007 Wiry Gadfly Transcript (Ross Perot)

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Michael: This man died in 2019 at the age 89, he was an Eagle scout and a Navy officer out of Annapolis.

Scott: Yay. Politician of sorts, or on the joint chiefs of staff, nothing is coming to mind

Michael: in 1969. He became a kind of folk hero with a quixotic attempt to fly medicine and food to American prisoners of war in north Vietnam.

Scott: Not John McCain.

Michael: No, but you're kind of in the right direction.

Scott: He was probably trying to fly food to John McCain.

Michael: In 1979, he staged a commando raid that he asserted had freed two of his employees and thousands of criminals and political prisoners from captivity in revolutionary Iran.

Scott: Bad guy. I missed that part of history class.

I don't know.

Michael: He was a gadfly who made a fortune in computer services,

Scott: Michael Dell, a lot.

Michael: He is your sense for all people is terrible.

Scott: Give me some more.

Michael: All right. He had a squeaky nasal country, boy Twain and ears that stuck out like Alfred E Newman's on a mad magazine.

Scott: Oh. Oh, okay. Okay. Hold on. It is Roxboro

Michael: today. Stead celebrity is Ross Perot.

H Ross: Number one, I will not run is either a Democrat or Republican because I will not sell out to anybody, but to the American. And I will

sell out to them. They said 53,000 signatures, just

regular folks. Can't do that.

You know, in all fairness to them, you did, you did over 200,000.

Michael: Welcome to famous and gravy. My name is Michael osborne

Amit: and my name is Amit Kapoor.

Michael: And on this show, we go through a series of categories about multiple aspects of a famous person's life. We want to figure out the things in life that we would actually desire and ultimately answer a big question. What I want that life today, H Ross Perot died 2019 age 89.

Category one grading the first line of their obituary, Ross Perot, the wiring, Texas gadfly, who made a fortune in computer services, amazed the nation with audacious para military missions to Vietnam and Iran and ran for president in 1992 and 1996 with populist talk of restoring Norman Rockwell's America died on Tuesday at his home in Dallas Amit.

Gadfly GAD fly. Yeah. I had to actually look at that. What does that mean? I thought this might come up a copy. Pasted the dictionary definition, an annoying person, especially one who provokes others into action by criticism, such as the writer of the obituary. Yeah. Well fucking man. I mean, like, I, I think it's.

An

insult that is, I mean, to follow wirey with it. Clearly there's some sharp edges there.

I mean, this is like right after he died, you know, like to call him a wirey gadfly that leaped

Amit: out to me, there were, there was an angry New York times in 2019. I bet, I guess that's right.

Michael: Certainly the times has its political leanings and there I'm sure we'll get into it.

There's a lot of pieces that came out about Perot as being a 4runner to Trump, you know, as being a sort of populist, unfiltered billionaire. And you know, some of those think pieces are kind of obvious, but do you think that's why they were felt confident calling him a wire, a gadfly in his obituary?

Amit: That would be my suspicion.

What about what else left up so many, just loaded words, audacious.

Michael: What about the reference to Norman Rockwell? I mean, I think he was explicit about it if he did have Norman Rockwell paintings, I mean, but he didn't stand

Amit: behind a podium at a rally and say, I'm going to restore Norman Rockwell's

Michael: America.

I don't think so. But I do think in the press, he would talk about how much that imagery spoke to health. So to reference a specific artist, I mean, Norman Rockwell obviously has a. A very well-defined sort of cultural presence in terms of what he represented. And so I don't think it's inaccurate, but I don't know.

There was something about the like explicit reference to him in the obituary that also leaped out

Amit: to Mac, but they were also essentially just calling him a lame person. By saying that he wanted to restore Norman Rockwell's America in this sort of pre civil rights. Pre-independence pre free love world.

Michael: I mean, to lump in the sort of message of this guy with an artist. I don't know that that's a kind of, I don't know if it's a ballsy move or a lazy move in the.

Amit: I think it's a little, it's a little bit ballsy. Dan's very opinionated to do that.

Michael: You use the word opinionated several times here. Do you take issue with the opinionated nature of this first line of the obituary?

I

Amit: think I do. I'm not saying that I know Victoria can be entirely neutral. Neutrality is impossible when just written from a third person perspective, but you've got to try to be neutral.

Michael: Do you mean critical? I mean, opinionated, I think. Like are the, there there's such a thing as offering.

Amit: Oh, I see what you're saying.

Like it's okay to, to celebrate somebody, but

Michael: yeah, it a bit just sort of like implicitly criticized.

Amit: I mean, yeah. So maybe you're right. I think I am saying critical. Yeah. I think I am saying critical.

Michael: Does that affect how you would grade this? Is it wrong to have a critical first land of an obituary? Yeah.

Yes, it is wrong. Yeah, it is. As I, as I was saying that I was thinking the same

Amit: thing. Yeah. I think it's wrong. So I'm going to give it a low score. I'm going to give it a three.

Michael: It's not inaccurate. Exactly. I mean, the word gadfly, annoying person, he does. We'll get to this later, but these got some, not exactly annoying qualities, but there is something, you know, he is an irritant or seems like an erotic.

You know, amazed the nation with these audacious paramilitary missions. I mean, that kind of right. The fact that they lumped his run for president in 92 and 96 into the same clause, kind of bugs me because 92 Ross Perot is so different than 96, the significance of the campaign. But I'm with you. I that somehow this doesn't call it.

Honor M enough, whether you like it or not. And I do think the hint at criticism really does knock the score. This one down. I agree with your three. Okay. Let's move on. Right? Two threes category to five things. I love about you in this category. I'm at, and I worked together to try and get at five. Things that we love about this person.

Why we're talking about them in the first place you want to start?

Amit: Yeah. So his first job, I forget how young he was, but tremendously young, he delivered newspapers. On horseback. I saw that and I thought that was great because it's, I mean, it's, it's such a tremendous story for, for somebody to end up a billionaire.

But the image I got in my head was his son owned the Dallas Mavericks. Do you remember that? I forgot that. So prior to mark Cuban, uh, it was Perot Jr. That owned the Mavericks, right?

Michael: Yeah. I forgot

Amit: about that. Whose Mavericks don't really like use this as a mascot, but there are animal models. It was a horse.

And so I like ultimately drew that parallel that some 60 or 70 years later after he was delivering things on horseback, his son owned a giant basketball franchise who was symbolized by a horse.

Michael: That's awesome. That's a clear number one. All right. You got a couple of. Do you know who Richard Crenna is? Uh, I think that's how you say his name?

C R E N N a. I know him from the Rambo movies. So he played Rambo's commander. Have you watched those movies?

Amit: Not a secretary now

Michael: first. Holds up first blood is pretty bad-ass and as Rambo is running around the woods, hiding from the cops and getting weapons and being resourceful in the wilderness. And you know, he's, he's this Vietnam vet there's, uh, all kinds of law enforcement called them to try and get him.

And then they ended up calling his commander from Vietnam. This guy, Richard Crenna. If you heard his voice, you might recognize him and come here to rescue Rambo from you. I came here to rescue you from him. He played Ross borough in the made for TV movie on wings of Eagles. This was actually adapted from a Ken Follett novelty.

Now can follow those. Yeah. I wrote pillars of the earth. He wrote the true story of this paramilitary adventure to rescue two IBM employees. Uh, no, I'm sorry. Not CDs in place. Thank you from

Amit: Iran

Michael: from revolutionary Iran. And there are some people who dispute the Ross Perot account of this paramilitary adventure, but I'm really happy to learn that Richard Crenna played Rosborough in this movie.

My name is Ross Perot. I'm a businessman here in Dallas.

Amit: So that's my number two. Okay. I'll take number three. Are you familiar with Parkinson's law as an economic principle? No. So it's, I remember we learned it. I don't know if I learned it independently or in school, but the theory is basically that the amount of work it takes to do a task expands into the amount of time you give the.

So basically there's a 40 hour work week. And if you have a 20 hour job, you have a 40 hour job. If you have a 60 hour job, you have a 40 hour job because there's a 40 hour workweek interests. So Pearl had a few instances of not kind of believing in this at all.

Michael: I understand this you'll like expand or shrink your workload to fill into the hours, allotted whatever the job may be.

Correct. I see Parkinson's law. That's interesting. No relationship to. Disease,

Amit: not at all. And I'm sure I didn't even describe the law very correctly, but that's my recollection of it. Okay. So there's two pros stories that oppose this law. One is when he was at IBM, he met his entire like sales quota for the year in three weeks.

And he was like, well, now what do I do? And then there was a second one after he started EDS his company that ultimately made him a. One of their first clients. I said it would take two years to complete the install, a better computer network. And they did it in something like eight weeks, total Parkinson's law out the window.

Yeah. So he seemed to sort of live by that of challenging. Those sorts of norms and expectations strictly in, in, in the business sense. So let's talk about it just in the business sense, but challenging those norms and expectations just with the vengeance of what's

Michael: possible. Yeah. Yeah. I want to pause for a second.

You grew up in Dallas, you and I are similar age. 92 is kind of the first presidential election that I had in. Sort of semi formed the consciousness of, I am curious to know if you growing up in Dallas or aware of Ross Perot prior to 1992. Yeah,

Amit: absolutely. Yeah, we would do elementary school, like field trips to EDS.

Heads-up. Like future museum. It was like a mini, like one floor Epcot center that we take field trips. I'm like third grade and it was all funded by EDS and pro. And I also remember this very clearly in third grade for Halloween. If it's like you wore a Halloween costume to work

Michael: and there was a girl, you mean school?

What did I say?

Amit: Or school was work, Michael,

Michael: I guess is

Amit: the first generation. Um, yeah, so a girl in my class, I remember she wore like a tie and carried a briefcase and I asked her who she was and she said, Ross Perot. Wow.

Michael: Yeah. Wow. So he was that big of a fig. In the Dallas

Amit: scene. I mean, yeah. As much as like Jerry Jones is today or something, I was certainly aware of who he

Michael: was.

Yeah. To get back to the category, five things I love about you. We have not mentioned some of the more obvious things. The rags to riches story is pretty astonishing. It's not like he came from extreme poverty. So he grew up in Texarkana and depression era. So Depression-era Texarkana. I could not have been doing that well, but it was also, you know, when you sort of read the accounts, it's clear, he's not necessarily like in deep poverty about to starve these somewhere.

Middle ish, whatever that means. And Depression-era the Texarkana to becoming the 167th wealthiest man and in 2019 or whatever in America that rags to riches story is pretty great. It's hard to get your head around. This is the question I have for you is that's something that we should include on the five things I love about you.

Cause I'd love a rags to riches. The scale of this one is like no other, if you love a rags to riches story,

Amit: then yes. Yeah. Everyone loves a rags-to-riches

Michael: story. Well, it depends a little bit on the nature of how you want to achieve those Richards. When I say rags to riches, I guess I am sort of invoking, you know, kind of dedication to a certain work ethic and a sticktuitiveness and that kind of stuff.

And, you know, Levi IBM to start his own company and it didn't go all that well. And then it eventually went really well. And. The rest is history, accumulates, tremendous of wealth over the

Amit: course of a lifetime. So MC Hammer's rags to riches, to rags, doesn't quite resonate as much with

Michael: you was not expecting you to bring up a hammer.

How could

Amit: you not bring up hammer in the conversation? Our conversation is essentially about 1992. That's a good point. It's a

Michael: damn good point. Yeah. I don't know. I think it actually. A common story. So I don't know that I'm enamored with it. So I actually would not nominate that as something I'd put on my five things.

I love about you, because I want to find things to be, I love about you to be really unique to the person. This

Amit: was for a work ethic. You said you're enamored by those stories. If there's sort of an underlying work ethic

Michael: behind it. Yeah. There's a part of me that wants to believe in the American dream.

Sure. No matter how. I didn't hang on. I want to couch this because I do think that that is a story that this culture tells that has all kinds of problems to it. That it's not nearly as achievable as we like to think it could be, but I've talked it out. I don't want to put this on my list that I don't understand.

'cause the only thing that makes it fundamentally unique as a rags to riches story. The thing that distinguishes it from MC hammer and countless others is the scale is how much wealth was achieved here. That's nice. It's a decent story. It's not part of the five things I love about Ross Perot. I've got a slightly different one

Amit: and it bring in a new

Michael: number four.

I looked this up. First billionaire presidential candidate. Really? Yes. Even if you go back into history and account for the present value of present value, there are some people who come close, John Kennedy comes close. Andrew Jackson actually comes kind of close. I mean, they're in the multi hundreds of millions of dollars, but the first one who crosses the, you are Silicon valley.

You know what that means in Spanish three,

the first one who crosses the threshold is Ross Perot kind of an unlikely figure to do so. And there's a case to be made that he created a kind of art type. And we've seen this, not just with Trump, but there's, you know, Michael Bloomberg and Tom Stier. And there's another one in there. John Carrick, wasn't quite on that category.

No, he was not on that list. Bloomberg blows everybody out of the water in terms of wealthiest he's at like 54 billion or something like that. But the sort of billionaire presidential candidate, I think Ross Perot kind of creates

Amit: it. And so what, what you love about it was just that the pioneering aspect

Michael: of it, I think he just needs to like, w you got to give credit where credit's due.

You know, that there is somebody who has crossed that wealth threshold and then says, I want to run the nation. It seems like an art type that we have. Thinking about and wrestling with for better words ever since. And I'm impressed by that, I suppose. So it's more that I'm just impressed in the turn to, you know, I care enough about this, that I'm going to try and not necessarily infants.

Right. But just like hop into the presidential race. That's that's that's an incredible achievement. Yeah. Fair enough.

Amit: What do you got for five? I've got my five. Do you have a strong five? Otherwise I can go with my five. I wrote

Michael: crazed look in the.

Amit: Now let's save that for later. There's no sort of no love.

I mean, there can be, I guess I know I'm not the, I'm not the judge. I just want to say it's true. You'd love for the crazy

Michael: look. I love his grace. Look in the eye, just something in the eye. That's like, wow. Where's he coming

Amit: from? The one I was going to choose was actually, it's something you, you sent me, you shared with me the other day was the inspiration story.

About when he was working at IBM and reading reader's digest and came across a Nathaniel Hawthorne quote, the quote being the massive men lead lives of quiet desperation. And, you know, in the incredibly compacted version of the story that lit off a light bulb and needs said, why the hell am I working for somebody else?

I'm going to go start my own company. And I like the possibility that that quote was that influenced. In his life, because I love that quote. I've think I've made that quote a screensaver before

Michael: the mass of men lead lives of quiet desperation. Yeah. I love that one. I think that's a great number five quiet desperation.

That's really evocative. Yeah. Well, shall we go on category three? Malcovich Malcovich this category is named after the movie being John Malcovich in which people take a portal into John Malcovich his mom. Where they can have a front row seat to his experiences. Malcovich

Amit: Malcovich

Michael: Malcovich Malcovich

Amit: Malcovich.

How about, what do you like here? I chose sometime, I think it was in 1984. Perot bought a copy of the Magna Carta. I saw that. That's great. I think that's hilarious. And it was one of the only copies to ever leave the United Kingdom or the only. So I just want to be behind the eyes and in the soul to. COE what that power feels like.

If it feels like anything, it's a good one.

Michael: I have two, I'll tell you the one. I'm not gonna go at the one I'm not going to go with was when his idiot employees were afraid from around like that story. That saga is incredible. And the moment that they are home, it's pretty exciting. I really like it. When you build the scene of like being in a grocery store somewhere.

I don't think Ross Perot shop for his own groceries, but there must have been a moment at some point when he saw somebody pull out an iPhone and use it. And I want to know if he. I thought back to the investment he made in next, which was Steve jobs, his company, right after Steve jobs left apple the first time, both jobs before he died.

And, uh, Tim cook after Perot died, say that apple never would have been what it became without Ross Perot's investment in next. And it's sort of like ability to keep Steve jobs. Career float. He was essentially his benefactor. Exactly. I just wonder if he looked at this device that is so totally transformative and said, you know, I haven't had a hand in that, you

Amit: know, or even, I mean, he, he lived until 2019.

He would have seen the several iterations that came after that. Yeah. I was

Michael: actually, when I was trying to think about my Malcovich moment, I was trying to think what model of iPhone I should have gone with. And, um, I think the very first time you see an iPhone, the very first time I saw an iPhone. Pretty goddamn impressive what this thing is.

I mean, it's sort of like, wow, that is a lot of power somebody carries around in their pocket. And I do think it's a, it's a generational technology that Perot had a kind of small piece in it. I wonder

Amit: if this is suspect like a sort of God-like king Midas. Yeah, I think

Michael: a little bit, I mean, he's got, you know, obviously a long history of working in computer services from IBM to EDS to Ms.

Journey had GM. And then what was the last company? Perot enterprises or something? Yeah. Pro systems systems, I think. But yeah. See, I don't think he needs that kind of validation in terms of, cause by the time the iPhone comes out, you know, he's in late cell. Eighties, right. He's he's getting up there in age, I guess.

That's why I wanted it to be a Malcovich moment. I want to know kind of what's going through his mind. He is looking at just how far technology has come and the fact that he has. Behind the scenes steered that a little bit. I'm sure that is one of thousand different moments that Ross Perot could have had looking at the way the world runs that he had it behind the stage, hands in shaping, but that one in particular left out at me.

I also just liked the Steve jobs connection. Yeah, that's pretty cool. Yeah. All right. Category four. How many marriages also, how many kids and is there anything public about these relationships? One wife 63 years. And if my math is correct married, age 26. Yeah. That's what I saw too. It's pretty good. I know I romanticize this a lot when there's a sort of like single marriage that lasts north of 50 years, but.

That's

Amit: great.

Michael: as, at the time of this recording, she was still with us. Yeah. And five kids. I really looked around for negative press. Did the kids have anything bad to say about mom or dad? I couldn't find anything. I think that the wealth would buffer the kind of negative press, right? Like if they actually had bad things to say about dad, I doubt we would ever really know that.

But based on the available information, it seems like everybody had a pretty good opinion today. Family life gets a high score for me here.

Amit: Yeah, it seems that way too. And one of the kids became his own sort of business mogul and himself. You're talking about Russ Jr. Yeah. Yeah.

Michael: You see his, one of his claim to fames about the

Amit: helicopter.

Yeah. First around the world. Helicopter pilot. That sounds awful. Oh my God. Hell, have you ever been in. Yeah. Once in Alaska, we went like four miles. I think they're terrifying.

Michael: Those things go down, man. I'm not afraid of flying, but helicopters around the

Amit: world at the view though.

Michael: Yeah, no, it's cool. It's beautiful.

And I'm glad somebody I'm glad Ross Jr. Went around the world in a helicopter, but just the thought of that did not excite me. Alright, category five, net worth I Assume you found the same number. I did 4.1

billion.

Amit: Yeah. And I think that's where you got the number 1 67 from 867th richest at time of death.

Yeah.

So I want to talk about this for a second. Yeah, I got this friend has got this theory that one of the big problems in America is that we cannot distinguish between a million and half. This is a good analogy. How long do you think 1 million seconds is a week? Pretty close. 11.6 days. Okay. How about a billion seconds?

400 years. Well, no, 31

years. 40 years. Yes. If I didn't carry this areas, the

Michael: 30 years I'm impressed with the math you did in your head, but you kind of an amazing number. I think that that's an incredible illustration. A million is 11 days. A billion is almost 32 years. Yeah, there, I think are a lot of people in the world who cannot tell the difference between a millionaire and a billionaire.

And you multiply that by four and for what it's worth, I did the math on that. That would be 138.2, two years. I don't know.

Amit: That's too much,

Michael: Yeah whether it's too much or not feels like judgment where I struggle with it is it's unimaginable to me. I feel like I could imagine what it's like to have. $10 million.

I don't have $10 million today. Maybe I'll get there. I could probably even imagine what it's like to have $50 million. That's a lot of money. That's more money than I need. But you know, I also am very familiar with the, from not phenomenon of you get a climatized to whatever state you're in. So if you have $50 million, then you've got buddies who have 30 million and 90 million, right.

And you float in those social circles and that the culture changes with each new tier you reach. $4.1 billion is unimaginable. I have no idea. It feels like a number that would fuck with your head, but obviously you can't fuck with your head day

in, day out.

Amit: It's just a number that can distort reality.

Michael: Is there a threshold at which that reality distortion really sets in for you?

Or is there a ballpark

number that I think for myself? Yeah, or even

for kind of anybody? I mean, I'm sure.

Amit: If I'm saying, I'm saying a hundred mil. Yeah, but I don't know. I mean, you can't fault someone for earning what they're capable of earning, especially if they did it through ethical means and created value, added goods or services,

Michael: they work in the system and they play by those rules and they succeed.

And so when you said it's too much, it feels like too much to me, but it's too,

Amit: it's too much insurance of desirability too much to wrap your head around. It's too much like Spider-Man responsibility, you know? Yeah. Yeah. So I don't like it. I, I don't like the idea of how. That much money. It's not a judgment about anybody that has that much money.

I'm just saying in terms of what it seems like to me in terms of quality of life perception, sanity, privacy,

it seems like too much and ability to engage. Meaningful relationships with all kinds of people, not just family members, but new friends or strangers. I mean, it's somewhere in that between 10 million and 400 million, I believe you begin to cut yourself off from your ability, which is sort of interesting for a guy who ran for president and got pretty goddamn far.

I mean, you know, to go back to the five things I love about you, the billionaire type. I mean, obviously this is, we value this people with like extraordinary wealth are without thinking about. Admirable to the general populous. Right. They wouldn't be running for president with success if they weren't, but then to actually imagine what it's like to be inside that skin and have that the minute I go in that direction, I don't know.

I'm less attracted to it. Yeah.

When we went to lunch earlier, I had the enchiladas from the lunch menu.

Michael: I remember.

Amit: And they were $9.49

Michael: Yeah

Amit: Do you remember

what else I was considering having

Michael: Yeeeeah soup and salad, right?

Amit: Yeah. Do you know how much the soup and salad was?

Michael: No.

Amit: 1299 that aided in my decision process.

That difference of $3 and 50 cents.

Michael: Yeah

Amit: And if I had

4.1 billion in the bank, I would have difficulty making those decisions.

Michael: It fucks with your head. It's got to fuck with that. That

is the whole point.

That is the whole point. Well, Category six Simpsons, Saturday night live or Hollywood walk of fame. This category is a measure of how famous a person is.

We include both guest appearances on SNL or the Simpsons as well as impersonations. Let's

Amit: take the easy one, the Hollywood walk of fame. I don't think he's on there. He didn't get it for being played

Michael: by that guy. It's not what I thought you were going to say was the easy one. The easy one is data

Amit: carved.

Now I said the easy one to eliminate. Oh yeah, yeah.

Michael: Oh, well the easy one to notch is Dana Carter. Yeah, absolutely. And it's very memorable for people that are actually, I went back and watched it. It holds up like it is still funny. You people don't quit now. Do you now, is this the way we're going to play the game here?

Are you guys going to keep asking these asinine questions? So you see some dirty. Ross Perot is very, what's the word I'm looking for?

Thank you, Ross. Perot's I already can't find no. He's he's very impersonable. Like he is a cartoon character. It seems like right. He was just ripe for impersonation. I asked you earlier, if you have. Any memory of parole going up? I am confident that I encountered the Dana Carvey impersonation of Rosborough before I ever heard the actual man speak.

It's almost like the Yogi Berra thing where I knew about Yogi bear, the cartoon character. Before I knew that there was a baseball player,

Amit: SNL does do that though. It conflates your memory of. What was the actual person's voice or what was their SNL voice? Great

Michael: impersonations do that period. What's interesting about SNL that way is that it plays into the narrative of that person, how they're defined.

I mean, it is actually a sort of forced to

Amit: be reckoned with. Yeah. Because it's not really impersonations, otherwise tend to just be impersonations of past actions, but it tends to almost be foreshadowing of your future or even having an effect on your present.

Michael: Should we talk about the 92 presidential election at all?

I kind of don't

Amit: want to, I mean, if you have something to say about it that fits in the category of the Simpsons

SNL.

Michael: Well, yes, I think I do. I think that 50 years from now, If Ross Perot is remembered at all, it will be as a presidential candidate. It won't be for the fact that he was a billionaire, most billionaires are not household names.

It won't be for the fact that he ran these paramilitary adventures to north Vietnam in 69 and then in Iran and 79, I think.

Amit: Yeah, you're absolutely right. So, you know, in the same way that Leonard MIMO is synonymous with Spock,

Michael: Ross Perot is kind of synonymous with presidential. candidate Right. Like, this is the thing that he is most famous.

They use the reason we're talking to

this

Amit: significant third party presidential candidate

Michael: Right? Exactly. And so there's a part of me that, you know, yes, this is the place to talk about the campaign, because this is the reason he's famous. And what I found and I'm sure you found the same thing is that it is debated what his impact on that election was that Nate silver and 538 will say he didn't sway the election.

Because if you look at the exit polls, people who would have voted for Clinton or would have voted for Bush were equally distributed across the Perot

Amit: you've

made our podcast very boring Michael

Michael: Have I

Amit: Yeah,

Michael: I feel like we have to cover this shit

Amit: No

I'm kidding. Just keep going. You lost my attention, but the listeners they're still listening.

Michael: No, you actually pulled out your fucking phone

Amit: I was silencing it cause I didn't want it to be picked up

Michael: What a Dick move.

Amit: I feel

Michael: like is this important? I was trying to get through it real. You don't have to ask my permission

Amit: boring. It's not. Will you started by saying one of your concerns was that you didn't want this episode to be politicized.

Michael: I don't. What I was going to say is that he will be debated his impact on history and on the 92 presidential campaign will be debated for forevermore. I think that those, what ifs in history are really interesting. That's what he's going to be remembered for. That's what he's famous for. How do we feel about that?

How do you feel about. That that's what he's going to be remembered

Amit: for. How does that sit with you? I mean, that's, he sort of shows that we're not Vander beaking, this I'm not saying at all that that's what I want, but yeah, it's sort of, he chose it.

Michael: Okay. Maybe this comes up later in the regrets category.

Amit: Yeah. I see where you're going. I think you are into to regrets territory a

Michael: little bit. We'll hold off on it. Just to round out the category. He was never on the one.

Amit: Never in any form.

Michael: Uh, he was impersonated on the Simpsons and a couple of Treehouse of horror episodes, but he himself never voiced that the Ross Perot character on the Simpsons.

All right, move on. Category seven. Over-under still one of my favorite categories. It is a good category. So in this category, we looked at the life expectancy of the year when the person was born to see if they beat the house on. And how gracefully Rosborough was born in 1930. The life expectancy for men in 1930 was 58.

He died at 89, 31 years, way over, crushed it, crushed it. Well done. Ross grand slam. All right, let's pause for a second for a word from our sponsor.

Amit: So Michael, we each do our own set of research. As we prepare for these shows, I notice you always reference the biography and you have like a payback biography with you as we come to studio. So I am to assume that you're getting these from. Online mega Mart. Is that

Michael: correct? No, not at all. The first thing I do when you and I decide on our next dead celebrity, is I go and find out, is there a biography on this person and is that biography available at half price book?

There's a store right up the street from me, an actual brick and mortar store where I can walk in. When I go there to find out, do they have a biography for our next dead celebrity, but I always wind up picking up more books. I go through with the children's section, I'm a sucker for a good page Turner.

So I go through the murder mystery section. They also have rare collections. They have signs stuff. I don't know how this sounds to you, but I actually, I love the smell of half-price books. It's got that old books.

Amit: I do. I like that too. Not a great smell. Yeah. And you know what? Half price books is currently celebrating 50 years of buying and selling books, movies, and music.

There are more than 120 stores and you can find out more about half price books@hpb.com.

Michael: So the next series of categories, we're going to get a little more specific. And we're going to get the inner life. We're going to start with man in the mirror. What Ross bro. Think about his own reflection. Here's that?

Amit: I mean, you go back to the, those obituary words of winery and gadfly, but also I'd say fiery is a fiery type of person.

He was not tall, right?

Michael: 5, 5, 5, 6. I saw both

Amit: numbers. So all of this, you know, I, I know it's not. The right thing to say, but, you know, there's sort of a Napoleon complex kind of there, you know, all of these tremendous achievements, this tremendous wealth

Michael: that was on my mind. I mean, how do you not use that term?

I know it's pop psychology, but yeah,

Amit: it is, but it's also, it's the . Yeah, I think, and he just has this always like standing at attention in the military. Cut, always on guard. And just to me, and this is my interpretation is that's. If you're always on guard, you're not. You're not the opposite of that. You're not relaxed.

And that implies to me that there's something that you just don't really like about your

Michael: physical presence. Yes. Announcing the hell out of this. I don't have a hard time saying I agree. I think I have a hard time believing he liked his red flag. It's just hard for me to see.

Amit: Well, there's ways that he could write.

He was very clean. Cut. He was well-dressed. He could have told you to your face a million times that I love myself. I like myself. Yeah. And I wouldn't have believed that.

Michael: So

Amit: that's our speculation is that we don't our, our man in the mirror speculation is, is I don't think so. I

Michael: don't think so either. All right.

Next category, outgoing message. You have reached the voicemail box. How do we think he felt about the sound of his own voice? All right. We're going to talk about this category here. Cause there's been some behind the scene discussions about whether or not we keep this category. I think that his voice is annoying as hell, but did he, like it is the question and I don't know, you know, the quips and his sort of, uh, what was the word they use in the obituary?

Epigrams is scripting. No, but if it was, it would apply. If he doesn't dislike his voice though, then I don't know what this category is all about.

Amit: Are you implying that, that he definitely does not like his voice. How could

Michael: you

Amit: be annoying? So you should be thankful Dr. Michael law's warning. Cause we're keeping this category.

Cause I think he did like his own voice. What's your case? I think he used it as an operator, as, as speech giver. And he loved to give these presentations and he was known for talking very loquacious. Mostly I'm not talking about the quality of his words or anything, but he liked to talk

Michael: no question about that, but when he heard his voice on an answering machine or on outgoing voicemail, Good with it.

I mean, everybody who ever hears their voice the first time says, I sound like that. I hate that, but he surely heard his voice a lot. And over time you become accustomed to how you sound and you think he made peace with it faster than the average bear. I

Amit: don't even know that he had to make peace with it.

I think he could have just liked that out. I'm making a broad assumption here, but people that, that talk a lot, you know, you not only like your word, so you like the way your words come out and yeah. So my outgoing message here on my chart was yes. He likes

Michael: his voice. Yeah. I gotta say I'm I'm persuaded because of the, or Raider speech given.

Thing, right. That, that if he's doing that, then

Amit: yes, he must see you're sticking with. He did not like the sound of his

Michael: own voice. No, I'm changing my answer. You've convinced me. I wasn't trying to change

Amit: your answer. You don't have quipping persuaded mighty.

Michael: Well, you present a good argument. It's a really good point.

I had a hard time. I had a hard time thinking what it would be like to be him and getting out of my own skin, because I only know what I hear. I don't know. It's almost an objectively annoying voice. Who was the guy?

Amit: Do you remember? He was in ski patrol. He may have been in like some police academy movies, Bobcat Goldthwait no, no, you wouldn't even know.

I don't think I seen the ski patrol movies. Okay. Then it's not relevant. Anyway, he had a. Type of voice. All

Michael: right, let's go on to the next category. Regrets, public or private. What we really want to know is what, if anything kept this person awake at night? Why don't you go first? I've already started weighted into this category.

Amit: Yeah. I mean, this is, this is the one that you kind of can't do it without the politics. But whatever the pundits say of, if he actually did affect the winner of the 92 election, if he did help, bill Clinton get

Michael: elected. Yeah. Which is impossible to know, but if he ever liked. It's thinking, gosh, did I help bill Clinton get elected?

You're just going with that thought train for now.

Amit: Yeah. Yeah. So that's a possibility. Cause I think if he were a voter, my guests at the polls, as he would have been at George HW Bush guy,

Michael: I wonder about that. I think that like all of the things being equal that would have been the best guests, but I actually think he was so sick of both parties.

That, I mean, obviously he was so sick of both parties that he felt compelled to run, you know, and felt like that was the only way to affect politics. I guess keep going, but I don't see the regret here yet. Okay.

Amit: That was, I mean, that was a guess is that maybe he started to chain of events that went from bill Clinton and the scandals that ensued.

And then if the country wasn't divided on Clinton gore probably would've been more likely to win. Let's say in 2000, and then the cascade of events that followed. And everything. And depending on how long he plays out the story until the end, his participation in that election could have altered the course of history.

Michael: You know, he didn't endorse George W. Bush in 2000. He also endorsed Mitt Romney in 2012. So. When you say he leaned Republican, I think that's fair. He stayed quiet in 2016 before. Yeah. Yeah.

Amit: So, but I'm, I'm not merely talking about the fact that he helped elect an opponent. I'm just saying that the course of history severely changed.

Michael: Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I do think that like in the same breath, he would also be able to say, well, I really raised this issue of the deficit to a level where it is being talked about and political discourse all up and down that, that everyday people are thinking about that to the extent that there are key issues, she really cared about.

You know, he can tell himself that I affected the debate, regardless of who won and lost. I don't see that one as, as much of a regret. Okay. For

Amit: him. Yeah. Maybe not. I really don't have a ton more to say about regrets. I believe he had,

Michael: well, okay. I got to, I mean, one, I started to mention earlier, which is not, you know, did I affect the election or not, but am I going to be remembered for this or not?

I could see that haunting him at night, that he has accomplished a lot of other things in his life. He's built successful companies. He helped Steve jobs bring the iPhone, eventually all kinds of philanthropic activity, funding, medicine, and arts, and all kinds of good stuff around Dallas. Like there's a lot that he has accomplished.

And yet 50 years from now, The historians will be arguing about whether or not he had an effect on the election or not. So I do wonder if he regrets the decision at all, because I have to imagine that if you got $4.1 billion, you care about your legacy. I think the other regret that we have to talk about is the decision to drop out that hop back in the race in 90.

Yeah, he's doing well in July. And then there's this whole like sort of claim of dirty trucks by the Republicans. He drops out of the race and then he hops back in an October and still gets 20 million votes that more than should I have run it all

Amit: must see, you're saying it's a regret. Cause he would wonder, could he have won

Michael: if he had to do that, did I follow the right strategy and getting out and then getting back in and it looks like a lack of commitment.

Yeah. You know, Next category, good dreams or bedrooms. This is more a question of, do they have a certain look in the eye that suggests inner turmoil or inner demons? Maybe even unresolved trauma. I said earlier, he's got a crazed look in the eye. I don't see a haunted one. I'm going to say good.

Amit: Good dreams, but crazed look in the

Michael: eye.

I think that he's got to fight to pick, like I said, a bone to pick, but I don't see him as hunted. I don't see him as traumatized. I don't see him as like a heart soul. I, you sleeping

well

Amit: at night. That's good. You know, I think I'm going to take that as well. Like good, but crazed and that describes his eyes, but maybe I'm also describing his dreams.

I don't know. Well, that's what the, that's what this category

Michael: is all

Amit: about. The look in the eyes, but I think you kind of said. I thought a bit more binary, you know, good dreams, bad dreams. Okay. Look in the eye or haunted, look in the eye, but this but crazed, I actually, I liked that avenue. Yeah,

Michael: I think we're agreed.

Okay. Second to last category, cocktail, coffee or cannabis we ask, which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity? It's maybe a question of what kind of drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person or another philosophy is. Allow access to a part of them. You're most curious about what did you have here?

I'm curious cannabis

Amit: with Ross pro uh, I think it's the access part. Yeah. Yeah. I think there could be something or I could just kind of see maybe it just triggers like a really high-pitched. For a long time. And I think that would entertain me. Um,

Michael: I thought about this fantasy of smoking a joint with Rosborough.

I think

Amit: it's the access, the access to his motivation, his perception of not America and the world, but the universe from somebody that's traveled from the economic journey that he has done and the extremely private to extremely public. Journey. I'm just, I'm just curious about how he sees the universe.

Michael: It's funny about this category. You and I often want the same things. We just are choosing different drugs to get at them. I want coffee with Rosborough because I think this guy is brilliant. I think that there is a tremendous intelligence there and whenever anybody has that kind of smarts, I just want to hear them go.

I want to engage in. Caffeinated conversation where we are just talking about how he sees the world, not just like his political view on government, but just how the world is organized. You know, he's got a crazy unique perch and I think he had that for a lot of his life and I would have wanted to learn from Rosborough.

Yeah. I wanted to add actually one other thing, too. I think it may be the single most interesting thing about him is intellect. I mean, I really would have liked to have. Gotten to know him on a real cerebral level.

Amit: Yeah, no doubt. He is a very smart guy and it's just not, he doesn't look at, you know, and that's, that's something that maybe belonged into the vibe.

Things is clearly very smart, but doesn't look. What was his relationship with alcohol? You know, I didn't see much

Michael: about it. I didn't see much about it there, but he could have been a raging alcoholic and would never want to know, you know, hard to imagine.

Amit: Imagine also hard to not be as an international businessman, but it's also like, he was also.

Of pretty steadfast values. And I don't know if alcohol cross center

Michael: that I actually do think it's hard to know again, with the family that's in the stratosphere in terms of this kind of wealth and culture. It's hard to know, but I kind of sense of family man here. I don't think that that's a front, you know, I think you do see that in other politicians.

And I think he's not exactly a politician. You becomes one after 92, when you decide to run for office, you are, but he never held political office. And I think another. Perception of him, his authenticity to

Amit: his credit. So maybe a drinker, but unlikely a raging drinker.

Michael: Yeah. I didn't say anything about it.

Yeah. All right. We're here. The VanDerBeek named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said in varsity blues. I don't want you to know. Based on everything we've talked about, the big question is, do you want this life as always? You and I have not arrived at a conclusion ahead of time, but I was, it was very hard not to think about this.

It's always hard. And I'll, I'll tell you one thing I've been trying to do. Before this conversation and leading up to it is asking myself if I took away some of the key things here, some of the big categories, for example, if I took away the 92 presidential campaign, what I want this life, or if I took away that $4.1 billion, what I want this life would that affect my answer because.

The idea of running for president? It sounds awful to me, the idea of being president sounds awful to me and throwing yourself as a sort of a well-to-do wealthy folk hero where young Ahmet may have heard of you, but most of America has not prior to 92. To throw yourself into the limelight. Like that sounds awful.

I think it's worse than any other form of celebrity in a way, because the way it gets scrutinized and where's, there's this public battle for your story and what it means, and your ability to write your own story is forever lost. As soon as you run for office and you can try to manage it and you might get lucky, you might hear a version of that story you like, but it's kind of out of your control.

I want a life where I'm choosing my own destiny and where I get to share. The narrative of who I am and I fame risks that, and political fame really risks that. So that that's almost a deal breaker for me right there. And then I don't feel like I could handle $4.1 billion. I don't know if I could handle a hundred million dollars.

That's a lot of days. Yeah. It's it is a lot of days. It's a lot of

Amit: weeks. Okay. So,

Michael: so, so I'm a pretty lean heavy know on those things. Now, hypothetically, if you asked me. Would you want this life absent the money and absent the presidential campaign. There's some things here that are really great. There is a rags to riches story.

There's a long-term marriage, there's five children. There's a lot of philanthropic activity. You're engaged in some really incredible adventures can fall. It writes a book about something you did wants to save two people from revolutionary Iran. Like there's some really great stuff here.

Amit: Yeah. But James VanDerBeek did not have a choice of removing.

Of the life. You have to make a

Michael: decision. If you're asking me to make a decision, I think my answer is now

Amit: your answer is no. So taking, taking all of that, if I have to

Michael: take all of it. Yeah. I don't, I don't want this life, man. This isn't for me.

Amit: What about you? You made me think a lot there about, about the public life that's involved in a campaign and the presidency and the aftermath of whether you won or not.

Yeah, I don't, I don't mind that. And I see what you say about, you know, in generations past, that's all

Michael: you're known for. Yeah. But that doesn't affect your life. Exactly. I mean, your legacy is not, you know, the experience of having been alive. This question, the VanDerBeek do you want this life is not. How are you remembered?

I mean, it can be, I guess, but I don't feel like that's the, it's how you

Amit: think you'll be remembered. Yeah, it is part of that. That's true. But I, you know, one of the things I said in the five things I love about you was the challenging of the Parkinson's. You know, the challenging of boundaries, this idea that you have a year to meet a quota and you do it in three weeks, this idea that, you know, you have two years to complete a project and you do it.

And two months, or even

Michael: this idea that there's only two political parties in America,

Amit: perhaps this idea that you are born in. Depression Texarkana and deliver papers on a pony. Predestines you for something? I'm not saying anybody had that idea, but it was, it was a life of testing, extreme boundaries, and it was almost like a, if you can imagine it, you can do it, especially with the Vietnam and the Iran stories or fables where whatever you want to call them, but then running for president take having the audacity.

To do that. And I'm not, I'm not at all, but not judging. I'm not judging. I'm not judging. I'm just saying, having that, that audacity and that ability to make choices and challenge conventions, it seems to me it's significant. There's a significance there. And that's attractive to me. I struggle with will my time be significant in my own.

Right. And so I like it. I like that that his was significant. It may, as you said, it may not have been private enough, but that wins it for me. So I'm saying yes to the vendor. Wow.

Michael: It's a strong case. I don't think it changes my answer. I will say that from 1930 to 91, you can't. I know, I know, I know why

Amit: James made a decision at that table, which is what we modeled that category.

He says, I don't want. Yeah, there was not, there was not a dialogue. I know where the data goes back and says, well, what if I, you

Michael: know, I wouldn't change my answer. I wouldn't change my answer. I'm but, but I am trying to dissect it a level deeper so that I can do what I think we're here to do on this show, which is extract out what I care about and your points that I want to live a significant life is absolutely true.

I do not want to be part of the mass of quiet desperation. Yeah. I mean, there's,

Amit: there's an art to the VanDerBeek and. That you have to have a yes or a no, because the point is that there's not an algorithm. There's not like if you have money, if you have a certain consistency of love or some measure of fame that it's like, yes, no, yes, no.

And then you have an algorithm. I want this life, our whole point is that you can have yes or no, and you can have numbers all over the place and you can have achievements all over the place, but then there's this strong element of. And that magic could be 10%, 50% or 70%. And we don't really know, but the fact that we have to arrive at a yes or no answer, just reveals that there is magic in there somewhere that is somehow weighing our

Michael: decisions.

It's very well said. All right, we've arrived, Michael we're

Amit: at the pearly gates. You are Ross Perot, a trust. You are a trust fro present yourself to quote unquote St. Pete.

Michael: Peter, you know, I had a really long run and I had a very eventful life. I think people are going to remember me most for the presidential election in 1992.

And maybe do a lesser extent 1996. It was, as some would describe an audacious move to hop into the presidential election. And in some ways I do feel like my whole life led up to it. I was granted a lot of good fortune. I think I earned it. I think we make our own luck and Lord knows. I worked my tail off.

I created successful company. And as I grew that company, I, I think I lifted a lot of people up. I gave people opportunity. Yes. I had strict rules around that, but along the way, I saw something at risk that I cared about, which was the future of America. I wanted the good fortune that was offered to me and that I earned and that I worked for.

I wanted that for everybody. And I saw a system that. Breaking and falling apart. So I felt compelled to hop into that election. I don't know if that's the thing I'm going to be judged for here at the pearly gates. I hope it's not. I hope I can be evaluated based on the totality of my contributions to humanity, because if it's not obvious, I cared.

I cared about everybody. Whoever worked for me, I cared about my family. And I cared about the country that gave me so much. Maybe it didn't always look like acts of service, but ultimately I see my life as an act of service and I did my best to share that the best way I knew that. So for that, but man,

thank you for listening to this episode of famous and granny. If you're enjoying our show, please go to apple podcasts to rate and review. You can sign up for our mailing list@famousandgravy.com and you can follow us on Twitter at famous and grainy. Our show was co-created by Amik Kapore and me Michael Osborne, mixing, mastering and sound designed by Morgan Honaker graphic designed by Brandon Burke and original music by Kevin Strang.

Thank you again for listening and hope to see you. Next time. .