020 Notorious Dissenter Transcript (Ruth Bader Ginsburg)

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Michael: This person died in 2020 age, 87. She once said her writing style was partly inspired by Vladimir nav, who she studied literature under at Cornell.

Friend: Wow. That's a lot of different words. Danielle Steele,

Michael: not Danielle Steele. Her high school nickname was Kiki.

Friend: Oh boy. Uh, Is Jackie Collins still alive, not Jackie Collins.

Michael: She was soft spoken and prized collegiality.

Friend: She went to college. That's what that means. It gotta go.

Michael: She prized it. Apparently.

Friend: It's a hard one. oh, Angela Landsbury. Oh, great. Guess

Michael: in the mid 20 teens, her nickname and likeness became an internet sensation.

Friend: Oh, so she's a meme. Now I'm feeling just really stupid.

Michael: In 2016, she called Donald Trump a quote faker, but she later said her comments were ill advised.

Friend: Wow. I I'm, I I'm so mad at myself for not knowing right now. I'm gonna go way out on a star wars limb and say Carrie Fisher,

Michael: not Carrie Fisher. She was barely five feet tall and weighed about a hundred pounds.

Friend: I, I don't, I don't have the first clue. Why am I blanking on this? Oh my God. Is it Betty White?

Michael: Not Betty White. She was the second woman to serve on the Supreme court and a pioneering advocate for women's rights,

Friend: man RBG. Oh my God. RBG, the notorious RBG, Ruth Slater Ginsburg.

Michael: Today's dead. Celebrity is Ruth Bader Ginsburg.

Archival: I ask no favor for my sex. All I ask of our brethren is that they take their feet off our next associate justice of the Supreme court of the United States. Ruth Bader gin.

Michael: Welcome to famous and gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. My name is omit Capor. And on this show, we go through a series of categories about multiple aspects of a famous person's life. We want to figure out the things in life that we would actually desire and ultimately answer a big question. Would I want that life today?

Ruth Bader Ginsburg died 2020 age, 87. First line of the obituary.

Amit: No, no, we're not ready. Okay. we have to talk about this first. Why are we doing this show?

Michael: This is different than anything else we've done before. I've been thinking far different, far different in some ways. And here's, I think what's different from every other famous and gravy conversation.

You and I have had. I think people are still grieving her loss. I think if you look at almost every other dead celebrity we've had on famous and gravy, some people didn't even know that they had died. And even when they did, they were like, oh, that's too bad. But there is real collective emotional pain and, and grief.

Correct.

Amit: I mean, it passes our one year test, but it's fresh and we're still seeing

Michael: it play out. And the, the circumstances around the timing of her death are Shakespearean. You know, I mean, it's like this unbelievably high stakes passing. And I feel like maybe this, this is one of the reasons I wanna do Ruth Bader Ginsburg on famous and gravy is that, you know, to the extent that I have any grieving to do, like, I wanna do it here.

Yeah.

Amit: Fair enough. So with you, you know, the question on my mind as well. Is we, a lot of times pick figures that are in the middle, right. We've talked about, you know, the 30% VanDerBeek rule. Yeah. We've never talked about the other side of it. You know, what, if somebody is so apparently flawless. Hmm. What is the point of this conversation?

Well, I don't

Michael: know. We've done Nelson Mandela. We did Neil Armstrong. We've done people who are lionized as heroes. I mean, that's not what we do here. Exactly. We certainly look at imutable heroic qualities and try and figure out what do I aspire to? What does my inner best self look like? But I think there's also questions about the pathway there and, you know, how would it have felt like along the way that are entirely separate from how we as a society should feel about this person, you know, desirability and lionization are to me two different things.

Yeah. That's a very good point. First line of the obituary. Should we do this now? Are

Amit: you asking my permission now? I am

Michael: fucking a, you

Amit: cut me because I interrupted. Yeah, I, I broke protocol. No, it was, if this was the army, I would be doing a hundred

Michael: pushups. Who's the right thing to do.

Amit: okay. Yes. Okay. Let's get to the first category.

Michael: Hello, famous and gravy listeners. Michael Osborne here. Sorry for the interjection. But there is actually one more thing to say before we get to the first category. Amit and I recorded this conversation about Ruth Bader Ginsburg. Before news broke that the us Supreme court is likely to overturn Roe V.

Wade at the time that we're releasing this episode, the overturning of Roe V. Wade is still not final, but as you can imagine, Amit and I spent some time in this conversation talking about the future of reproductive rights. Please just keep that in mind as you listen, this conversation happened before that news broke.

Okay. No more interjects. Let's get back to the show. All right. First category, first line of her obituary, Ruth Bader Ginsburg, the second woman to serve on the Supreme court and a pioneering advocate of women's rights, who in her ninth decade became a much younger generation's unlikely cultural icon died on Friday at her home in Washington.

She was 87. Yeah. That sums it

Amit: up. Yeah. Yeah. I think so. Second woman. Yes. Pioneering advocate. Absolutely. Yeah. Why she was such a big deal was true. Her as extension into pop culture, which is completely unusual for a Supreme court justice. I like the summation

Michael: I do too. Here's my quibble with it. What it's missing to me is, uh, personality.

Like I could have used patient maybe or deliberative. I mean, there are qualities about her as a woman that are not captured in here. This is about what she did, not who she was. That's qual there's no

Amit: picture painted, right? Yeah. Cause they say pioneering advocate. Yeah. Right. Her physical stature was part of the whole story.

It was part of the whole irony of being named after the notorious B I G right.

Michael: It's not a major mark against, but it's my quibble with the first line of this obituary. So I have my score. You have other things you wanna say about this.

Amit: I like how you put it. And I think you reached to something that was somewhere in my head and I couldn't get it out.

Is that it wasn't colorful. It didn't paint a picture of who this woman was and why she was such a phenom. Yeah. So I'm

Michael: with you on that. Okay. I'm gonna give you my score. Okay. I give it an. I think it's got a lot. I like it's captures a tremendous amount. It's accurate. It's pretty comprehensive. And it does get at stature and power, but it, for me lacks

Amit: color.

So it's a tight eight. So I'll take your exact same reasons before you brought up that point. I probably would've been in a date. Yeah, but I'm gonna go seven color is everything in the obituary, the way that you and I see it. That's why we play this category. Yeah. And so I think it needs a little bit more of a negative.

That makes sense.

Michael: All right. Category two, five things. I love about you here. Amit and I work together to figure out five reasons why we love this person and why we should be talking about them. Gosh, lot to say here. Do you wanna lead or do

Amit: you want me to lead? I'm happy to lead. I'm gonna go with the, one of the more obvious ones, but one that cannot be ignored style.

Do

Michael: you mean rhetorical style or like

Amit: dress style or what dress style? The earrings. Yes. That was part of her look from very early on. Yeah. To have those, I, I don't know the name, the kind of the droopy. Do you know the word? I need another vocabulary lesson. What do you call the thing that she was most famous for?

Michael: When I went to Google and said, how do you say it? It's not jab it's I think it's JBO JBO

Amit: or Shabo. So that's what I mean, a singular piece of

Michael: we're talking about the, the, the collar that you wear with the spring color, the collar, which we

Amit: just simplified into a collar. I think most of the reporting did.

Yeah, but it has a name Ajak she owned that motherfucker.

Michael: Yeah. And had a lot of 'em and like wore different ones for different

Amit: occasions and no one can ever claim it again. Yeah. That's pretty awesome. That

Michael: is her corner. Fucking a and so in terms of desirability, is that about like the ability to look through your closet and say, this is the right thing for today?

Is that what you admire?

Amit: So with the chabos, so many people like mailed her them and she must have had hundreds. Yeah. But she had her favorites and she chose different colors for different things that she was doing. If she was dissenting, if she was doing a majority opinion, right. Like she had a thing for it.

Right. But everyone knows her from, you know, kind of her rise. And especially after her death, that's what was commemorated in all of the images was the Chabo. Yeah. So on the desirability aspect, yes, it is having a style that is so unique that you can put up one piece of clothing and say, oh, that's Ruth Baker Ginsburg.

And this is not just over the robe. Right. You see those clips of her going to the opera? Yes. And so forth. She's an extremely well dressed woman. Amen.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I, I have more to say about this in a later category. Great one,

Amit: right outta the gate. Well done. Yeah. And I'm, I'm looking for Jibo. Yeah, no, we'll find it.

There's an arts school question. We in Dallas today. Yeah. Okay. This could be the beginning of a new me. Yeah.

Michael: you'll

Amit: find it. Okay. You for number

Michael: two. Okay. Also a little bit in the very obvious I wrote strategic argumentation. You know, I come from a family of lawyers, my dad, my brother, my grandfather, my cousin.

I mean, they're all over the place and my family and I absolutely flirted with the ideal of law. There is a lot to be said for what it means to construct an argument, right. How to put it together and arrange the. bits of evidence. And to tell a story with that evidence that leads to a conclusion that results in ideally justice.

She did that obviously as a lawyer and as a Supreme court justice, you know, I knew that she was a feminist icon, but I, until getting ready for this episode was not aware of her work with the a C L U during the 1970s. And I didn't realize quite what a ginormous figure she was in terms of legal reform through the 1970s.

I mean, she argued in front of the Supreme court, six different times in one, five cases in the 1970s. So I admire that. I wish I could put together a damn good argument. And it's not even just like putting together an argument in a legal case. It's also using all of those cases to result in societal change and to say like, let me assemble all of this over the course of years to fight for gender equality.

So yes, strategic argumentation. A little bit vanilla in a way, but I feel like it had to be pointed out. Yeah, it's

Amit: a good number two. Thank you. All right. What do you got for number three friendship with Scalia. That was my number three too. It was your number three. Yeah. Oh yeah. That's do we have to do like a jinx?

1, 2, 3, 4, 5. Okay. Well, let's go for it. Let's talk about it. What do you love about it? I love it in a lot of ways. He

Michael: was a very famous conservative justice argumentative guy. There's a phrase that gets used in with the Supreme court that I've heard a lot lately, which is that it has neither, uh, purse nor sword.

So the Supreme court doesn't have an army, so no sword and doesn't have access to, you know, treasury. So it doesn't have a pocket book. So all the Supreme court really has is its reputation. And you know, I think the justices are knowledgeable about that. So why that's important and how that relates to the friendship with Scalia is that I think so much of our political lives these days optimize for division like both political parties benefit from a lot of hatred at the other side.

And so. I look at politics in the media today as sort of optimizing for this grand battle between the left and right, the Supreme court ideally is a little bit different and their friendship captures that, that they liked each other genuinely liked each other, genuinely hung out, went to the opera together, rode on elephants together.

They were like looking for ways to agree, even though they had major disagreements. And I like those friendships, you know, I like friendships where I don't agree with what you're saying, but there's like, obviously respect. And I like that he made her laugh. Like you see that a few times. Like she thinks he's a funny guy.

Yeah. And so to like, see her laugh, cuz Kalia is cracking her up. There's just something so goddamn charming about that. Right. Are you two ever gonna agree on big issues and still maintain the friendship? We agree on a whole lot of stuff we do. Ruth is really bad. Only on the knee jerk stuff. She is.

So that's

Amit: what I love. I just love the anti divisiveness of it. I think exactly. As you said, no swords, no treasury. Yeah. Right. It's a lower stakes thing. We're not talking about, you know, Putin becoming friends with Zelensky. Right, right. We're not talking about those type of opposition. So it, it is a certain category of opposition and there, there is place in this world for fuck you you're wrong.

But you mentioned Linsky and Putin yes. Yeah. But this wasn't one of them and to do it at such a high level. Yeah. And such a visible level, I think is great symbolism.

Michael: Yeah. Isn't that great? Okay. It's like, I guess four is yours. So. I'm looking for the right phrasing here. You and I talked about this, this came up big time in the Shirley temple episode that I don't want somebody to be famous for just one thing.

Well, I want there to be an upward staircase in life. Right? And I love her upward staircase that she is one of the very few women at Harvard law in her young years. And she's a mom at the time. Then she is with the a C L U for a number of years and leading the charge to reform the laws of in the United States in terms of the feminist movement.

And then she's a judge and then she's a Supreme poor justice, and then a pop culture icon. So there is like this constant evolution and growing in stature and importance and becoming more and more interesting as a human being, as she ages, which I think is incredible like that. I cannot imagine. You know, a kind of better upward trajectory where it's all building on the previous thing you were doing, but it sort of like has new light and new importance and new relevance, you know, with each new stage.

Yeah. And

Amit: fandom. Yes. Like who would've predicted fandom. Yes. I

Michael: mean, I don't know who the second most famous Supreme court justice is or was when Ginsburg was alive. You know, her fame had breakout, stardom. It was a little bit Yogi Bera that way. Yes. You know what I mean? Famous for

Amit: reasons beyond. Yeah. So the thing you liked was the upward

Michael: staircase or at least it just was interesting decade to decade, chapter to chapter.

Yeah. It happened to culminate in fandom. And I like that, you know, her fame such as, it was sort of reached a peak towards the end, but overall it's the multiple acts thing. That's really my number four. Yeah. You know, whether it involves fame or not is separate from desirability. I just want multiple acts in my life, you know, reinventions that's what life should be all about.

So that's my number four. I like it.

Amit: Number five. I think mine is the prequel to years. So you started off, you said she went to

Michael: Harvard and eventually Columbia, but

Amit: yeah, eventually Columbia, well, Cornell, undergrad, Harvard and Columbia sort of combined law school. I wanna go before that classically hot chick.

Yeah.

Michael: I'm I don't know how to

Amit: respond to that. Well, obviously you are by laughter.

Michael: I just didn't. I just didn't think you were gonna, but

Amit: I have a reason behind this. You talk, so yeah, please. This was my reaction. When you brought up that Ebert number three. Kiki as her friends knew her then yeah. One just unambiguously.

Good looking. yeah, she was, she was hot. Yes. But she also did these very girly girl things. Yeah. She was a high school cheerleader. Yes. When she got to Cornell, she was in a sorority. Yeah. So here's what I like about it. sorry.

Michael: Classic hot chick. I'm talking about RBG. I've got the giggles a little bit, but so my point is

Amit: this. Yeah. Is that, it's exactly what you say in the multiple acts, but I'm taking it to an earlier stage. Yeah. Right. You have, as, as a parent now in the 2020s, you may look and say, I would love my daughter to be a Supreme court justice.

So, you know, in that's true high school, she's certainly not gonna be a cheerleader. Right. Okay. Kiki was all of these things. Yeah. You know, she was hot. She was extremely studious. Yes. Right. Cheerleader, sorority, all those just very like American girly girl. Boxes. Yeah. She checked and look at the path

Michael: after that.

Are you mean, are you making a case for combining sort of sexual attractiveness with like all these other great qualities of what it means to be a person divorced from sex and you know, sexual

Amit: attractive? No, that's not the point I'm making at all. Okay. As a side point, I, I, but do you know what I'm trying to ask?

Okay. As a side point, I think there is nothing greater than somebody who's both attractive and brilliant. No, I'm making the point of not predestined that you would, if I just give you a profile and I say, this person was an extremely attractive high school cheer student cheerleader, and she was a cheerleader and she was in a sorority.

You fill in the rest of the story. You'd probably fill in something to do with, you know, a job, a Marriot at a certain age and all these things, which she was. But your, the likelihood that you would end that story in being one of the most powerful women of the century yeah. Is pretty unlikely. Yeah.

Michael: That's great.

And that's why I like about it. Okay. Let's review. So we had style, we had strategic argumentation. We had friendship with Scalia. Number four was mini acts or chapters in life. And number five was hot check, hot check, but not free determined.

Actually

Amit: the way I wrote it down is I wrote classically hot,

Michael: classically hot.

That's great. Let's move on. Category three, Malkovich Malkovich. This category is named after the movie, Bing John Malkovich, in which people take a little portal into John Mavis mind, and they can have a front row seat to his experiences. The point of those categories to imagine what sort of memories or experiences might have been interesting.

What is your Maich moment for Ruth Bader Ginsburg? Here's

Amit: the one I landed on. I got this from the documentary, but I'd heard it reference also. So picture the scene. She. Tremendously hard, regardless of whatever age she was at. Yeah. And she would often be in her chambers, you know, reading or writing, and sometimes she'd go and she'd be there till two in the morning.

Like her grandkids would talk about this, that like they,

Michael: they said that she sometimes had to be like literally picked up and taken

Amit: home. That's that's the Maich moment. Cause Marty would come literally her husband. Yeah. To the chambers at two or three in the morning and like pick her up, actually let her up and be like, honey, it's time to go home.

Well, there's so many aspects of it. One just the sheer. Focus that she had to even work those hours. Yeah. Right. You read about some of these opinion pieces and, and books on focus. And that degree of focus is, is like being on a certain drug it's flow state. Yeah. Flow state. It really is flow state. Yeah. So to, to have that and have it be so important, I think is one and then to have your beloved be the one to physically come and say time to go,

Michael: honey, I'm picking you up and we are going home and you're sleeping.

Yeah.

Amit: That's connection. That's intimacy like none other, and it's cute as hell. Yeah. There's so much importance going on. Yeah. Around it. So yes. Flow intimacy, cuteness significance, all wrapped up into that moment.

Michael: That's a good Milkovich moment. That's a good one. I really struggled with my Milkovich moment because.

I'm gonna save a lot of conversation that I want to have with you for the regrets category. But I mentioned a second ago that there's a Shakespearean quality to her death. One piece of that story for me is the change in narrative, around bill Clinton that most former presidents tend to experience more favorable ratings as time goes on.

And there has been a real, I think, shift in narrative, around bill Clinton and some of his sexual improprieties. I think that it is a very interesting fact that Ginsburg, this incredibly important feminist icon was appointed by bill Clinton. And I wonder when in her life she looked back at that fact that I got here because of this guy and just thought, huh?

Huh? I think it's probably somewhere in the lead up to Trump's election in 2016 and looking at the Clintons and, and seeing that race narrow and Titan is my milk of it. Moment. I wonder what she thought about, like in

Amit: 2016, looking back at 1993.

Michael: Yeah. I am proud to nominate this pathbreaking attorney advocate and judge to be the 107th justice to the United States Supreme court.

Mr. President, I am grateful beyond measure for the confidence you have placed in me. And I will strive with all that. I have to live up to your expectations in making this appointment. and just that, that was the president who then put her in this position as the senior member, as the, you know, one of the most important voices on the court, even if commonly in the minority and dissenting.

That's what I got. Yeah. I have a lot of thoughts on that. Yeah. I'd imagine you

Amit: do one is, could be just the universe, right? The man, like it's a, it's a cosmic appointment. Yeah. That the man points her who is a rising feminist icon is just gonna become much more. So I don't think bill Clinton is anti-feminist by any means, but certainly his acts speak to anything.

But feminists

Michael: Clinton, you know, was in some ways a sleeve ball, but also, you know, responsible for some meaningful action. One of which being appointing Ruth Bader Ginsburg to the court, you know, I, I just, I, I wonder how she sees that in herself, that her, her own. Positioning

Amit: in that story. Yeah. And I'm kind of curious too about, you know, just God as a puppet yes.

In that moment. And just like channeling himself through bill Clinton, unbeknownst to bill Clinton. It's because you've got a bit of a story pass. That's only gonna get worse. Yeah. And these are your pre reparations.

Michael: Do you remember the movie being John Malkovich? I do. And you remember John Cusack's character?

Amit: Like what his profession was? Not exactly something with a lot of filing cabinets. He was a puppeteer. Ah, that's right. I just

Michael: wanted to point that out. Okay. God, as a puppeteer, I like that. All right. Category four, love and marriage. How many marriages also, how many kids and is there anything public about these relationships?

I think we should maybe just make this fast and great one marriage to Martin in 1954, Ruth was 21 years old. They met when she was 17. He died in 2010. Ruth was 77. She lived 10 more years as a widow. They were married a total of 56 years. And by all accounts, an unbelievably great marriage. Yes. Like he was progressive before his time there was equality in the marriage.

He did all the cooking. A lot of the care taking when her career was advancing, he said, great. He was an enormous champion of her and even helped sort of lobby to get her on the court. And when the appointment became available in the early nineties, and also sounds like just a hilarious gregarious, you know, kind of contrast to her.

We talked earlier about the contrast between Ginsburg and Scalia. I think there's some of that contrast there too, between Ruth and Martin and looks like just an unbelievably fucking great marriage.

Amit: Yeah. You also need to point out too. You can say that he carried a lot of the weight yeah. During this, but like in those early years, when they're finishing up law school and he has testicular cancer and there is a child, yes.

She is like carrying 45 plates at once. But all these things seem to strengthen rather than weaken the marriage. And I think that is one of the incredible

Michael: parts of it. I was having a conversation with my wife, cuz we had our anniversary recently. She got drunk and cried and it was very sweet and wonderful.

And I, I think one of the things that I look for in a marriage is due to people lift each other up is the, some greater than the individual parts. And. boy, do I see that here? You know, boy, do I see these two people lifting each other up for 56 years? And it's, it's a fucking love story. And I had no idea. I would've liked to have met this guy.

I would've liked to had dinner at the Ginsburg household. And I love everything about this extremely high scores for the marriage record.

Amit: Yeah. And when you say her ideas about gender equality, I think it's also really important to note her ideas were just about fairness, right? Granted, like she's a feminist icon, but she also argued on behalf of men many times who were denied things like child support when their spouse died.

Yeah. And so forth. So fairness. Based on gender was her big thing. I'm glad you brought that up.

Michael: I meant to bring up that point with strategic argumentation, that one of the ways in which she's able to get the laws changed in the Supreme court to have favorable rulings in the 1970s is by bringing cases where look, how men are being discriminated against because of these fucked up laws in the books.

Because her whole point was, if I can get the nine male justices on the Supreme court to see how laws are biased against men, then I can fight for gender equality. That's brilliant. So on

Amit: the love and marriage category, yeah. Let's make it about you for a second. So how old were you when you

Michael: met Allison?

Well, this is kind of corny. I've actually known her since I was, uh, in grade school. Okay. So I've known her since I was like,

Amit: oh, nine or 10 years old. Okay. The first time you dated, that was in

Michael: college. I was, I think 20. She was 1916 years. So

Amit: now you're married 16 years. Mm-hmm . Okay. So I want you to make the argument for.

Meeting somebody at 17 or 20. And marrying them and sticking with them through the rest of their life. You know, we talk about new chapters a lot. Mm-hmm, , that's the theme of this show. I know in my group of friends, especially those of us that got married later, like in their thirties or me not, not at all, we, a lot of the ways we rationalize it is what we had more life to live.

Yeah. Right. We learned more about ourselves as we went on different experiences and the decision I was capable of making at 17 or 20 are a hundred percent different than they are for the me. Now,

Michael: I think that's the tension of the thing of getting together young. I do feel like there are days when I absolutely wonder, like, did I experiment with myself enough in young adulthood?

Did I try myself out in different relationships enough? And I think I, Allison, if you were to ask her in her more honest moments would say she has some of those same questions, so that I think we're aware of that, that argument. And I think it has a lot of validity, I think the flip side. And I think where she, and I would probably both agree, cuz I think.

Amit: You and you

Michael: and Ruth or you and Allison? Me and Allison. Okay. And Ruth and, and Marty,

Amit: myself set you guys up for dinner in heaven or

Michael: I look forward to it. Apparently Marty's gotta cook French cuisine. The argument for it is, is that you figure out how to reinvent yourself within the marriage. You do have to carve out some space for independence and individual growth while still holding hands.

Right. You take on new risks and you experiment with your identity and you, you. Throw yourself into creative endeavors or whatever the hell it is that this whole like, sort of human lifetime experience is all about. But you build up enough of a foundation of trust that you can do that with some sort of calculated risk.

I always say stick with somebody long enough to fall out of love with them, and then fall back in love with them. You know, not just like the curve balls, life throws you, but even more than that, the, I don't know the experience of like, I don't wanna be with you today. I'm fucking sick of you. I'm gonna go hike in the woods for three weeks or I'm gonna go, you know, hang out with the guys for, or whatever.

It is a very reassuring thing when, when you're able to do that and then come back to the relationship and say, it turns out I do still love you. I just needed some space. And I think that's a hard thing to negotiate. And I think that earlier you figure that out in the relationship, the more you optimize for long term thing, I don't know.

That's a lot, but does that answer the question?

Amit: Yeah. It's I, if I could pair it down to a few words, it's growing together. Yes. Right. Cause the, the argument that I started with is that there's an absence of growth. Yes. And what you were saying is that there's growing

Michael: together. Yes. But I also do take the point that like you're growing together is hard.

It's harder. Like I, there, and there's a part of me that's envious of the, you know, men and women. I know who had a longer experience of singlehood.

Amit: Many of them are envious of the absence of choice too, you know, ly commitment and just being able to, to grow without that being sort of a looming worry. Yes.

Because you're confident enough in, in your partner. Yeah. You told me that you saw some Iberian qualities in me indeed. In my view of art and, and I'm gonna pass that compliment back that I see some Ruth and Marty qualities in you and Allison.

Michael: Well, thanks man. You're welcome. I'll take that. Okay. Category five net worth Google the net worth of any person.

And you can figure out an answer. I had a harder time finding a good answer on that

Amit: too. I did. There was a range that was given a lot I saw had come up enough. I

Michael: think eight is about sound sounds about right. I don't know why, but it was not as easily knowable as this category usually is, but 8 million.

Yeah. That's great.

Amit: That's great. That's a good number. I mean, the salary is very public. She did get a lot of cash prizes for, you know, these awards that she won. My understanding is almost all of that though. She donated to her

Michael: causes. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't think this woman was driven by by money, but, you know, given her power and given her intellect and given her influence, I, I really like the number 8 million.

She's able to live very comfortably in Washington DC. And apparently I saw this too. Her housekeeper was part of the will. okay. Shall we move on? Yes. All right. Category six, Simpsons, SNL, or hall of fame. This category is a measure of how famous a person is. We include both guest appearances on SNL and the Simpsons, as well as impersonations.

I'll go through this really quick SNL. There's the Kate McKinnon impersonation, which is hilarious. Yes.

Amit: You know,

Michael: I like my men, like I like my decisions. Five, four, that's a third degree begins burn.

There's a really great RBG rap in 2018. I don't know if you've seen this. Yes. Yeah. Pete Davidson. So that's SNL. I didn't find any other impersonations. Did she ever show up? I never saw that either, which I would've liked, but I didn't see it. In fact, in the documentary, she wasn't even aware of the, like you see her watching the Kate McKinnon, impersonation and laughing.

Yes. Which I think is kind of. Endearing, the Simpsons did a thing. I think this is right after Trump's election, but before he had taken office and it was his first 100 days in that episode, Trump appoints Ivanka to replace RBG. And it's pretty funny. The new Supreme court justice Ivanka takes Ruth Bader Ginsburg's seat on the bench.

You can buy Ivanka's robe with gavel earrings for only 1000 rubles. You said you'd replace me with Goland. And she's also mentioned in another episode or two, including Ned's notable lefties episode. Remember the left tos came up somewhere else. So she's mentioned a handful of times on the Simpsons, but never voiced herself.

And in terms of hall of fame, I did see a national women's hall of fame that she was inducted to in 2002, pretty damn famous. And I mean, I guess this is probably the place that mentioned the notorious RBG thing. Yes. Yeah. Right. I mean, there there's this law student at the time who made it a meme and then it kind of took off and then it became a blog and a book.

Anyway, I, I wonder like in 2005, how many people would've recognized Ruth bit Ginsburg's name on the street, only

Amit: Washington insiders. And that's my political nerds. That's my

Michael: hunch. So, I mean, the breakout fame really is a 2000 teens phenomenon, I

Amit: guess. Yes. A couple of other things in the Lego movie, two, there is a Lego figurine of Ruth Bader Ginsburg that is shown in the sitcom, the good place.

Did you ever watch that Ken Damson in the afterlife, there is, uh, a character in there who is like the gossipy one. Yeah. And so they ask her, what is the craziest celebrity secret celebrity hookup? And the woman says it was RBG and Drake ,

Michael: that's pretty good.

Amit: So, so back to halls of fame, you said the national women's hall of fame, there were also God, they list like the honorary degrees, which.

Occupy the rest of the show. Yeah. If I said them, but I'm not going to, but I will say first woman ever to lion state and first Jewish person ever to lion state after her death.

Michael: I did see that. Yeah. All right. Famous, famous, famous. She's clearly famous. Last of the easily knowable categories. Yes. Category seven.

Over, under, in this category, we look at the life expectancy for a person when they were born. Did they beat the house odds? And as a measure of grace, she had to have just crushed it. Yes. Life expectancy for women in the us born in 1933 was 65.1. She died at 87 having survived two bouts of cancer previously 22 years over.

So crushed it. And I would also say unbelievably grace. Yeah. It's

Amit: almost like peak grace. Yes. In, in those years, it's, it's a life lesson on

Michael: how to age and how to die. Her sort

Amit: of celebrity stardom rises. Her significance rises as a widow. Yeah. And goddamn just the, the definition of grace

Michael: almost. Yeah. Let's pause for a word from our sponsor.

Amit: Michael. I've got a question for you. Yeah. Uh, if you could take today's dead celebrity to any retail store, what would it be?

Michael: Ooh, I think I would take 'em to half price books on it. Half price books. price. Absolutely.

Amit: Explain yourself. Sorry.

Michael: Well, I, I love shopping for books with people. Shopping for books is always stimulates interesting conversation, right?

You browse the different aisles and you see, you know, different topics come to mind. Have you ever read this author? Have you ever read that book? It's just a good place to talk and wander and discover. So yeah, absolutely half price books is an awesome venue to connect with people, to discover books that you've long forgotten about or that you haven't read.

And it's all a great price. Frugality is something I desire in life.

Amit: It really is an attractive

Michael: quality on you. Thank you. Thank you.

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Michael: Hey, I'm Gianna. Deedo from so sorry for your lost podcast. I bet you already know what we talk about with that title. That's right. We talk about grief and much like your friends here at famous and gravy. We weave in how celebrities interact with that too. Highlighting the grief in the news each week and going over topic surrounding grief.

That should be talked about more, but just aren't. If you've experienced a loss and wanna join a community of others who have two, come on over to so sorry for your loss podcast, we are not your average grief group. That's so sorry for your loss podcast, wherever you listen to your podcast and find me on social at so sorry with Gianna.

Okay. Thus for in our episode, we have gotten to really sort of the easily knowable information at this point in famous and gravy, we start asking a series of introspective questions. Trying to get at what it would've been like to have been this person. First of these categories is man in the mirror.

What did they think of their own reflection? Amit? What do you think? Ruth Bader Ginsburg thought of her reflection in the mirror?

Amit: Tough one, because there was the style that I brought up, but she was also prior to this pop culture era, she was quite shy and she even still was then. Yeah. You know, she's very, always appears kind of nervous even like when speaking, but it's in her, her body language too.

I don't think she really gave a shit. Yeah. About her reflection. I think she looked and saw back all of what she is capable of. and what she has done or going to be doing. And that was

Michael: enough. So you're saying she liked her reflection. She liked her reflection. I didn't think about it nearly as much as you did.

I thought the style alone was enough for me to give it a pretty confident, yes. The chabos as we were discussing the chabos

Amit: Jibos the collars, there were times, however that she did not wear a Aja bow.

Michael: Indeed. Presumably brushing her teeth. I'm sure. Well, there's the end of the day. You gotta dust those things off.

We haven't talked about the glasses. Do do no, we haven't. I'm not sure that there is much to talk about, but they are large. Yes. Do we make anything of those? Of large glasses. Are they like a statement piece? Like it's you almost forget that there are eyes behind those glasses because the, the glass itself takes up so much space on the face.

So I, does that tell us anything one way or the other about man in the mirror? To me,

Amit: that's, that's just another style piece. Yeah, that's the earrings and the JBO, it's a

Michael: loud choice, but I can't tell in which direction I can't tell if it's like, I wanna hide more my eyes or I want to bring them even more forward or it's neither of

Amit: those.

It's gotta be the latter

Michael: you think? So bring them even more forward. Yeah. Okay. Okay. Then I think then that, that gives me even more confidence in a yes. Yeah.

Amit: I'll I'll sign off on that. What about height?

Michael: What about it? Any height issues? I don't know the people who I've met who are shorter. Like, it seems like I've had more than one conversation.

Where it's not like they necessarily say, I wish I were taller, but there is a, a little bit of an insecurity that I think can come along with that. I think that actually goes for very, very tall people, too men and women that there's, uh, a little bit of a discomfort with being too far outside the quote unquote

norm,

Amit: I think being short is just N.

it's just genetics. It's a hand you or Delta. Mm. Okay. And a lot of the pop science tells us that it's a disadvantage in your ability to have success, to have authority. Yeah. And I think I like it when that is proven

Michael: wrong. Yeah.

Amit: I agree. And I don't know. I don't know how we get over that bias. I mean, I

Michael: can't say it's a, I don't know how we get over any bias.

I mean, you know, when it comes to gender or race or disabilities or age or whatever, I mean, I, look, I think one of the things I love about Ruth bitter Ginsburg is that she's fighting for equality. And, you know, I wish in society at large, we paid more attention to similarities and not differences. And I think that that's trite and corny and we can say that all we want, but I, I feel like that is where this starts.

All right. Next category, outgoing message. Like man, in the mirror, we're wondering how they felt about the sound of their own voice when they heard it on an answering machine, whether they would even record it for an outgoing voicemail. What do you got here? I went, no. Yeah. I had a slight, no, too. What was your reasoning?

Amit: I think it's, it's, she's very slow and enunciates a lot and speaks softly. Yeah. And I don't think that's the character she's playing. I think it's just, she's not that comfortable. Speaking at volumes, it's

Michael: even a thing with people who worked with her, where she would like have very long pauses in the middle of her sentences.

I had no for a slightly different reason. I think she's got a real infatuation with the written word. This gets back to my strategic argumentation point. I think she just would prefer language, be communicated as written down and read than oral arguments. Like you have to slow down and put your thoughts and ideas together with a certain pace.

There is magic that happens when you put pen to paper.

Amit: That's true. I mean, that's why journaling is such a psychiatric exercise. Right, right. So we're agreed there that she didn't record her own for that reason. What about the other, would she from a nobility standpoint?

Michael: Oh, I think she's just in with the common person.

Yes. And would be willing to say you've reached the voice mailbox of the notorious RBG, next category, regrets, public or private. What we really want to know is what, if anything kept this person awake at night? I got three things. Okay. Fire, two of 'em are very related. I think this is the big thing. Our decision not to step down as a Supreme court justice, when Obama was president, there were calls for it.

Apparently Obama even met with her. And she said, for as long as I'm sharp and can do this, I want to be doing this. She did say in September of 2020, and this was sort of her last message to the world. Quote, my fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed. And of course that didn't happen.

Mitch McConnell and the Republican Senate confirmed with Trump's nomination of Amy Comey Barrett in the six weeks between Ginsburg's death and the election of Joe Biden. And that, of course, for people who follow this stuff stood in contrast to when Scalia died in 2016 and Mitch McConnell wouldn't even have a hearing for Obama's nominat.

I'm spacing on his name. Merick Garland. Thank you. Who eventually was for, for Obama's nomination for merit Garland, who is now our attorney general. This is the Shakespeare stuff to close the loop on. Why it's a regret in saying my most fervent wish is that I will not be replaced until a new president is installed.

She is, I think, expressing a regret that she didn't step down because she knew that she knew the Republicans were gonna be able to nominate somebody who ideologically she disagreed with and thus ensuring a more conservative court for, and she made this statement when exactly, yeah, I read this and a news article had said, this was her quote, unquote last message to the world.

Yes. You know, she's what, 83, when Trump is elected and is doing exercises and is staying in good shape. But she's at an age when, you know, it's looking like death isn't too far away. So I, I think the regret probably. in as much as it is, one begins with the election of Donald Trump, because she realizes I've gotta stay alive four years.

If I'm, if democratic president is gonna nominate my successor and then that doesn't happen. Well, she stays alive. She takes like 3.7,

Amit: five

Michael: years. Yeah. That's why it's like fucking like a crazy story. I mean, you can't make this shit up. Yes. I think this is the reason I think that there are people certainly on the left Democrats who still feel traumatized by her not premature death, but the timing of her death.

Right. That, that she's this unbelievably important figure on the court. Nobody could possibly step into those shoes. And then in dying weeks before there's a new president elected, there was a kind of frustration, pain, trauma, grieving, whatever that, that I think is persisted to this day and may persist for who knows

Amit: how long.

So yeah, there's trauma engraving, but are they mad at. Are, are

Michael: her supporters mad at her? That's a good question. Probably on some level probably. I mean, I don't know. I think that if you were to really narrow it down to reproductive rights, which is absolutely something that, you know, we may see change, you are going to see 20 states pass laws, banning abortion outright, because they know that there are now gonna be five votes on the Supreme court to overturn Roe V Wade.

And that's why these seats matter so much. If you put the whole story together here, a little bit appointed by bill Clinton who comes to be a more problematic figure as her tenure on the court continues the politics swing in, in a direction opposite of her political ideology and become more cons. It becomes a more conservative court.

And in particular women's reproductive rights become increasingly under threat through really the early part of the 21st century. And then in the weeks. Before it looks like there's gonna be a democratic president who can appoint her successor. She dies. So the question in my mind is, is that thought in her mind, on her deathbed had to be yeah.

Had to be, well, I just wanna sit with that though, right? Like we've talked about a lot, that's desirable about this life. The idea of having some major, historically consequential regret, like on your

Amit: deathbed, doesn't that? Oh, literally on the deathbed.

Michael: Doesn't that fucking terrify you, that idea that you did like, oh fuck, I don't want to die.

That thought in my

Amit: head she had to have,

Michael: I don't know, this is a not knowable. We're not in her mind. There is a possibility that she's also able to step outside of history and be like, and have some humility around what this all means.

Amit: Yeah. I don't know. She possibility at us right now and say, you dumb, fuck.

This is a part of a master plan. Oh, she's absolutely. She's been doing that for the last hour. just like, she's just saying, well, just watch this play out. Yeah,

Michael: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. I mean, I look, there is no enough history, right? I don't know. All right. I got too boring calling Trump a faker. Yeah. In 2016, she later said it was ill-advised, but she said something else before that was disparaging.

I forget what it was. And then there was a follow up interview and that's where she called him a faker. She didn't back down from her words. And then later said, I shouldn't have done this. This is outside of her constitutional duty. Yeah. And, and, and it threatens the integrity of the court in some way. So it's a regret and it's that she just did.

Yeah, I think so. I, I, I think that given the politics at the moment, it, you know, it's, it's a sort of understandable because I think that Trump, for her represented, you know, so much she'd fought against in her career and so much against of what she stood for. I think she perceived among other things, a tremendous amount of misogyny, uh, and who Trump was and what his politics

Amit: were about.

And she, she regrets that only because

Michael: it undermines the, the credibility of the court, the whole not purse, not sword thing that the court ultimately only has its reputation by giving these disparaging remarks. She opens the door for a credible argument that you shouldn't, you, you are not in a position to weigh in with, you know, impartiality or whatever with judicial discretion as to whether or not, you know, these questions are right or wrong.

Yeah. It made it difficult yes. On her. And I think she understood that.

Amit: You gotta to wonder going back to your first point, if like the actual thought. Going through her head and in the final moments was if that fucking faker appoint somebody in the next six

Michael: weeks. Yeah. Yeah. Look, this is not crazy to speculate on that possibility.

Yeah. I mean, and, and fact feels like human nature that that's, that's the thought that's going through your mind is you go into the afterlife, whatever that is. We'll get to St. Peter later. Yeah.

Amit: If your mind goes with you,

Michael: who knows? All right. Last one I had was, she was not on board with Roe V. Wade. She was in a way she certainly supported reproductive rights, but she said the court was too sweeping.

She anticipated a strong anti-abortion political groundswell and backlash that has absolutely emerged. And she said that she believed that in as much as the, the court changes policy, it ought to be case by case slow and deliberative, you know, steady as she goes, kinds of change, not sweeping policy.

Exactly. Exactly. And that was that's my understanding of why she was actually not in favor of the actual ruling of Roe V. Wade, even though she's obviously a champion of reproductive rights. That's what I got on regrets. I mean, that's, that's the elephant in the room. Yeah. Okay. Next category then. Good dreams.

Bad dreams. Does this person have a haunted look in the eye? Something that suggests in are turmoil and or demons, unresolved trauma. I've gotta take here. I can lead. You can lead. You can lead, went bad. And here's my case. I don't see a traumatized look, but I do see her as devoted to the art of argumentation and argumentation to me is something that keeps me up at night.

I replay conversations I have where I'm like trying to make a case or trying to make a point. And I'm trying to like scour my psyche and my intellect for more arguments to persuade somebody about something. That's what her whole life is about. And I think she worked into the flow stage into the wee hours of the, of the morning.

She didn't like to get up early in the morning. So I think bad dreams.

Amit: Yeah. I also went bad. The short evidence losing her sister as an infant and losing her mother at the age of 16.

Michael: Yeah. On her. On the day of her high school graduation. Yes.

Amit: Yeah. So that, I mean, that can come to you in your dreams throughout life, but that's not the prevailing argument I'm making, I'm going poor hygiene.

Yeah. She, she worked really late. Went to bed. Irregular hours. Didn't sleep much. Yeah. I mean, she

Michael: was, she was at one point going to Harvard law school, taking care of a baby, taking care of a husband who had testicular cancer and taking his notes for him, for his Harvard classes. I mean, Jesus fucking Christ.

That's a lot of plates. Yeah. And so that's gonna lead to poor

Amit: sleep hygiene. Yeah. Inconsistent sleep and wake times, maybe not reading something light before bed.

Michael: Yeah. So we both came to bad dreams. I did have one other thing I wanted to say about this. I really, I want to have that conversation with her, you know, like, do you regret that or not like, boy, that's the question that she's just gonna like leave history

Amit: with.

You wanna have that question with her in the

Michael: afterlife? Yeah. And that's actually a pretty good segue into a cocktail coffee or cannabis, which one of these would we most want to have done with our dead celebrity? This may be a question of what drug sounds the most interesting or fun, or maybe what lingering curiosity do we have about this person?

So I'll just steal this and some sort of on a roll here. I went Irish coffee Uhhuh, which is a little bit of a cheat that is cheat. I needed her to loosen up a little bit. I want the intellect, but boy, I want an answer to that question. I wanna know. And here's how I, here's how I've come to think of this, this, this question about whether or not she regrets not stepping down.

I, I do think that it has something to do with your ability to step outside of history and say that. Humanity and culture and society doesn't have a beginning and an end. And I want to know if she's got the ability to have inner peace around what happened and step outside of that and say, I'm just one person.

Ultimately. Yes, I had powered. Yes. My life was consequential. I want to know one way or another how she feels about that. And I want to get a little drunk and I want to have a like, sort of smart conversation about that. So I don't know, couple shots of Jameson. And a nice, you know, Grande.

Amit: All right. Well, after that, send her over to my house.

Cause we are gonna smoke some joints. Is that right? Ruth and I are going to, I selected cannabis one, if I

Michael: can make poor, lady's not gonna make it. How, yeah. Talk about POS sleep

Amit: hygiene. One. When I did hear her laugh in some of those Scalia things or with her granddaughter. Fantastic laugh. Yeah. Fantastic, lovely laugh.

If we can, if I can get some of that, then that may be all I need to like just awaken some, some dead serotonin inside of me, but I also want to have the conversation. I want to be a boundless conversation about fairness. She devoted her life to fairness, mostly around gender. What I just talked to you about with short people.

That's just another tiny example and that's there, there's just so much unfairness everywhere. Yeah. In every moment of the universe. And so I wanna talk about it from a really like global or, or almost galactic perspective. Is that where,

Michael: like, what does justice really mean?

Amit: Is, is it ever achievable? Is there ever a point that we.

Done the best we can. Or is it an ongoing fight that's gonna happen in perpetuity? And I'm not saying I'm gonna believe her opinion, especially because she's smoking

Michael: marijuana. Yeah. Why, why pot to get

Amit: outta all this? because I think you've gotta erase some boundaries. You have to be able to take some assumptions and restrictions out of your head.

Yeah. And be able to think and go out there. Yeah. And we can put on some good jazz music we can put on some miles or something.

Michael: Fairness, equality, justice, I guess all of those things are kind of jumbled in my mind as one idea. But I guess the way you were describing the second ago as if there's some resolution as if there's some, you know, ideal, I think that that's an ephemeral concept, but I would've liked to have hurt her, like take a stab at it.

Amit: And I wanna her to project 200 years in the future. Yeah. So with her achievements as, as an equalizer, I just wanna have that philosophical conversation.

Michael: Yeah. Okay. We're here. The VanDerBeek named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said varsity blues. I don't want your life. Amit, Ruth bad Ginsburg. Do you want her life?

Amit: I never start out with a yes or no. Yeah. So let me tell you, I don't like the job very much. I certainly like the outcomes it produced, but the volumes and volumes of reading and writing and the solitude that goes along with that, I don't

Michael: like that very much. I agree. It's it looks lonely and it also looks like heavy in a burden.

Amit: Yeah. I'm glad there are, there are people that are gifted to do it, but goddamn everything else. I just can't say no. The chapters, the marriage, the unexpected outcome, the impact on the world, the setting example for. Young girls and women and men, and affecting a policy that is life changing for many individuals.

I can't say no to it. I can't like with Nelson Mandela, I had a problem with that much sacrifice in being that important into which you don't have choice and you don't have agency

Michael: and you said no to Mandela. And I said, no to

Amit: Mandela. And I said, yes. Yeah. So I, yeah, I have to say, yes. I mean, this is a model human being.

And I, I see this one regret that we have that, that can affect the world for a while. But I think what she's achieved before that outweighs that possibility.

Michael: And I'm sure she could tell herself that story and probably did.

Amit: Yeah. But I, you know, I, I see a model life with a little glitch and forget all of that.

Like if she was not a Supreme court justice, if she wasn't even a lawyer, the model marriage, that alone is something to say yes to a Vander

Michael: be. So you're AEs MES. On the fence, I'm on the fence. I actually really like your point about, I don't like the job. I mean, I think that it's one thing to interpret the law and I, and I think it's another thing to Rever it and I think it's yet another thing to shape it.

And beside what's right and wrong.

I mean, I, you know, we all have a sense of what's right and wrong. We all have an idea the way the world's supposed to be. And we should fight for that. When I said yes to Nelson Mandela. I mean, I, there's a moment where I was feeling a, that I do think it's important that we retain idealism into old age and Ruth bit Ginsburg does that, but I don't like the job.

I don't really love the idea of weighing in on right and wrong, even though I certainly have my strong opinions. and I really don't like the possibility of a deathbed moment where you second guess the whole thing I don't, I don't think she did that. I, I think that'd be going too far, but what's, what's sort of raging in my mind is as an inner battle here, you gotta have some humility to be able to step outside of history and say, I'm just one person.

And also sit on the Supreme court and make decisions about how law is interpreted and what's fair and what's right. And what's just, I don't know if you can do both things. The marriage is unbelievable. The family life is unbelievable. The upward staircase is unbelievable, but the poor sleep and the tragic ending and the responsibility to weigh in on, not just.

Gender and equality, but like justice broadly in a wide range of domains and places. I don't want that responsibility. I think I'm a no, there's something that looks just fucking exhausting to me about that. And I'm not sure that's how I would want to dedicate my life. Even if I do have my own passions and idealism about the way I'd like things to go.

I, I, I kind of feel like I'm aiming for a different thing. I don't wanna lay it in bed at night. Having arguments in my head, you know, ask me tomorrow and I might be a yes, but today I'm a no. Okay.

Amit: We have a yes and a no.

Michael: Did that make sense? My case for the, no, it all made

Amit: sense. I'm not sure about the humility

Michael: argument.

I don't, I don't see her as like. Displaying arrogance or anything like that. But I do see a level of self importance there that I, that I don't want. I don't see her, you know, pounding her chest about how great she is. But I also, I, I don't, I don't think you get that job without some level of self importance.

Yeah.

Amit: So you're, you're saying it's not so much of a personality choice. It's what she had to have to have the job.

Michael: Yeah. I think that's right. Do you feel any more, like a little less grief having had this conversation? No,

no,

Amit: it's, it's not played out yet, but it's never played out.

Michael: I don't know. I, I do. Do you?

Yeah, I do. I do. I think that the idea that she might have regretted the nature of her death, I needed to look at it. And the more I look at it, I doubt she did. And I didn't, that would've existed only in my head. as a, as a possibility of how she's telling her own story and how history should you know, we'll look at this life.

It's got a little bit less, I don't know, exclusivity to it as an idea. Having had the conversation with you. I understand. So yeah, I feel a little less grief. Okay. I think we're at the Pearl gates. You wanna take this? Yeah. Okay. You are Ruth Bader Ginsburg. You've died and ascended and St. Peter, the Unitarian proxy for the afterlife.

Is there greeting you at the Pearl gates? It's your opportunity to make your argument, your pitch

Amit: St. Peter RBG here. If this has to be one of my long written opinions, then there's clearly something structurally wrong in your administration. so let's just assume that I'm gonna be let in, but however, let me tell you something.

Your job essentially is to pass judgment on whether someone should pass through or not. And that should be based on their actions entirely, maybe 50, 60 years ago, you would look at men and women differently. On their right to pass through these gates. And I'm pretty damn sure you don't right now, it's all on the basis of action and intention of how you lived your life.

That was me. Let me in.

Michael: Thank you so much for listening to this episode of famous and gravy. If you are enjoying our show, then please tell your friends, tell your parents, tell your children, tell your colleagues, uh, tell everybody, just tell everybody about our show podcast by and large, grow by a word of mouth and we need your help.

Also, you can contact us@helloatfamousandgravy.com. Feel free to send us an email. Why not? You can also find us on Twitter. Our Twitter handle is at famous and gravy. And please sign up for our newsletter. It's on our website, famous and gravy.com. Famous and gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me Michael Osborne.

This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss and Morgan Ker original theme music by Kevin Strang. And thanks also to our sponsor, have price books. And again, please tell people about our show. Thank you again for listening. We'll see you next time.