009 Fan Favorite Transcript (Kenny Rogers)

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Michael: This man died in 2020 at the age 81. I'm in cane. I don't know. He's sold well over 100 million records in a career that spanned seven decades. Oh, he's a singer. Is it Wayland?

Ashley: J.

Michael: It's not Waylon Jennings. He's more a fan favorite than a critics, darling. He was something of a late bloomer his career as a solo artist did not gain traction until he was 38.

Ashley: Oh man. I have no idea.

Michael: Duo recordings were a prominent part of his repertoire.

Ashley: Oh, I know who it is. He saying with Dolly Parton is Dolly Parton's guy. What is his name? Give me another clue.

Michael: Long before the ascendancy of Garth Brooks and Shania Twain and the 1990s, he was among the first country artists to sell out arenas.

Ashley: Yes. Uh, it's um, he's saying that I'm blanking today. I didn't get much sleep.

Michael: All right. Last clue. He described his music as having two categories. Love songs. You decorated my life and narrative ballads, like the gambler and Lucille.

Ashley: Yeah, I know. I know. He's Willie Nelson's friend. Oh my gosh.

Why is his name, mom thing, the gambler with Jay Kenny Rogers.

Michael: Uh, today's dead. Celebrity is Kenny Ryan. Oh my God. I can't believe I could not remember. Kenny Rogers, Noah, the wall. No. And Joe

time.

welcome to famous. My name is Michael Osborne.

Amit: My name is Amit Kapoor.

Michael: And on this show, we go through a series of categories about multiple aspects of a famous person's life. We want to figure out the things in life that we would actually desire and ultimately answer the big question. Would I want that life today?

Kenny Rogers died 2020 age 81 first category grading the first line of their obituary, Kenny Rogers. A prolific singer who played a major role in expanding the audience for country music in the 1970s and 80s died on Friday at his home in Sandy Springs, Georgia.

Amit: That was it.

Michael: It's very short. It

was exactly my reaction.

like, really?

I couldn't believe that was it.

Amit: Yeah. I mean, it was descriptive as complimentary, but I expected at least one, like some reference to the major. Uh, I would expect a gambler reference at a

Michael: minimum. Amen. Yeah. Before I read it and I was asking myself, is the gambler going to be mentioned in the first line of the obituary?

Surely. And I have to say that in preparing for this episode, I really did not realize how big, deep, rich, expansive and prolific his career was. I had such a strong association between him and the gambler that I was like, well, are they going to mention this one? Huge hit? Yeah, they did

Amit: say. But they didn't say anything else.

Well, let's put some context into this. When did we lose Kenny

in 2020? When's when, specifically in 20.

Michael: March 21st, 2020,

Amit: correct.

The world was on fire

was beginning to inflame some, maybe it was just not the time for playful words and expansive first

Michael: lines we were talking about. COVID obviously March, 2020 is the beginning of the Panda, especially the second half

Amit: of March, but I don't know the exact take a pass

Michael: on writing the obituary.

Yes, it is really,

Amit: I think. I mean, I don't know. I'm not, I don't have the entire paper in front of me from March 21st, but maybe it just, the mood wasn't there

Michael: that feels like bullshit to me. I get that. The mood isn't there. Yes. COVID was a major disruption to American life. the people at the New York times who write these obituaries, they have a job to do.

I'm not trying to make the case that Kenny Rogers was. Important. I just feel like there's a lot more to be said here,

Amit: but it wasn't transport yourself back then. It wasn't just the news of the day. He was probably staring at his air conditioning vent. Just wondering if something is going to seep out and like tear apart, his

Michael: insides point taken

Amit: we're moving away from that point.

So we're taking it out of context and you are arguing that no matter what, it's not.

Michael: Goddamn, right. It's not,

I don't care if you like any Roger's music or not.

Let's just go through this again, because all they say prolific singer played a major role in expanding the audience of country music in the seventies and eighties.

True. Died on. I mean, that's it. I mean, it's so true.

It's just missing a lot. I mean, to say he was a crossover star to say he had friends to say he was icon that he sold out arenas. I mean, all the other stuff that was in the quiz, there's usually more room to pack in. I was,

I came away from this extremely

disappointed.

Amit: There were no jobs. It was all complimentary.

Michael: I feel like the scamp newness of it is itself a jab. They really did not honor him, but actually think it's also consistent with his popularity and fame in that, even that line, he was more of a fan favorite than a critics, darling. That that seems reflected in the scant newness of the first line of his obituary.

He's very forgettable.

Amit: Or you're just now you're making a statement, an opinion statement.

Michael: What may be? I, I think he's underestimated in some ways. Okay.

Amit: Fair enough. Okay. So your grade on the

obituary

Michael: I give

it a one I give it a one

Amit: A ONE

Michael: I'm sorry.

Amit: I've never heard such things

Michael: There's there's nothing.

Maybe I'll bump that up to a two

because it's accurate.

But

the amount it misses is offensive to me. Okay And I don't even like his music.

I just want to make that clear. It's sort of like not impressed with this obituary line. And even if you think you might die tomorrow, you have a job.

Amit: My diet this moment, not just tomorrow, but I'm not taking your approach.

I do agree it was scant, especially for the New York times, but I thought it was complimentary.

It said more than just prolific. It said that he was a

crossover

Michael: expanding the audience. Yeah.

Amit: So I refuse to remove the context from it. So I'm giving it.

a

six

Wow.

Michael: It's better than average for you, huh?

Amit: Yeah. I guess five is an average in a definitive way, but it's almost like six or seven is the average, you know, I'm thinking more of like grading in school.

Michael: How can six or seven be an

Amit: No It's like grading in school. Like nobody gets a 50,

Michael: it's all leaning towards the average is actually I've

taught classes. I've had students and there's always a bell distribution and

you're saying it's better than average.

Amit: I'm saying it's a six And I'm saying I have every right to define myself what it means.

If I'm giving it a score between one to ten

Michael: you're

not a little disappointed

Amit: Yes I am,

Michael: but

you're giving it a six

Amit: Hence the gap between ten and six

Michael: It's on a curve because of COVID.

Amit: No it's not on a curve because of COVID it's on my own curve,

but yeah, no, you're right. I, there, there is some forgiveness because of COVID and it's not because of COVID I'm not talking about August 20, 20.

I'm talking March 20th, 20,

Michael: 20. Yeah. All right, let's go on to category two, five things. I love about you here. Amit and I work together to come up with five things we love about this person.

Amit: Why don't you start us off?

Michael: Okay.

His friends, his famous friends line. Comes up quite a bit. And the research Kenny and Lionel were definitely buds Lionel wrote the song lady, and he's extremely complimentary Dolly Parton.

Obviously Willie is on that list, but also I got his memoir, the names that come up throughout Michael Jordan, for example, and Kenny Rogers, we're friendly. There's another moment where he talks about hanging out with George Brown. And then, you know, the thing that really sums it up for me is that he had a pretty instrumental role in, we are the world, all the singers coming to, but you can't, you

Amit: can't put that inclusive of your number one.

Michael: It's not, but I'm impressed with his friendships in the country, music domain and beyond what are these deep friendships they seem to be certainly with Lionel Richie, there seems to be a real true. Shared respect and love for these two guys. Right? Both of whom again, whose music I do not care for. Yeah.

But I liked that. I liked that, that he's connecting with people outside of country music, because to me he's such a fixture of country. That's

Amit: great friends is the one thing that we've, we kind of struggled to fit into a category here because it is one of the most definitive things about a good life or a quality of life, but it's a really, really hard thing to get data on.

And so any time that we have known friendships, it's a great thing to love about somebody. So that's my one. Okay, I'll go back. I'll take it to his earlier days in Houston where he grew up, but grew up very poor. Yeah. First in his family, he thinks to ever graduate high school. And the reason I'm choosing this as we have a lot of rags to riches stories that we see in this.

Yeah. But not a lot of rags to. Pop stories. If you know what I mean, like he's pop country and you do have some of those kind of gritty songs and stuff that come out of him, but you have a lot of what seems like sort of rich boy songs, but where his roots were so different from that.

Michael: All right. I'll take three.

I liked that he became famous age 38, the late bloomer thing, late thirties. Isn't super duper late. And he had been with that band first edition, which I want to talk about more in a second, but his solo career and him as this standalone singer. And, and later duo didn't really happen until age 38. I kind of liked the slow burn of that.

You know, I kinda liked that he got to his late thirties before there was really like breakout superstardom for him, you know? And Bryan Cranston is another good example. Somebody who didn't make it famous for their good looks in their early twenties, you know, that he's a more of a fully formed man by then.

Yeah, I like that.

Amit: Yeah. I like that a lot. That means a lot to me. So does that mean I get number four? It does. So I guess we're going back to the first edition, the song that became famous again for you and I at sort of our coming of age period. I just dropped in to see what condition my condition was in, which was a key song in the big Lebowski.

But why I'm choosing this is here. We have Kenny Rogers later known as country pop star, but this is a song about LSD. So I'm putting that as something I love about him. Not because it's a drug song, but just because it speaks to the well-roundedness or is it the sort of all circles that he actually touched, like in the same breadth that you say he was actually friends with?

Michael Jordan, right? It's kind of the same thing as the guy who sang the gambler also has this very famous. Song that had a second life in it that was originally written about a

Michael: drug experience. And I did not know that that was Kenny Rogers, his voice before doing the research on this episode, did you

Amit: that song, you didn't buy the soundtrack to the big Lebowski?

Michael: I had it, but I don't think I put it together. That that was Kenny Rogers vocals on that song. And so you knew that ahead of time? I think so. Yeah. A couple more things on that song. Cause that's also on my list. Apparently it was a Jimmy Hendrix. Uh, Jimmy favorite? Yes. Jimmy really liked this song and Kenny Rogers did mention it in his memoir that for some people, the association with Lebowski is their entire knowledge of the band and the song of the first edition.

They didn't know it outside of that movie. And it's a good song. It's a great song. All cool. So I guess five we're at five we're at five. Wow.

I went with fried chicken entrepreneurship. Okay. The Kenny Rogers fried chicken chain, which did pretty well and was famously part of a Seinfeld episode when they opened it right next to Kramer's.

What what'd you go down to the Kenny Rogers and complain? Oh, they gave me the heave hole. You know, I don't think that Kenny Rogers has any

idea what's going on down there. So can we just expand that to just general entrepreneurship? He owned studios. I think he actually owned the studio studio that, that a lot of weird world was recorded in.

Yes. There was a theater, I think in Branson that he owned, he had part of a racing car, not a team, but I think like a chassis, I don't exactly know what that means, but it was something that he lent his name and. Time and his money too. Yeah. He had a lot of things in addition

to the chicken at well, which we should say was a partnership between him and the former CEO of Kentucky fried chicken.

Amit: Yeah. So this is no small chicken,

Michael: no spring chicken.

Amit: Yeah.

I had, I want to talk about the chicken for a second,

Michael: Please

Amit: so maybe it'll come, it'll come up more because of that Seinfeld episode that made it so famous,

Michael: Yeah

Amit: but I actually didn't know at the time. Who's chicken. It was, I knew that there was Kenny Rogers, but at the time there was also a Kenny Rogers that played baseball, I believe for the Rangers.

And I didn't know like which Kenny Rogers chicken it was, or if it was neither of them, if there just happens to be a third Kenny Rogers who had chicken,

Michael: but at some point you figured out it's the country singer's fried chicken,

Amit: which

might've been yesterday. I'm not sure what

that point was.

Okay.

Michael: So let's recap where we are.

Number one,

Amit: you said friendships. To I said grew

Michael: up very poor. Yeah. Three. I had famous breakout stardom at age 38. Yep. Four was what condition my condition was in. And then five was, uh, entrepreneurship with an emphasis on fried chicken with an emphasis on chicken. Okay, great. Let's move on to category three.

And Malcovich Malcovich. This category is named after the movie being John Malcovich in which there is a portal available into John Malcovich his mind where you can have a front row seat. To his experiences what'd you have for Malcovich Malcovich there were a few, there

Amit: were some that I wanted to say.

I wanted to say that we are the world recording, which I think I would say for anybody that was president, we are the world that I want to be there for that a side note. That was my go-to karaoke song for awhile. Yeah. I just, I love the song, but I have such vivid imagery of that recording and it just, it lasted for years and just sort of the American.

Yeah.

Michael: Something. Yeah. Can we pause actually? How do you feel about Kenny Rogers music overall? I like the

Amit: hits. Do you, if, if I play him on repeat for a few hours, not so much sure. But I like

Michael: the hits. Okay. I've said I don't like his music so much because. It really gets stuck in my head. It's already playing for repeat in my head for hours and hours before we've even started listening.

But that really is based on what is, admissibly a very incomplete understanding of his music. I have not ever owned a Kenny Rogers album. And what condition my condition was in or what the name of that song is, is good enough that I came away from the research for this. A little more curious.

Amit: Yeah. So, but my, my actual Malcovich, so I said, it's not where the world, what I chose was he sang the gambler onstage with fish at Bonnaroo.

Michael: I'm thrilled to play with right now. Please give a warm welcome to Kenny Rogers.

Amit: That's what I wanted it to be behind the eyes of him being onstage with fish at Bonneroo, you know, it's not like this is like a Madison square garden. Like this is the new, slightly alternative Woodstock type of thing, or as much as you can be in today's like commercial festival. So this song that he'd made famous along for a band that represents, I wouldn't say the opposite of it, but something completely different from it to a fan base that probably has never attended any of your concerts.

Yeah. That experience of worlds. I wouldn't say colliding, but worlds like. Especially that late in his life.

Michael: That was like for him. I mean, that's, to me, that's the point of the Malcovich question is to sort of imagine the inner life of performing the gambler with tray. So I'm

Amit: saying the same guy that recorded condition, which was about very much the liberation and an alternative lifestyle and drug culture.

And then he became a pop star for three decades before. And then he's back on stage in 2012 with Trey Anastasio in front of like the modern version of that crowd from the sixties.

Michael: That is beautiful. I like that good one. So I give you my Malcovich moment. Yeah, there was a lot of candidates here for me. I thought about going with when he met his fifth wife's parents, because it sounded awkward.

The moments of awkwardness are always interesting to me. I ended up going with. Apparently he developed something of a backstage friendship with Elvis, and this came out of his memoir. He got the chance to meet Elvis on a handful of occasions. And apparently Elvis approached him. He tells this one story about Elvis showing up at his dressing room.

And telling him, Kenny Rogers, I like your music. And Kenny says, you're sort of fumbling around. I said, I like yours too Elvis, which I think is sort of endearing. But he also has this line in the memoir where he talks about Elvis seemed lonely. Like he was sort of looking for somebody to connect with this is before Kenny Rogers, his solo career really takes off.

And he seems to be thinking about what fame. Can do and can mean and can be. And this gets back to the sort of late bloomer thing to see a loneliness, to perceive a loneliness and alienation and isolation. And in Elvis, in fact, they got to talking about gambling and this is not in that first interaction, but in a later interaction behind stage where.

Kenny Rogers talks about going and Billy and blackjack in Vegas and Elvis being like, I wish I could do that. And the Colonel who manage it, Elvis said, you can't go out there. And that's dangerous. Kenny Rogers saw the trappings of fame through the eyes of Elvis. And one thing that I am also impressed with.

Five things I love about you list, but I'm really kind of impressed with his comfort with fame. I'm not sure if he anticipated its inevitability for him, but he inhabits fame pretty comfortably. There's another part in the memoir where he talks about is somebody I forget who says, you're going to need other creative outlets other than music, because the road is going to be a grind for you.

So he takes up tennis and he takes up photography, Kenny Rogers, that photography was a big thing, big thing with him. Right. And it seemed like he was sort of managing superstardom on his way to the rocket ship of fame, I guess, to bring it back to the Malcovich. Just like seeing Elvis and his full humanity, but then developing a friendship and getting to know him, given Elvis's stature.

I want to know the inner life of Kenny Rogers in that moment. Yeah. Good. One next category. How many marriages also, how many kids and is there anything public to know about these relationships? Whew doggy. Yeah, it sounds

Amit: a

Michael: dizzy. All right. Should we just let's bang through it then let's talk. Okay. All right.

Five marriages, five children, first marriage, Janice Gordon, 1958. Kenny is just shy of 20. He claims the first woman he ever slept with and got her pregnant. Did the quote unquote admirable thing got married. It was a shit. And they are divorced two years later when Kenny is 21 or 22, he is a strange from the first child.

They had a child. And what I read on this was that the man, his first wife ended up marrying was going to step in as father. And now. Kenny Rogers to not be involved in any way, shape or form. And he claims, okay, I won't be part of this family. So he has no relationship with his first child. Second marriage to Jean and 1960.

Can. He is 22 ish divorced in 1963. So he's about 25, no kids with that one third marriage, Margo Anderson in 1964. Kenny is 26. They divorced in 19 76, 1 child, Kenny Jr. Tumultuous marriage, Kenny, his twelve-year tumultuous marriage. Well, yes, but the marriage was apparently over much earlier than when the divorce was finalized, but it also got very content.

That'll come up later. Kenny is 38. When he divorces his third wife, he gets married again to Marianne Gordon actress who was in among other movies. Rosemary's baby. And that's in October of 1977. I have Kenny at about 39 and they divorced in 19 93, 1 child can. He is 55 and then his fifth and final marriage to Wanda Miller in 1997.

Kidney is about 59. They had identical twin sons and were married for 22 years until his death. Yeah.

Amit: He was never single. These gaps between marriages are like months. In some cases he was chain smoking marriages, like one would end and then he could go to the next.

Michael: Yeah. And I mean, he's pretty forthcoming about his sex drive.

And I think this matters because at the tail end of marriage, number four, This will come up later in regrets, he gets caught up in this phone sex scandal kind of did you come across this now as his marriage is disintegrating, it comes out and gets leaked to the national Enquirer and it's hugely embarrassing.

So, you know, whenever you and I get to this category, the marriages, in which case here, there are five use term chain-smoking marriages, which I think is right on the money. You know, I'm always wondering what to make of it. Five marriages at first blush doesn't look very good. What do you make of this, of the five marriages?

Yeah. If we're on the marriage category of the marriage and the kids thing.

Amit: So I, I see it as just, he is afraid to be alone that many marriages, such small gaps in between. I see a deep fear of being alone. He clearly was not fully committed and I'm not saying he was disloyal. It's just that, you know, he was still kind of looking around the corner for.

Possibly what's next. Like he hadn't really committed inside of himself. And so he enters into a marriage. It doesn't go well, he divorces it and thinks this one will go well, but then there's someone next to comes along and who's hotter or whatever. And so it's a conflict between not wanting to be alone, which is a very, very real strong force.

And. Also, maybe being a sexual attractive being that he didn't know how to reconcile those two

Michael: things. I think that you also have to factor in the lifestyle of the work itself, that he's on tour a lot, and he is performing these songs to big arenas. And he's still a huge commercial draw. I just don't know how one does family life with that kind of scale.

It's not just that you're on the road, but it's also like the energy that it takes to sort of gear up for each show and that the shows largely happening at night. So you don't have a regular sleep schedule. I don't know how anybody could honestly be a professional musician and be at home. For a

Amit: family.

Oh, there's tens of thousands of people that do that. Musicians, comedians, anybody that tours in that sort of way, but they all do it. Most of them do it.

Michael: It's true. You know, over and over in his book, he says there's a fine line between being driven and being selfish. I think that that plays into his marriage.

Record. I think that on one hand he is driven to success and I think he's intentional about his desire to be a crossover performer. I also think that comes at the expense of family life. He's a strange from his first daughter, his next two children are both boys and he is very upfront about not being present for them when they were.

Okay. I mean, he's on the road a lot. And what is that difference between being selfish and driven? I think that there is a fine line. I got to say, I did not expect Kenny Rogers to have that kind of ability for self-reflection and self-awareness. Let's

Amit: just talk for a second. Like, why are all these touring artists

Michael: married?

I mean, isn't it just a desire for stability?

Amit: Yeah. That's the question though? That does this level of touring fame compromise that stability?

Michael: Yes, but I would imagine that you tell yourself I'm going to be thoughtful about my time and how much I'm on tour. I mean, you hear it performing touring acts, right?

Of learning to draw boundaries, essentially in terms of how much they're on the road and for how long and where they go and who they go with. And even what they're doing on the road, that the question of how to draw those boundaries and how to allocate family time to professional touring, not to mention revenue, deriving life, you know, becomes more and more pointed.

I

Amit: guess what's going on in my head is can you be a good dad? Like, are you just inherently set up to not be

Michael: a good one? I think that's a complicated question, but I think it's a great question. I do think with children, there are different phases of life where you may or may not kind of know how to be a parent.

When my kids were like less than a year. I was a non-entity. I mean, they had no relationship with me. And then there are phases where I've become more of a, you know, playful dad or whatever, like get on the ground and play pretend. But there's also phases they go through or like I'm not as into the stage and I still love them, but it's sort of like my ability to be present and active.

I don't know that being a good parent means doing that through every different phase and stage of life and development. It's okay to look at your schedule and say, I'm going to be on the road for the next three months. And that's okay. And I'm stepping away from family life. And it's not that I don't love them just as much, but I'm not going to be around for the next few months.

Yeah. And still be a good father or mother. Yeah.

Amit: Yeah. I guess that's true. I mean, it's just it's so non-traditional compared to. The live is we know from our friends and so forth, but obviously there's hundreds of thousands that do it because their

Michael: careers are quite right. But your question is really right.

I mean, at the end of the day, as a parent, as a spouse, the only thing you have to give is your attention and is your presence and phone calls and letters and zoom meetings and FaceTime meetings. Kind of only sort of supplement the actual being together in real life and devoting your attention and who you are to who's sitting across from you.

And I think unless they can come on the road with you, you are going to struggle with the family life full stop. Yeah. I

Amit: don't buy it. This thing though, that like of the temptations of the road that you're, this. Singer and you pack arenas and you have women available to you. Therefore it's hard to be married that much, either don't buy, or I just don't want to buy because I just, I have to believe self restraint is the thing you get married for a reason, and you made an oath and I just don't see how the fact that you are famous and have women available to you somehow.

Can shake that same inner being that allowed you to, to make that oath. I do think you have a choice to be married or not to be married and maybe it's more difficult, but I struggle with hearing somebody famous and on the road, and they've got all these different violence throwing themselves at them. I don't think that's the road's fault.

I think there's the inner beings fault of not actually being committed or knowing who you are, are

well

Michael: enough. I, a hundred percent agree with that to say temptations of the road is a convenient excuse for otherwise not wanting to be at home or be participating in the family or whatever yet. All right, well, let's move on category five.

Amit: I saw 250 million. He saw rich Kenny that's 50

Michael: million. That's a quarter to today's comas.

Amit: That is, um, God damn. I mean that song alone, that one song alone, the royalties that must come from it.

Michael: The gambler. Yeah. Yeah.

Amit: That's a lot of money. It's a lot of money. Kenny is I think a lot richer than his contemporaries from the same era.

It's not all chicken money, you know, mostly music money, but let me get, let me tell you a story. The year after I graduated college, I was on like a backpacking trip and I was in New Zealand, like some festival. And there was just this like group of like drunken Kiwis, just like singing that song in unison, like on a picnic blanket, on a mountain.

And, you know, I knew the song, but I was. In New Zealand. I mean, I was only like 23

Michael: at the time. I didn't realize quite how internationally popular Kenny Rogers was and yeah, but that's

Amit: just what they want to do was get drunk and put their arms around each other and sing that song. And I think that's happened not only in New Zealand.

I think you can see that in Europe. I wouldn't be surprised if you saw that in some parts of Africa or Russia, any place

Michael: it's got tremendous transcendent power and you know, the metaphors in it are corny, but also. Great. Yeah. Right. I don't know. I saw this number 250 million and here's something that struck me.

Like he's still, every time he performed in the, throughout the two thousands up until they quit touring in 2017, he would perform the gambler. He would sing. Islands in the stream. And he would sing like the hits that people wanted to. He didn't have to do that anymore. Now, maybe he's on stage seeking validation from the crowd because no matter how much money you make, you're still wanting that.

But he seemed to have, I'm going to do this for the audience. It's what they want. And that went beyond, you know, racking up the dollars. Should we move on. Let's move on. Category six substance, Saturday night, live or Hollywood walk of fame. This is a measure of how famous this person is. We include both guest appearances on Saturday night live and the Simpsons as well as impersonations.

Amit: So let's knock out the easy one Hollywood walk of fame. Cause we haven't even talked about the fact that he was an actor and

Michael: he's got a Hollywood walk of fame. I couldn't believe it. He got it in 1979. He's got a star. Yeah. Yeah. And that great. Also unsurprisingly in the country, music hall of fame, but Hollywood walk of fame.

Yeah. Good for him. Yeah. Good job, Kenny. All right. So since the only reference I have found was that there was a 2003 episode called Bart's beard. Somehow Bart gets a beard and Bart pays a visit somewhere in is mistaken for Kenny Rogers. I think in a nursing home, I

Amit: didn't even find that. Yeah. That's okay.

But no other references you

Michael: found, I never saw him as a voice on the

Amit: Simpsons, but they said the one name, Kenny Rogers, I guess if they were mistaken that's right. It counts as we define it. I

Michael: think so. Sarah, I can, thing I saw was Kevin Nealon did an impersonation of him in 1990 Google image. That one it's good.

That was the only thing I said. I never saw him as an actor.

Amit: I thought I saw another one about not like as an official act, but going on stage during like Gwyneth Paltrow's monologue. Yeah, I think that's when she was doing that movie, like duets, maybe countries. No, I'm getting the facts wrong here, but I think he did walk on stage.

It

Michael: seems like he should have the other thing I thought worth mentioning here, mad TV. Did this come up from?

Amit: And I saw that a lot. I've never watched really mad TV, but there was a recurring

Michael: sketch. Do you remember mad magazine? How it used to work? They would take two disparate things and sort of pair them together.

So you might have like star wars characters in the Seinfeld sitcom, and then they'd just. Sketches of that. This was Kenny Rogers jackass like jackass, the Johnny Knoxville TV show. Hi, I'm Steven

So it was Kenny Rogers, like getting hit with a baseball bat and kicked in the balls. That kind of thing. It's pretty hilarious. I did still want to say this in as much as this category is meant to capture how famous a person is. Clearly he's famous. This gets back to the obituary for me. I think he's still sort of forgetting.

Like for being a kind of eighties fixture for, we are the world for $250 million for selling out arenas. I do wonder 30 years from now. Are we going to remember this guy at all?

Amit: The song will be remembered, right? The name associated. Perhaps not cause surely, I mean, here we are only a year and a half after this test kind of weird though,

Michael: right?

Like that. I mean that he gets us sort of scanned obituary line maybe because of COVID, but that it makes a $250 million that he spans seven decades and people struggled to remember his name a little bit. You just remember that face on the cover of country music, CDs from the 1980s and nineties. Correct.

Amit: And I don't want to get into this, but how important is it that they do remember.

Michael: I don't know if it's important. It's just, it's, it's a disconnect to me given the commercial success. Yeah. He's not a more like comes right to you. Okay. Kind of name. Yeah. I just wanted to know. Okay. All right. Over, under, in this category, we look at the life expectancy for the year.

They were born to see if they beat the house odds. And as a measure of. So in 1938, the life expectancy for men was 61.9 years. Kenny Rogers died at age 81. Bravo, Kenny, about 20 years over

Amit: the, yeah, the, yeah, our winning streak continues.

Michael: Okay. So at this point, all of our categories have really dealt with what is easily knowable information, the basic facts of a person's life.

In a moment, we're going to shift gears and get at the more introspective categories, try and imagine what would it actually be like to be this person? Uh, but before we do that, let's take a break and pause for a word from our spot.

Amit: So Michael, we each do our own set of research. As we prepare for these shows, I notice you always reference a biography and you have like a paperback biography with you as we come to studio. So I am to assume that you're getting these from some online mega Mart. Is that correct?

Michael: Not at all the first thing I do when you and I decide on our next dead celebrity, is I go and find out, is there a biography on this person?

And is that biography available at half price books? There's a store right up the street from me, an actual brick and mortar store where I can walk in when I go there to find. Do they have a biography for our next debt celebrity, but I always wind up picking up more books. I go through the children's section.

I'm a sucker for a good page Turner. So I go through the murder mystery section. They also have rare collections. They have signed stuff. I don't know how this sounds to you, but I actually, I love the smell of half-price books. It's got that old books.

Amit: I do. I like that tune that a

Michael: great smell.

Amit: Yeah. And you know what?

Half price books is currently celebrating 50 years of buying and selling books, movies, and music. There are more than 120 stores and you can find out more about half price books@hpb.com.

Michael: Okay. Let's now get into the more introspective categories. The first one being man in the mirror

Amit: named after Kenny's friend Michael Jackson.

Michael: That's right. Yeah, that's right. That's a good one. So here's what I got, obviously. Yes, the silver Fox. Good looks. This man is a handsome man with a great beard and a good.

Until the botched plastic surgery, which comes up as a regret and he does something he actually addresses. And what age was that? I think around 2006. So he had another 14 years. Ish. Yeah. And to call it a botched plastic surgery is a little harsh. He said, yeah, I didn't either like the way it came out, but you'd move on.

He also talked about the decision to have plastic surgery in his sixties or seventies or whatever it is when he did it. He's like, yeah, I had the money to do it and I wanted to look better, but it did sort of make his eyes come up a little bit more.

Amit: Does it ever look good on anybody plastic

Michael: surgery?

Yeah, I think it does. When you don't notice it, when you can spot it, we can tell somebody who's had plastic surgery. It always looks a little awkward to me also think there's plastic surgery happening that we really don't know of because they've gotten better at hiding it for exactly that reason. So it's a little bit of a catch 22.

Amit: Okay. Yeah. So taking that, that he had this botched plastic surgery and perhaps he didn't like the way he looked after that. Right. Can you give a yesterday.

Michael: You know, it's a tough one. You said earlier, you used the phrase he's chain smoking marriages. That to me influences the man in the mirror question. I think he's self aware of his image big time.

And I think he's deliberate in how he cultivates his image as a performer and as a famous man. I don't know that anybody, no matter how good looking you are, looks in the mirror and says I'm 100% good with that. And I think that's true for Kenny Rogers. Yeah. My guess is he was mostly good with it most of the time.

So I'd say yes, he likes Israel.

Amit: Yeah, you brought up a really good points. I mean, I was just going to go with an unquestionable. Yes. You know, there is the plastic surgery. Thank you. Bring up a very good point about the degree to which he was sort of made up. And I just hadn't thought about that. So I think you made some good.

Michael: Next category outgoing message.

Amit: You have reached the voicemail

Michael: box of like man in the mirror. We want to know, did they like the sound of their own voice enough that when they heard it on an answering machine or an outgoing voicemail, they were good with it. Again,

Amit: I maybe I'm not thinking deeply enough about it, but I'm just going.

Yes.

Michael: Okay. I think that this one required a whole lot of thought. Okay. He liked the sound of his voice. Yes. Okay. Next category, recurrence, public or private. We want to know what, if anything kept this person awake at night, I've got two in the public category. Yeah, cause you kind of hinted at some of them earlier.

Yeah. So go ahead mentioned the botched plastic surgery. I think I mentioned this earlier, but his third wife there, it was a very contentious divorce. He mentions in the memoir. You was mad for giving her too much and not fighting for more custody for his. And divorced number three. And then there's also at the end of marriage, number four, a phone sex tape scandal.

This is a little hard to follow looking at it now, because this is sort of pre-internet as his marriage is disintegrating. He starts engaging. Phone sex. Yeah. And women can call and leave messages. And he talks about this and his book. He's got a buddy in Dallas, who's in on the nightlife scene. He meets some women that way.

They have access to this number. But then as the messages are being exchanged and being recorded, they get leaked the national inquire and he gets hounded by the paparazzi for. A few years in the mid nineties as being a kind of pervert, they bring lawsuits, he ends up settling out of court. He says in the book, I could have won those fights.

I was just being taken advantage of. He also does say, this is consenting adults. This is safe. I'm not hurting anybody. This is just phone sex. What's wrong here. It doesn't matter. Once it enters the public sphere. It's no. Well, he clearly regrets that this got out. I don't know if he actually regretted.

Engaging in phone sex. Yeah. But it's pretty clearly a regret. So that's what I got into the public regrets. Did you have anything to add

Amit: just the estrangement

Michael: from the first child? Yeah. And it does sound like he did do some work to try to re-establish relationships with the next two children on the private regrets.

I didn't see any. Obvious here. I was trying to imagine if there's something I didn't hear that he regretted that we

Amit: haven't already talked about. Yeah. I don't know.

Michael: He doesn't come across as a regretful man to me in as much as he does have regrets, he seems pretty forthcoming. Yeah. I find him authentic and honest.

I mean,

that's

Amit: a, that's a

Michael: very strong word. I got to say. That's maybe because. Entered into this question of who is Kenny Rogers, really? This whole research for this episode. Yeah. Very skeptical that I was going to like him at all. Huh? Yeah, because again, I can't emphasize this enough. I do not care for the man's music other than the condition song.

I liked it as like a gateway drug to country when I was like 11 or 12 years old. But now if I hear that song, it kind of annoys me and it's overplayed poppiness I guess I have an admiration for it, but if I sing along to it, it's going to be in a kind of ironic way. Yeah. I like it.

Amit: You still like it? I still like it and all its pop Gloria the same way.

I like friends in low places. Yeah.

Michael: That's a good competitor. Catch me in the right mood and I'm going to sing along to it. You know, if other people are into it and everybody's singing along in a bar, I'm not gonna shuffle off to a corner and, you know, wait it out and I'll probably participate, but I just, I, I'm not a normal.

Yeah. So,

Amit: yeah, I don't know. I didn't see much on the private regrets. We talked about a lot of my guests

Michael: leading up to this category already kind of covered it. Yeah. All right. Our next category is good dreams or bad dreams, and this is not about personal perception, but rather, does this person look haunted?

Did they have that look in the eye? I got to say. I didn't see it. I think. Good dreams. You didn't see it. No, I can't

Amit: describe it, but I see it a little bit. Interesting. I see a little kind of that thing where your eyes are squinted, but they're still wide and it's just an intuition.

Michael: I expect it in the countries.

Like it's supposed to be there. And there's certainly some evidence in his life that it's, that

Amit: are, but maybe, I don't know, maybe I'm describing it to this like fear of being alone and this conflict between settling and exploring. But I feel like I saw a little bit of it in the eye.

Michael: It's rare that you and I disagree on this, usually you and I, our intuition as a line.

But I, my intuition didn't see it, I guess. And I'm not going strongly

Amit: bad. I'm just going to just below the line to where I'm I have to pick a side. I'm going bad dream.

Michael: All right. The second to last category, cocktail, coffee or cannabis. This is where we ask, which one of these substances would we most want to do with this person?

And

Amit: did you say he was, he was not much of a drinker

Michael: himself. His dad was an alcoholic and a bad drunk, and he was very deliberate about not drinking. In fact, that's one of the ways he won over. His father-in-law okay. Two years is younger. And his mother-in-law when he married his fifth wife, he had a house where they didn't drink any.

And when he invited people in there weren't cocaine LST. Any of that? No, it sounds, I mean, I saw an interview where he told a story about doing Mescalin once and he said that was an interesting experience and it was really great. And then it got weird and then I didn't need to do it again. So it sounded to me like he actually had a really healthy relationship with mind altering self.

Amit: Okay. So where are you going? Coffee,

Michael: cannabis. I cheated because I want to both smoke a joint and have a cup of coffee with Kenny Rogers. And the reason is one I'm interested in his stories. And I kind of just want to hear about who else he hung out with. And I hadn't heard about, and I kind of want that to come rapid-fire with a cup of coffee.

I also. I wonder if my take on his music is just, I don't expect that I'll ever encounter any of his songs on the radio or on a Spotify playlist and say, oh, that's actually really good, but I could see him sitting down with a guitar in front of me and it sort of rougher unpolished appeals to me in a kind of more intimate way and be like, Oh, the raw musical talent is better than I appreciated.

And I'd like to get high and listen. Okay.

Amit: I went simpler. I wanted to drink with him for the same reasons you said to, to tell the stories. I also wanted the gambler experience of like, for a taste of your whiskey. Yeah. I'll give you some advice. So I, but I pictured it, like when I was, when I was writing my answers, I pictured it.

Like we were having a neat whiskey in this kind of like seventies bar and Kenny was wearing a white suit. Yeah. But I'm still wearing

Michael: this Astro's hat near LL bean. Yeah. Don't reveal the

Amit: Astros. Sorry.

Michael: Cause it's not baseball cap and you're a,

Amit: and now it's okay. But yeah, that picture, that

Michael: like that the white suit and a drink is a nice image.

Yeah. You know, you said you went simpler. I mean, have I made Kenny Rogers too complicated in this whole thing? This is not the whole idea, I guess it is, but I don't know. I really, I, I found myself more intrigued than I expected. Yeah. Well, hell we've arrived. Our final category named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said in varsity blues.

I don't want your life based on everything we've talked about. The big question is, do you want this life Hammad? Am I going first? Do you want Kenny Rogers? His life? So I guess I am going for. You can throw it back to me. If you want to think about it some more. No,

Amit: I'm I'm ready. It seemed like an obvious yes.

Kind of the same way that I thought that man in the mirror and how going message kind of initially seemed like obvious yeses, but there's a couple of things that doesn't sit. Well, one, his life as an artist was about other people's stuff. And he wasn't a songwriter. He was a singer. Mostly. Maybe he wrote some

Michael: originals.

He did.

Amit: Artistry to me, if I were to ever have the possibility of it, it needs to be more autobiographical or from my perspective,

Michael: originality matters.

Amit: Originality matters to me. Yeah. I also think that we spent a lot of time on the marriages and wives. The five is not so much of a big deal, but it's.

Endless, you know, from age 19 to death with barely a gap, the trial and error part of it, then not much room for self exploration and making these big mistakes. I mean, it's not, it's obviously not how I've lived or how I live right now, but I don't like the lack of time to sort of read it. Governor and really figure out what's inside of you in between those.

I also don't like the idea of four broken vows. I've said that before. Yeah. I mean, there's so many things to like about Kenny. I liked that he did so much more than

Michael: music. Do you like him?

Amit: And yeah. So those two things really stick out to me and stick out stronger to me than the totality of the other. So I'm saying, no, I don't want your life.

Michael: Yeah, it's a good case. I do not like the broken vowed thing. I have to imagine anybody who is. On stage and touring that yes, you can tell yourself I'm doing it for the fans. Well, after you've crossed the a hundred million, 150 200 million mark, but that there's actually also a need for validation that is still driving you.

And those two things can code. Let's do things can be there at the same time. And it looks like that also is happening in the marriage that there's just an unfulfilled need. I think that's really common in life, kind of, no matter what I think we are all dealing with unmet and unfulfilled needs and that there's an insatiability to the human condition, but in as much as that's like in the challenge of life has to understand those needs and to meet them in more satiated sustained ways.

It seemed like he talked himself into a certain level of stability and certainly had a, ultimately a committed marriage. You make a really good case and it is the counter to a lot of other things that are working here. He's got good stories. The friendships thing really resonates big time for me. I like his variety of friendships and in different contexts.

Comfort with other men and women who he gets to know throughout his life. That part is very attractive. The original artists thing also because you're right. I mean, he's got some original songs, no question about it, but is not known for the original songs he's known for the performance. Geez, man. I, I felt like I was leaning.

Yes. And now having, hear your talk about it, I'm not sure where I'm at with this because it does somehow fall short for me, despite. The accolades, despite the financial success, despite how much is adored, it's almost like those things delivered such a strong message to his inner life that it left no room for any other question of, but is there some other thing that's meaningful?

And I feel like he's looking for that and I'm not convinced he got it.

Amit: So I'm Kenny Rogers.

Michael: Do you want my life?

I don't want to say no, just to be a contrarian. I feel like at some point I need to say the quest is over. This is as good as it gets, and this is good. So I'm going to say. I want this life. It has some real problems for me, and it has some things that are not complete, that are not fulfilled that are not even deep enough for the life.

I really think I want, but I think if this isn't good enough, then I kind of feel like maybe I'm holding myself to some crazy expectation of what it's all supposed to mean. And I, at some point I need to call it and say, this is good enough. Yeah. Good. That you reason your way through. Yeah, but it's always, I'm not I'm right there.

Amit: You gotta be right there. I mean, that's, we're talking about famous people, which they all should seem obvious yeses, but the fact that, that it frequently ends up in the middle zone is

Michael: interesting. Yes. But I also wish I had a. Criteria for distinguishing the superficial accolades from the real meaningful, good stuff of what this is all about in life,

Amit: right?

And maybe you will, maybe the longer we do this show, you will maybe you'll have more definitive answers and clear ones as we get to it. But we are workshopping ourselves here to Michael, like this isn't just for other people. And so they're not going to be short, tried answers, and there's going to be questions that we're asking ourselves through that.

So good for you for

Michael: struggling. Okay. All right. I'm going to feel good enough about that today. Yeah. Well, hell we're at the end of our show Amit, your Kenny Rogers died and you are in the afternoon with St.

Amit: Peter St. Peter as our Unitarian proxy for,

Michael: for the afterlife. Yeah. And you have an opportunity to make your pitch Florida.

Amit: St Peter. The story of my life is God. There's so many stories around my life. You see where, where I started with how much money my family started with and where I ended up. It is quite in ascendancy. I don't think that is why I'm here making my case. I think the case I'm making is one of. Joy and reach.

So my songs reached the world. I was part of a song called we are the worlds, but that's not what I'm talking about. That I have sung ballads that have literally been played probably in every country in the world. And some of these songs are about sorrow, but what they bring. Is joy. I also want to make the case of individual lives, that I was very close to.

I had close relationships with a long list of other superstars, and I'm not just talking about good old boys. I do edit with some amazing women. I had friendships with. Ashley's directors, actors, but I brought them joy. So my life is not about this cycle and overcoming the odds. My life was about spreading joy.

Let me

Michael: Thank you for listening to this episode of famous and ingrained. If you're enjoying our show, please go to apple podcasts to rate and review. You can sign up for our mailing list@famousandgravy.com and you can follow us on Twitter at famous and grainy. Our show was co-created by Amik Kapore and me Michael Osborne, mixing mastering and sound design by Morgan Honaker graphic design by Brandon Burke and original music by Kevin.

Thank you again for listening and hope to see you next time.