094 Chief Maragrita Officer transcript (Jimmy Buffett)

Listen to the full episode and see show notes at this link.

Amit: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2023, age 76. He was an accomplished author. He was one of only a few writers. The likes of Ernest Hemingway and John Steinbeck among others, to top both the times' fiction and nonfiction bestseller lists.[00:00:30]

Friend: That sounds like Norman Mailer,

Michael: not Norman Mailer. I don't even know if he's dead. David McCullough. Not David McCullough. He moved to Nashville in 1970, hoping to make it as a country singer while working as a journalist for Billboard Magazine. Holy cow.

Friend: Okay.

I don't know. I don't know. Gosh. Okay.

Chris Christofferson,

Michael: not Chris Christofferson.

Love that guess. All right. He wrote music for movies like Fast Times at Ridgemont High and Urban Cowboy. He also [00:01:00] appeared in movies including Rancho Deluxe and Jurassic World. Oh my goodness. I think when you tell me this, I'm gonna go, what,

Friend: uh, is Kenny Rogers. Still with us.

Michael: Kenny Rogers is our ninth episode, as it turns out.

Oh, so it's not Kenny. Not Kenny Rogers, but a very good guess. Very good guess. He first visited Key West in the early 1970s at the urging of Jerry, Jeff Walker, his sometimes songwriting and drinking partner.

Friend: Oh, [00:01:30] is this our parrot head? Jimmy Buffet. I got it. Jimmy Buffet.

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Jimmy Buffet.

Archival: Boy, that's tough. What Margaritaville was to me is, uh, it was a combination of some places when I wrote the song and it was, its basic pure escapism from the humdrum and the dull routine of normal day life. Everybody wants to go where it's warm and everybody, you know. [00:02:00] I think their image of a vacation is sitting by the beach with whatever your cold drink is you want there, but it's something to do with, with being by the beach and, uh, being away from what would be your normal life.

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

Amit: And I'm Amit Kapoor.

Michael: And on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. [00:02:30] What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today?

Jimmy Buffett died 2023, age 76.

I'm excited that we get to do this in the middle of winter, the escapism of Jimmy Buffett. It seems like a very appropriate time to bring him back into the foray.

The tropics are always in the CD case if you're talking about Jimmy Buffet. All right, category one, grading the first line of their obituary.[00:03:00]

Jimmy Buffet, the singer songwriter author Sailor, an entrepreneur whose Rish brand of island escapism on hits like Margaritaville and cheeseburger in Paradise made him something of a latter day folk hero, especially among his devoted following of so-called parrot heads. Died on Friday. He was 76. I've got some things to pick apart, but I'm saying first impression.

I love it. I also [00:03:30] largely love it. I am glad that they got all of these identifiers in here, singer, songwriter, author, sailor, and entrepreneur. I. Awesome. He was more than just one thing. He was a brand, right? Yeah. Rish brand of island Escapism perfect. Something of a latter day folk hero love, latter day folk hero.

And I also love his devoted following of so-called Parrothead.

Amit: I don't like these ambiguous words of something of a latter day folk [00:04:00] hero and so-called parrot heads.

Michael: I kind of like that actually. Why? Because there's something colloquial about it. There's a familiarity with Jimmy Buffett. I mean, he's got an every man kind of quality to him.

I think he is something of a latter day folk hero. I, it's not couching to me. It's more, it's how you would say it. What about so-called

Amit: parrothead?

Michael: What's wrong with that for you?

Amit: Why, why not Just, why not just say parent heads? I think you have tens of thousands of people that are a little offended at so-called.

Archival: It's been wonderful for me and I feel [00:04:30] so privileged to have fans that are that loyal. I mean, I just don't understand it, but I appreciate it so much. I don't even try to figure out why. I'm just glad they are. And the fanatical ones, they'd get a little fanatical, but they're, they're looking for something and I hope they're getting it.

Michael: Maybe. I think the audience for this is non Jimmy Buffett fans as well as Jimmy Buffett fans, and I think if you are a Jimmy Buffett fan, you know what a parrothead is, and if you don't, then you do need that separated out, so called parrot heads For the uninitiated is a helpful way of saying. [00:05:00] This is what they called themselves.

Amit: You convinced me there with the people not familiar with the Jimmy Buffett entourage, so to speak.

Michael: The broader audience as it were.

Amit: Yeah. Yeah. Got it. I, I must say, before you get into your big thing, I really like rish as, yeah. Vocabulary word that stuck out. Yeah. Because Rogue ish doesn't really imply rogue.

It's rogue ish. It means you're mischievous, you're playful, and I think they did that really well.

Michael: I also love Island escapism. I mean, I think his old character, his is brand escapism. Yeah. The whole thing, like that is the [00:05:30] big idea with Jimmy Buffett. Okay. My big thing. Okay. Your thing?

Amit: Yes, please.

Michael: I really take issue with putting Margaritaville and Cheeseburger in Paradise on the same level.

Margaritaville by far and away his biggest, most well-known song and one that became a kind of volcano cashflow cheeseburger in Paradise. Is not the second song anybody should ever choose with Jimmy Buffett. I don't think it's the first song and the greatest hits album. Well, okay, [00:06:00] let me go into this a little bit.

So I had a two hour long conversation last night with a a so-called parrot head. One thing I came to appreciate on a deeper level, and this really tracks with my experience of the research. For this episode is that there is a big, broad fan base that went to the concerts and bought the merchandise that loved everything he represented, but within that, a subset of his fan base that really loves the singer songwriter Deep [00:06:30] cuts, the songs you don't know.

Sure. And I think that there's actually a sharper division within that fan base of like. There's the kind of drunk party songs, and then there's like wistful, thoughtful storyteller songs. Margaritaville is interesting to me because I think it transcends both those. Mm-hmm. I think Margaritaville is a brilliantly written song that also is celebrating a cocktail cheeseburger in Paradise is really only celebrating the silly aspect of Jimmy [00:07:00] Buffett in a way that I think is, it's almost like a joke.

Amit: So what would you substitute?

Michael: Well, I think Son of a Sailor could be in there. I think come Monday could be in there. I mean, I don't know if you would choose a second song, actually, because I do think Margaritaville, in a way, exists in its own category of importance and of legacy. Here's something I did that maybe I shouldn't have gone down this rabbit hole, but I'll tell you, I went into all the famous and Gravy archives to look for other examples where two things were [00:07:30] referenced in the first line of an obituary.

Wow. So I'm gonna give this to you very quickly.

Amit: Lovely.

Michael: Alan Rickman. We got Diehard and Harry Potter. I'm okay with those being in the same category.

Amit: I think we were very okay with that.

Michael: Leslie Nielsen airplane and Naked Gun. Perfect. No notes. Patrick Swayze. Ghost and dirty dancing. We had to talk it out.

But those are the two to go with Nora Ephron, when Harry met Sally and sleepless in Seattle. Good. Yeah, that works. Lights are kind of in the same ballpark. I think when you choose two things that a person [00:08:00] did, you are maybe demonstrating range and maybe demonstrating, like if you don't know this one, you also know this one.

I really don't like that they put cheeseburger in paradise and I think that they undercut. Jimmy Buffett, they make him seem more shallow than he is,

Amit: but those are meant to be examples of island escapism, right? It's brokerage, brand of island escapism on hits like Margaritaville and blank.

Michael: There's other examples.

Amit: I [00:08:30] honestly just, I just think you don't like cheese brown and paradise.

Michael: That's sort of true. I think it's annoying. You grow tired of that song pretty quickly, and I think the rest of his catalog, both the hits and the more obscure songs, uh, have more durability. And I do see the case for it. And if you, by some miracle are unfamiliar with the song Margaritaville, you've probably heard she's Burger in Paradise.

Yes. Somewhere. And you're right that it is in relationship to Island escapism. I just don't think it's the best [00:09:00] example of that. Okay. I think there's better examples of that and I wish they'd gone into different, your official

Amit: choice is either A, just leave it at Margaritaville or B substituted for another song, which I wanna know what your true vote of another song would be.

Michael: Well, lemme just say I have a strong preference for a, I think it should have been just at Margaritaville. I think changes in latitude would probably be the one I'd go with. But let me just say once again, Ahmed, I love everything else about this obituary. Like this is without cheeseburger in Paradise.

This is a 10 out 10, but it just [00:09:30] annoys the hell out me. That cheeseburger in Paradise wound up in the first line of Jimmy Buffet's obituary. I, I didn't take issue with it. When you say it like that, aren't you a little bit offended, aren't you? A little offended you.

Amit: Little bit of offense.

Michael: Okay. I've got my score.

Okay. Eight outta 10. It's a two point doc. I thought about a three point doc. It's not everything else in the obituary makes up for it for me, so I eight out 10.

Amit: Okay. I was nearly a 10 outta 10 until you brought up this cheeseburger argument. I was gonna take away one for so-called pair [00:10:00] heads and now I hear you out.

I don't take big issue with it, but I hear you on the cheeseburger in Paradise selection. So for you Michael, I'm gonna dock it one and it's gonna be a nine, but this is, this is pretty excellent.

Michael: All right. Category two, five things I love about you Here, Amit and I develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived.

Why don't you start, I'd like to hear you lead us off. Okay. I'm gonna

Amit: tell a little bit of the story that he only had one top 10 hit. Yeah. This is excluding the five o'clock [00:10:30] somewhere. Yeah. Of the duet with Alan Jackson. But Margaritaville peaked at number eight on the billboard charts in 1977. I. The only one of his songs to ever even reach top 10.

Yeah, it was the 14th most popular song of 1977. Right? That's it. Yeah. So this person who essentially built an empire did it with no number one hits and the 14th most popular song of 1977.

Archival: Everybody just assumes that I've been around so long that I'd of [00:11:00] course would've had a hit our number one album, including me.

I, I forgot sometimes that I never had one.

Amit: So why this is something I love is Jimmy Buffett is as organic as it comes. Hmm. Right? He was not built on chart topping hits. He was built on slowly built Legion of adoring fans. The fact that he could do that, and I don't know that there's any other examples except for maybe the Grateful Dead.

That's the one that comes to mind. Yeah. And so I love gonna use the word [00:11:30] organic again. I love the organic nature of his growth and following an empire that he did it without chopping charts. Just to go back to Margaritaville being included in the obituary, which we both found extremely necessary. Yeah, by some accounts, it is the most profitable song in the world.

If you just think of the song as a brand.

Michael: Right

Amit: that all of this was built on the 14th most popular song of 1977, and I just wanna leave it at at at that. And I think that tells the entire story of how Jimmy Buffett became Jimmy Buffett Enterprises.

Michael: [00:12:00] For me, what I love about it is the un unlikeliness of it all, that it really is a body of work that goes on to succeed.

Not one song that. Yes. Margaritaville I think does stand out among the rest, but the cult of Jimmy Buffett and it is cult-like in a way

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: Has this quality about it, of, of just like luck on some level. And he even seems to play to that, that my God, somehow I pulled the right lottery ticket. [00:12:30] And I think that is also aligned with the character of Jimmy Buffett.

When I read the biography, there was a line in there that was something about like, he had this quality. That so many people could look at him and say, gosh, if I had only made a couple of decisions differently, that could have been my life. Right. You know, having a big mustache and a sloppy smile on a beach somewhere.

Amit: I think he said that at the end of that, like, I should be playing at a state fair at 3:00 PM Right. That should have been my career.

Michael: And he seems so delighted by the [00:13:00] unlikeliness of it all. And I think to your point, it's not because of any. One hit wonder. It's actually because of the kind of slow growth in the mythology building.

Yeah. Okay, great. Number one

Amit: onto you for number two.

Michael: So. I really like how he aged. Mm. He grew more successful with time. It seemed as if his arrow was turning down in the eighties and into the nineties and then it went the other direction. It went up and [00:13:30] not because necessarily of new music. I also like, he makes this point somehow I never had to go to rehab.

You know, everybody else I know who had a kind of character that was envious and that was public, kind of went south. Hunter s Thompson, I think is an interesting point of comparison. And then the two of them were really good friends. Jerry Garcia, like there are these icons of the counterculture and I don't know, into the seventies where they were struggling with stuff, whereas earlier parts of their [00:14:00] lives looked extremely enviable.

Jimmy Buffett actually sort of stayed enviable, even though he settled down. He's right at that boundary for me, between alcoholic and heavy drinker, like that's an important. Line, that's an important boundary and the fact that he was able to settle down and focus on family, I think is kind of awesome. He did die a little bit young of skin cancer.

We all expected at least 15 more years of Jimmy Buffett, I think. I [00:14:30] guess so. But he didn't even expect to make it to 40 or 50. Yeah. So I think that there is a graceful aging and he also looks really good as an older guy, you know? Yeah. He looks good in glasses. The smile was all time. Smile. I like the aging of a party guy who can have a relationship to his past where hell yeah, partied a lot in Key West back before the tourist showed up and I had a big mustache and there was a lot of drugs and a lot of post 1960s hedonism.

But that's a chapter of my life and [00:15:00] that's not the whole story, but I can also still celebrate that chapter of my life.

Archival: Let's talk about your drinking and drug days. It could be current. Uh, I don't know. Are you? No, they're not. Well, how did you get the, the reputation? Probably somebody that looked like me.

I have an alter ego that goes out, Uhhuh and Frank Buffet. So Frank gets in a lot of trouble, Uhhuh and uh, but I get blamed for it. You appear to be healthy and like you said, you did live through it so. Good for you, I guess. Yeah. Yeah. It's still, it's still like fun to visit occasionally,

Michael: so I just like the trajectory here.

I [00:15:30] made a similar point in Jerry, Jeff Walker, that I kind of like the chapters in his life. I really like the chapters of Jimmy Buffet's life. I.

Amit: Okay, great. I agree with it fully onto me for number three, diverse creative friendships. And I think I need to bring this up because you just mentioned both Hunter s Thompson and Jerry, Jeff Walker, but the amount of people that Jimmy Buffett had in his life as close friendships, not as just.

Passing casual friendships speak to the reason why there are four or five commas in the first phrase [00:16:00] of his obituary. He had tight relationships with the Eagles. You mentioned Jerry, Jeff Walker, Alan Jackson, who he performed with on a number one single, and then you're more obscure kind of country, or Gulf and Western artists of people like Gary p Nun.

And then you had the Author Grout. He was very close friends with Truman Capote, you mentioned Hunter s Thompson, and then Herman woke, who he co-wrote a musical with. And then my favorite friendship that he had was with Warren Buffet, who they actually did A-D-N-A-A test to see if [00:16:30] they were related. And ultimately it was inconclusive, but they did have a very close, mutually respected friendship of each other.

They would give each other sort of business advice. I think Jimmy was more on the receiving end of it. Yeah. But I think these three categories, and there are much more of his close friendships, really speaks to the reason why Jimmy Buffet had such a well-rounded life and age so gracefully, as you said in the former point, but it's so reason why he is so singularly hard to categorize as either [00:17:00] a singer or a businessman or a Escaper.

I don't know. Yeah. He's a little bit of everything because he surrounded himself with these

Michael: people. I think that's a really good way of putting it, that there are real deep creative friendships and there's a lot more, I mean, there's this whole documentary I watched with this kind of creative community that existed in Key West in the early seventies.

There were poets and artists and thinkers and authors. I mean, really, there was a moment in time there that he was born out of and very comfortable with, and I love that, Ahmed. I think that's a really good [00:17:30] observation about his creative friendships because they persist throughout his life. They're varied and they're interesting.

Okay, I'll go number four. I think that he's got just the right amount of embellishment in his stories. I've been thinking about this a lot that I didn't. Think of storytelling as a skill taught in schools or that we train for, but it's something that that I think a lot about with my kids, and it's something that I look for in other people.

There are of [00:18:00] course, natural storytellers out there, but there are some people who develop the skill of storytelling, and I think it involves. Walking the line of having just the right amount of embellishment where it feels a little bit hyper reality, a real, a little bit enhanced, but not so much that it's bullshit.

And I think that Jimmy Buffet walks that line really well. I think he's got this attractive power because of his ability to have just the right amount of embellishment as a storyteller.

Amit: Okay. I love the word embellishment. [00:18:30] I think I have a little bit of that quality, just little tiny embellishments in my story.

Michael: A hundred percent and well, and I think like it's a good thing to do. It's not necessarily stretching the truth if you tell a story, if you're embellishing at the margins, but it, it does a lot and it's important. In fact, I would take it even a step further and say. It's kind of important that we embellish our own autobiographies.

I mean some, one of the ways I kind of think about the ego and the mind is that in my head, I'm telling the story of me. We're all [00:19:00] kind of ego obsessed this way, and I think as we edit our stories, the stories of who we are, we should have some freedom. To do a little bit of embellishment. Jimmy Buffet never actually ran drugs.

He didn't, in the seventies and eighties, make enough money to buy Miami.

Amit: He was searched quite a few times.

Michael: Right. And it's because of those embellishments that he kind of gets in these scraps without ever getting in too much trouble. How much

Archival: of your work have, have you lived? A lot of it, and I've come through some scrapes.

And, uh, I've been very lucky [00:19:30] in that respect. Are we to assume from that, that you've smuggled marijuana? No, I did not. I was accused of it several times and spent a few days in jail for it on a French island. It was.

Michael: And I love that. I love that. I think it's an important quality and it's one that like I want to be a little bit more intentional about as I tell stories about myself or the people who I'm in relationship with.

Yeah. Okay, great. What do you got for number five? I've got

Amit: a nice little story to tell and maybe it has some embellishment to it. Okay, let's do it. Okay, so my number five is the power of Corona. [00:20:00] So we know Jimmy Buffett, and we're gonna get into this a lot in net worth, I suspect, for building an empire of Margaritaville Enterprises.

But before that, he is actually the person responsible for bringing the Corona culture. To where it is right now. So when I say Corona, what is the imagery that comes up and that you think of?

Michael: Oh, I mean, you know, beach, Palm Tree. Blue Ocean. Correct. Prior

Amit: to Jimmy Buffett, Corona was a working man's beer. It was lot of, a little bit more [00:20:30] of a Budweiser, but.

He signed a deal with them to promote his concerts as well as campaigns with it, and that is when all of this tropical idea, all the iconography of Corona came to be. And during this Corona actually vaulted from their position in the imported beer market and improved it by. 800%. Wow. Okay. And where they became the number one imported beer in the United States, displacing Heineken.

All of this was due to Jimmy Buffett, and this is [00:21:00] foreshadowing his ability to create culture. And I think he created this entire culture, which we're gonna get into through the rest of his own enterprises. But this was the beginning of it, of showing his singular ability to fill a need that obviously existed within the world, illustrated by this one example with Corona.

Michael: That's so interesting. I mean, it's not hard in retrospect, obviously, to see Jimmy Buffett's fingerprints on the Corona brand, but to think that Corona was not associated with Island escapism [00:21:30] prior to Jimmy Buffett is sort of astonishing. I mean, it felt, it's kind of like anything he touches becomes associated with island escapism.

Turns to limes. Turns to limes. Yeah. Well said. Awesome. Okay, so let's recap. Number one, you said. 14th

Amit: most popular song of 1977.

Michael: Yeah. And I supplemented that with the UN unlikeliness of it all. Number two, I like the way he aged in that. He missed rehab. Number three, you said creative friendships. Uh, diverse creative friendships.

Number [00:22:00] four, I said just the right amount of embellishment. And number five, the Midas touch of life. Yeah. Alright, let's take a break. Category three, one Love. In this category, we each choose one word or phrase that characterizes their loving relationships. Before we select our word of phrase, we will review the family life data.

So two marriages. First marriage. Margie married in 1969. Jimmy me was about 22, 23. They were [00:22:30] divorced in 72. He was 25, 26. It's often described as a failed marriage. Just didn't work. Yeah. Marriage number two was to Jane in 1977. The Eagle sang at their wedding. They were estranged for six years, so they got married and then were estranged for a period of time.

Reconciled before they split. They had their first child, Savannah, born in 1979. When they got back together, they had their second child, Sarah, born in 1992. Then their third child, Cameron. Born [00:23:00] 1994. He's adopted. Jimmy was, I thought this was noteworthy, 46 years old when Sarah, his second daughter was born.

I mean, that's a seventy nine, ninety two, thirteen year difference or so between oldest child and second child, the reconciliation. There's not a whole lot of information out there about it. What happened, Jane, his second wife, was there and supportive as, because they get married right around the time Margaritaville comes out and while that isn't yet sort of stratospheric Jimmy Buffett, [00:23:30] it is a major step up in his fame and and popularity.

She tires of the party lifestyle. They were headed towards divorce and she gets sober.

Amit: Yeah, she actually does go to rehab.

Michael: But then they reconcile in 92 and stayed together till the rest of his life. The only other bit of relevant info is that he is indeed the son of a son of a sailor.

Archival: Yes.

Michael: And there are other autobiographical points of truth throughout his songs.

What did you have for your one word? My

Amit: phrase [00:24:00] is margarita swirl. Okay. So I found four ways that this works. Okay. One, you order a margarita, you get it. It's looks very different. It's not what you expected. And so you may send it back, so that might be Margie number two, why margarita squirrel works. It's unexpected, and I think unexpected for me here means that Jimmy Buffett was essentially like in two relationships, and there was not much in between.

For a guy that, again, portrayed the hard partying lifestyle. Perhaps with a certain bit [00:24:30] of embellishment, as you say, it was quite surprising to me that he never actually had this high flying groupie type of lifestyle. Number three, there's kind of chaos in the middle and it's not purity all the way through.

So when we talk about the marriage to Jane, right, this was not from 1977 until death. There was this estrangement for what? Something like five to eight years. Yeah, I think it was like six years. Something like that. Yeah. Yeah. So the sangria squirrel in the margarita is this kind of chaos in the middle, but it's still a tasty beverage, [00:25:00] if you will.

Michael: I like that. It's chaos in the middle. That's where it's where all the tequila congeals in the middle. Yeah. And so

Amit: that's where it, it comes around to my number four point of why I like this phrase is it doesn't look normal, but it is the frozen concoction that helps him hang on. Once everything was reconciled and even the times before, it seemed like a very beautiful, mutually respective, loving relationship.

Michael: I agree. Okay, I'll give you mine. I said Magellan esque. Magellan esque. Magellan [00:25:30] esque. So Magellan was the explorer who was the first to circumnavigate the globe. And the, the thing about them being estranged and then reconciling. That is really striking and I kind of love to see it. I loved to learn that without getting any more details on what was the center of the tension for the estrangement.

It's not hard to imagine. I mean, he is absolutely a partying character. I think so much so that it's obviously a burden for him that everybody wants to like take him out and get him [00:26:00] drunk and you know, he makes jokes about like, I don't need people buying margaritas for me ever again. Right. Yes. But there was something about like, if you love someone, set them free.

This idea that, you know, they needed to be estranged for a period of time and he needed to circle the globe on the ocean in a boat. This is a metaphor of course, right? But then that's not little

Amit: embellishment.

Michael: It's a little embellishment, but then come back around. It's something I know I need in [00:26:30] my marriage that there are times where it's just a little.

Too much proximity and I need to go on a trip. I need to go make my way around the metaphorical globe and then come back so that I can appreciate and love what I have at home.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: I'll also say this, this didn't fit in with the Magellan Point, but did you see these videos he did with his daughter during Covid where fans could write in and say, I've always wanted to hear you play this song, and it's just him and a guitar.

That video series is awesome. Yeah. [00:27:00] He really seems like. A dad who makes pancakes on Saturdays.

Archival: I read this article in the New York Times about Bruce Springsteen talking about himself as the pancake cook for his kids. I think that's what all of us did one time more than now we find ourselves doing this.

He might be idolized by 20,000 people on Friday night, but Saturday morning you're just the pancake cook.

Michael: From what I could see, I saw an involved and loving father, and I gotta say like. I personally prefer Jimmy [00:27:30] Buffet with just a guitar. I like Jimmy Buffet a lot, but I had an experience coming to love his music and discover a lot of it that I did not know about in researching this episode.

Archival: But I can help be ru in consistency now. You need just to be in love.

Michael: So Magellan esque. Magellan esque. All right. All right. Category four net worth. [00:28:00] In this category, ahed and I will write down our numbers ahead of time, and then we will discuss our reasoning. We'll then look up the net worth number to see who's closest and finally.

We'll place this person on the famous and gravy net worth leaderboard. This one's a little different 'cause I think you and I both bumped into the numbers and weren't able to avoid it. We did not. '

Amit: cause any article you read or interview you come across says the billionaire Jimmy Buck. Yeah. Right. So it's definitely hard to bury.

Michael: Yeah. We're gonna, we're gonna [00:28:30] approach this category a little bit differently than normal, but let's go ahead and do it. So it's interesting. Yeah, as you said, the word billionaire is used, so we both know we're already dealing with north of a billion. I kind of want to go ahead and just share our numbers because rather than talk about how surprising it is, I want to talk about how we feel about the actual net worth number am Kippur wrote down 1.1 billion.

Michael Osborne also wrote down 1.1 billion. [00:29:00] Jimmy Buffet's net worth. They just say $1 billion is what I'm saying.

Amit: They just say, I I had a feeling that they were gonna do that.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, when it gets to that level, they just sort of say, well, it's more than a billion.

Amit: Yeah. I don't think they're gonna report separately until it hits like 1.5.

So you said you want to discuss how we feel about it, let's do that. But before, I think we owe the audience a little bit of explanation of exactly like why this number is so astronomical.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, if you had [00:29:30] told me before either of us stumbled upon the number that it was a hundred million, we would've said, holy cow, Jimmy Buffet's got a hundred million dollars.

I guess that makes sense to hear the. Billion is somehow like I, I have a little bit of whiplash around

Amit: it. Yeah. 'cause let's not forget, you know, prince was 160 million. Tom Petty was 90 million. Like this is, uh, this is

Michael: rare air category. It is not easy to hit the billion mark. It's shocking.

Amit: Okay, so he was a [00:30:00] Perennial Touring Act, and as of 2021, they said cumulatively he earned about $800 million from all of his tours over those 40 or 50 years of performing over

Michael: those many decades of touring.

Yeah,

Amit: yeah. In the two thousands, meaning 2000 to 2009, he was the 10th highest grossing touring act, and included in this category is U2. Bruce Springsteen, Elton John. Yeah. So Jimmy Buffet, our 14th most popular song from 1977 is a top 10 touring act in his mid fifties into his [00:30:30] sixties.

Michael: Not a lot of other bands from the seventies can make a similar claim.

Amit: Correct. And then come 2018 when he's in his own seventies, by this time he is out. Earning Ariana Grande and JLo. This is just on tours. Maybe he had, you know, the kind of Tom Petty type of numbers of, uh, Tom Petty prints kind of numbers of a hundred to 200 million from the tours. The vast majority definitely comes from Margaritaville Enterprises, which Okay.

Has revenue of about $1.5 [00:31:00] billion even to this day. Is that not shocking to you? Oh, it is hugely shocking. I mean, this is a mega corporation. This is, there's 5,000 employees. Minimum that work directly for Margaritaville Enterprises? Is it just a really well run organization? Amit? It is a diverse organization.

So, uh, and in here, here's a list that you're gonna, that we're gonna have some fun with, right? So it's hotels, casinos, cruise experiences, and retirement communities. All of those 30 plus of what they're calling lodging [00:31:30] related industry. There's 120 plus restaurants, bars, and cafes. There's packaged foods, beverages including land shark, lager, spirits, home goods, appliances, for example, like blenders, uh, apparel, accessories, beauty products, even, which this is fragrances and candles, culinary sets.

My favorite bicycles. Oh, um, yes, people are buying Margaritaville branded bicycles and these 120 plus restaurants, bars, and cafes. These [00:32:00] aren't all in Cancun, in Jamaica, there is one in Tulsa, Oklahoma. That is my personal favorite location of a Margaritaville Barn restaurant. So this is the entire industry that's earning $1.5 billion a year, and it is all done with him and his partner.

John Colon, I believe is the name, essentially it is the two of them. And I think certain stock went into employees and so forth, but you're talking about a billion a half dollar company, essentially owned and run by two.

Michael: Ah, okay. Let me talk about how [00:32:30] I feel about this for a second.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: Part of me feels like there's some real hypocrisy here.

There is this sort of beach bum character at the center of who Jimmy Buffett is and why we love him, and the culture of the music that is more about the air, the salt, the sea, the sunshine. Not about material gains and private property and ruthless capitalism. I mean, it feels really in stark contrast to the Jimmy Buffett brand.

Amit: Yeah. Because it's not, it essentially doesn't [00:33:00] become island escapism anymore.

Michael: Right. There is such a thing in my head as too much money he did have. Enormous influence in the realm of conservation. He did have a very big philanthropic presence. So there's ways in which I think I'm looking for, and even finding avenues for forgiveness around this, but some of this feels a little greedy.

Amit: Yeah, it, it feels a little greedy. It makes the lifestyle less believable. What I wanna ask you is, did [00:33:30] you ever perceive him as a sellout?

Michael: That's an interesting question. No. Somehow no, but I feel like the excuses I would make for him not being a sellout have to do with bigger, broader critiques. I have around ecotourism, around just real estate development and, and along the Caribbean and in the Gulf Coast that I don't quite lay.[00:34:00]

Blame at his feet and that I don't think he hides from it in any way and that it is, it's funny, I, I find myself wanting to make excuses for him and I think it's 'cause I like the music and I like the singer songwriter in him and I like his story so much. There's a sense of adventure and wonderlust around who Jimmy Buffett is and that there are still.

Corners of the world that are largely untouched by [00:34:30] humankind and civilization. And if you get there at just the right time, you can soak in the vastness and beauty of nature. And because that fantasy is very powerful for me and I think very powerful for his entire fan base. I want to excuse the fact that he.

Profited to the tune of north of a billion dollars. But that's a great question. I don't know that I have a clear answer for it. I mean, what about you? Do you think he's a sellout or did you ever [00:35:00] perceive him as a sellout?

Amit: Honestly, once I didn't, I never perceived him as it once doing all this research and that there's so much written about his entrepreneurial empire.

I do kind of feel it a little bit, but I never perceived it. And the reason I think is that everything is so on brand that you don't really, it's not like, I mean, yes, he is selling blenders and bicycles, but I can't quite. Put my finger on it. It's somehow different than if he were out there selling headphones.

Yeah, right. 'cause everything, everything is tangential to this idea of island [00:35:30] escapism.

Archival: It's in there from the songs. It really is. And it's what they want. They want a great cheeseburger to go, a margarita. Somehow or another. I've put my, um, on the pulse of escapism and we market it pretty well.

Michael: I mean, in a way I feel this, despite the kind of gross commercialization of it, like we're all here for.

What is a great idea and so I just don't want to argue with that. Too much, even if I can see that it has harms and consequences. [00:36:00] So yeah, I don't know. I think I'm a little bit closer to a feeling of resolution, but I think I'm gonna walk away from this category and the Jimmy Buffett story, always having a little bit of like, man, I can't believe it was that much.

You know? Yeah. Before we move on, I'm at. Let's place Jimmy Buffett on the famous and Gravy leaderboard. Correct me if I'm wrong, this puts him at number two.

Amit: Yeah, number two, behind Ross Perot. What's interesting is our last episode on Elizabeth Taylor was number three, so for regular listeners who have tuned into each one, you have witnessed the creation of number two [00:36:30] and number three, but this is in a category of its own.

Yeah, between let's say Perot and Jimmy Buffet's and Elizabeth Taylor, those three equal 50% of the entire wealth of famous and gravy,

Michael: I had an analogy once upon a time for seconds in time. Do you remember this on the Ross Perot episode? Yes. I'm gonna reference this. So, you know, back when we did the Ross Perot episode, I had a little bit of trivia for you and I said.

Do you know how much time 1 million seconds is, [00:37:00] and do you remember?

Amit: Yes, I do. And

Michael: I remember I

Amit: was pretty close on the guess.

Michael: Yeah, it's about 11 days. So if you had $1 for every second, a million seconds is 11 days. If you had $1 for every second, and you're talking about a billion seconds, that's 31.7 years.

We conflate million and billion so easily, and yes, this is part of the reason I think I feel so unsettled by Janet Buffett's net worth.

Amit: Yeah, [00:37:30] I mean, I think what's interesting is to contrast him with his contemporaries like we've talked about, of perhaps David Bowie, prince Tom Petty, all of these big time artists who may have been top 10 grossing touring acts, but the plus of Jimmy Buffett puts him in a category of his own.

Michael: All right. Next category. Little Lebowski, urban Achievers.

Amit: They're the little Lebowski.

Archival: Urban achievers. Yeah. The achievers. Yes. And proud. We are of all of them.

Michael: In this category, we choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, or some other form of a hat tip that [00:38:00] shows a different side of this person.

You wanna go?

Amit: Yeah, I'll go. So I didn't realize this was in the quiz at the top of the episode until we started recording, but I have to go with Jurassic World 2015. Yeah, there's kind of a double cameo here. So like all the Jurassic movies, there is a park and I. It goes awry and dinosaurs kill people. In this particular one, there's a big kind of party plaza around that has a Margaritaville restaurant included in the film.

So when they had asked and they were [00:38:30] negotiating nice product placement. Jimmy? Well, no, this was the, this is the funny part of the story, and this is actually why, one reason why I like it so much is when they approached Jimmy Buffett or Margaritaville Enterprise, it's about using the likeness of the restaurant in the movie.

Jimmy said, oh, can I be in it? And so he has a very small non-speaking role. That when the, what are they called? Terror sources. They are released out of their captivity and they start attacking all the tourists, and so they show kind of a [00:39:00] montage of everybody running. Jimmy Buffett plays a bartender who as chaos is unfolding and everyone's running for safety.

Picks up two glasses of margaritas, one in each hand and holds onto them as he escapes from the dinosaurs in the wild. So although this was 2015, this has passed the Jimmy Buffett who avoided rehab, he, that, that image of I'm running for my life, but I'm doing it with two margaritas in my hand. And then he still did that in 2015.

I just absolutely loved, and I [00:39:30] loved how he nosed his way into the movie.

Michael: I think that speaks to my thing number four, my Aged Well point.

Amit: Yeah. Yeah. So we'll, we'll put a clip of that scene in the show notes, but it's really lovely. I love it.

Michael: Okay. For my little bosky Urban Achiever, in 2015, Jimmy Buffett was awarded an honorary doctorate in music from the University of Miami, and he gives a commencement speech to the graduating class at the University of Miami while wearing Ray bands, while wearing Ray bands and [00:40:00] flip flops.

Here's why I chose this. So honorary degrees, there's a lot of very popular authors, poets, artists, singer songwriters. Here's what I love about it. I think Jimmy Buffett is more of an intellectual than we give him credit for. I think he is in this tradition of Mark Twain and maybe Steinbeck, and you know, his mom wanted him to be a writer.

He talks about not being a good. High school student at all and all these nuns in Catholic school berating him [00:40:30] for being lazy about his homework. He fails outta Auburn at one point and ends up graduating by the skin of his teeth, I think in at Southern Mississippi. And he talks about when he moves into writing books, which he does.

I mean, this was also in the quiz that he had both fiction and nonfiction bestsellers. He discovers a real love for. Writing books. There's a kind of intellectualism inside of Jimmy Buffett, the same guy who wrote the song, why don't We Get Drunk and Screw? I think [00:41:00] that he is actually living a life of the mind in a way more so than you would think, and.

The way the crowd and the kind of, I don't know, academics are responding to having Jimmy Buffet on their stage celebrating, you know, college graduates. It's almost like they can't believe we're putting this guy on stage with a gown.

Archival: James William Buffet, for your enduring impact on American culture as a gifted at a gifted musician and storyteller whose songs continue [00:41:30] to enhance the quality of life for generations of people.

Congratulations.

Michael: It showed me a different side of him. I don't know if his music is going to endure. I don't know if Margaritaville Enterprises will continue to be a cash cow or if he's just a moment in time who is somebody who happened to catch the right wave of interest in a tropical lifestyle. But, but I don't know.

I think that before we just sort of send them off. [00:42:00] Into the history books. There is a storyteller here that represents a much deeper, longer, more important tradition, and it's captured for me in this honorary doctorate. Okay? Yeah. Okay. Let's take another break. All right. Category six words to live by. In this category, we choose a quote.

These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them that resonated for us in a certain way. I'll give you what I got. Older and wiser voices can help you find the right path if you are [00:42:30] only willing to listen. It's a respect for your elders point that I think is very true in his life, that Jimmy Buffett sought out mentors.

One of the first most important people was his grandfather, that he was very much at odds with his father. 'cause he was a rebellious adolescent who wanted to have a rockstar lifestyle, but his grandfather. Really had traveled and really did implant this idea of wonderlust and the sea and exploration [00:43:00] that set him on a course at a young age, and he talks about this.

He says, I've always had a little bit of deference for my elders. I love that about him, and I need to be reminded that older people have something to teach me if I am willing to listen. It's simple, but it's a reminder.

Amit: Yeah. Not what you'd expect from somebody who symbolizes a Rish brand. I. Indeed. All right.

What do you have here? So, kind of along the same lines, but this goes back to what you said about the way he gracefully aged. Mm-hmm. So my words to [00:43:30] live by was, I still have a very happy life. I just don't do the things I used to do. So this is referring to him kind of abandoning the hard party ways, minimizing the marijuana, still drinking, enjoying his glasses of wine and margaritas, his beers with friends, and a little bit of vaping weed from what I understand, but certainly notched down several degrees from the eighties.

Michael: Quaaludes and cocaine are on the shelf now.

Amit: Yes. And why I like this is, I mean, one, it speaks to me a lot in the tendency I have to kind of freeze frame that an [00:44:00] ideal future is a continuation of the present. Right. Continuation of the best things of the present. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But I think what Jimmy is saying here, and he said this.

Quite late in life is that a life well lived is actually an entire different representation from what worked previously.

Archival: I went through the phase when I wrote the song, sit Now with all the personal experience, I was doing a lot of the things. I mean, I was, I rocked and I had a roaring time for a good many years and I don't.

Apologize for it, and I don't [00:44:30] regret it, but I don't do it anymore and I wouldn't advocate it to people. I was a lucky boy to get through a lot of this stuff.

Amit: It's a painfully obvious point because I think I have a tendency to think that the way to keep myself happy or make myself happy is to relive the parts that have already been happy.

Totally. The real truth is that there is tons of new opportunities for happiness around the corner that you just possibly cannot see. Right now from your present tense,

Michael: it really looks, when you look at how [00:45:00] he navigated the second half of his life, that he's very aware and conscious of that there is more privacy around him.

There is still a profiting and leaning into the Jimmy Buffett character performer brand. Mm-hmm. But he has like the exact right proximity and distance to that character from what I can see. Right. And he's unlike some other people who are. Sort of enslaved or entrapped by that. He seems like able to step into it just enough and [00:45:30] step right back out of it as he gets older, such that he's not constrained by all the sort of freeze framed associations that we may have with the island Escapism identity.

Yeah. Yeah. Good ones. Okay. Category seven, man in the Mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment. I just wrote, I mean, hell yeah. Right? I mean, it's not

Amit: ambiguous.

Michael: Yeah, it's unambiguous.

I think we just spoke to this a little bit. You can make a [00:46:00] case for feeling trapped by the character, but I think he manages to skirt around that. And like I mentioned earlier, he's just got an all time smile. Like those smile wrinkles are real. So I see tremendous amount of self acceptance.

Amit: Yeah. The two things that tipped off for me were self-belief, which is a part of self-acceptance and he had a ton of that obviously, to pursue the, all the different things that he continued to pursue and also just had a a lot of.

Thankfulness for it. There was one great interview given at the American Library of Paris [00:46:30] where he was asked if he ever gets tired of playing Margaritaville, and he was like, are you kidding me? This thing has given me so much. Yeah. He's like, I am. I'm grateful every time that I have to pick up a guitar and play it.

Michael: We've talked about this so much. Gratitude is everything, right? Gratitude is I think what you get when you like arrive at the right. Inner peace around the right balance of your ego and ambitions as well as being of service. And he certainly seems to have that. Yeah, I think that's still gotta say [00:47:00] still still 31.7 years worth of Dollar a

Amit: minute.

Yeah. Dollar a second. Dollar a second.

Michael: Yeah. Dollar seconds. It's still sort of, it's a little funny. Okay. Category eight coffee cocktail or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. I'll just say all three are tempting and like I would love to have a cup of coffee.

I'd absolutely love to share a joint with Jimmy Buffett, but I, once again, I decided not to go with Margarita. I decided to go [00:47:30] with boat drinks. I'm thinking some sort of rum cocktail here. Rum and punch. I. Yeah. You know, something red and Yeah, I, I think I, I just like, I don't, I just, I just want to get drunk with Jimmy Buffet on the beach.

Yeah. You know, there's not a lot of, I don't, for the most part, miss drinking that much Ahmed, but if I had an opportunity to have a rum cocktail with Jimmy Buffet somewhere, you know, in the islands. So that's one of the more tempting scenarios that I could possibly dream up. And I think it'd just be fun.

I think. I'd love to hear the stories. I think I'd love to hang [00:48:00] out. I would. I guess like to push on this question a little bit of like, Jimmy, what are you gonna do with all the money once you're gone? Tell me a little bit of the plan. You're gonna set up the family, right? I believe that, but I also want to believe that you're going to give back something really substantial here You've been.

Gone a year now. I haven't seen that yet. Yeah. And I'm still hoping for it. And, and in a way I am still hoping for it. And I, who, who knows, who knows where this goes. And maybe with those kinds of sums, it takes some time to sort that out. [00:48:30] If I have one question, that's it. But just because it does seem so disconnected with everything else, I love about the guy.

Amit: Yeah. I say, what about you?

Michael: What'd you go

Amit: with? Again, I, I had to choose, like you said at the beginning, it's easy to see any of the three. Yeah. Uh, ultimately I landed on cocktail with a coffee like conversation. Okay. So there is a line that I absolutely love in, I believe it's in changes in latitudes of.

Ran into a chum with a bottle of rum and we wound up drinking all night. That that is what I want to do. I want to run into Jimmy Buffett, like on a beach somewhere in [00:49:00] Bart, like we're old friends, but meeting for the first time. And I don't wanna have this wildly drunk and swaying conversation. I wanna get at kind of the questions that we brought up at net worth.

Yeah, one, what the hell drives him so much to keep producing and keep building out beyond any sort of wealth that you could ever remotely use?

Michael: That's a great question about Drive Ahmed. I just wanna pause on that for a second because I can see the joy of performance, you know, the [00:49:30] applause, the adoration more than any other performer I can think of.

He seems to take that in. But is that the sum total of the drive? I mean, that's a great question and I think it is in a way, the big mystery still here.

Amit: Yeah. I mean, a lot of his ethos is just doing things that he can get away with. Yeah. And so maybe it is something like that. He is like, I can get away with this.

I'm beating a system of sorts by taking this very circular path and indirect route to this type of [00:50:00] creation, entrepreneurship, and wealth. And maybe that's it. But I have a. Pretty strong feeling that Jimmy Buffett has a different answer to that. And he has, 'cause he speaks intelligently to every question he's asked.

And so that's the conversation I want to have. But like deep, deep, deep into the bottle of rum. Like I want him slurring this answer by hour three or four.

Michael: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. It's a beautiful saying. Well, I'm glad we didn't overthink that either. Okay. All right. I think we've arrived. The final category, the VanDerBeek named after [00:50:30] James VanDerBeek, who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life.

In that varsity blue scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kind of life based on a single characteristic. So here Ahmed and I form a rebuttal to anyone skeptical of how Jimmy Buffett lived.

Amit: I think what's interesting at the top here is that I think Jimmy Buffett actually had the Vander beet conversation with his own father.

His own father was like, I want you to live a traditional life.

Michael: The shipyards, right. Or something. I forget what it was, but it was something very [00:51:00] conventional or Yeah,

Amit: even edging more corporate. But no, he, he himself was the rebel that way.

Michael: I mean, I have to say, James VanDerBeek saying to Jimmy Buffett, I don't want your life.

I, I'm not sure what point he's making here. Like, you and I always start with a counterargument of, okay, I want to understand where James VanDerBeek is coming from. When he says, I don't want your life. Sure, there's a certain amount of alienation that's gonna exist with this level of fame and certainly with this level of wealth.

Yeah. But in terms of a [00:51:30] desirable life, my God, I am hard pressed to come up with a more, obviously you kinda want this life. Yeah. We're always harming and hurting somewhere, I guess. And if you're of a certain kind of political persuasion, you are of the belief that capitalism is a zero sum game and for anybody to acquire this much wealth.

Somebody had to get hurt somewhere. And that there are consequences to, I don't know, factory workers in third world countries or environmental degradation or the ills of [00:52:00] the world. And I suppose you could lay some of those at the feet of anybody who gets to B billion dollars. Yeah. In life. I just looked this up.

There's only, if you look at how many billionaires there are today, it's under 2,800. It's, it's 2,781. Okay. As of April, 2024. So it is not that many people, whoever get there. So I, some of that is maybe valid that there is maybe that is symbolic of a certain kind of selfishness that is unattractive. That's, I, if there's one [00:52:30] counterargument that I'm sympathetic to, it's probably that.

Everything else about this life though? I, I just don't feel like this is gonna be a hard one for us to put together, but I don't know what, what about, what do you think?

Amit: I think there's also this singular brand association that you have to live out. And although we pointed out that he did a. Pretty good job at aging a certain way and not living it out.

He is forever associated with palm trees and margaritas.

Michael: What's wrong with that? I don't know. Like he, he's the singularity of it. I think the guy likes surfing and fishing. Yeah, [00:53:00] I suppose so. But I mean, he's also associated with travel in Wonderlust. He's got a home in Aspen. He's swapping, you know, and New York.

York

Amit: City as well. Yeah,

Michael: right. He's not bound by geography in any way, shape or form. And he does seem. More than most people. Very in his element. Yes. Uh, you know, that is well put in a tropical setting. Yeah. I'm thi

Amit: I mean, I'm fishing here with, and no pun intended, I, there's not

Michael: a lot to the counter argument.

There's not a lot here. I'm sorry, James, but maybe what we need to do here, just to [00:53:30] wrap it up, is be more. Pointed and specific about why this is a life you would want. Absolutely. I do think that the whole story, the arc of the life and aging well is one of the top arguments for me. I think that there's also just a creation of joy and of celebration that is almost cult-like in how people identify with it and.

He's, he's got a very, very, very high approval rating here. To me,

Amit: that's the biggest one, [00:54:00] is he is a purveyor of joy. Like we only talked a little bit about the parent heads, but his brand is joy and his essence is joy.

Michael: Yeah. So I mean, thing number one, I would say the story and a and a life well lived thing.

Number two, purveyor of joy, if I had a thing. Number three, I think that there's also. Largely consistency of values that he reconciled with his second wife, I think is wonderful that he spends Covid with his daughter, interviewing him about some of the fan favorite [00:54:30] songs, and it's just him and the guitar that he was able to give himself over to conservation.

I mean, I see a lot of value consistency there. Yes, there's some hypocrisy, but there's always some hypocrisy. So this is a life well lived inside and out. And with that, I mean. James VanDerBeek. I'm Jimmy Buffett and you want my life.

All right. Speed [00:55:00] round plugs for past

Amit: shows. What do you got on it? I'm going with John Madden episode was called Game Changer, and I think it's the, this idea of building an empire around your profession that is not your profession. So Madden was a football coach and later an announcer, but the fact is with the video games and so forth.

He had a much larger empire around him, which was equal parts of his legacy.

Michael: Okay. I am so tempted to go with Jerry, Jeff Walker because I, we didn't touch on it enough, but Jerry, Jeff is all but responsible for setting buffet [00:55:30] to Key West to build his identity and, and life Viva Bojangles. But instead, I'm gonna go with.

Bill Paxton Goofball Stud. I didn't get a chance to plug this in my Urban Achiever Award, but he plays coconut peat in a movie called Club Dread, where he's got a famous song, pina Colberg, and it's one of my favorite Bill Paxton roles. And there is a kind of laid back, goofy lifestyle about both these guys that if you like Jimmy Buffett, you might also like.

Our episode on Bill Paxton, [00:56:00] goofball Stud. Nice. Good pull. Thank you. Here's a little teaser for the next episode of Famous Eng Gravy in the late sixties, he was hired as a jokes editor at Playboy Magazine, where he moved up to associate editor. He also joined second Cities touring company.

Amit: Okay, so he's a horny actor,

Michael: aren't they All?

Amit: Is also into improv, famous and gravy [00:56:30] Listeners, we love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello at Famous and Gravy dot. Com and you will hear back from one of the two of us in our show notes. We include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels.

Famous and Gravy is created and co-hosted by Mike Osborne and me, Ahmed Kapur. This episode was produced by Ali Ola in original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks and see you next [00:57:00] time.