Okay. You fell in love with

Amit: that. I'm going to go chronologically. He was as a young kid, as a school kid, apparently an exceptional athlete at boats track and. What they call the football we'd call soccer.

And I always love that reversal when somebody is known as a fashion icon or an actor, but they were an early athlete. And when the reverse happens also when they were a early theater person or something, and then became an athlete, I just, I always love that towards.

Michael: Oh, that's interesting. So you love it because it tells you something about early talent.

Amit: No, because I don't think, I believe in predestination. Oh, to me, that proves that you just kind of have to wait and see what.

Michael: Interesting. All right. So we're going to put that on the list. Okay. I don't feel as confident about my list, so I think you're going to get three tonight and I'm going to get two. I put fought fascists.

That seems like a big one. That's on there. That's on mine. Okay. Great. In 1948, he was too young to go off to war, but he is in London where there is a homegrown sort of fascist youth movement. And he is out there raising hell to fight those facts. Is that the same fighting fascists that you found? I, yeah, I'm

Amit: not, I'm just putting as a fighter and somebody who's

Michael: experienced war.

Oh, you lumped it all in together. Yeah. Okay. So you're talking about not just experiencing London, being bombed during world war II, but also his service for the nation of Israel around 19 48, 49. Israel is just getting founded,

Amit: correct for no comment about that, but just the

Michael: fact that he experienced war, you're not going to weigh in on Zionism.

I

Amit: don't think this is the space. I

Michael: agree. I agree. He went to war and he experienced four and still found himself cutting hair. Okay. So that's number two. I like that one. All right. Well, I'm going to go with number three. I wonder if this is also on your list, his mother's premonition that he was going to be a heritage.

I did come across

Amit: that, but I didn't know this on my list. So now

Michael: I'm feeling a little weird about it because you said you don't believe in predestination. And, uh, that the fact that his mother had a premonition, that he was going to be a hairdresser of all things. I kind of find that to be an interesting factoid of his life, but I'm actually, I'm not going to put that on the list.

I'm going to put the next. Because it's a little bit more abstract, but it speaks to the same thing that he's the best. I mean, by a lot of accounts, the best at something, I'm not sure anyone was trying really hard to be the best at it's a sort of esoteric achievement to be the world's greatest hairdresser.

I mean, I know it's now a competitive field, but when he got into it, I'm not sure this was the kind of career that would make anybody world famous. So I like the dedication to something that. It's me. Shit, maybe niche. Isn't the right word. How would you put it? What do you think about this one?

Amit: I don't think Neisha is the wrong word.

I think like going for an extremely unique gift and being the best at something that's very distinct. It's so different than being as Supreme athlete or Supreme musician or a billionaire. It's just such a different

Michael: thing. It's not an obviously competitive profession. In fact, I would think most of the time it's not a competitive, well, it's

Amit: also not something that you think you could ever achieve super relativeness and exactly you probably can't now, but to even like, identify it at that point, I was like, this is something that I can master.

Michael: There's a little bit of a tangent, but I want to follow it. You said you probably can't now surely. New York or LA or Paris or London, there are highly sought after hairstylists. So it doesn't seem to me that this is something you can't achieve now, but did you think that his fame and success we'll talk about fame more later, but his success is the result of his timing in history?

Or do you think that this. A career that could be not mimicked. Exactly. But you could have another extraordinarily famous and commercially successful hairdresser in 2021.

Amit: I think it's, there is a lot of luck and timing and that's no discount to the skill, but it's just that there's way too many avenues to be crowded.

Right now. Yeah. And so I think the most you can achieve now is to be in a certain tier, but to be one of the best, I think is it's a completely elusive feet in today. I don't know that it can be replicated anymore.

Michael: I think that's an insightful comment. Okay. What do you got. I

Amit: liked the intersection of his life with other celebrities.

So friends with Michael Caine, roommates, even.

Michael: Yeah. And Terrance stamp, who is less well known, but he spent a lot of movies. You'd probably recognize a Misa movie called the limey. That was one of Soderbergh's early films. You know, him he's British. And as 80% of the charisma was Michael Kane is a little bit more stern.

But anyway, yeah. So. They were all roommates. I also found

Amit: it. And was that was, is that just pure coincidence?

Michael: I get home. No, I couldn't find any more information out on it because I heard Michael came talking about it in some random interview and it was like a toss off comment. It sounded like they were bachelors.

And this was the part I really liked about that. Also soon being roommates with Michael Caine is Michael Kane. There was all these gorgeous women hanging around Videla soon. I would've thought it had gone the other way. Michael Kane is the sort of young, handsome, British actor on the rocket ship of celebrity in Hollywood and fame and so forth yet.

But also as soon as the one that hanging around all the ladies, and that's one of the reasons Michael Ken

Amit: liked him. So. You know what I think I like about this and when this has come up, I think with other people that we've looked at, I liked the idea of friendships and paralleled success, public success following, because I don't think it's entirely just coincidentally.

That people who are well-known happened to be old friends and roommates, there are conversations that probably happen on that couch and over drinks that are consoling together or sharing dreams or lack of dreams. And that I think something happens that is

Michael: really important. Yeah. I like where you're going with that.

I forget who it was, but I think like Al gore was college roommates with Tommy Lee Jones. Yeah, something like that. I think that's right. I that's a similar sort of wine, right. To people who, I mean very different trajectories, but intersect before they've entered the world as sort of mature humans. Yeah. I hear you on that.

So are you, are you pointing to it like a mystical property or is it like the exact

Amit: opposite? I think it's something that's completely practice. I think there's a possibility of a coincidence that leads them into public celebrity or quote achievement.

Michael: Yeah, but it's not just competitiveness or is it, or maybe that's just one element of that.

I don't think we know there

could

Amit: be competitive as it could be complete dismissal and acceptance. I don't know, but I like to think there's something shared I'm idle nights on couches that leads to the rest of the whole.

Michael: Yeah. And bunk beds and Vidaza seven and Michael Caine and turn and stamp just hanging out some night when you know the ladies aren't there.

You do have to wonder what the chat was about. That's a good one. So do I add now we got flat fascists. I said something that I'm not sure anybody was trying really hard to be good at it. We have unique celebrity friendships and

Amit: early athletic. So we get mom's premonition. That's going to round

Michael: up the five mom's premonition.

All right, let's go to category two. Malcovich Malcovich. This is named after the movie being John Malcovich where you have the opportunity to travel into a portal and have a front row seat to somebody else's firsthand experiences at when is a moment that you would have wanted. Have been, VDL says sooner had a front row seat to his experiences.

Yeah. I'm

Amit: definitely going to take the front row seat. Part of this, not the necessarily one of Ben is I just want to know what that feels like, and I'm not talking about a specific event or an exact moment in time, but something hypothetical, which I'm a hundred percent certain, it happened over and over and over again.

And it is being in the presence of somebody either buying or using. A product that has your name on it when you are there and them having no idea who you are. I don't know if that's empowering God-like or a complete eraser of identity and like

Michael: what it is. So what you're imagining hypothetically is, would also assume it's standing in line at the grocery store and the person ahead is scanning their products and they happen to.

Fidelis as soon as shampoo and conditioner. Correct. And they're

Amit: not attached to it. They're not obsessing about it, but they are buying his name. Wow. This is specific to the fact that the product is his name. To me, it's different than just saying, okay, this is what I created and this, like, I'm seeing someone buy it and that's feel something.

I think the idea that my name is being lent to a product and people are using it and I am.

Michael: Yeah, it is sort of funny to imagine somebody buying Amit Kapoor candy at the grocery store buying massive

Amit: failure, we try

Michael: or I'll take the helmet support hamburger. Oh, God, that's a great question. Not shampoo Western. Do you seem like a, must like a barbecue master like that? Michael, I was born mustard. It does feel like mustard. Thank you. I'm going to take that as a compliment, you know, so I was having a conversation with a friend before this recording and I was telling him about our show and some of the reason episodes.

And I said, yeah, we're going to be doing also soon. And he said, that's a person. That's exactly. That's, that's the

Amit: Malcovich that I want to know because I'm not convinced. It feels great. It might feel great. It might be. Better than great, but I also think it could be existentially terrifying. I don't know

Michael: how, but I'm not sure you're getting at the same point.

I'm at where I wonder what percentage of people who have familiarity with Vidaza. No, that that is actually a name

Amit: and not a product. Yeah, that's true. I think our age category and above do, because he put himself in the commercials. Yeah. But younger than that, I mean, you look at like Warby Parker, right.

Which is a sort of similar brand name. And in fact kind of in that sort of style design sense, that's not a real person. That's a combination of two fictitious characters that the name came up, but who would really know that

Michael: dumb. All right. Can I go with my Malcovich Malcovich yeah, I started to watch a documentary.

I didn't get all the way through it about Vidaza soon. And I saw this quoted in several places that he drew inspiration from architecture. And he actually, there is this moment in this documentary I'm watching where he's like talking at the camera, saying the world was changing and I was seeing new forms and new buildings.

And I think that's really weird. I think that's really weird to walk around. And see new buildings and think I'm going to take inspiration here, right? Like there's something about the architecture that I want to apply to a woman's hairstyle. That connection is quite a leap. And so the Malcovich moment, I had a little bit hypothetical too, but I want to be in his head when he's walking around.

London or Paris or New York or wherever it is. And he sees a building and he says that make for a great hairstyle, because if that's true, that is genuine inspiration, right. People don't make those kinds of connections. Very easily or obviously

Amit: I like to add, this is kind of the opposite of that. Have you seen the Fred Astaire and ginger Rogers buildings and Prague?

No, there's two buildings. I don't know if they're office buildings or apartments. Mid-rise Ash, but the buildings are shaped and you went to see it and you get that description. You completely get it like Fred Astaire and ginger Rogers dancing, but they're just office buildings.

Michael: Wow. How about. Okay, let's move on category three.

Are there any divorces? If so, how many? And is there anything else we know as a, for

Amit: a, there are children, there was an adoption. There was tragedy.

Michael: There was a whole lot there. I it's about the same thing. First wife, uh, 1956 to 1958, which would have put them at how old. That's a good question. So he's born in 1928.

So 57 to 58. Is that what.

Amit: Yeah. Okay. Not super young for the air.

Michael: No. And the bit of the documentary that I did get through, what I saw is he actually. Cared quite a bit about her. And she runs off with a ski instructor and he blamed himself because he said I was too consumed with my work, which I really don't know what that means.

If you're cutting hair, what a horrible comment to make, frankly, hang on. How does that work? Like what does none of that? Let me, let me unpack this for a second. I think that today, if you have somebody who's consumed with. They have a lot of emails. They still have to answer at the end of the day. There's a lot of phone calls they have to make there's things that are, that are left unattended to that was probably true about running a salon, know a barbershop or whatever you called it in 1958, but consumed with your work.

I don't know. It seems like there's a point where the day is done and you go home and. You have dinner and dishes. I don't understand what consumed with your work means in this profession at

Amit: that time. No, I'm gonna, I'm not going to stand. I'm going to stand up.

Michael: Not in the

Amit: morning. If you own a business or a salon or you're creating or running something.

You're an

Michael: entrepreneur. Yeah. Yeah. You're like

Amit: the time spent on the actual craft is. Fraction of the total time required for all the other stuff. And it doesn't really matter whether the core of it is writing software

Michael: or bookkeeping for the hair salon,

Amit: whatever. There's so much just other

Michael: stuff. Okay.

Okay. You've convinced me. I just, I want a little bit more detail on what consumed with your work meant, but you're not, you're not

Amit: ready to apologize to 1958 at all. For what you've said. No, you

Michael: shouldn't, you don't have. Life number 2, 19 67, 19 80. I think this is the one where most of the family comes from.

So this is 13 years, four kids. One of them is adopted. Two of whom are estranged, one of who, as you mentioned, Tragically dies at a young age to it just

Amit: strange means no contact with the parents for a certain point

Michael: of view. There are troubled relationship and two who think mom and dad are great. One thing I did come across and it's hard to know what to make of this, but the adopted child does not have a lot of nice things to say about his father.

I read one article that had an interview with him, where he was extremely credible. Of his father's parenting style of being a disciplinarian and of how controlling he was. And then another daughter who I think went into acting and then deed in like 2003 or something. Am I remembering that right? Yeah.

Yeah. So there's some real tragedy there. And apparently the other two children are big fans of dad and don't have these sort of critical things to say to the media. So who knows limited information, but it does affect my interpretation of his life. Wife number 3, 19 83, 2. We don't know. It seems short by couldn't find any information about what happened, wife.

Number three, I did dig a little bit and then wife number 4, 19 92 until his death in 2012. So they were married for 20 years and that seems to be where he settled down into a lasting marriage. There's a lot of. Let's go onto question four net worth has now worth the death that I found was 200 million.

Okay. 200 million. Isn't really high number ordinarily.

Amit: How does that sit with you? That is generational wealth, you know, future generations don't have to worry about it.

Michael: And I don't think we've mentioned he came from a poor background. He came from nothing. Yeah.

Amit: But that's also like, could mess up your mind.

Well, oh yeah. I mean, it's, it makes sense because as wealth was not in the salons, as wealth was in the products that he lent his name to in the company that he had originally and eventually sold and became part of a few conglomerates, ultimately a Procter and gamble.

Michael: Yeah, but holy shit. Hundred million.

Yeah. Huge, tremendous amount of money. Yeah. Okay. Question five criminal record. Nothing that I found. Didn't find anything either. All right. Moving on. Question six Simpsons or Saturday night live. Did he ever have an appearance, a guest appearance on the Simpsons or did he ever host Saturday night live? I didn't find anything.

I didn't even find skits about. If you Google it also soon, Saturday night live a few random. David Spade's gets, will come up, but I listened to a few of them and never heard his name. And I actually have to say it made me have a little bit more confidence in our category. I'm not sure how much of a household name he is.

Amit: He is. Yeah, the product may. But

Michael: he, yeah, it sort of gets back to our talking about, so it's a, it's an interesting kind of celebrity here. I do think that some people don't realize it as a name. And I do think his peak fame seems to have happened before, you know, the age of insane paparazzi, correct.

Amit: He himself as a person, not as a product was a 60 seventies type of celebrity.

Michael: Right. Is that a good thing or a bad thing? Would you have rather been a celebrity in the sixties or seventies or do you have, I have a time period? I

Amit: don't think I can think clearly about it because I tend to just have nostalgia about it. That like, it was always better. Yeah. Before, when it was smaller and that history was always bigger fish in smaller pond.

And for whatever reason, that sits

Michael: better with me back when you could, you know, share a bunk bed with Michael Kane. Yeah. Let's actually

Amit: not dismiss that because I don't know when celebrity was a smaller pool and wouldn't exactly to our point that we made when you can be the best at something, or at least be in a certain top tier undisputably.

The best at something without like an Olympic performance to prove it, that doesn't exist. Now, you can't have that because there's just far too many and there's far too much information. So it seems to me like there's a better clarity in like having your achievement or sadness or whatever you want to call it recognized in sort of this pretty ubiquitous media

Michael: world.

Well, you know, now that I'm thinking about it, I actually think. What is interesting about his fame and celebrity is it's hard to imagine that when he's getting his start and when he's dedicating himself to this, and certainly it must've been attracting a fairly well-to-do clientele. It's hard to imagine him thinking I'm going to be famous.

This is something people don't usually achieve lasting fame for now, you've pointed out. He did have a claim for his hairstyles and he does wind up on the set of Roman Polanski movies, cutting the affair's hair and doing the haircuts of Jane Fonda and a lot of other famous celebrities in the, in the sixties and seventies.

But it doesn't seem like the kind of professional you say, I choose to be this because I want. That's different than people growing up in the eighties, nineties, two thousands thinking I want to go to Hollywood and be famous, or I want to go into politics and be famous where fame itself is part of the attractive force for why people dedicate their passions to an endeavor.

That seems to be almost happenstance. Yeah,

Amit: I agree. I mean, it's probably the equivalent would be being one of the few famous chefs at that point. Whereas now it's just like, you know, that if you are a chef attached to certain things, you may get celebrity

Michael: associated with it. What sort of makes you know, his achievements a little bit more extraordinary to have a profession that doesn't clearly have fame as a destination and get there.

Good for him.

Amit: To me, it kind of the present equivalent. My mind goes to like Neil deGrasse, Tyson, like a celebrity astrophysicist. There's nobody else. That's a celebrity

Michael: astrophysicist. Carl Sagan. Okay.

Amit: There's nobody else. That is a. Who is celebrity astrophysicist?

Michael: I think we've arrived at the second half of the show where we get into some of the inner life questions.

We're going to start with man in the mirror. Did he like his reflection in the. This seems like a yes, clearly

Amit: I don't, I don't think we need to spend a lot of time on this one. And he was a fashion icon and he was quite good looking very well dressed, exuded confidence. Yeah. I think that there's little

Michael: to dispute here.

All right. Next question. About self perception, outgoing message. Did he record the outgoing message on his voicemail or home answering machine or whatever it may have been? This is a question of how much

Amit: did. The way you sounded, but it's, to us, it is a indicator of really how much you kind of like yourself.

Yeah. And yeah, I think he did it, I think. Yes, he recorded the outgoing message. I mean, he did his own voiceovers in the commercial. Pretty good voice. I can't hear the hesitation. And the way he carried himself

Michael: vocally, I basically agree. There is an interesting wrinkle here though, as he's trying to build up his business, really in the late fifties, early sixties, he is trying to get the attention of a well-known hairdresser because he wants to train under somebody and he was turned away at first because of his Cockney accent.

So he hired. A vocal specialist to help him talk in a way that didn't make him sound like he was from a lower class. And that was a very deliberate choice. So he falls into that category of somebody who did deliberate work on his voice. I think he came to like it, but he actually. Consciously worked on it.

I assume he was probably ashamed of his humble origins and he was actually an orphan for awhile. He was so poor. They only think we've mentioned that. Yeah. There's kind of like a Gatsby

Amit: quality to the whole story in its entirety.

Michael: 100%. Okay. Next question regrets, public or private. We'll split it into two public.

I got at least three. What are you got? You got three, four public. Tell me all right. Here's what I've found. I did see an LA times article where he talked about some of his misgivings about being a strict parent where he said, yeah, maybe I was a little hard on them, but it was because I came from second.

Tough background. And you could sort of hear them talking out loud. Like maybe I didn't parent them the way I wanted to. And I can't remember if this was in reference to his adopted son or another child, but it's expressed, he said he had not gone into hairstyling. He was very drawn to architecture and he would've gone to school for it.

He talks about it so much. There almost seems like perhaps a regret. And then the last one is that he does seem to have serious misgivings about selling his company and the way his name was used with all of the subsequent sales to larger multinational conglomerate.

Amit: That was certainly a speculation of mine, but I didn't come across anything that, that he

Michael: commented on it.

He was, I actually commented on it. He actually was pissed off that he sold it, even though he made off very, very well. He did not like how his name was used. I think it was after Proctor and gamble took it over. And I don't know why other than they were profiting from the name as soon. And I think he had major misgivings about it.

Yeah. He had $200 million to keep him comfortable at night, but he didn't have major misgiving spots. Private. I don't know. There were so much on the sort of the public regrets that I didn't give this a lot of thought.

Amit: Yeah. And the, you know, what you said was essentially my list of private regrets only cause I didn't come across that information otherwise, but I think got

Michael: it.

Let's go on to question 10. Good dreams are bedrooms. And as you've put it before I'm at, this is really about the look in the. What are you seeing with darkness in the eye? What is that?

Amit: I didn't have an easy answer on this. I landed on good dreams because I think he's a, a visual artist who like sees beauty who creates beauty.

And I don't think that's a gimme, but I tend to believe their existential existence is a little better. He kept moving through marriages and tragedy. And so forth without what we could ever detect as any sort of breakdown or withdraw, there was this sort of devotion to charity, but it was always like, he was always kind of there.

And so I think I'm going to change my answer to bad dreams because there's a lot of reasons

Michael: that

Amit: there seems like a lot of things that should be buried that should be worried about. And if you don't want. And you keep, you know, essentially the same life. I just, I don't know when that comes up.

Michael: I, for basically that reason had a fairly confident, bad dreams answer here.

He and his brother are thrust into an orphanage and he's estranged from his mother at a young age. Then he's battling fascists in the neighborhoods around London. Then he goes to war and fights for our country and felt persecuted as a Jewish man or as a Jewish boy in mid century London. And then. As he achieves success and as his star rises, I sense a lot of bravado.

I sense, a great smile. I sense a sort of earnest attempt to try and look really, really good, which has to come with the nature of the profession. But especially the interviews I saw, the little bit of this documentary I saw there was a real intensity to. His own public perception or how he was perceived.

It seemed to me that felt like a compensation for some reason. Dark stuff underneath. So I landed pretty firmly on bad dreams. Okay. Question 11 cocktail, coffee or cannabis, which of these would you want to sit down and do with it also soon? And then really this question is trying to get at how you might unlock different parts of this person's personality and what it would be like to hang out with them under the influence of mud drink, coffee or cannabis.

Amit: Several cocktails. I want to get wasted with fiddle. You know, I had the

Michael: same thing I had to say.

Amit: I think there are stories. I think there are things he's seen. I think being a fashion icon of that era, there's a lot of fun properties. Just trade service fund. Yeah,

Michael: totally. Yeah. Yeah, no, that's, I think that's really right.

I mean, he does talk about having a very active social life and he was hanging out with a lot of celebrity. And it was good wording around and Hollywood and New York and London and Paris, and really sought after. And people wanted to hang out with him. This guy had had a fun life for several decades, and then as that's winding down, he is very comfortable financially.

So I want to get him wasted and hear what comes out.

Amit: I've had this, this projection of early fashion icons that they have like inability to kind of turn it off, turn off, whatever. Critical function of the brain is and be like, this is beauty. This is fun. Let's just live for tonight. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. I kind of want to feed off that for a little bit.

Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. I like where we're going with all of this. The VanDerBeek named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said in varsity blues. I don't want your life Amit. We're here. Do you want me to also since life

Amit: not going to give you the answer immediately and you know what you and I have said, we're really trying to let go of coming up with an answer until this.

Exactly. Because we want the rest of the show to shape

Michael: the answer a hundred percent. I don't have an answer yet

Amit: either. Yeah. So before I give you the yes or no, I'm just going to talk you through some of the thoughts. So I love the rags to riches element, the bootstraps of it, the complete change of life.

I love the variety part of it from. The war to intersection with different public figures to let's just call it an artist to businessmen, to mogul, to all these things. I love

Michael: that. That's an extraordinary life in a lot of different ways. Yeah. Yeah.

Amit: I'm okay. With the age, at which he died. I think it was 84.

Not too young, not dragged out and misery. I like so much of it. I like so much of the roundness of the life, much. Like I like the roundness of the Bob haircut, but I'm going to land on. I don't want that also seems life. The home life just worries me too much. I mean, for marriages is a lot of strange children is a lot, certainly death of a child who was, I mean, she wasn't a child, but she was in her thirties

Michael: and that's an adult child.

That child is the death of that

Amit: is a lot. Yeah. That is a internal rollercoaster. That seems more. To me, like more dips than ups and perhaps the rest of the life was. I wouldn't say avoiding mat, but was justification for a lot of that. And again, who knows, but that's what I'm seeing and that's what I'm hearing.

And I wouldn't want that. I wouldn't want that possibility of that internal life, even for all the other things.

Michael: Wow. I think I'm probably right there with you. I was sort of a lean, no heading into this. I do wish I had a little bit more info on the two children who think dad is great. Are they just doing that for show or did they have a fundamentally different relationship or more forgiveness?

Was there heart to hearts later in his life? If he did have regrets about how he parented his Sheldon, did he ever. Do any work on that or had the ship sails? Because I do think it's not an uncommon thing, certainly for men of the 20th century, but fathers, mothers, whatever, to put a tremendous amount of focus on their career at a certain stage of life and rationalize a certain style of parenting and then come to an understanding later.

Shit, maybe that didn't go so well. Can I make amends now? I wish I had a little more information there based on the available information. I am a, now I have one other funny question to ask you that I don't know if this is going to swing me or not, but it's been on my mind if part of the way we get at the question, was this a good life or not?

If part of the way we address that is by. Taking a good look at how meaningful our relationships are. He cut a lot of people's hair and the conversations you have with someone when they are in the chair and you're cutting their hair. I don't have to remember this now because I shaved my head. But once upon a time, you know, you have a certain kind of conversation.

With the person cutting your hair. And I can't figure out if it's good or not, it's contained, which is sort of interesting. You do wind up talking about your life, which is sort of interesting. You're also looking in the mirror the whole time, literally looking in the mirror the whole time. When else in life are you.

Carrying on a conversation while looking in the mirror the whole time. Does that venue for conversation? Is that a special thing or is it a superficial thing? I haven't made up my mind about that diamond to go

Amit: with special thing. It's a speculation, but I think it's, you have to look yourself in the eye, even if it's through reflective glass and you're going to say different things than what you're saying to somebody when you can't see yourself, they, yeah, a lot of.

Connection just happens by virtue of that transaction or that thing happening. You experience a lot of connection that

Michael: way, maybe even insight, right? I mean, I think you can, especially, if you want to, you can get somebody talking about themselves in a way that they don't in any other context. And I do wonder if part of what might make for a good life is an exploration of humanity and all its complexity.

And the opportunity to talk with a lot of people from interesting backgrounds and in his case, a lot of celebrities and politicians I'm sure. And well-to-do people, it may be ultimately very shallow, but it does seem like maybe that is kind of great and special and unique, and it might make for a more worthwhile

Amit: life.

But you're implying here as is maybe all hairdressing. I have like a, and we're not saying that they are happy or whatever, but they experience a level of connection that very few other people in other professions necessarily

Michael: have that's right. And his happened to be with, you know, The rich and famous.

There's a Robin leach similarity here. So I may be Elaine. Yes, actually, I think I might've flipped just ever so slightly the troubled relationship with children. And the thing is, I don't think I like him all that much,

Amit: but when you want to just, you, you want the life of a non celebrity hairdresser.

Michael: It may be, maybe I do also sort of like.

Flavor of fame where you're not recognizable on the streets, but where you are at the upper tier of celebrity, I may, I think there's nobody on the planet and the 1960s, seventies and eighties, who wouldn't be very happy when, but also soon walked in the room and people wanted to see him. But then there's also a ton of other people on the street who don't recognize them.

So there's still some protection of privacy, which is the. Well known celebrities would probably agree. Is it genuine, awful, true sacrifice that comes with that level of fame. So I sort of like that too. I don't know that I. His life in terms of his personality. And I do see a darkness in the eyes, but I almost want to have a Malcovich kind of front row seat to his experiences because I think it actually is really fucking interesting.

And I think you might actually be able to dig in on people in a way that most people don't necessarily get the opportunity to do so in life. So got into my head. I think I'm going to lean. Yes. I'll take your life. We'd also. Andrew conditioner. All right. I think we've arrived. We are at the end of our show, the pearly gates Ahmet.

You are in also soon, you have died and you have gone to St. Peter, and you have your opportunity to make your.

Amit: Um, Vidaza soon. It's similarly, you can look at a couple of tenets of my life and what I've done. You can laugh and you can joke, but I make people look good. And when I do that, I'm not doing it for their observers.

I'm doing it for their self. I want people to look good, so they feel good. And I believe. Infinite capability in that my profession was about that. Even the products that I let my name to was about that my political causes, the war I fought in was also about not limiting in individuals potentially. I lived a life that was about infinite possibility for everyone, that there is a way out.

There is a way to feeling good for everybody that can be through hair that can be through. Parents that can be through liberation in a society that you live in. That's the life I led that's was my purpose lemon.

Michael: Thank you for listening to this episode of famous. If you're enjoying our show, please go to apple podcasts to rate and review.

You can sign up for our mailing list@famousandgravy.com and you can follow us on Twitter at famous and gravy. Our show was co-created by Amik Kapoor and may Mike law's born mixing mastering and sound design by Morgan. Graphic design by Brandon Burke and original music by Kevin Strang. Thank you again for listening and hope to see you next time.