031 The Greatest Transcript (Muhammad Ali)

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Amit: This is famous and gravy, a podcast about quality of life. As we see it, one dead celebrity at a time, you can also play our mobile quiz app at dead or live app.com.

Michael: This person died in 2016, age 74. He had an agile mind, a buoyant personality and a brash self-confidence

Friend: slim pickings great.

Michael: Guess I love slim pickings, but no, not slim pickings.

He was described as a shapeshifter. A public figure who kept reinventing his persona. Yeah. That didn't narrow it down much either. not an actor, not a singer could be an athlete that could be anybody. His personal life was paradoxical. He belonged to a sect that emphasized strong families, a subject on which he lectured yet he had DS as casual as autograph sessions. He was politically and socially idiosyncratic as well.

Friend: I have no idea. And you said it was gonna get easier. It's not getting easier.

Michael: he graduated 376 in a high school class of 391. He was never taught to read properly years later, he confided that he had never read a book including the ones on which he collaborated.

Friend: And I am terrible that none of these have felt.

Michael: He had Parkinson's disease for more than 30 years.

Friend: Oh, um, um, was it Muhammad ali?

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Muhammad Ali.

Friend: So excited. Just made my day. Good.

Archival: He's yelling behind us guys. Just like, come here, come here, come here, come here, Chad. The greatest things in ever lived. I don't have a mark on my face. Yes. And I upset son, listen, and I just turned 22 years old. I must be the greatest. Up the world, the real, just a, a minute. Caius the king of the, hold it, hold it. You're that

Michael: welcome to famous. And. I'm Michael osborne.

Amit: My name is Amit Kapoor

Michael: and on this show, we choose a celebrity who died in the last 10 years and review their quality of life. We go through a series of categories to figure out the things in life that we would actually desire and ultimately answer a big question.

What I want that life today, Muhammad Ali died 2016, age 74.

I have a question. Do you think this is the biggest celebrity we've done so far?

I would've thought Nelson Mandela or Neil Armstrong. There's a case to be made that yes.

Amit: Could be. It is definitely debatable. Yes. In terms of name recognition

Michael: globally, it terms are transcendence importance, history books, like as well as pop culture, uh, as well as like significance.

Yeah. It's a real contender. This is a big one. This is a big one. That's so a lot at stake here. Let's go category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Muhammad Ali. The three time world heavyweight boxing champion who helped define his turbulent times as the most charismatic and controversial sports figure of the 20th century died on Friday in a Phoenix area hospital.

He was 74.

Amit: Yeah. A lot of good words there and sort of defining, uh, turbulent times. Yeah. I guess the first thing I noticed is Muhammad Ali, there was no ode to his birth name, to

Michael: Cassius clay. Yes. That's an honoring of him in a way, I think how important it was that he was known as Muhammad Ali and not Cassius clay.

Yeah. Cause

Amit: that, that was actually an issue, right? It did really rub him media

Michael: and opponents. This is gonna come up. Yeah. This is gonna come up later. Charismatic and controversial. I actually stumbled a little bit on the controversial thing, cuz certainly he was controversial at the peak of his fame throughout the 16, 20 16.

That's the, that one thing that's so interesting about him is that he is a controversial figure. When he's an active boxer and when he's a spokesperson for all kinds of issues, whether it's Vietnam or civil rights, yet as time goes on, he's universally revered.

Amit: Yeah. The controversy seems to be erase from the public consciousness.

Michael: Right. And I'll tell you the other big thing that's not in here. The Parkinson's. Like the second half of his life. Again, we're gonna get more into this as well, but a man who was known for being such an eloquent speaker and such a passionate, charismatic figure who lost those communicative abilities as time went on because of a degenerative disease,

Amit: like they needed to contrast the charismatic and controversial with the debilitating disease that

Michael: took him.

Do you think that they should have said anything about his life after boxing? Because they. I think

Amit: so, cuz this is 2016. This is exactly 20 years after the Olympic torch lighting. Yeah. When basically the whole world saw what condition he was in. Right. And yeah, I think there needs to be an acknowledgement of it in the first line.

And I don't think it's much more than a few words and I think he is the reason. That we even know about the deteriorat effects of Parkinson's disease. Yeah. Other than Michael J. Fox

Michael: you're right. I mean, you could have gotten that as a clause in here

Amit: died from complications of Parkinson's disease. Yeah.

At a Phoenix area hospital. Sure.

Michael: Everything else. I really like though they got three time heavyweight boxing champion. I love that. Which is good. Yeah. Here's what, uh, something else I like the most. It's superlative the most charismatic and controversial sports figure of the 20th century. You have to have superlatives.

We're talking about Muhammad Ali. When talking

Amit: about Muhammad Ali, I remember our Mor CDK conversation. Yes. Where you were like, who the hell are you to call this the most important correct. Children's

Michael: artist. And I do not have that gripe here because they're pairing charisma. Controversy and sports figure.

I think he wins hands down and there's not gonna be any argument about using a superlative here. Yep. I think I have my score.

Amit: Okay. Do you? Yeah. What do you got?

Michael: I'm gonna go in eight. God damnit. That's what I'm gonna go. And so are you docking the two points because of the

Amit: parking thing? I, I agree with you on, on controversy.

It didn't occur to me on first. Listen, mm-hmm and I think an acknowledgement of the disease.

Michael: Yeah, I agree. I also, and we didn't talk maybe enough about this, but defined his turbulent times. That's a great one phrase. Yeah, because I think there's a lot

Amit: to that. Yes. I mean, we just said something before we turned the microphones.

On we're like, I just learned so much about the sixties and seventies again. Oh

Michael: my God. Yes. It is often the case that you and I choose a dead celebrity for famous and gravy. And I'm like, I hope this person proves to be interesting when we chose Muhammad Ali. I'm like, I hope, you know, his story lives up.

To the expectations that I have for learning and doing a deep dive and holy cow, does it ever fascinating? Like I understand why he is a figure in history in a way that transcends sports.

Amit: the champion of the whole

Michael: world can whoop every man in

Amit: Russia, every man in America,

Michael: every man in China, everyman in Japan, every man in Europe, every man in America, the chapter of the whole world.

It sound big then. So I kept working until I did this. I'm not gonna argue with you. you're not as dumb as you look. category two, five things. I love about you here. ETT and I work together to come up with five reasons why we love this person. Why we wanna be talking about them in the first place. I started to get into this a second ago.

I wrote ahead of the curve slash trailblazer slash pioneer, but it's really culture maker. I mean, actually really the phrase here is defined his times, like defined these turbulent times. Um, and I bulleted this out. So this is, this is a big catchall okay. Thing I love about, uh, Muhammad Ali, right? First of all trash talking, I'm sure it existed prior to Muhammad Ali, but I feel like he is like the first modern trash talker, you know, just the way he is.

I don't know, baiting his opponents and like, you know, out there just like in front of the cameras being nasty. Yeah. What

Amit: do you think listen would be today? If it wasn't for you? If it wasn't for me, it's

Michael: funny. Listen, to be just a dead heavyweight camping, trying to find the suitable opponents, and then they'll draw about five or 6,000 people.

I'm the resurrected, the savior of the whole game. That's every day I'm in the newspapers. You get tired of reading about me. How called magazine? Everything. I'm a big man. How about this villain? Rose? Yeah. Listen with the villain. Didn't nobody like, listen, listen was a thug. Listen was a gangster. Everybody won.

See, listen, beat. And now all of a sudden, listen is the pav. That's why I like it. That makes me rumble. That's how we gonna do we gonna. Okay. Civil rights leader. This, I did not know. I kind of, sort of a little bit knew that he might have met Malcolm X. I didn't realize he was mentored by Malcolm X in that he and Martin Luther king had like a, really, a very close relationship, a very close relationship.

I mean, he is not some peripheral figure in the 1960. Civil rights movement. He's right in the thick of it. Yes. You know, as an ambassador for the nation of Islam in, in so many ways, way ahead of the curve with pointing out the injustices of Vietnam. I mean, he was a conscientious objector before that was fashionable and before draft dodging was even a little,

Amit: what it was really unfashionable.

It was considered extremely unpatriotic. Jason.

Michael: Yeah. He's gonna question the war effort. Totally. So he is ahead of the curve there. This is probably a separate thing. We're gonna talk more about it, but there is an argument to be made that he pioneered modern hip hop. I'm sure we're gonna talk about that.

Yeah. Yeah. I know. We're gonna talk about, but like ahead of the curve there, in terms of sort of like a lyrical rhythm style of speaking, I'm gonna float like a butterfly and sting, like a bee George can't hit what his hands can't see you now. You see me now. You. He think he will, but I know he won't, they tell me George is good, but I'm twice as nice.

And I'm gonna stick to his butt, like white. All right. That's right. And then just like confident black man full of bravado, fearlessness, and willing to say what's on his mind. It just feels so ahead of the curve. So defined his turbulent times. I think actually really sums it up. Maybe even better than any of these things.

Amit: Very much so. I mean, you can learn pretty much everything. About the 1960s and seventies, civil rights movement, as it pertains to black people, just through the lens of Muhammad Ali. Totally because he crossed every major part of it. And every major character went through, it went through Kim at some point, or he went through them at some point.

Well,

Michael: that's what I got for my number one. Okay. Do you wanna take number

Amit: two? Yeah, I'm gonna say manifested greatness. Mm. So the story about how he got interested in boxing, I think he was 12 years old. Yeah. With his brother, they had a bicycle. They went into someplace in downtown Louisville. Right. They came out in their bicycle was missing.

So he goes around either looking for his bicycle or looking for a cop. And someone told him there's a policeman in the basement of this building. So he goes down there, the policeman is actually running a boxing gym. And there's these kids like young kids and teenagers boxing, what, both white kids and black kids.

And he said he saw black kids being allowed to punch white kids was one of the things that inspired him, but he then decided he wanted to become a boxer. So this same cop who was a boxing trainer. Said he is just ordinary. Yeah. He did not go in there turning heads. If you remember, when we talked about Diego, me, Donna, like they gave him a soccer ball when he was three and you can picture it just like, you can see the footage of tiger woods right now.

Right. And they are like, this person is destined for greatness. Yeah. Muhammad Ali was not, he started out ordinary and he manifested greatness. He just said, I'm gonna be the greatest. And he worked at it and I mean, the man had an ability to basically say things that came true later.

Michael: So in terms of a thing you love about it, do you like that it speaks to free will in terms of desirability, that if you believe strongly enough in yourself and your abilities and you're confident and you put in the hard work, you can achieve greatness that it's not all just, you know, innate aptitudes or whatever.

Amit: Correct. And that also manifestation can exist. The universe can also work to align for you. It's not

Michael: all genetic skill. Yeah. That's a really good one. Should I take number three? Yeah. Okay. His physique. He's a stud man. Like this is an incredible body, his ability to absorb punches as well as like, I don't know the way he walks his swagger, you know?

Oh, yes. I mean, this guy is just a complete stud, an extremely

Amit: handsome, extremely handsome, describing a boxer, which you think, you know, you should have a mangled face, but it always just like reshaped.

Michael: Why is it? Do you think that you draw the crowds of all the sportsmen in the world? Mainly personality's got a lot to do with it.

Very few boxers can get on this show and match WIS with wise men like yourself and, uh, very few fighters. If you take the camera and close up, you see my nose and my face, I'm not ugly. Like most fighters, they have nose like that, and the ears are like that. How you feel

pretty, a pretty fighter. Every time he was on camera, your eyes are just

Amit: drawn to. Yeah. And the body language, would you also hint it out? Yes.

Michael: He's also, you know, winks in a, in a really knowing way. I mean, he's got some subtleties of facial expression in his younger years that all add into the charisma and the physicality

Amit: of the man.

I think what you're saying is that the combination of the way he trained and the way he carried himself, plus those genetics just combined into this miracle. Yes. All right. Yeah.

Michael: Number four, you.

Amit: I'm gonna go bad with money in a good way. I like it. All right. So, and this is just the, sometimes just stupid acts of generosity.

He was also very early on in being an entourage type of guy. Yeah. You know, he had his entourages, not just the trainers and the doctors that he took around and he would take up whole floors of hotels. For fights and things like that. Yeah. That's not the bad part of money that I'm praising. Yeah. I'm praising the, just giving away Rolex watches.

He spread it around luxurious things. Yeah. And he would wear Rolex watch and sometimes just a stranger would compliment on it. And he'd just give it to him. Yeah. Here, here you take it. Yeah. There was a story that was told, I think in the Ken burns documentary that they were training in a gym and this guy came in, who had no legs.

He may have been a vet or something, but he was known around the block as basically being like a drunk. Yeah. And he came in and he is like, yeah, he got cash for me. And they like everyone else in the gym had normally, always just discarded him. And Muhammad Ali just gave him a wad of like thousands of dollars of cash.

And they're like, why did you do that? She's just gonna go spend it on booze. Muhammad was just like, well, we got legs, man. It's not

Michael: simple. We got legs. Yeah. So in terms of a thing you love about it though, I mean, do you wish you had that attitude with money? Absolutely.

Amit: To some extent, yeah. Right. To be blindly generous.

There's one thing to be cautiously generous. Yeah. To be blindly generous. Very, very few people can have that gift, but you also, just, everybody on the other side always has a. And you have no idea what degree of misfortune lay behind them. So if you just give every time you're asked, who knows how many lives you are actually changing and turning around as the days

Michael: go on.

That's a pretty good segue into number five. This is a little bit of Gary Shandling here. I wrote lifelong commitment to spirituality. Yeah, we should talk about

Amit: it. Lifelong. I interesting.

Michael: Let me just lay out the case. So before this conversation, I had my dad over for breakfast the other morning, and I told him, ah, and I are gonna be talking about Muhammad Ali.

So I asked them about Muhammad Ali and what his take was, cuz they're basically contemporaries. Yeah. And. What my dad said was when he was boxing, I could never tell if it was authentic, if it was real his conversion to Islam and his, or whether he, it was just meant to draw and capture attention. I think you could spin the story a few different ways in terms of Muhammad Ali's conversion to Islam in the early sixties.

Here's how I see it. And I wonder if you see it the same way. I think he found a community of empowerment and a place where he felt like he belonged and. Religious element of that was almost secondary to the feeling of belonging in the nation of Islam. Correct? I also do think though that as his life goes on, His commitment to Islam enriches.

He never converts back. And I do think that as he ages and as he faces Parkinson's, it looks to me like his spirituality and his religion are more and more important. And so I do see a lifelong commitment, even if it's kind of a question in my mind, how deep that commitment was when he is in his early twenties.

Amit: Yeah, the origins were exactly, as you said, it was just belonging, right? Because the nation of Islam was just blackness. It was this community that says we only shop at black owned places. We only have black members. We do everything, just four blacks. By blacks and

Michael: with blacks, it was a separatist movement, which I don't think I quite understood that before doing the research on this episode.

Yeah. The nation of Islam was saying, you know, a separate state, the honor of Muhammad has taught since we've seen. The government itself is still incapable of bringing about integration. We reject it, that takes too long and you don't have that much time left.

Amit: And that's what attracted Muhammad Ali, Ali.

There was nothing about a law or the Quran that attracted him. Initially. Right. But he did take it seriously. It took him a while to learn it. I mean, this, this man could barely even read. Right. But he did follow. It closely for his lifetime. And he did right. Five times a day. He did the pilgrimages to Mecca.

Yeah. And

Michael: all of that later in his life. Yeah. And after nine 11 became an ambassador to some extent for, I mean, he was like the go-to spokesperson for Muslim Americans. Here's I guess the other reason I bring this up, cuz I know this is where this conversation's going. I think that. His Parkinson's worsens.

There is a real question as to what's going on inside his mind. Sure. Because his ability to communicate what's going on, you know, becomes less and less over time. So part of me wanted to call out his commitment to his faith, because I want to believe that that's where he goes in his mind as his body begins to fail.

Amit: And without that, perhaps he wouldn't have lasted as long, cuz it's all internal after a certain point. That's right. I think the only thing is the wording of lifelong commitment to spirituality. Okay. I think it's the role that spirituality played in the transformation of his life.

Michael: I'm on board with that.

I think that's a better framing of it. I think it's spirituality as a tool throughout different stages of life.

Amit: Yeah. I can sign off on that. Okay. All right. Well, we gotta recap

Michael: thing. Number one, I said ahead of the curve, I said culture maker defining the turbulate times, uh, captures as an error

Amit: times said, number two, I said, manifested greatness.

Michael: Number three, uh, physique, which includes the charisma and the facial features. Number four, you said

Amit: blind generosity. Rolexs and wa and wads of cash.

Michael: Think you said bad with money in a good way, which I liked that. Okay. Bad. then number five Rolo

Amit: spirituality

Michael: throughout his life. All. Let's move on. Category three.

Malcovich Malcovich. This category is named after the movie. Bing John Malcovich in which people take a portal into John Mavis mind where they can have a front row seat to his experiences. Okay. Are you familiar with the Cleveland summit? 1967. I am. Okay. This is my Maich moment. Let me set this up. See if I got it right.

So there's a famous photograph of Muhammad Ali with Jim brown, the football player, arguably the greatest football player of all time. Some people put him on that list. Bill Russell May be the greatest basketball player of all time. Uh, and also Lou Al CDER at the time later, Kaja bar, the four of them sitting at a press conference.

And this was from his biographer. All these black athletes in the late sixties were there to convince Muhammad Ali to accept a kind of compromise around being drafted for Vietnam. He had said I'm a conscientious objector and that they were gonna throw him in jail. And so he's fighting that starting around 1967, and they're trying to convince him.

To say yes and compromise so he can do exhibition games and then he can also be compensated from his boxing matches. Everybody's trying to get Muhammad Ali to start boxing again. It has been said that I have two alternatives either go to jail or go to the army. But I would like to say that there is another alternative that alternative is justice.

If justice prevails. I will neither go to the army nor will I go to jail. And at the end of the Cleveland summit, they come out to a press conference where all these athletes say, we stand with Muhammad Ali. We stand with Muhammad Ali. He worked the crowd and more or less convinced everybody to be in solidarity with his conscientious objector status.

I think it's one thing to say I'm willing to go to jail. I do not believe in this war, but then to win over the support from other sports figures, I wonder what it feels like to win everybody over and to be like, I'm not alone here because it's gotta feel lonely. To fight the man. It's more than persuasion.

Yeah. This is leading by example. Right. And winning people over that way.

Amit: Yes. I see that picture. And I see brothers in arms essentially to borrow a war term. Yeah. These people will stand beside me. They are also risking their careers. Muhammad Ali used the words I will die rather than go to this war. I saw it togetherness against a system, much bigger.

Michael: Just to complete the story for those who don't know, Muhammad Ali fights, the draft board and fights going to war and eventually wins the case eventually goes to the Supreme court. So he did not box from 1967 to, I think, 1971. It's like three and a half years. And a lot of people say those were his prime years.

Now when he comes back after this in 71, it's clear he is lost

Amit: a step. Yeah. And you know, what else, what was happening in those four years is he also knew before that Supreme court. Ruling that he would have to go to jail for five years. They thought they would weaken me

Michael: and put fear in me by threaten me to go to jail and taking my earning power.

And I'm getting stronger. And this shakes up a lot of people to see them this strong. It also makes other so-called Negro strong who are facing the same problems. And in this way, I think I can do for more for my people. They've never had a big black man that just stood up and identified with the struggle of his people.

A thousand

Amit: percent. So that's my Maich moment. That's a good one. So I have just like the kind of closing chapter to that. All right. So in 1967 to 71, he's essentially one of the most hated men in America because he's considered unpatriotic as time went on and the Vietnam war became more and more unpopular.

Muhammad Ali gets a Supreme court overturning, and then in 1974, he competes in the rumble in the jungle. Against George Foreman, where he becomes a heavyweight champion for the second time, I believe. Correct. So following that in his sort of victory tour throughout Africa first cause that's where the fight was held.

And then president Ford, the successor to Richard Nixon. Brings him in to the white house to commend him and give him a medal. Yeah. So Amir seven years has passed from basically being one of the biggest figureheads in opposition to the United States government to being in the white house. Seven years

Michael: later, the photograph I remember seeing with him and Gerald Ford is like, they're both laughing, they're laughing.

Amit: They are ear to ear. Smiling. Yeah. That is

Michael: a song is what turn of events, right? Yeah. And, and, but history turned in his direction. He stayed in the same place, which is

Amit: exactly my Alvi that history had turned in his direction because he stood his ground.

Michael: Wow. It's a great Alage years too. Let me ask this question.

This feels like the right place for it. At what point does he become more than a sports figure? At what point does he become a historical figure at, at some point, this becomes about more than sports. I guess it's in opposition to Vietnam that that happens. And maybe it is in this moment that you're pointing to where he becomes bigger than box.

I think it's

Amit: closer to your moment when he

Michael: refused the draft. It's funny, you know, I'm not that much of a boxing fan, but it's interesting how we have these movies about boxers. You know, whether it's raging bull or Rocky, there is something about the American boxer that is just a real iconic figure and Muhammad Ali's real life story is as good as any of those movies.

Oh, without a doubt. Okay. Let's pause for a word from our sponsor.

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Michael: Tennis player, Billy Jean King, not alive. The

Amit: rules are

Michael: simple. She is still with us as of this recorded. Isn't that great. Like a couple years ago, here we go. Ralph Nader. That's a hard one. Dead or alive. Uh, Ralph. Is

Amit: alive,

Michael: correct? Ralph Nader is 88 years old and still going. He's a plant based diet. That's what I went with.

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Category four love and marriage. How many marriages also, how many kids? And is there anything public about these relationships? Okay. There's a lot here. I'm gonna just try and get through it in terms of good housekeeping and then let's just get into it. Yep. Um, okay. So. Four marriages, nine kids, seven daughters, two sons.

First marriage is in 1964. He's 22 at the time. No kids came out of that divorced in 1966. She wouldn't convert. Her name was Soji. Roy. His brother said that she was this one true love, but there was some conflict between her and the nation of Islam. Wife number two, Belinda Boyd in 1967. He's 25. She later changed her name to Kala, four children, three girls and Muhammad Ali Jr.

Also he wrote two B because at age 32 and 1974, Muhammad Ali began an extra marital affair with Wanda Bolton, who later changed her name to Aisha. And they're married in an Islamic ceremony that was not legally recognized and it sort of looks like polygamy. Uh, and he was not divorced from CILA. They had a daughter.

And then in 1972, he had another daughter out of wedlock. I couldn't figure out exactly when he and Belinda got divorced. I think it's 19 76, 19 77. He marries Veronica Porsche. He's 35. They have two kids. I was not a hundred percent clear on when they got divorced, but she was. Clear by this point, that infidelity was common and that he was having a lot of one night stands.

And she said something to the effect of, she could tell these women didn't mean anything to him, but at this point he has very, very promiscuous lifestyle.

Amit: Yes. And I thought there was even an overlap that he wasn't divorced when he married

Michael: Veronica. I couldn't follow all of this. That may be right in 1986, he marries Lonnie Williams.

He's 44 at this point. He's also exhibiting signs of Parkinson's by now, that's pretty clear. She was very young when they met and he was a young adult. So there's quite a bit age gap, but she becomes his caretaker in many ways and they stayed married until his death. They had one adopted son and she also becomes something of a business manager.

She gets. Financial affairs in order for the remainder of his life overall mixed relationship with the kids. Some of them loved him. Some of them didn't, they all said he wasn't around much, but when he was, he was a lot of fun what to make of this summit. I don't even know how much I want to talk

Amit: about this.

Well, I think it's just worth noting. He seems like he was a terrible husband to wife, two, three, and. He was addicted to the road. He loved the adoration of the world. And it sounds like many, many extramarital affairs.

Michael: Yeah. He's having a lot of sex. I mean, the guy also did not drink or smoke or do any kind of drugs or anything.

I mean, this is to the extent that he's after short term dopamine hits, this is where he is getting them, but he is

Amit: doing it by cheating and lying.

Michael: Yeah, he is. What's the, the central part of your training. Is it running? Is it sparring or central? is dodging the nightclubs and the parties and the girls. you want the truth and being in the bed.

By yourself at nine o'clock at night. dodging. Ladies is the main thing, especially when you're pretty like me and I feel like he's also such a transcendent figure that a lot of people are making excuses for him as if this is all okay. And this is what comes with next level fame and all the trials and tribulations he's been through.

Also, it should be said. Goes against a lot of the religious tenants that he had, you know, was espousing. So that's what I

Amit: wanted to ask you. How do you couple this information with your

Michael: spirituality remarks? Uh, that nobody's perfect. I guess. No, you'll

Amit: that's so you use, can use that a couple of times. I don't

Michael: mean to say, eh, nobody's perfect.

I mean, to say. He's really, really not perfect when it comes to interpersonal relationships and treating women with equality and being a good husband and being a good father, he gets low scores in the family department. I mean, he's bad. Yeah. Terrible. It's inexcusable.

Amit: Very obvious that he was promiscuous there.

I read several things that even called him a sex addict. But what I'm wondering is this is that basically he's has these sham marriages. He's got dozens of affairs.

Michael: I'm wait, one sec. Wait a sec. I don't know that I'd go sham marriages. Okay. He's got

Amit: these marriages, right? Infidelity.

Michael: Yeah, but let's dig into this for a second because I.

You know, you see some of his exes being interviewed in the Ken burns documentary. Yes. And I still perceive love and intimacy and adoration in a way. This has come up before on the show. You and I have a particular point of view when it comes to infidelity and what it means and why it's significant. And I do think that it is hurtful and harmful to a marriage to be cheating around the way he was at the same time.

I wouldn't call it a sham marriage. They also

Amit: seemed like they weren't that secretive. All these affairs and one that

Michael: embarra I having they're embarrassing for his wives. Absolutely. I just dunno what to say here. Other than like, this gets to regrets, which comes up later. I mean, he is public about, I was not a good man when it came to how I participated in the marriage and in the family.

So I think there is a misalignment of his stated ideals and his behavior. No question about it. And it's at its worst. I think throughout the 1970s, late sixties and seventies. It bumps me out. Bombs you

Amit: out. It's not surprising though, right? It fits with the persona. Yes, but it doesn't make sense with his spirituality.

It's not about it makes sense to you.

Michael: It does because he's not punished for them in a way. If there's not accountability for how this is hurting people, he's getting away with it and way. You know, it's not what I want from my marriage, but I understand how he sees this as normal for him, because the thing is like he had awareness that he's an extraordinary man.

And I think that if you are telling yourself a story about how extraordinary you are, then. It's just no question that you begin to think the rules don't apply to me and whatever expectations everybody else has for marriage. Doesn't apply here. And that's a short term rationalization, but it's not complicated.

I get it. Yeah.

Amit: I think it's just my insecurities coming out that like, if this is happening, will I be on the other end of

that

Michael: ever? Yeah. Well, I mean, I think one thing that makes a marriage successful is some level of mutual respect and equality. And I don't see that here, but it's also not surprising that I don't see that here.

And if what we're after is desirability, then having counter examples is just as useful as having, you know, the Ruth Bader Ginsburg's of the world. Yeah. True. Who have like great marriages for decades on end. Right. You wanna see what failure looks like and why it, and this is failure. This is failure in the home and family department.

It hurt me. I had to. Find women in locked in my closets and in my house, you guys already have kids, and this is what you're going through.

Amit: This is your life at. And, and you see right now, you're still, but you still show him some sort of, well, you know, respect and honor do that. You know why

Michael: he's just, but you're, you're not who had weaknesses.

Yes. And yeah, I'd say 75% of that life was beautiful and 25 was not, but it was a challenge and it was something I had to learn from.

Amit: Category

Michael: five. Yes. Category five net worth God. There's just so much to talk about with this guy. All right. I saw 80 million. Is that what you saw? Yep. But that's a very complicated number because in terms of the things that you said, like he's good at being bad with money, he was doing a lot of fights, especially in the seventies when he was.

Just for the paycheck. He didn't handle his money. Well, and it wasn't really until his fourth marriage to Lonnie that his financial affairs kind of got in order. And this

Amit: is after his third title when he's more or less

Michael: retired. That's right. There's just a lot of variability. He ran out, he kept running low, kept running low, but also living in mansions and buying nice cars.

And, but then outta money again. So it glosses over a lot. Ultimately 80 million, which means that whatever Lonnie was doing in those final years, uh, she had her shit

Amit: together. He sold the rights to his name and his likeness. Yeah. For a massive sum that brought in at least 7 million in royalties for every year.

And, and still may I think, towards his family. And I think it's all licensing money. If he would've died sooner or he dies, broke. Yeah. He would die a three time heavyweight champion broke. Should we move on then?

Michael: Yeah. Category six Simpsons, Saturday night live or hall of fame. This category is a measure of how famous a person is.

We include both guest appearances on SNL or the Simpsons as well as impersonations. Okay. Simpsons, there's at least five references. He never voiced himself, but there's actually a super cut of all the times. Muhammad Ali is referenced on YouTube. Oh, show notes. Yeah. Okay. Sarah night live the one that I remember, Eddie Murphy, it's kind of mean in retrospect, because it has Joe Piscopo as like a Howard Costell, like figure interviewing Muhammad Ali when he is young and brash and sort of, you know, Confident and like really loquacious, right?

32, the man's ready for rocket chair. I guarantee the world I'm gonna shock the world, prove the world. I'm the greatest fighter of all time destroy this man. And I'm gonna keep the halfway championship of the world for five years straight. Then I'm gonna retire from the Boston game. He happy, rich and pretty.

I'm the greatest fighter of old times. That's this like old, black and white clip. And then they zoom forward to the present and it's brain damaged, Muhammad Ali and. In the middle of the interview started singing. I like his show at my style. Oh, McDonald had a farm and known his farm. Well, there you have it.

Ali confused career over brain cells, few it's mean, but there's more impersonations. I saw one skit with Billy crystal of all people impersonating him. And I saw at least one other with Garrett Morris from the original cast. Okay. Um, but he was never on Surnet live that I could. He does have a Hollywood star.

And this is interesting. It's not on the ground. He didn't want people walking on his name. So it's actually on a wall. He got it in 2002. It's the first time I've

Amit: ever heard of that. I wonder if that's an Islam thing, cuz there's a big thing about feet. You know that you don't walk on things. You don't, you don't drop books on the ground.

Michael: And that makes sense. Finally, he was on Arsenio hall, really with sugar Ray Leonard and Mike Tyson, all three of them. All

Amit: three of 'em. Oh, just been a big couch Arsenio that day.

Michael: Yes. Although, I mean, he's much less expressive because of the Parkinson's at this point. Yeah.

Amit: So that's it. There was no question.

He was hitting the trife on this that's right. I have to throw in one bit of trivia. Do you remember the different strokes episode he was on? I only

Michael: saw that he was on it. I never saw that. So I

Amit: do actually remember seeing it, but what I learned in the last few days, you know, he did all these rhymes when he was speaking.

Yeah. And he had a different strokes for different folks was actually accredited to

Michael: him. What do you make of this claim that he originated hip hop,

Amit: basically. What they say is that the way that he spoke. And the way that he rhymed words was essentially exactly how hip hop was mimicked in the seventies when it was quote invented.

Yeah. As well as the, the sort of Bragga do show that goes into hip hop. Yeah. So I don't know that I agree with the word invented. Hip hop to me. I don't know if it's so much the speaking and the rhyming it's the boasting. Yeah, totally. It's the, it's the first person narrative

Michael: about yeah. And trash talking too, right?

Yeah. Yeah. A hundred percent.

Amit: Yeah. And they said, I mean, hiphop was so politically motivated really after the seventies. Yeah. In a lot of the. Public enemy.

Michael: Yeah. I think they even did like a documentary or something. Um, about Ali.

Amit: Yeah. Yeah. It was called like Ali rap, I believe. Yeah, essentially. Yeah. A lot of that is part of Muhammad Ali being this black countercultural singular voice.

Michael: There's also the album you listened to some of this, was it called? I am the greatest 1963.

Amit: Yeah. That's when he was Cassius clay. And it's just basically a bunch of him just speaking. It sounds like to a crowd. Yeah. And just talking shit about his

Michael: opponents, you know, boxing is sort of like stand up comedy in a way it's like such a naked performance.

It's so elemental. And so. Simple and what it is, get up there. Throw punches. Yeah. Full stop.

Amit: Well, no, I think that's why Muhammad Ali is so important and so adored because he threw punches with his mouth. Yeah. As well as with his fist, everything about him is throwing, punch everything. It was the exact same.

What, what does coming out of his body was with the same sort of depth, speed and drink power. Yeah. That was coming outta his mouth

Michael: for his first reading. Mr. Clay will honor us with a recitation of his classic poem. I am the greatest

I am the greatest by Caius clays. This is the legend of Cassius clay, the most beautiful fighter in the world today. This kid fights great. He's got speed and endorse, but if you sign to fight him, increase your insurance. Category seven over, under, in this category, we look at the generalized life expectancy for the year.

They were born to see if they beat the house odds. And as a measure of grace, So a life expectancy for a man born in 1942 was 71.4 years old. He lived to 74, but of course the final decades of his life were suffering from Parkinson's.

Amit: Yeah. Cuz this is the second half of the question is grace. Yeah. And he is.

Diagnosed with Parkinson's in the early eighties.

Michael: That's right. But I think there is uncertainty because scientists are so reluctant to say anything with any kind of certainty about whether the beatings that he took and the ring contributed to this degenerative disease, because Parkinson's, I did a little bit of a crash course on this.

It's more like the cold than anything. Like the cold is not a single virus. Like it's. Catch all term for a variety of symptoms, right? Parkinson's is like that. There's not necessarily a single Parkinson's disease, but there is something that we can be diagnosed as Parkinson's common sense would sort of like suggest like, uh, there's a relationship here between getting hit in the head as often as you did and what looks like brain.

I think people are reluctant to go that far because we can't really know. I think story wise, it's kind of incredible that you have this man who is, as we were talking about a minute ago. So singularly like powerful, everything about him is thrown a punch his body, his mouth, his mind, and then he lose. All of that.

It's an incredible sort of twist of fate

Amit: and the very possibility that they are, what took it away from him. Right.

Michael: I also think because Parkinson's removes his ability for expression, we really kind of don't know what's going on in that mind as time goes on. Yes. He becomes mysterious in terms of the inner life.

Yes. In some ways it looks terrifying and haunting. Right. I don't want a disease like this. Nobody does. So

Amit: the image that we all have, or that I especially have is the 96 Olympics. Yeah. When he is lighting the flame and shaking.

Michael: And by the way, I did read that shaking is as a result of the medication, not the disease itself.

Yes.

Amit: My grandfather had Parkinson's and I do remember the shaking.

Michael: Are you able to port over any lessons to what we see in the later decades of Muhammad Ali's

Amit: life? It just looked awful. You know, he would hallucinate a lot. Is it, is it a nightmare? Kind of looks like a nightmare. It kind of looks like a nightmare, but I don't think in my grandfather's case that he suffered as long, the last six years, he needed help all the time.

You know, he would hallucinate, he would shake. It was bad. Yeah.

Michael: Especially compared to a guy who at one point looked like he was the most powerful man had ever lived. Well,

Amit: again, we do not know the inner monologue. We don't know the level of peace you feel inside, but outwardly

Michael: is horrifying. Yeah. Well, let's take a break and then we'll get to the inner.

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Michael: category eight, the first of the introspective categories, man in the mirror, what did they think about their own reflection? Obviously loved it.

Loved it. Love me. And even as he's older, he is looking back. Look how pretty I was. Oh yeah. I love the way he uses the word pretty too. Yeah. Is that all we looking at? Is the first half of his life

Amit: or are we, no, I think we have to look at the second, cuz he even had a direct quote, not too long after diagnosis when he was on the today show and he watched the tape and he said something.

The fact of when I used to watch tapes of me, I'd see how pretty I am. And now I look and I'm just an old man. Yeah. And he said this in his early forties.

Michael: Yeah. Let's go with, loved it for now. And let's get into this little bit more and we get into good dreams, bad dreams. Fair enough. Okay. Cuz it's the same answer for me in terms of the next category, outgoing message.

How do we think he felt about the sound of his own voice on an answering machine and would he have recorded his own voicemail? Yes. And yes. As his condition worsens in age, I think he probably mourned the loss of his voice much more than the loss of his good luck.

Amit: Yeah. He liked it. Maybe even more than boxing.

Yeah. Like just his ability to form words and to scream them. But them still be kind of hilarious and cruel at the, the same time

Michael: it accent too. So

Amit: God it's so catch banging. I mean, listening to that album from 63, it really like, I really enjoyed it. His charisma is

Michael: coming out everywhere. Yes. Okay. Category 10 regrets, public or private.

What we really wanna know is what, if anything kept this person awake at. There's actually kind of a lot. We've talked about some of it turning this back on Malcolm X, I think was the biggest one. Huge one huge one. So when Malcolm X comes back from his pilgrimage to Mecca, he sort of had a falling out with the prophet Elijah Muhammad in the nation of Islam.

Yes. And

Amit: Malcolm X is also accusing Elijah Muhammad publicly of having affairs with his secretaries, which

Michael: is. And Muhammad Ali was clear on regretting, not sticking by his friend, Malcolm X, prior to his death. He was also publicly remorseful about his indel and his, uh, womanizing. He also said I don't regret any of the fights.

This is where I have questions about the private regrets. Like he was part of some nasty fights long past when he should have been, especially that match with Larry Holmes. Where he just gets the shit beat out of him. Yep. And at that point, like he is done, he should have been retired. His trainers were telling him to retire four years before he did.

And he keeps getting in the ring. Man, you gotta wonder if he didn't regret some of that. He says he didn't, they don't want you to go on getting hurt in the ring. I never got hurt his strange, oh, you did a very good actor. are you calling me liar? No, no. The match that I watched, I think it was the third one with Joe FRAs.

Looks like the most brutal thing I've ever seen. Like both of those guys leave the ring completely mangled. They go, the distance Ali wins in a, uh, in a decision, but they, they both just look

Amit: miserable. Yeah. And I think Ali even said, we went into that ring as champs and we came out as old

Michael: men. Yeah, that's right.

I think that is the fight where he said that. And the thing is like Joe Frazier being. Like number one, rival. And there's also, this should be mentioned in Republic regrets. He was particularly nasty in his trash talking with Joe Frazier. And a lot of commentators I saw were really critical of Muhammad Ali.

And just how far he went, especially calling among other things, Joe Frazier and uncle Tom. And Ali said, I, I should not have said those things later in 2002, I think he expresses a regret around that. Yep. Joe Frazier never forgave him though.

Amit: Yeah. And there was, uh, sunny Leer, same thing used, used to call him list in.

He used to call him a gorilla. Yeah. Extremely pejorative word to be used against another black man, especially at the time. Exactly. And he regrets.

Michael: This came up in the quiz. Like there were idiosyncrasies, I think, was the term that was used in paradoxes and who he was and what he represented. And this is another one of them.

Mm-hmm okay. Category 11, good dreams, bad dreams. This is not about personal perception, but rather, does this person look haunted? Do they have a look in the eye that suggests turmoil or demons? Unresolved trauma? I went bad for a couple reasons. I don't see it as much when he is a young man and. It's hard to know as he ages, but certainly as the Parkinson's is getting worse, the look in the eye does look haunted to me.

I think that there's an inner struggle going on. Whether he found peace and serenity, I don't know, from the outside looking in, it looks like a nightmare.

Amit: I did write down the word. Good. Wow. And this is going back to the manifestation of the man just seemed to have an ability to delude himself into having no boundaries and having no limits and actually believing he was the greatest in the world far before he was the greatest in the world.

And whatever neurons were firing to give him that optimism. I think we're still letting him rest peacefully at night. I don't know enough about the scientific impact of Parkinson's, but I'm just gonna play a little bit of wishful thinking in that the glory day still came into his dreams. Well,

Michael: I'm still going bad dreams overall, but I think that there's a case to be made.

And even you gotta feel like the sense of fate, the destiny, cuz at some point he's feeling the wave of history, carrying him through. I'll tell you this. When I. I'm having bad dreams, which I sometimes have. And I wake up in the middle of the night, the place I'm trying to get to is one of surrender and telling myself it's all gonna be okay.

And like, I'm not in control of all these things. Yes. So when I'm able to absorb and really internalize that message, I have good dreams.

Amit: Yeah. I'd like to

Michael: believe. Category 12 second to last category, cocktail, coffee or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity?

So maybe a question of what drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person or another philosophy. So that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them that you're most curious about.

Amit: I don't think he did any three of these. He didn't. I think he drank Coca-Cola.

Michael: Yeah. That's okay.

I think I'm probably gonna go. With alcohol. And I think this is like an unrealistic drink that we have together. This isn't a, you know, cheers Muhammad let's have a drink. This is a truth serum. I want to know how he's doing really as the Parkinson's gets worse, who is inside there. Yeah. And how he's dealing with it day to day and how he copes with what looks like a tremendous amount of suffering.

I'd want to have a drink and find out.

Amit: Yeah, I landed on the same. Exactly. As you said, I do think he's hilarious. And I think he could entertain me. I think he could crack me up. I also need the truth serum for that reason that you said, but what I'm most interested in is these conflicts that I brought up the idea of you.

Committing to the spiritual religious path and comparing that with the beating of other people, for a living and the broken treatises of marriage, despite whether they knew or not. But I want to hear it because neither you or I could really come to terms with that after sitting here and researching it for a few weeks of what we think about that.

Michael: So I think we've arrived. We're at the VanDerBeek named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said and varsity blues. I don't want your life. You know who this one reminds me of is Neil Armstrong really? In the life of extremes way. I mean, what boiled down to with Neil Armstrong is do you wanna lose a four year old child and travel to the moon or not?

Mm-hmm , you know, there are some unbelievable extremes in this guy's life. Mm. He transcends so much. He is this historical figure. He is going to be remembered. For seems like forever. And there's very few athletes, whoever arrive at that place. And then to be at the center of this, you know, transitional, transformational decade in, in American history and like all that he symbolizes and means he is a political figure in a way he's a social figure.

He's an entertainment figure, you know, and then to have this fate of all of these things, Taken away bit by bit. It's sort of exhausting to look at you know,

Amit: so we're talking about essentially two halves of his life, almost literally two halves. Yeah. He won the gold medal in. Uh, 19, 19 60, when he was, he was 18 years old.

Let's talk about that as his rise. And then he gets what, another 18 to 22 years of greatness on the world stage before everything starts melting. Yeah. But is this about math? It's having. And I think Muhammad Ali said something to this effect is more good days than bad days. Yeah. Right. Maybe that's what it is is it's about math.

It's about more good days than bad days. And that's a hard argument. To make, if you're gonna go ahead and just assume that the second half is mostly negative marks. Yeah. But I am not gonna assume that because like I told you, I had some of that wishful thinking mm-hmm , this is me exposing, uh, and insecurity, but the man was adored and I think he goes into any room down any road into any arena.

and he lights it up and I think he gets chills every time. And I think that that continued well into the diagnosis and what he lights up in people from what they remember him saying or doing and meaning. And I want that. And I'll run that risk, but I'm gonna just place a wish that he still had it somewhere in there that the world loved him.

And so I'm a, yes. I want your life Muhammad Ali, this

Michael: life exhausts me a little bit. I don't see a whole lot of opportunity for peace until it's forced upon him. I don't know. Maybe that is a gift. I also do see with the infidelity. And I don't know if you wanna call it sex addiction or something, but a kind of crossing a line of how important you are, an ego run and muck.

I don't wanna be the greatest at five things, but I wanna be the greatest at one thing. I think I don't even know what that is yet, you know, in the kind of city slicks way, one thing, but I also want greatness coupled with humility, which to me means. Knowing when to lead and when not to, he is a worthy hero more than I think maybe anybody else we've talked about on this show?

I wanna be celebrated. I want validation for greatness, but I don't want it so much that it goes to my head and that I betray my own values. I think I need to be a little bit more common. I'm so glad I got. Get ready for this episode and learn all this stuff. And he is somebody who I'm gonna tell my kids about, but I don't think I want this life on it.

I'm gonna go. No, cuz I gotta give an answer. Yeah. But talk to me tomorrow. I might be. Yes. All right. I think we're there. You ready? Not at all. Okay.

Amit: But I'm, I'm gonna do

Michael: it. You are Muhammad Ali, you have died. You're going before the Unitarian proxy of St. Peter at the Pearl gates, you have an opportunity to make your pitch.

The floor is yours.

Amit: St. Peter. I got paid to stand up. I got paid to make sure I never fell down and that I made somebody else. Fall down, but other than my opponents, nobody else fell down. I lifted everyone else up. I brightened up a room. I brightened up a nation. I stood up, not just in the ring. I stood up for what I believed in and I never backed down.

I taught the world to stand up for what you believe in. And I also told them. You can fight. You don't have to fight like I do. You don't have to fight with fists and throw gloves. You can fight with your mouth, or you can fight by refusing to go. But this is a world of will. No one should ever take your will.

From you. That's what I left on this earth. Let me in.

Michael: Thanks so much for listening to this episode of famous and gravy. If you're enjoying our show, please tell your friends about us, help spread the work. Find us on Twitter. Our Twitter handle is at famous and gravy, and we also have a newsletter which you can sign up for on our. Famous and gravy.com famous and gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me Michael Osborne.

This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss, original theme music by Kevin Strang. Thanks for listening.

Amit: See you next time.