022 Hungarian Socialite Transcript (Zsa Zsa Gabor)

Listen to the full episode and see show notes at this link.

Michael: This person died in 2016, age 99, she operated a male order cosmetics company. She once offered $1 million to anyone who could prove she had had a facelift

Friend: who would be makeup. B makeupy. I like that word going to like an Avon lady. I don't know who Mary Kay,

Michael: not Mary Kay, but good guess from the 1950s into the 1990s, she was on scores of television programs. Talk shows, game shows, comedy specials, westerns, and episodic dramas,

Friend: Joan river. It's not Joan Rivers, right? It's not Joan Rivers.

Michael: We've already done judge rivers, but , she appeared as a nightclub manager in Orson Wells' 1958 classic touch of evil and the same year as a sexy alien in queen of outer space.

I don't know those movies, but now I want, I really wanna watch this sexy space alien.

In 1989, she was arrested for slapping a police officer.

Friend: Ah, Elizabeth Taylor. Oh, so close. She was married at least eight times and called everyone darling. Oh, Zsa Zsa Gabor Zsa Zsa Gabor

Michael: today's dead. Celebrity is Zsa Zsa Gabor.

Friend: Yay. That's so exciting. .

Found audio: See, where does the money come from? Honey? I work every day of my life. Mm-hmm and most of these things I bought, not all, but most of them and I made, I never stopped since working and I really wanted to be a vet nerd. Yeah. That's that's yeah. If you hadn't gone into acting, is there a chance that you would've would've done that?

I own my life. I still am. I have five docs at home and two horses. I would love to do that, but I have no time because I have to support all the animals. And so that costs lots of money. So I work as an actress. What can you do? Yeah,

Michael: welcome to famous and gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

Amit: My name is Amit Kapoor.

Michael: And on this show, we go through a series of categories about multiple aspects of a famous person's life. We want to figure out the things in life that. Would actually desire and ultimately answer a big question. Would I want that life today?

Zsa Zsa Gabor died 2016 age 99. First line of the obituary GBO, the Hungarian actress whose self parenting glamor and revolving door marriages to millionaires put a luster of American celebrity on a long. But only modestly successful career in movies and television died on Sunday in Los Angeles. She was 99.

Wow. Just

kick a woman while she's dead.

so you found it insulting? Yeah. Self. Absolutely. Where did the

Amit: offense begin self parenting? The luster only moderate success.

Michael: I think all these things are true though.

Amit: Maybe it was the way you

Michael: read it. I don't know. I actually think that this is a very nuanced and very accurate capturing of who this person was.

I think there is absolutely a parody of one's self aspect to who she becomes later in life. The revolving door marriages. I mean, that was a joke that she was in on, and everybody was making basically from the mid sixties on. And her career really was only modestly successful. Like she wasn't that big of a star.

I agree. But

Amit: did they say anything positive? I took away everything having a negative slant.

Michael: Yeah. That's a good point. I mean, put a luster of American celebrity.

Amit: What does that mean? Like a, a gloss make it look

Michael: shiny. Make fame look like a shiny Leary

Amit: object. Yes. She did that. It is attributing an accomplishment as well.

Yes, that's

Michael: my point. Yeah. I think that if there's anything in here that looks like praise, that's

Amit: it. Okay. I'm with you on that. I'm with you,

Michael: I'm also with you and that it's mostly an insulting first line of an obituary. Yeah.

Amit: Which I don't think is completely appropriate because not everyone hated her.

And I think very few people hated her. You can look back now and she wouldn't be relevant at all now. But I think people loved her. There

Michael: is a presumption in the first line of this obituary that American celebrity and Hollywood fame is a problem to be famous is a bad thing. Exactly. And to play up your fame is a bad

Amit: thing.

Yeah, it totally has a dingdong the witches dead feel to it.

Michael: yeah. Yeah. It's a good way of putting it. Where did it end

Amit: again? What was the last like

Michael: phrase long, but only modestly successful career in movies and television.

Amit: She was very successful at playing herself in getting that self air time. She

Michael: was in, in some ways a great TV interviewee.

I mean, I think that's a hard thing to kind of cram in here that that language is missing here. She was fun and good on playing herself on a talk show or on a game show. Our first guest tonight is, uh, one of the all time. Great talk show guests. She is also a prince. And the only woman I know named Jaja, ladies and gentlemen, please welcome Naja

Gur. Okay. I was starting off at a fairly high score. You've kind of talked me back a little bit. What are you given this?

Amit: I just find it too opinionated, which I don't like in the obituary. So I'm going for.

Michael: Wow. That's not. Somebody is here to defend Jaja. God, wait

Amit: a I'm to defend a

Michael: fair trial. You know, here's something I've been thinking about with this category, how much we're factoring in the challenge, like how difficult it is to capture somebody's, you know, life in the lead of the obituary in the first line.

Some people, I think it kind of writes themselves. I remember giving a high score for Nelson Mandela. I remember giving a high score for Neil a. Their accomplishments and why we know their names are kind of easy to describe in a sentence why we know who Jaja Gabor is. And what she's famous for is not easy to capture in one

Amit: sentence, but they didn't rise to the

Michael: challenge.

See, I disagree. I think they did. I'll settle on eight. I think that this is actually very accurate and we did a pretty good job of getting it by the way. Is that the biggest gap you and I have had between four point

Amit: spread? Yeah, I think so.

Michael: Should we talk about why we're doing this episode. I kind of think this was your idea.

Amit: It was my suggestion for a couple of reasons. She was very much a part of our childhoods, you know, after school TBS type of celebrity, most importantly is we talk about mixing categories of celebrity. Yeah. Right. We do athletes, musicians, movie stars, politicians, astronauts. Yes. Astronauts. So this is a category of celebrity that's untouched yet for us is the meta celebrity famous for being famous.

Michael: So I read a book about the GS and I've read a couple in preparing cuz one thing about Shaha GBO, there is no shortage of possible material,

which

Amit: is not the least bit G boring

Michael: I don't think this will be G boring. I did not know how many comparisons there were with the Kardashians. So I read this book called finding Ja.

By this guy named Sam stags, who lives in Dallas, by the way, he didn't like this idea of they're famous for being famous. He says on the contrary they were famous because they worked at their careers every hour, every day for close to a century, which I think is to your point about the obituary. There's not credit for, you know, the actual accomplishment of just being relevant and famous.

But here's the other line that I, I really wanted to bring. In terms of the comparison with the Kardashians, he's like sort of bashing them. And he says, perhaps the Kardashians and other vapid celebrities aspire to Gabor caliber. And Finese all of these, no doubt enrolled in Gabo 1 0 1, but they flunked the course.

Yeah.

Amit: The, I kind of agree with this comparison a little bit in that she was a personality, meaning that she was the combination of the looks, the story and how. Spoke about it. I

Michael: think it's really true. Like they were every, every sort of account I read was they kind of appeared on the social pages and were there forever more?

Amit: All of this is said in a New York times Obi way of a negative slant that. When we talk about fame on this show, pretty much everyone up to this point has brought a unique skill or accomplishment. That was what presented them into the spotlight. And they took it further for additional reasons or additional ways that they carried themselves.

But famous for being famous. What you're arguing is that there's no skill that actually elevates you to the level of. It's it's

Michael: sort of easy to play armchair psychology and say that there's something I don't know pathetic about that impulse to want to have attention and keep attention on you. I would not call it pathetic, but I do think that that's like the presumption of it, that there's something shallow about seeking and maintaining fame.

Amit: I agree. I think that's kind of a bullshit explanation, cuz I think it could be a pathway to your own inside self is getting external validation where you feel comfortable enough to actually start doing the inner work.

Michael: Yes, nobody is. I'm not sure that happened here.

Amit: Yeah. But nobody is born

Michael: enlightened.

Maybe that's some of why we're having this conversation. Uh, shall we get to the categories? Yes, please. All right. Category two, five things. I love about you here. Amit and I work together to get at five reasons why we're talking about this person. I would like you to start please

Amit: gladly. I found her very complimentary and charming on all of these talk show appearances that she did.

Her catch word was darling darling. She used words like adore and love. And she really like put a lot of air into those words, but a warm, like hugging air. I think she's just one of those people that, uh, if she's around somebody that she likes or respects, or is at least neutral towards, she lifts them.

Michael: Yeah. I agree with that. You know, where I actually saw that of all places was a Howard stern interview. Look at me with a princess princess Zaja Gur

Amit: and Jaja you for the fight with you. I love

Michael: you. You are not gonna fight with me tonight. We are gonna be lovers tonight. You, uh, I'm gonna say are the best things about you.

You do. She was very like putting them at ease and having fun, but like she plays tennis, you know, she matches you where you're. And I think complimentary is a good way of putting it. That's a great number one, Al. Thank you, dear Michael . Um, we'll call this number. She threw a great party. She did. She was legendary for her parties.

Often showed up in life magazine. I mean, people were like, oh, J's having a party. Fuck. Yeah, there's a few that came up in this book I read. But this came up in the Diego Madonna episode where he, you know, paid for everybody to show up at his wedding. Yes. I think it's a great thing to throw a great party.

I think, you know, you have to be thoughtful. I think she was, I think you have to do exactly, as you said, like make everybody feel like they belong and that they're comfortable and that, you know, lifting everybody up. I like

Amit: it. I'm gonna say the other thing. I think that is important about being somebody who does create parties and hosts.

Great parties. Events are signposts of. It's where a lot of pictures are generated. It's where you answer the question. What do you do last month? What are you doing in the next six months? If you have an event or a party to go to, that's the signpost that you use, and somebody has to play that role of throwing really good parties.

And I think it's an Admiral thing to play

Michael: that role. That's a really good, that's a really good way of thinking about it. All right. What do you got next?

Amit: So mine, which will be our collective number three, anti ageist. Oh wow. There's a couple of ways to think about it. The downside view would be, you know, she had this thing about never revealing her age.

Mm-hmm even when she was in like her sixties, seventies, when she was really doing this major talk show circuit and Hollywood squares and all of that. So there was a little bit of like, she's concealing her age. She's always being youthful, but I think the positive side of that is she basically made old look fun.

I think that was really lacking in the culture back then, it's still lacking a lot in the culture now really up until things started to go south for her in the two thousands, it was always like I'm having the time of my life. And I think that was a great thing. And I I'll compare that to something I saw on Twitter.

It was about you wonder why our generation is so messed up around age and it went through all these like eighties and nineties sitcoms and showed the real ages of. The actors that are playing them, you would have a 45 year old playing like a grandpa in overalls who just like complains all the time and smokes a pipe and plays golf.

Like we had these very, yeah. The 9 0

Michael: 2 1 oh cast was like famously in their twenties and thirties. Yes. Like Luke Perry was in, I think his thirties when playing a high schooler.

Amit: Exactly. So you had that, right. You had that, this like, um, that you always have to play younger and younger in order to look fun.

Uh, yeah. And then you also had that the party. You know, after a certain age and that you're in the rocking chair and that was very much the TV culture at the time. And Joshua was the opposite of that. But isn't the retort

Michael: to that, that it's delusional. There's a whole lot about what she says that is not necessarily a reliable narrator and, and that's like, I don't wanna call it lie.

Number one. But certainly like, I don't know. Non-truth number one.

Amit: the story that I'm telling myself is that she knew exactly what age she was. And she was just playing around in this flirty game, but she was still giving this message of I'm having the time of my life. And that time is right now. At the time that she's on Letterman and Larry King and making all these flirty jokes and yeah.

And drawing all this attention to her, she's probably older than the entire cast of the golden girls. Yeah. But look at the difference on how they kind of presented the joy of life at a senior age. Could

Michael: we say young at

Amit: heart or is that no. Cause I think it's specifically not doing what you're supposed to be doing as an 80 year old woman

Michael: that I love that is outstanding and true to her.

Amit: Okay. So I think we're great. I think we can shake hands on number

Michael: three. I think so, too. All right. Number four. Yes. All right. Preparing for this episode really got me thinking about the very first famous and gravy episode with Robin leach. And when we got to the Vander beak, I said yes, because what if it's all just a big fucking joke?

There is a little bit of. It's a big fucking joke attitude with Jean GBO. Mm-hmm as you and I keep working on this show, I need to be able to revisit that idea. That ha life is a big fucking joke. Why am I taking that? So seriously? Yes. I want agency. Yes. There are things I want to accomplish. Yes. I have desires and I have goals and ah, part of me sometimes still feels like it's all just a big fucking joke.

And I think she really embodies.

Amit: Uh, I'm with you on that. And I, I think that's, there's a lot of Robin leach on that. Like, she would be exactly the one that Robin leach would profile. There is a certain desirability in those types of people that are just kind of fuck it all. But within boundaries, right?

You still maintain your ideal self. You're not hurting anyone. You're just kind of making a joke of the whole big thing. And I think it is something kind of to love about somebody. I'll tell you where I struggle with it though. It seems that there's too much defiance of meaning in the giant circus.

Michael: Maybe that's okay.

Maybe it is a construct, not even real.

Amit: Yeah. Meaning could just be a door that you accidentally opened or were shoved through. And if you never have to get anywhere near that door, I think that's kind of okay. Yeah.

Michael: Well, that's my number four. I do have, uh, a number five, but perhaps you'd like to propose a number five.

My number five

Amit: was confidence. And this is gonna be very specifically in speaking and just how quickly she could respond to any question lobbied at her. I mean, she was basically, uh, stand up comic facing a heckler all the time and every single ball thrown at her, she swung and hit a line drive. Yeah. And for, you know, a woman of her era that's damn impressive.

There's a difference between confidence and arrogance. And I didn't see hers as arrogance.

Michael: I would actually sign off on that number five and just add a little asterisks to it and say confident and funny. She's actually really fucking funny. Yeah. There's some great Zippy one liners and is quick. And so George went to London to play one of his king authors.

So to said, Jaja, would you like to come on a show called bachelor's Haven? I, so they'll laughter bachelor's Haven. Bachelor's Haven. Next day, I got life cover look cover. I got MGM studio contract. Long term, just for being on this one show. Yeah, but I said such outrageous thing. Somebody said, for example, what you do, if you break up the engagement, you have to give back, the ring says, you must give back the ring, but keep the stones, things like that.

category three Malkovich Malkovich. This category is named after the movie being John Malcovich in which people take a portal into John Mavis head where they can have a front row seat right behind his eyes. And know what it's like to have his experiences. What do you got? I

Amit: got one, but I want you to go, all

Michael: right.

Her career in the fifties is actually sort of respectable. She does this movie. Molan Rouge, the original Mullan Rouge with John Houston. Who's this famous director and gets really positive reviews. Then Orson Wells asked her to have a small role in that movie touch of evil, which is also kind of like, you know, artistic.

That same year she does queen of outer space. And I don't know if you've watched the trailer. This movie is fucking ridiculous. It's almost looks like soft core porn for the 1950s.

Amit: It's like those Austin Powers, the FBOs aren't they called like the Austin Powers montages of the FBOs. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Michael: Yeah. My Maich moment is when she was presented with that script and she said, yes, I'll take on that role. Landing on an unknown planet. They are captured by long limb beauties and the queen of our space is Gabo. There's a lot going on in her life. Around this time. One of her marriages is falling apart.

There's a very scandalous figure she gets involved with in the late fifties, something about saying yes to this movie and her career does this hard, right turn that never really comes back from what the fuck was going through her head when she said, yeah, I'd like to be the star of queen of outer space.

What other careers are comparable to the extent that. Kardashian comparisons with the G BOS. I was like, whose acting career was on this upward trajectory of boy, they're knocking it outta the park. And then just like totally went sideways. The best they came up with was Nicholas cage.

Amit: And the upward trajectory of Nicholas cage was leaving Las Vegas.

Michael: I mean, he won an Oscar yeah. In like 2004 or something. And then like started doing all these fucking terrible movies and has been, I mean, almost the parody of

Amit: himself. So what makes this a Alvi moment is you wanna see the calculation that she's making in saying yes. Yeah. It's an interesting narrative when you pose that question, because it's very easy to see how 40 years later you end up as a regular on Hollywood squares.

Like if it were a jeopardy question about like, this is how you end up as a regular on Hollywood squares. And the correct answer is what is accept the leader role in queen from outer

Michael: space. . It's a lot of game shows going into that little thought experiment. I think

Amit: in game shows,

Michael: what do you got from Malish?

Amit: So I think I need to clarify that Malish is aren't always good. It is what is often the most unique experience that they may have had in their life or something that is such an odd combination of sensation or decision making that you kind of wanna see how it's done. So I made that precursor because this is not a happy one.

The next category is love and marriage. And so we will get into that long storied past of hers, but two of her husbands, George Sanders, and the other one, I believe his name was Jack Ryan. Correct. So

Michael: the inventor of the Barbie doll, he was

Amit: a VP for Mattel. Yeah. So they both killed themselves Sanders in 72 and Ryan in 91, both after she had been married to them.

And, and by no means, am I implying that she had any role to doing it, but this is somebody that she was close to and loved

Michael: Sanders. She describes as the love of her life. Yeah. What I

Amit: think is. Really unique and very interesting. And I think probably valuable to the mental health study of people in the human condition is to be on the other side of it twice.

Like you remember, we talked about in Joan Rivers, like how terrible it must be to be on the other side of suicide. Yeah. And we probably both have people that are friends or friends of friends that have been on the other side of it. But to be on the other side of it twice, you have either a take or a numbness that nobody else has.

And I think what's uniquely interesting about it in the study of mental illness and depression and suicide. Is that a lot of the terrible dark thinking that goes into suicidality is either you have such a deep, sharp pain that you need to end, or also you just. Others to know how much pain that you are in or implicitly in some less developed cases that they put you in.

And so, no matter what, the person on the other side of suicide receives all those messages, because they're just gonna assume all of it. And I think it could be, uh, really uniquely valuable. It shouldn't be public per se, to know what it's like to be on the other side of it twice.

Michael: I don't know what to say.

That's a heavy one, man, but that's a good Milkovich moment. That's a good Milkovich moment. All right. Category four, love and marriage.

Amit: This might be the entire show. I also got married a couple of times as you know, a couple

Michael: how many times? Actually

Amit: only eight, only eight

Michael: as long is very well to the most wonderful man on the world.

How many marriages also, how many kids, is there anything public about these relationships?

Amit: I mean, I think you, you do have to auction your style through

Michael: them. Well, I can't even pronounce all their names. And there's even a question about how many there were. And there's also a question of how old she was.

Sometimes she says I was 15 when I got married to the first guy, this author claims she was 18, but here we go. Marriage. Number one, Burham B E L. G's a Turkish diplomat and Budapest, 1937 to 41 is somewhere around 18 or 19 to 23 years old. Some accounts had her at 15 years old marriage, number two, Conrad Hilton of the hotel fame that lasted from 1942 to 1947.

Jaja is 25 to 30 by my math. This marriage did result in her one child, a daughter Francesca, and will return to that in a second. Cuz there's some complicated shit. Then George Sanders, who's the actor, uh, who we were discussing a moment ago from 1949 to 54. Jaja is 32 to 37. George is also the one who later married.

Jo's sister Magda. Then let's see investor industrialist Herber hunter from 1962 to 66. She's 45 to 49. Oil magnate. Joshua cosin Jr. From 66 to 67. She's 49 to 50 Jack Ryan. The toy designer who helped create, not just Barbie, but also Ken there's some question about whether he came up with Barbie, but I think he definitely gets credit for Ken that's from 1975 to 76.

She's 58 to 59. Michael. O'Hara a divorce lawyer who she met while divorcing Jack Ryan, her divorce flare. Uh, 1976 to 82, she is 59 to age 65, the one husband who she says, I don't have a good relationship with at the rest of 'em. She says, good relationship. Then there's this weird one, Filipe de Alba, who is a Mexican actor and they got married, but they weren't necessarily an international waters.

And she was still kind. They think married to O'Hara. So they got an old, almost exactly after it happened, but she's around 66 when that goes down. And then the prince Frederick prince VA Holt 1986 to 2016. She is 69 when she marries him and is married to him until age 99. One note on the prince. Boy, it doesn't sound like a good marriage from what I read.

So even though the final husband does last 30 years and every other husband in here is five years or less, he seemed like a weirdo. Yeah. More than that, I think he is kind of a Charlotte's end. There's also a little bit of a Casey caseum thing. He shut out Francesca, uh, and, and limited interaction as. Is aging.

Amit: Yeah. And he was a, he was a grifter and a schemer too. Yes. He claimed an he to some throne somewhere that he was, that he was bought, basically. Yeah. So he started, he offered to adopt adult basically so that they could be the children of royalty. I

Michael: mean the book I, I read about the G BOS, like this guy could not be more disparaging about what a prick he was and, and it, for all the wrong reasons and Joshua maybe married him only for the title.

However, it did last 30 years. Okay. Okay. Do we wanna talk about the paternity around Francesca first? Because it's not an easy story to tell. Jaja gets pregnant as the marriage is disintegrating. And by some accounts is having a fairly active sex life outside of the marriage claimed in her 91 autobiography that she was raped by Conrad Hilton, her husband, that was the first time that claim was made.

And I think we have to honor. When Francesca was born, the divorce had been finalized. She did put Conrad Hilton's name on the birth certificate and he never disputed it. However, he had basically no relationship and left her estranged and Francesca never really had a dad and nobody ever stepped up to be like a father in any kind of stepfather or meaningful.

What kind of mother are you Jeha are you, uh, pretty strict with your daughter? I, I used to think I'm a good mother and I'm, I don't know anymore. What kind of a mother I am. I don't think I'm strict enough, but after France has come too strict. So who knows the answer nowaday? You mean you're not as strict as your mother was?

Of course not, but of course in France, cuz Asia, I was already married. well, that's true. So, but my husband was very strict with me. so what the fuck to make of all this?

Amit: Yeah, I'll pose it in a question for you. So a lot of times we've seen in the celebrities we talk about, we've seen a lot of multiple marriages and there's been a pattern after a certain threshold that we're like, oh, that sucks because they.

Seems like they just kept setting themselves up for disappointment. They had to break vows. There was heartbreak, you know, anytime we saw these kind of high numbers in the 3, 4, 5, yeah. Categories of marriage, often, those all ended well, but that's also you and I taking marriage seriously. yeah. Like what about this?

What about that? There's Z you just take marriage no different than you take a boyfriend. I kinda like it. It doesn't bother me that much. It really doesn't.

Michael: It's kind of silly. I, I don't know. See, here's the thing it's like, cuz I do think like if she describes her third husband, George Sanders as being the love of her life and that marriage just integrates, it does feel like.

Somewhere after that is when this begins to become kind of a joke. The number of marriages in the Gabor family overall is absurd. It's like north of 20, between the four women and the three sisters and the mother. Yes. Maybe the first three need to be a real, real attempt at a swing. But after that

Amit: you've been 10 run rolled out anyways.

So just like, you know, throw wild pitches. Yeah.

Michael: It does feel like a statement of that. Marriage is a joke. Like on one hand, it's sort of funny to me, but, uh, so is Jaja Gur. She's kind of fucking funny to me. And like, this is a series of actions that make me take her less seriously as a person, which I'm not sure how healthy that is.

We

Amit: had a big problem with Kenny Rogers, five marriages,

Michael: the cultural context matters here, marriage in Hollywood, in the fifties and sixties and seventies during a, a period of like, you know, I don't know, peak patriarchy. I mean, maybe it's not peak patriarchy. I wanna be a little bit careful there. I don't have a problem where she did it when she did it and how she did it, given who she was.

all other things being equal. It's not what I want, but there is something I kind of admire about it. Cause what the fuck else is she supposed to do to be subservient to some, you know, Hollywood glam star for the rest of her life or some oil tycoon or some, you know, Turkish diplomat or whatever. It may be like the role she's being asked to play in society is kind of a big fucking joke and she treats it accordingly.

I kind of

Amit: admire that. Yeah. She makes an absurdity of it.

Michael: Exactly. Good for her again, so much so that I'm gonna marry a prince. Who's not even a real prince and that's gonna be the final act. Yeah,

Amit: I guess I can't find where it doesn't sit well with me, cuz there is a place and I guess that place is probably this deep, deep loneliness inside of her.

And you

Michael: can talk about, I just, I'm just not sure that that's not true for everybody. Ammit. This comes up, I guess, on our show a few

Amit: times. Like it's. Yeah, but when there's data just sort amplified when there's data to show it, I guess I feel a little more for

Michael: it. Yeah. I don't feel sad about this. I think it's kind of funny and Bravo Jaja

Amit: she's revealed something for us about.

Numbers here.

Michael: Let's go into triple overtime, quadruple overtime. What the hell? Why not still scoring? Okay. We're gonna remove the extra

Amit: point. It's like, I mean, this is like the rock and jock baseball game from MTV compared to the major league baseball of marriage. Exactly. You know, you can just put a donkey in center, field or something.

That's what essentially she did with marriage.

Michael: Let's move on. Okay. Category five net worth. What did you.

Amit: 40 million. That's what I saw. I love that Onur that is a great Jaja number. And this is, I think a lot from, uh, I mean this alleged prince who was her 30 year marriage at the end. I think that was the source of a

Michael: lot of it.

I actually think it's the other way. I think she was the wealthy one by that point, I think it was previous marriages. Okay. That was my read on it, but it is hard to find a reliable narrator in this story of where the money came from. Yeah. And how, and when

Amit: don't know if the release net worth number is part of that publicity magic as well.

Did you see

Michael: the Bernie Madoff thing there? Oh yeah. Yes. She was a victim of Bernie Madoff.

Amit: Yes. It's another thing like she, I think she's kind of proud of it. I mean, she wasn't in, in, she wasn't in a good stage right now, but she was like, yeah, probably the, the intact Jaja was like, yeah, I'm part of this, like worldwide headline.

I agree with that. And I think she would like that we are doing this show about her right now. I'm sure she would. She's like, they're still talking about me six years after I'm

Michael: gone. Okay. Category six Simpsons Sarah night live or hall of fame. This category is a measure of how famous a person is. We include both guest appearances on SNR, the Simpsons, as well as impersonations.

The Simpsons in 23, like season 23 is way beyond me. But I guess Lisa goes to see lady Gaga and grandpa's in the crowd and says, I love you lady Jaja, which I think is funny. That's the only Jaja GBO reference I found on the Simpsons surpris that never voiced herself.

Amit: Yeah. Now I'm gonna have to call lady Gaga that.

Michael: I think jaw's fame just peaked before the Simpsons really came. Cuz I it's in the nineties, things start tapering off for her. Yes. So Saturday night live Victoria Jackson played her in a 1989 skit. A few of these skits, some of them really don't hold up, but she must have done the ski more than once because they actually met on Phil.

Donna. Shaha and Victoria Jackson playing Shaha I like Victoria Jackson. She's a great guest. Yeah, I always did too. I always thought she was funny. She does have a Hollywood star. I couldn't figure out exactly when she got it. And then I got one more thing that I'm sure you're gonna love in 1994, she was on.

Bario hall. So Jaja never does anything that that's doesn't, it's difficult to be but it's also wonderful to be . So it's in like this

Amit: I did watch that clip on

Michael: YouTube in the last couple of days. Talk about queen Nevada space. Yeah. I just

Amit: didn't think there's any question about her fame.

Michael: Yes, but in my sampling of people who are under the age of 35 total blank, I wouldn't be surprised if there's like kind of a real sharp edge demographically of who has cultural memory of Jaja or any of the Gaos.

Yeah, I

Amit: think that's true. I think the reaction we get from this episode will show a lot of that too. That a lot of who would be like, who the hell is that there's not enough room for her

Michael: today. All right. Category seven over. In this category, we look at the generalized life expectancy for the year. They, a person was born to see if they beat the house odds.

And as a measure of grace, so little fucking history lesson here, I went looking for life expectancy of a Hungarian woman born in 1917. And after 10 minutes I discovered, oh, Hungary, wasn't a country until 1918 world war I is when Austria Hungary split. And if you go back this far, it's very difficult to find reliable data a year specific.

So what I found for Austrian woman in 1915 was 46.2, four years. And 1920 was 45.75 years. So there's actually a drop off because of the war. So somewhere around almost exactly 46 years, if you take the average. For 1917, she lived to 99.

Amit: This might be our deepest home run. I think, I think that's probably right.

You know, I said anti ageist in the five things, but I think that also it's like the age defiance

Michael: too. I think we can also say very, very graceful. Definitely

Amit: like, you know, you look at these shows that she was on our senior hall, 1994. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. So she died in 2016. So she's what, 78 or so, because she still had that exact same quick wit you know, she was still attractive.

She was still flirtatious. She was still dominating every conversation, demanding every batted eye fun to put

Michael: on your TV. Yeah, juice. Great. So one day last week that I picked up one of my all time favorite people and the two of us spent the afternoon. Eating fast food here in Southern California. You got Jaja GVO with me.

Jaja would like a filet O fish sandwich. What kinda wine do you have? what do you think of that? Look at her. Pounding down. Those fries loves her fries. One other thing I did wanna note on this world war thing. So this is world war II. This wasn't my Maich moment, but it almost was the way she escapes Austria hungry, but then Turkey.

I mean, she has diplomatic immunity because of her first husband, but she ends up traveling to the middle east. She gets stuck in Bagdad for a month. Then she goes through India and eventually east Asia, before she reunites with her sister who had already made the move to the us, her journey out of Europe with apparently 21.

Suitcases that was her like months long journey of escaping Europe.

Amit: And she had an affair with added tur.

Michael: That's right. I, I mean, her life is fucking eventful. It's incredible. She's globetrotting and she is hanging out with everybody. So I'd call that graceful, clear winner

Amit: on the over, and I think clear winner

Michael: on grace.

I agree. Let's pause for a word from our sponsor.

Amit: So Michael, we each do our own set of research as we prepare for these shows. Mm-hmm I notice you always reference a biography and you have like a paperback biography with you as we come to studio. Yeah. So I am to assume that you're getting these from some online mega Mart, is that correct?

Michael: No. Not at all the first thing I do when you and I decide on our next dead celebrity, is I go and find out, is there a biography on this person?

And is that biography available at half price books? There's a store right up the street from me, an actual brick and mortar store where I can walk in when I go there to find out. Do they have a biography for our next dead celebrity, but I always wind up picking up more books. I go through the children's section.

I'm a sucker for a good page Turner. So I go through the murder mystery section. They also have rare collections. They have sign stuff. I don't know how this sounds to you, but I actually, I love the smell of half price books. It's got that old

Amit: book smell. I do. I like that too. Isn't that a great smell. Yeah.

And you know what. Half price books is currently celebrating 50 years of buying and selling books, movies, and music. There are more than 120 stores and you can find out more about half price books@hpb.com.

Michael: Hey, famous and gravy listeners. I wanna tell you about a show. I think you'll enjoy play on podcasts, epic audio adventures that reimagine Shakespeare's timeless tales, featuring original music composition and the voices of award-winning actors. Each episode explores plays from Macbeth to a Midsummer night's dream in a way that you can actually understand it and created specifically for the podcast form by some of America's most exciting playwrights directors and composers and performed by stage and screens best.

Check out their current season of king Le that stars Emmy winner, Keith David and severance star TME Tillman. Here's Shakespeare. Like you've never heard before. Subscribe to play on podcasts, wherever you get your podcasts. Thus far, we have really been exploring what's knowable about a person, what data are available at this point, we're gonna get to the more introspective questions where we try and take a better guess of what we think it would've been like to have been this person.

First of these categories is man in the mirror. What did they think about their own reflection? Amit, what's your man in the mirror for G.

Amit: I think a plus plus I don't have a hot

Michael: take on this. I went the exact same. I said she was beautiful and she liked getting done up and she liked presenting herself and she was very confident about it.

And let's move on. I think that was the fastest man in the mirror we've ever heard. I know. Uh, let's go under the next category. Outgoing message. How do we think she felt about the sound of her own voice when she heard it on an answering machine and would she have actually recorded it or used the default setting on her outgoing voice?

What do you got? I think she

Amit: loved her own voice and she loved hearing it. She loved when other people heard it. She loved it being broadcast. And I think not only would she put it on her outgoing voicemail, but she would like maintain two numbers, probably an external one that she'd publicize the world that everyone can call and here's Jojo's voicemail.

And then have another one. That's her private one, which has a similar

Michael: voicemail. I had 100% the exact same opinion. Next category, regrets, public or private. What we really want to know is what, if anything kept this person awake at night? I struggled here. Did you have big things? Uh, I had one big thing.

Okay, I'll go with my two smaller things. These are both in the, I mean, I'm sure there's stuff out there. The woman has interviewed all the fucking time. There's 50 years of footage to comb through, and I'm sure the question of Joshua don't you regret. And she might have said something, but I do think she changes their story a lot.

So I guess all of that for me, gave a little bit of a pass on the public regrets on the private regrets. I, one of them, I already mentioned. Her acting career. I think it could have gone differently. I think she did actually have talent and she could have like done better movies than queen of out space and make a gun two and a half.

Yes. And then I also have some questions about her final husband. She says in her autobiography, nobody knows what we have and she does stay with him for forever. But I, I just wonder it doesn't look like a happy marriage to me. So I,

Amit: I wrote that one down as well. Yeah. What did you. So if she was raped by Conrad Hilton, her husband reproductive rights was an entirely different world back then, which I realized were, were kind of standing again at a watershed, but you've got to wonder about having a child, um, as a result of rape, I guess it wasn't really a choice back then.

so maybe it's not a

Michael: conscious no, it's really good question. And it's worth thinking about, I mean, it's a, it's a contentious relationship. The author of the book I read, it sounded like among Sam stags, among other things, he was closest to Francesca than the other Gaos. And it sounded like she also suffered from a lot of mental health issue.

Including, you know, addiction enough.

Amit: Yeah. She had nothing resembling a father figure, right? She had, in fact, a mother that made a mockery of her lack of familys. Although her mother only, and always spoke very highly of her. Anytime you saw her in an interview, you know, kept her away from the cameras, but it's difficult.

It's difficult to be a child of that type of character, no matter what, no matter how much they protect you, you still see it on screen and you still hear the criticisms and you see

Michael: that. I mean, he look, um, I really do think that. There's a question in my mind of how did Ja GBO understand and experience love?

I, I, I do think that this thing about seeking attention is really about seeking love. In some sense, I do wonder if this lifelong drive to continue to seek attention, isn't about seeking affection and love and that the marriages speak to that. And if you struggle with that, Then in all likelihood, your children are going to struggle with that as well, which I think is all, but self-evident here when it comes to Francesca's life, it sounds thoroughly tragic.

And. I think this idea that materialism can substitute for love is one of the biggest fucking problems in our society and in our world and in our culture. Yes. And, and that, there's something about Ja Gabor's existence and her love of diamonds and her love of, you know, materialistic things that epitomizes that.

I do think that gift giving is one of the five languages of love and it matters. But the, the other forms of deep human connection feel like they're absent here. And I think that that transferred to her daughter's life. Yeah.

Amit: I just, I hope that maybe she got some of the love feeling from her daughter and it seems like that in the way she talked about her in a lot of the early interviews and all just being so protective of her.

And like I said, by thing I loved number one was compliments. And when she said certain comments, I believed them. And the way she spoke about her daughter, I

Michael: also believed that. Words of affirmation are another love language. So I agree. Next category. Good dreams are bad dreams. This is not about personal perception, but rather does this person look haunted something in the eye that suggests inner turmoil, inner demons, unresolved trauma.

She

Amit: hides it well. I mean, there's something in the behavior that certainly suggests that, but in the eyes,

Michael: I mean, she, is that a bad dreams answer. I

Amit: agree. It's a speculation of bad dreams because of all the behavior and exactly what you just said about love. You know, there's definitely a deficiency. Yeah.

There, but however, the gauge of the look in the eye, I don't think applies on this one. Fair enough. The standard I'm using for the look in the eye is fake laugh. She has a fake laugh and the fact that she can't do that or that she feels like she has to kind of fake laugh it off on the talk shows. That's my

Michael: indication.

Yeah, that's a good tell. I like that. And I didn't notice it until you brought it up, but I hundred percent agree. Her laugh feels very forced and inauthentic. Well, it's nice of you to come back and, and congratulations. When, when were you married? Was it about a year ago? I went bad dreams as well, based on, I don't know it, maybe it isn't as much the look of the eye cuz I agree.

She, it does hide

Amit: it. It's beauty as a skill also, I guess, you know, we've, we've presuppose that you can always sort of. But I don't know unless, you know, the whole story with her. I don't know.

Michael: I don't know. I, we both went to

Amit: bad and I think we both went to bad dreams, but what we're talking about is that if you just saw a mute video of the person, would you need a look in the eye?

Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. You got an you're right. You need more data. All right. Second to last category, cocktail, coffee or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead guest? This may be a question of what drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part that we're most curious about.

What do you got.

Amit: Like six shots of Jameson right off the bat. because, because of this character that she plays and I want to, I don't know of any other way to disarm it or get at the actual inner being. She has to get lampshade drunk in order to just kind of spill all about like where, what she really wants and where she really aches and all the, all the emotions that have to come.

Michael: I love that answer. I went cannabis. I want to get high with good Bo for one reason. I think she's funny. And I think she would fucking crack me up. That is even her laugh is a little bit inauthentic. I, I kind of feel like we'd crack each other up and just have like a delightful time. I think I'd like to attend one of her parties, you know, and I'd like to be a little high and a little bit like.

I don't know, even a little bit like in a dreamy state, you know? Um,

Amit: yeah. I could see you like kicking off your stilettos and just letting go with Jaja at one of the mansion parties,

Michael: fucking a fucking a all right. I think we're here. Our final category, the Vander beak named after James Vander, beak, who famously said and varsity blues.

I don't want your life. So based on everything we've talked about a, the big question is, do you want this life?

Amit: Do you think it's easy? Do you think it's an easy.

Michael: It's not as easy as I would've thought. Yeah, I don't, there's a lot that's undesirable. I don't see a tremendous amount of relational wealth, but I do see a lot of fun.

And I do kind of like the, you know, you just sort of skip and tap, dance your way through what may be a big fucking joke. And if you're gonna do it, make the most of it, go on TV a lot, travel the world, have exciting lovers, have a story to tell captivate attention and look good. I think I still come to the same place where overall, it looks a little bit shallow and your point earlier of meaning, but I don't know.

I'm closer to a 50 50 on this than I would've thought

Amit: she was certainly loved by a lot of fans and a lot of women during those peak years, she was a symbol of control. I'm not sure what's

Michael: so bad. There's something about her life. That is to me, a sort of different set of considerations than what we usually come to here, because I do think that we tend to, you know, look at artistic catharsis and we tend, do tend to look at impact and legacy on history.

And we do tend to look at relational wealth. And I'm not saying much of any of those things yet. There's still something kind of, sort of appealing about her existence that it's like, yeah. Maybe, maybe why not? There, there is something about what are we ask here and this question of meaning not necessarily significance in history, but at least.

You know, intimacy beyond friends and, and, and two family members. I don't, I, I think that there's like a love that's taken for granted in places. Yes. I'll love you. I'll marry you. Yes, of course. I love my sister who I actually argue with all the fucking time. And of course I love my father, who I haven't seen since I was 15 years old.

I, I, I think that there's a lot in her story. That's just not the life I want, man, but it's more attractive than I would've thought, but I'll give my answer. And my answer is. I don't want

Amit: your life. Okay. Those are the key points as the relational wealth and the deep intimate love. I think she didn't get that and was deprived of that.

But I also think she did a lot better than a lot of people. Yeah. And even a lot of people that may have had. Relational wealth or intimate love, you know, it's not unanimously desirable for me, but I think it's better than a lot of other options. And, you know, I point I think it just goes back to the, the things that I said I loved about her and that was the anti-aging, you know, just living it up until the end.

And she was a symbol for some empowerment and some good. And there's a little bit of meaning in. Right. Or she may not be remembered by anybody after our generation, but certainly if she played some sort of influence and inspiring confidence of people, of our generation, that does play out in many ways into the future.

So I will go, I will go warm. Yes. I want your life Saja Gur.

Michael: Wow. I mean, to your point about impact for what it's worth, she was a very early animal rights activist. Yeah. And had like horses, dogs, cats. I mean, her relationship with her animals is exactly what you'd expect. and it's kind of wonderful. So you're a yes, Jerry.

Yes.

Amit: What we're talking about in the VanDerBeek is not choosing your ideal life. It's not trading your own life. It's just saying, you know, are you gonna return this one to the store? And I don't

Michael: think so. Shit. I think America is gonna be satisfied with what we've done here tonight. Good. All right. Ah, you have died, darling.

Your G you're Jaja Gur you're meeting St. Peter at the Pearl of the gates. Laura is yours

Amit: St. Peter. I adore you. You are a handsome, gorgeous, beautiful, man. We're not gonna summarize actions. We're not gonna summarize intent. We're just going to summarize the game. I played it with a smile on my face. I had a lot of fun playing the game.

I brought people into the game. I insisted they all play the game. I insisted they batted the beach ball around and I played the game till the end. I loved the game. The game was fun and I won the game. So I'm going in. Thank you.

Michael: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of famous and gravy. If you're enjoying our show, we have a favor to ask. We hear from a lot of people that this show cheers, 'em up. It puts 'em in a good mood. So think of somebody in your life, just one person who you'd like to cheer up and share an episode of our show with them, be like, Hey man, here's an episode of famous and GRA.

Share it with anybody who you think could stand to be put in a good mood. We are on Twitter. Our Twitter handle is at famous and gravy. We also have a newsletter which you can sign up for on our website, famous and gravy.com. Famous and gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me Michael Osborne. This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss, original theme music by Kevin.

And thanks so much to our sponsor, half Bryce books. Thank you again for listening. Please share this episode and we hope to see you next time.