099 Crikey Inner Child transcript (Steve Irwin)

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John: [00:00:00] This is Famous & Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousenggravy.com. Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2006, age 44. He was an bulent staple of American talk shows ranging from The Tonight Show with Jay Leno to live with Regis and Kelly.

I got nothing

Archival: dead. McMahon ,

Michael: not Hank McMahon [00:00:30] who did not die at age 44 in 2006.

Archival: Oh yeah, you're right. He was older.

Michael: His American born wife was his business partner and onscreen

Friend: CoStar. So this tells me he's not American otherwise. I dunno why we would've said that. Uh, Regis Filburn,

Michael: not Regis Filburn, who I think also lived past age 44.

Archival: Oh my God. Look at, yeah, you're right.

Michael: His fame engendered books, action figures and interactive games.

Friend: Oh, [00:01:00] ah. Killing me in 2006 at 44. This is, yeah, this is Perplexing , an Action Hero and a talk show host died at 44 with, okay, so I guess Clark Kent is out. That's like not gonna work

Michael: for a time tube. Watching pub crawlers played a drinking game, hoisting a glass every time.

He said crikey. Or isn't she a beauty? Oh, the crocodile

Friend: man. [00:01:30] What was his name? Steve Irwin.

Michael: Steve Irwin. Today is dead celebrity is Steve Irwin

Archival: It is just that I've gotta get the camera. I've gotta be right in there because this day has come where the audience, you need to come with me and be there with that animal. Gone are the days of sitting back on the long lens, on the tripod and looking at wildlife way over there. Uh, [00:02:00] come with me, share it with me.

Because humans want to save things that they love. The reason I've been put onto this planet is to save wildlife.

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And I'm John Watts, and on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. [00:02:30] What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today?

Steve Irwin died 2006, age 44. Okay, so Ahmed is away, and we decided we needed an expert for this episode. I was fortunate enough to find John Watts. I asked John to send me his biography and this is what he sent. John Watts is the chair of the Department of Reptilian Entertainment Studies at Southern [00:03:00] North Dakota University, where his research explores the intersection of performative conservation, mid two thousands, television enthusiasm and the semiotics of khaki.

A leading voice in the field. His work examines the mythmaking of Australian Eco Heroism and Wildlife Retaliatory encounters. His forthcoming book, wrestling with Legacy Steve Irwin and the theatrics of conservation, has been described by critics as quote, startlingly specific. You were really proud of yourself when you wrote that.

I, [00:03:30] so John has no special expertise, ? No.

Archival: I'm a nobody

Michael: incorrect. And actually I turned you on to Famous Engrave.

John: Absolutely. Yeah. And

Michael: I think the first episode you listened to was Angela Landsbury. Oh,

John: 100%. Yeah.

Michael: And do you remember what you said to me after that episode?

John: Yeah. I said, I think you need a gay Yeah.

to do the show.

Michael: So that has stuck in my head for a long time because now I don't know, like when do I need a gay and what does he mean by that? And is Steve Irwin do I need a gay for Steve [00:04:00] Irwin? I think so. You need a gay

John: Whenever. Okay.

Michael: Whenever

John: possible there's, yeah. Pull one in. Do

Michael: I need it? Like, especially for Steve Irwin?

John: I think so.

Michael: See, here's the thing. I did not know Angela Lansbury was a gay icon, and I think that's why you said that exactly. Well, you is, is Steve Irwin a gay icon?

John: I would not call Steve Irwin a gay icon. Okay. No. Okay. But I think like that there's a, a respect. Okay. in the community. Okay. For, uh, Mr. Irwin, let's go for it.

That's all we needed.

Michael: Let's go for it. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. [00:04:30] Steve Irwin, the khaki clad wildlife stalker who won global fame with his televised death defying crocodile stunts and whose booming voice made crikey in a ripe Australian accent. An international catch word was killed by a stingray yesterday while filming a documentary at the Great Barrier Reef off Australia's northeast coast.

He was 44.

John: If I could summarize this first sentence. Yeah. In one word it would be reductive.

Michael: [00:05:00] Reductive . Oh, wow. Okay. So you're coming outta the gates. Critical. I had the exact opposite reaction. Okay. I thought this was like 11 outta 10. Oh God. No. I love this. So you're, oh, I don't like it. Let's hear it. Why not?

What's wrong?

John: First of all, we hit khaki clad. Okay. Accurate. I'm, I'm here for the great. Yes, we know this is the uniform. You know, he was a little like Steve Jobs or Richard Simmons in that way. Mm-hmm . We only saw him in this getup. Good comparisons. Okay. Televised death defying crocodile stunts. Feels, Hmm.

[00:05:30] Like this man had six seasons. Of a television show about nature conservation. Yeah. It was much more than just kind of wrestling crocodiles to me. I know they called it crocodile hunter, but, uh, and I guess that was, it's sort of the initial gimmick. Yeah. But there was just so much more to him than that.

Michael: In other words, televised death, deifying, crocodile stunts makes it sound like that's the only thing that the crocodile hunter was about.

John: Right. Exactly. Okay. Like that just wasn't part of his entire ethos. And then the, I think booming voice and ripe Australian accent, [00:06:00] uh, catchword. Crikey. Okay. Yeah. Yes.

That definitely sums him up in a lot of ways, but I think they wasted a lot of space with booming voice and ripe Australian accent. I don't even really agree that his voice was booming. I would say it was enthusiastic. Yeah. They could have said zealous. Okay. Fervent. Yeah.

Michael: Okay. Anything else but booming? I see that point.

Damn. Okay. Wow. Okay. I, I'm gonna defend some of this. You have made some very valid points. I'm coming down. Let me give the case four. Khaki clad wearing wildlife [00:06:30] Stalker. I like stalker. You like stalker? Well, I think he is kind of a stalker. He's a little bit antagonistic. He's, I don't like stalking, but I do think that, like to describe him as a wildlife stalker is

Kind of clever. You're giving me a look.

John: I just feel like stalker has such a negative connotation. ,

Michael: well,

John: sort of like where, where do we go from there? I mean, it was called Hunter Stalker. I, I, I mean like, but it was almost like they looked for a synonym for Hunter. They were like, oh, you know what? We can't say that twice.

So look,

Michael: okay. [00:07:00] Stalker in the real world is obviously a negative thing overall. But Wildlife stalker, I mean, that does, let me back up. They, they check some very big boxes here. Khaki clad, crikey ripe Australian accent. International death defying. I, I mean, I do think that there's a lot of essential Steve Irwin boxes checked.

You are poking at the nuance, which I think is appropriate and it's okay. I'm

John: poking. I'm gonna poke this nuance. But also, do we need to say that he was killed by a sting rate? Yes. The man handled crocodiles [00:07:30] and venomous snakes for a living, and then he is killed by one of the more . Docile sea creatures in the, this is what they put in petting zoos world.

This is true. This

Archival: is true.

John: SeaWorld is like, this is not, I feel like they're doing them dirty, you know? So, okay. And then finally they waste a lot of real estate on giving us the full XY coordinates of where he died. Yeah. The grape barrier reef in Australia's nor, I mean, so they get

Michael: superfluous. There's way more in here than we did

John: just say the Great Barrier Reef.

We got it.

Michael: Like a true academic, you are poking at all the little [00:08:00] itty bitty holes than otherwise. Oh. Don't

John: get me started on some of the missing commas in here. They're not even really giving me great grammar.

Michael: Alright. What's your score? I was just great. What is your score? Four. Wow. Four. I'm giving this an eight.

I I disagree with your stance. I think that yes, booming voice is the wrong phrase. They said a lot of stuff they didn't have to say exactly, but I do think he is death defying. I do think the visual is that of a man who is kki clad. You know, you hear crikey and you think Steve [00:08:30] Irwin. Yes. And I, they have to get the nature of the death.

'cause it was, even though maybe not . Quote unquote surprising. It was sudden it wasn't how we thought he was going to go 100%. So, so we, we all predicted something else for Steve's demise. Exactly. And so did he in the wild and Yeah. Seriously. Um, so I actually feel like we needed to say this is important information that we lost him to a stingray.

Okay.

John: Okay. I could say that and maybe that's all right. But are you're sticking with your four?

Michael: I do. I'm sticking with that four. Okay.

John: I think they did 'em dirty and I'm not here for that.

Michael: Alright. [00:09:00] Four and an eight. Let's

John: move on. I'm Steve Irwin pill. I can't, nobody's gonna change my mind. ,

Michael: category two, five things I love about you here, John and I will develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived.

Why don't you lead us off? Alright. Wonderful. Nature

John: show disruptor. Nice. Okay. Say more. Yeah. Nature shows were not sort of up close and personal with wildlife before this show, so he really changed the way nature shows could be done. We [00:09:30] had David Attenborough. Yeah. And we had Marty Stouffer's, like Wild America.

Yeah, yeah. Um, they took this sort of like observational, like poetic approach, like long lens and also weren't focusing on these reptiles that were scary. They were looking at, you know, birds, and like things that are beautiful and it had incredible cinematography and insightful commentary and all that.

But Steve Er was like hands-on, energetic, adventurous. She's a little bit grumpy. This girl. You know what? You have

Archival: shockingly little control over that animal. [00:10:00] Yeah. . Wow. Look at that. For tooth structure. She's got the capacity to tear your legs off going. Yeah. Well I think you're in the worst situation right now.

She's really cute that way. Like she's got the big Betty Davis eyes, cute little bottom. Okay. And she's hissing. That's a sign of aggression that's like, don't muck with me. Okay. Good. Good. And you're the one that's irritating it on national tv. Absolutely.

John: And I think that also . Was this brilliance of the cameraman.

An editor of his films was John Staton. Yeah, his buddy. Yeah. Yeah. [00:10:30] His buddy John who got in this sort of ins. I feel like he got his inspiration for film from like the show cops.

Michael: Totally. I was thinking about like Steve Irwin, this whole researching this episode inspired me to think a lot about nineties tv.

Yeah. And I wrote down David Attenborough meets Johnny Knoxville. Yeah. , right? Like this is like, there is actually an aesthetic in the nineties with cops, with Steve Irwin. With jackass of what I wrote and this overlaps is right up in there. Yeah. You know, right up right up in there. And this, I, I think I [00:11:00] need to bring this up early.

The south park impersonation of him. Yeah. I'm gonna take this, my thumb and stick it up its butt. And that's gonna get this make call. Excited. That, like that, that is the aesthetic.

Archival: Oh boy. He's pissed off. Now go do, go. I'm gonna jam my thumb in it, but on this should really piss it off. Oh yeah. That pissed it off.

Off. Oh, I gotta be careful. This guy rules

Michael: what the boo, I tell you guys to use your language disrupting. This was not how nature [00:11:30] documentaries were done right here. Two, four. I mean, he is a precursor for. So many like TikTok stars, he creates an aesthetic that we then imitate in a lot of different formats and categories.

Oh yeah. Of entertainment, right? Yeah.

John: Yeah.

Michael: But yeah, right up in there, nature documentary disruptor.

John: Exactly.

Michael: Okay. I love it. And I'll say one more thing. I wanna talk about this more in a later category about whether or not that is an effective form of raising awareness. That is his case, right? Yeah. Is that like, I'm going to take you right up in there.

Right. like [00:12:00] I need to avoid That's a good one. You did a good job. Thanks. I was feeling, I was channeling that. Yeah. But it is his theory of the case that by doing that, I bring you in proximity and you develop a relationship with wildlife, even apex, predators, even otherwise unlovable organisms like crocodiles and snakes.

Yeah. That's debatable. And I think that's a real question about his legacy, potentially misguided. Yeah. But that is

John: exactly what he thought. Okay. Let's come back to that later was happening. Mm-hmm .

Michael: Perfect. One to lead us off. Okay. I'll take number two. I just wrote. Inner child, you [00:12:30] know, we all talk about our inner child

He never develops an outer adult like he is a big kid. Yeah. Through and through. And he's got childlike energy. You see some of this in his kind of roughhousing attitude, you know? Yeah. I mean, so obviously he's willing to hop out of a car and chase after wildlife and very kind of rough and tumble. He's also a surfer.

He's really, really into MMA fighting. He was a rugby player. Yeah. . Um, all of these are like kind of, I don't know, big dumb animal boy things. [00:13:00] Yeah. In a way, you know what I mean? And then more than anything, uh, and this is where I'm gonna get a little sentimental. I think his inner child also holds true to a sense of nature connectedness.

And I think children are born with this. Mm-hmm. Right. And one of my grand strategy for raising my kids when all else fails is, let's go outside. Mm-hmm . And it's, it's amazing how kids respond to Mother Nature. That is the thing that he never outgrows, that I think none of us should ever outgrow, you know?

Yeah. If there's anything I really admire about him, [00:13:30] it's that he doesn't have this division between the real human world and the nature world. Like he stays true to a sense of nature connectedness. Which for what it's worth, there's an unbelievable amount of research out there about how nature connectedness is correlated with positive psychology.

John: Oh yeah.

Michael: And it's an inner child thing.

John: Yeah. I think it's like, uh, they even say, you know, . Our proximity to trees. Mm-hmm . Is important. Like forest bathing. Yeah. And now we Exactly. Forest bathing, that's a thing. Or no? And, and, and if you're, you know, you see it now in social [00:14:00] media. It's like people, if, if people are getting too wound up about the internet, people say, go touch grass.

Totally. They're like, just go outside. I believe

Michael: in that. And

John: that is true. Yeah. 100%. It's a grounding phenomenon.

Michael: And I, I think no matter, like you don't necessarily have to have the same relationship to wildlife that Steve Irwin does to recognize that. No, God no. Yeah. I saw you sl .

Archival: I think we could. I don't think anybody could.

I think it could,

Michael: but I do think that that is the like core quality that his, is his attractive power. Yes. Right. That we're [00:14:30] not afraid of hugging animals, or whatever. So that's my thing. Number two, what do you have for number three? I said fear of parrots

Archival: now. Okay. Is there any animal out there that you can't handle?

Is there an animal that you just can't deal with? Parrots. What do you mean parrots? I don't do parrots, mate. What? What's wrong with parrot? I can handle parrots. You just parrots. What Aren't you scared of? Parrots. First thing they do is they, you know, suck in with hello, cocky, hello cocky, and you go in whack.

They're hanging off your nose trying to pull your nose off.[00:15:00]

Michael: this is the one animal he's afraid of. This is the one animal he is afraid of. He is

John: actually afraid of parrots a little bit, which makes. I think him human. Look at this. This person who is just like running up, like just fully grabbing snakes.

Michael: Venomous animals. Venomous animals and scorpions and all kinds of stuff.

Only

John: grabbing crocodiles by the head. But he's afraid of parents. He said this in a 2002 interview with Scientific America. He's also did this, uh, said this Koan O'Brien. They had these powerful beaks and that one time he had [00:15:30] a pet parrot that bit him on the nose. Yes. Like right in the septum. Yes. And it just made him gush blood.

And he said that, I'm just really uneasy around parrots, . And I was like, thank God, . Thank God this

Michael: man's like, we found her an Achilles seal. We

Archival: found it. And it is a, it's a two can . It's a

John: parakeet.

Archival: This is,

Michael: so there's a thing you love about him is that he's a afraid of par. Yes.

John: I needed him to be like vulnerable, vulnerable and fearful of something for me to connect with him in a way, you know, that [00:16:00] makes sense.

There's

Michael: a notable lack of parrots on his show. . You don't see him, any of them .

John: And now we know why.

Michael: All right. I'll take number four. Yes.

John: Unless there's more you wanted to say on the front. I mean, I just, I also like it because I once broke up with a guy because he had a parrot. Did you really? Oh yeah. Just a funny story.

Like I didn't break up with them. We went on one date and then I called him, um, and then we were talking on the phone and I heard this like in the back,

Archival: and

John: then I was like, what was that ?

Archival: What was that? He

John: was like, okay, he's off the list. He's like,

Archival: that was my pet parrot. And I was just like, click [00:16:30] never again.

Michael: Nice.

John: So anyway.

Michael: Okay. If you go next, so you, that's beautiful. All right. I'm gonna bring up the next one now, number four, if I may.

John: Yes, please.

Michael: Okay. I wrote Journey to the Far Side. Mm. And I was thinking about the far side cartoon. I grew up loving Gary Larson. He's one of my heroes. And one of the things I always loved about Gary Larson was the way he would sort of toggle between anthropomorphizing, where he would give animals human qualities and put [00:17:00] 'em in a human setting, or the other way around, he would take human culture and civilization and map on animalistic characteristics.

Right? Yes. I feel like Steve Irwin is doing sort of a similar thing. I almost called this raised in a zoo because he was actually literally raised in a zoo. Yes. And this is why the man's, you know, social norms are not . What they might be to be raised in zoo means to be brought up in a controlled artificial environment.

Uh, this is what according to the internet, and often I'm referring to a wild animal that has been reared in [00:17:30] captivity, lacking the natural skills and instincts needed to survive in the wild due to not experiencing a typical habitat and social interactions. Mm-hmm . Steve Irwin is a kind of wild animal raised in a zoo that was released onto the world.

Yes. And there's something Gary Lars Sonian about that, because it's not clear if I'm watching a man act like an animal or an animal, act like a man . This is why Gary Larson was so brilliant, but also I, Steve Irwin is, is I think. Anybody who is this enthusiastic a about wildlife is trying [00:18:00] to make the point that our distinction between the animal kingdom and humans is artificial.

The idea that it's very far apart that we are actually on a far side is all in our minds. Mm-hmm . Right? Mm-hmm . And that, I thought about this a lot in a previous life when I was an earth scientist, that human exceptionalism is inarguable, but there's actually way more in common than we realize, uh, in terms of our instincts and in terms of our behavior as organisms.

John: Well, yeah. Yeah, and I think you're kind of [00:18:30] touching on two points here, where he was this sort of wild Tarzan, but I think he also Yeah. Uh, gave us more insight into the sort of . Human side of these, at least the Crocodilians talking about how they're sort of romantic.

Archival: Yeah. . Yeah.

John: Like in their courting of each other and they protect their young and he connected a lot of dots for us.

Michael: A hundred percent. I think. You know, his wife and her, the book, which I think you and I both read, Steve and May like, talks a lot about his sort of sixth sense. Like they could be out driving and he'd be like, [00:19:00] there's gonna be animals over here parked the car. I'm gonna run out there and find them. Like he had this intuition.

That for me is a kind of like, it's nice to be reminded that yes, humans are different from all the other organisms, but not as different as we think. Right. And I think that's his point. Yeah. And I think that's where I'm going with his journey to the far

John: side. And you don't have to take it as far as anthropomorphizing animals, but you can at least see the similarities.

Michael: Exactly. Exactly. Similarities, not differences. All right. Why don't you take number five?

John: Okay. I put fired ups in. [00:19:30]

Michael: Oh, say more. I love this. Okay,

John: so Steve was this notoriously intense person. Yeah. And you know, I mean, there's just shots of him like just holding a, a tiny lizard and it's right in front of his face.

So you look behind the lizard and his eyes are just like almost crossing. They're so intense. Yeah. Like it was like this, I was like, did the drugs just kick in? Yeah. What's happening? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Just from this tiny lizard, he's losing his mind. But he was also really into meditation. It was very specific what he would do.

He looked into a fire. Yeah. At [00:20:00] night. Yeah. Um, and this was called fire gazing for him. And I think there it's also has a semantic tradition across cultures, including Native Americans and the, the Celtic Siberian practices. Oh, you looked into this, you wouldn't Oh yeah. Fire gazing. I'm really curious about fire gazing.

And I was like, is this, you know, where else is this practice? This is good, John. So they would stare into flames to receive visions, communicate with spirits, or enter altered states of consciousness. And Steve did this, one of the more important connections with fire [00:20:30] gazing. And Steve was after he did some fire gazing, he ran This was in the book.

Yeah. Uh, just ran up to Terry afterward and realized that he wanted to have children. Yeah. And he was like, we gotta have children immediately. Yeah. The fire told me, , the fire said we gotta have kids . And I love that. Like I try to meditate. On a daily basis. And to see how other people do it is so fascinating to me.

And to see someone who's so intense, try to take it down a couple notches every once in a while is, is inspiring.

Michael: You know, I'm [00:21:00] really glad you drew attention to this because he doesn't slow down

John: ever. And

Michael: I mean, he talks about like, I'm gonna have a young life. Uh, he talks about like, I'm gonna have a premature death.

He thought he'd die

Archival: at 40.

Michael: Yeah, right. He did not expect to make it past 40. And he is sort of self-aware of his inability to just chill. Except when it comes to the fire. Yeah. Like that is the one moment where he can enter into a zen-like trance.

John: Right. And it's hypnotic to him. Yeah. And so it allowed him to kind of slow down and think [00:21:30] through things rather than just kind of mu moving at this furious pace every day, which was what he was sort of notorious for.

He just never stopped

Michael: Totally moving . Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, he's restless. He's thoroughly restless and bursting out of his skin. That's a really good call. Yeah. 'cause it does sort of stand in contrast to the rest of his, you know, habits and life.

John: Oh yeah. I would never know that he was meditating. Yeah. Yeah.

But it makes sense now that I know.

Michael: Nice when John. All right, so, uh, okay, let's recap number one. You said nature show [00:22:00] disruptor, and I tagged that with right up in there. Number two, I said inner child. And number three, you said parrot fear, par , fear of parrot, fear of parrot, fear of parrot. Number four, I went with journey to the far side.

And number five.

John: Uh, fired up Zen.

Michael: Fired up Zen. Love that list.

John: Yeah. Okay. All right,

Michael: let's take a break. Cat. Category three, one love. In this category, John and I will each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships. [00:22:30] First, we will review the family life data. So there's one marriage to Terry In 1992, Steve was about 29.

It's a real love at first sight kind of story. She happened to be traveling in Australia. She was into Cougar rescue in Oregon, and she had an American friend bring her over and they on a whim, went to this museum. She saw Steve was taken with him, and then a courtship of sort ensued.

Archival: I got so lucky in 1992 when she walked into the zoo.

And I'm doing a crocodile demonstration. I [00:23:00] looked in the crowd, I'd been in the bush for two years, mate, catching crocs. Haven't seen any Sheilas come back, . So, you know, I was hungry and, um, come back and I'm doing a Croc demo and I look into the crowd and I see her and I'm like to feed the crock, you know, she stayed back and started talking to me and that was it.

Head over heels in love. It's so awkward.

Michael: It's awkward. It's a bizarre mating ritual.

John: It was very strange. He brings her back the next day to work at the zoo. Yeah. They connect over and that's a date. Well,

Michael: that's the thing is [00:23:30] that they're

John: clearly kindred spirits. They come together and she's totally all in.

Yeah. She's all into this. She's like, oh, you want me to shovel poop? You're my, you're

Michael: my counterpart. I'm into, that's do that. Forget about

John: coffee. I don't Who needs a latte when you have this duck poop.

Michael: Let's go jump on some crocodiles together, which is what they did during their honeymoon. He doesn't call her for a month.

I know. After that. I know, I know. Well, it was a different time. All right, so Steve died at 44, so they were married about 15 years. They had two children. One daughter, one son, and the whole family carries on the legacy. Today, there is now a [00:24:00] show called Crikey. It's the Irwins. Did you watch any of this? Yeah.

Okay. . It's cute. Yeah. Uh, I mentioned already that he was raised in a zoo. He idolized his mom and dad, and his dad was a kind, real pioneer in terms of cashing crocs. Steve jumped his first crock at age nine, apparently loved his family quite a bit. What did you write down for word or phrase? My word is legacy.

John: Interesting.

Michael: Say more.

John: Okay. So his dad creates this sort of reptile emporium to support his hobby and and conservation of these [00:24:30] animals and then get kind of hands it to Steve.

Archival: Yeah.

John: And Steve kind of just takes the reins and turns it into reptile sanctuary. Now it's. The Australian zoo. It builds, it builds when he starts to have kids.

He sort of shifts his idea of his life's purpose from just conservation on his own to then I think he actually says kind of handing the football over to his kids. And his life goal is that they'll take it. Run with it. Yeah. Just like he did from his parents. And so [00:25:00] it seems like that's the thread or the through line for him,

Michael: it's sort of the whole point in a way it feels like, right?

Yeah. I mean, the whole point of family in his mind is the cause,

John: right? And I think that, yeah, like even when he says, we need to have kids to Terry, it was basically because who are we going to give this away to? You know? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think that was my one word.

Michael: I love it. Okay. I, I got a little bit more poetic here.

John: Okay.

Michael: I ended up going with Adonis and Aphrodite. Oh, Greek myths. Okay. Uh, I had to be [00:25:30] reminded of these. Here's what Wikipedia has to say about the Adonis and Aphrodite myth and Greek mythology. Adonis was the mortal lover of the goddess Aphrodite. He was considered to be the ideal of male beauty in classical antiquity.

The myth goes that Adonis was gored by a wild board during a hunting trip and died in Aphrodite's arms. As she wept his blood, mingled with her tears and became the an enemy flower. Aphrodite declared that Adonia Festival to commemorate his tragic [00:26:00] death celebrated by women. Every year in midsummer during this festival, Greek women would plant gardens of Adonis small pots containing fast growing plants, which they would set on top of their houses in the hot sun.

Hmm. The plants would sprout, but would soon wither and die. Then the women would mourn the death of Adonis, tearing their clothes and beating their breasts in public display of grief. Okay, here's why I went with this one. He's a very handsome man. Oh yes. Right. Yeah. I don't know if I'd go with Donis, but he's a, he's a handsome, he's an attractive [00:26:30] man.

John: He's nineties hot. I would say. He's like a, a Los Angeles . Four at a Tallahassee. 10.

Michael: Okay, that's fine. . So we're somewhere in the middle. So it's not just his attractiveness, it's also the way you use the word in your mock bio mythologized. Mm-hmm . And I think that's where I was going with like, it's actually very similar to your legacy thing that I do think that there is a Steve Irwin mythology, his life and his family life are almost fairytale.

I mean it's, it's, it got [00:27:00] a Greek tragedy element because he dies so young. Yeah. But I do think that there is a kind of immortality because of the legacy. Yeah. Right. And I also think that there's a whole family of plants apparently that will soon wither and die. They'll like grow and be bright and then they go away.

Mm. One thing I learned I guess in the research for Steve Irwin was he was a very involved father. And it's sort of hard to figure out. On one hand he thought he was gonna die young. [00:27:30] His wife had to know this was a possibility. 'cause he is . In proximity to these death defying acts. Everybody's caught off guard.

Everybody's still mourning him, but like were we expecting Steve Irwin to make it to 65? Yeah. Right. And I do think that this life is mythologized somehow. Oh, it's symbolic, right?

John: Oh yeah. Looking at video of the Australian Zoo. It's a shrine. Yes. To him. There's this sort of deification of him. Yeah. Um, because of this tragic death.

And, and I think his family [00:28:00] doesn't disconnect from that at all. Oh, quite the opposite. They never tried to make that. Yeah. Like look at it. Look at the title of their show. Crikey. Yeah. It's the early . You know, like they're, they're like Steve's still here.

Michael: His spirit is very much still with us. Yes. Which is why I wouldn't, I was looking for a Greek myth.

John: Beautifully apt kinda works, right? Yeah, it really is. There's a lot of post mortem buildup of his life and legacy mythologizing, to use your word, mythologizing of it.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I sort of feel like, I don't know, sometimes with [00:28:30] celebrity mythologizing is problematic. Like we put people on pedestals in a way we really shouldn't.

I don't know that I have the same level of discomfort with Steve Irwin mythologizing. Not because he deserves praise, but his, I don't know. Persona and you know, the caricature of him and the memory of him. It's such an outlier. It's so

John: clean. Totally. It's pure. It's pure is a good word. He's, yeah. There's a purity in him.

You don't see in a lot of [00:29:00] celebrity. I

Michael: think it's the inner child thing that I was saying earlier too. Too agree? Yeah.

John: Yeah. There's no, um, Steve Irwin behind the music, like the . There's no, there's no tell all, where's the tell all of like

Archival: Steve Irwin and him, like, you know, Steve

Michael: Irwin, the Coke dealer.

Seriously. There's nothing.

John: There's just nothing out there. No,

Michael: it's very, it is. That's absolutely true. It's very hard to find the dirt, you know? Right. I mean, I think there's controversy, there's the whole thing with, oh, he was holding his infant son and the crocodile enclosure, which he, he got came under [00:29:30] a lot of heat for.

Right. But like this is a man who knows crocodiles and I'm willing to give him the benefit of the doubt and say he knew what he was doing in that moment. Right. I understand why people would be freaked out by that, but everything he does freaks me out.

John: I think he's also, I don't know if this sort of like, I'm gonna grab the snake even though I don't really need to kind of mentality just to show you and put some thrill into this show, if that would really

Fly today,

Michael: the word antagonist comes up [00:30:00] sometimes. Mm-hmm . Like he's antagonizing animals, I guess. You know, his approach was controversial at the time. I mean, I read a, you know, think pieces that PETA put out. Yeah. , which they're gonna do that. But, you know, they made me think. In. Yeah.

John: In the end, closer to the end, I think in 2002 he had the Antarctica trip right.

Where he really got some heat for sliding with penguins, for sliding with penguins and molesting penguins.

Michael: indeed.

John: Yeah. So I think there, it started to kind of catch up to him a little bit. Yeah. In his [00:30:30] lifetime. But it was so new, I think that everybody was still sort of, so we ling

Michael: with their own discomforts around it.

Yeah. Yeah. So I

John: think he does get that, the benefit of timing and I think there's definitely a, a sort of mythmaking of his life. Yeah. Postmortem,

Michael: Adonis and Aphrodite. Mm-hmm . Okay. Let's move on. Category four network and this category. John and I each wrote down our numbers ahead of time. We're gonna talk a little bit about our reasoning and then we're gonna look up the net worth number in real time to see who's closest.

Finally, we will place Steve Irwin on the famous [00:31:00] and gravy net worth leaderboard. Okay. I'm gonna tell you just a little bit of my thinking because I suspect it's very similar to yours. Okay. Every time he was asked about money, he said, goes right back into conservation. Right. ,

John: that's That's what I want.

With a gold plate of dny.

Archival: Yeah, exactly. Every cent that Terry and I earn goes straight back into conservation, whether it be at the zoo or buying up conservation land around the world. There's no if buts, mights or maybes. We both [00:31:30] live and breathe for rescuing and saving wildlife and wildlife habitat.

That is what makes us tick.

Michael: He was like, I wanna make money because I believe in this cause. And every bit of money is going back into this. It is just not clear how much he's keeping for himself. Yeah, right. And how much is this set up through nonprofits versus for-profit companies? And you have to imagine the money's flowing in, then he dies at a young age unexpectedly.

Mm-hmm . Kind of unexpected. I feel [00:32:00] like I have to put unexpectedly in quotes every time I talk about his death. You know, it was weird the way he died by this stingray, but it was unexpected. But I mean, the other thing to say is he is an international star on tv. He basically is the face of the animal planet, and he is doing all kinds of commercials, promos, late night talk shows.

I mean, he is a hot, hot item. He had a movie. It was a successful movie. Yeah. So I just took a stab. Okay. So John Watts wrote down 15 [00:32:30] million. Michael Osborne wrote down. 8 million. Okay. The actual net worth of Steve Irwin, 10 million. So right in between. Right in between. I'm a smidge closer. You are closer.

But you and I kind of both honed in at the right. Number ish. Yeah. And I feel like he's become more valuable posthumously.

John: Oh yeah.

Michael: And it does sound like Terry is a good business woman. Yeah.

John: I mean, I think she

Michael: even got like an award for it or something. Right? Did you see that? Yeah.

John: I think that that also, now, you know, they, the [00:33:00] show, uh, Krey, it's the Erwin started back in the.

2018. Yeah, they're making a lot more money now. Yeah. Both

Michael: the kids are like TV personalities. Yeah. With like different personality. But anyway, we're just focusing on Steve. So 10 million that feels about right Once upon a time. This was a magic number on Famous and Gravy. 'cause this was my goal and I, I've since readjusted my expectations.

I'm probably not gonna get there. But let's play Steve Irwin on our

John: leaderboard

Michael: on the famous and gravy net worth leaderboard. So this puts him in a [00:33:30] nine or 10 way Tie position number 55. He is tied with Roger Ebert, John Prine, Margaret Thatcher, Florence Anderson, Maya Angelou, Louie Anderson. Leonard Cohen, Luke Perry and Bill Russell.

A

John: good group to

Michael: be in. It's a great group to be in. Yes. Isn't it? Yeah. Go. Steve Irwin. I'm happy to have like a little bit of international flavor in that crowd. Yeah. Isn't that beautiful? Really brightens it up. Okay. Wonderful. Well done Steve. 10 million. Thank you for donating it, it to conservation. Let's move on.

[00:34:00] Category Five Little Lebowski Urban Achievers.

Archival: They're the little Lebowski, urban achievers said. Yeah, the achievers, yes, and proud. We are of all of them

Michael: in this category, John and I will each choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, or some other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of this person.

You

John: go first.

Michael: Okay, so I mentioned the South Park impersonation earlier, so instead there are two organisms. Named after Steve Irwin, one in 1997 while on a fishing trip off the coast [00:34:30] of Queensland with his father, Steve discovered a new species of turtle herpetologist. John can named it Irwin's Turtle Elisia.

I Winnie in honor of Steve. And then there was also, and this was after he died, another newly discovered Austrian animal, a species of air breathing, land snail. And they called it crikey, Steve or Winnie . That's the Latin name for it. Crikey. Steve or Winnie, you're lying. You, I'm not lying. Lie was named after

John: them in 2009.

Somebody named that snail in a [00:35:00] sweepstakes. They let a 12-year-old named that

Michael: snail . Crikey. Steve Quinney. Look, there's nothing that makes me happier than scientists, like sort of abuse themselves.

John: Oh, they thought they ate. They thought they ate it up. They did a toast. Yeah. They thought they nailed. Nailed it.

Michael: Crikey, Steve. I Winnie. But it also does show a different side because these are slow organisms. This is a turtle in a snail. Mm. These are synonymous with not moving fast. The exact opposite of Steve Irwin.

John: [00:35:30] Yeah. You know? No, but that's very insightful. But wouldn't you

Michael: like this though? I mean, so people talk about like, you know, sometimes scientists or famous people will be recognized, they'll have stars or galaxies named after.

Yeah. I would so rather have some obscure

John: Yeah, the ugliest thing out there. . Yeah. I want the U nastiest be

Michael: immortalized than some rare species. The John

John: Watts angler fish cousin. I want like just something that lives at the bottom of the ocean. The cold, dark heart.

Michael: Exactly.

John: Yeah.

Michael: [00:36:00] All right. So what did you have for this category?

John: Okay, I just, I don't, this . Absolutely makes me laugh out loud every time I watch it. I love this ESPN. Yes. And I don't even believe in sports, but this is funny. , espn, this is sports center commercial. Yeah. Where he makes a cameo and he's talking to the host of the show trying to listen. John Anderson, I believe John and I don't know these person's.

He's a podcaster. Yeah, I'm sure he's great. And

Michael: it's the Florida Gator.

John: Yeah. And he's pitching him something. The Florida Gator. You know, mascot comes out of the elevator and Steve's just like, oh, [00:36:30] look at

Archival: him. . Isn't he a Butte?

John: Listen Steve, I hear you. I mean, if it's up to me, right?

Archival: We'd have the crocodile only 24 7.

Exactly. Every single time I do my boot laces up, I'm staring death right in the eyes. How many Baseballers are doing that? I'm with you shirt. Crikey. Stand back to have a go at the size list I got mate stand. Woo. Isn't he

John: gorgeous? It just makes me laugh. So hard every time, which, and it's not easy to make me laugh with a commercial, [00:37:00] but that one gets me.

And I just think Steve was in on the joke, you know? Yes. He knew that it was ridiculous. Yes. And he knew like, this is my money maker. I'm, I know. I'm ridiculous and crazy and you know what, I'm gonna lean in. There's

Michael: also something interesting about his relationship with sports entertainment. Well, I mean, why would Steve Irwin be on ES, espn?

There's an athleticism about him. Very athletic. Yeah. Right. And so it's funny 'cause you don't look at a nature show host and think athlete, but it's kind of there, right? [00:37:30] Oh yeah. With him. Yeah. So, which makes him relevant and perfect for that. Us PN commercial.

John: Oh yeah. Sense. Did you watch

Michael: Animal Planet or Crocodile Hunter Much?

Oh God,

John: yeah. Did you? Oh, I was on top of it, yeah. Okay. I, I was, I was a big, like, I had a whole room full of reptiles growing up. Yeah. I was, yeah. I was real weird and I really, yeah. So I had like snakes and, and frogs. I wanted to be a herpetologist. If you asked me when I was a kid, what I would, who, what I wanted to be when I grew up as a herpetologist.

You're

Michael: kidding, John. Yeah. I didn't know any of this. [00:38:00]

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So I loved that show. And I watched Animal Planet, like on a loop we had, we had cable, so that was my childhood. Wow. I was watching Animal Planet. Yeah. Wow. I loved this show. It was really into it. I volunteered at the zoo. Wow. Um, in high school I was going to, you know, go off and do the thing and now look at me.

Michael: Do you still feel a kind of, I don't know, interest or attraction or like, do you still en enjoy the company of reptiles or,

John: absolutely. Yeah. Wow. I love going to like a pet store or the. I'll go to the reptile house at the zoo, I'll [00:38:30] be down. I'm, even though it's kind of sad, I'll still go and yeah, Uhhuh and I, I have a friend who as a herpetologist who, um, you know, likes to, um, show me pictures,

Michael: of snakes and of snakes and lizards and turtle stuff.

Great.

John: You know, I'm still into it, but it's, yeah, it was a, basically like how I learned to read as a kid was like reptile and amphibian books, so No way. Oh, that's so cool, man. Yeah, yeah. But, um, I love that. But I just think like his audience was vast.

Michael: It, it, it, that's the thing. His appeal is sort of [00:39:00] viral in a way.

It's amazing how many people, and I guess some of it is the death defying thing, but it really is his passion and it really is the way he just pops off the screen and his eyes are wide open and he is a kind of cartoonish, but he's also like, he's so endearing. I think it's the childlike quality. I think it's the purity.

John: Yeah.

Michael: That is this, you know, sort of superpower.

John: I think that is a, a magnet. Yeah. You know, for anyone, I mean, even his wife said, uh, what, when they took the very first documentary video, it was the, um, John Staton said, the camera loves Steve. Yeah. And I [00:39:30] think that's absolutely true. And therefore we love Steve.

Michael: It's a little hard to fake that. Okay, let's take another break. I. Okay. Category six words to Live by. In this category, we each choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them. You kick us off.

John: I just really liked this quote and it, uh, sort of piggybacks on what you just said earlier.

Terry says this in her book. I believe we struck a chord among Australians because Steve wasn't a manufactured TV personality. Mm. He actually did . Head out [00:40:00] into the bush to catch crocodiles. He ran a zoo. He wore khakis, among all the people of the world. Australians have a fine sense of the genuine. Steve was the real deal.

Oh, I love that. I absolutely agree with her. I think this guy was really actually like this. Her

Michael: observations of Australian culture I find really interesting. There's that passage in the book where she talks about mates, you know? Yeah. And it's like Australian male friendship. She's like, there's no American comparison for this.

And she's, she's crazy too. [00:40:30] Oh,

John: absolutely. Wild. Yeah. Let, let's be very clear. Yeah. She was doing cougars conservation. She's

Michael: the large cats that attack you need to be saved. Terrifying cats.

John: Yes.

Archival: So,

John: yes. She's

Archival: also wild.

Michael: Uh, I love, that's a great quote. Okay. Uh, you want me to give you one? Yes, please. Alright.

Steve said, I believe that education is all about being excited about something, saying passion and enthusiasm helps push an educational message. There was a time where I was super into geology and if I could corner you for a moment and just talk about [00:41:00] rocks, I would do it until I'd get a reaction out of somebody

And there's nothing more boring in the world than rocks. Michael

Archival: was your worst nightmare at a dinner party. Pretty much.

Michael: But, but I remember saying this to a friend of mine in college when my niece was first getting into like hiking and camping. I was like, it's really cool that she's doing this. And my friend said, yeah, it's really cool to see anybody get into anything.

And it was kind of a funny like toss aside comment, but I'm like, you're absolutely right. I love watching people get into their thing. Yes. And I [00:41:30] may or may not be into your thing, but if you . Are passionate about it and you have a lot of enthusiasm for it, then that does push an educational message. So I do think that what he's getting at here is the kind of emotional component of intellectual curiosity, and those are words to live by.

John: He's really getting at the sort of like anagogical principle of motivation. The what? Principle of like adult learning. Oh. So like , I don't know anything about that. motivation is such a big piece of learning. If you're allowed to find something that you're excited about, rather than being sort of [00:42:00] forced into it, your brain actually becomes more spongy.

So that's why his breadth of work becomes wider and wider. Like he's not just doing reptiles in the end, he's doing whales, he's doing, you know, he just kind of, yeah. Uh, you can see him growing and that's really inspiring. I'm also a little jealous because I'm one of those people who like every, I think I have a new interest every two weeks.

Yeah. You know, .

Michael: But that's okay. I mean, I think that if you are, like, what I really hear in this quote and what you were just talking about is like the importance of being in touch with your [00:42:30] own curiosity. Yeah. And it's amazing how easy it is to lose that. And it's amazing how unbelievably important it is.

This is how I feel about my children. I really don't care what they're into. I just want them to be into things. Right. I just want them to feel curious. Yeah. You know? And. Sometimes identifying, locating and exploring your own curiosity is a lot more challenging than you would think because we get distracted by, I don't know, all these other sort of cultural motivations for why we should be spending our time in different ways.

I, I don't think it's a bad thing. If your [00:43:00] interests are scatterbrained the way you just described them like that, every two weeks you get interested in something else. Yeah. So, I don't know. As long as you stay interested in things, that's great.

John: I think it's really important what he, he's showcasing here is to learn not to have a valve, a shutoff valve.

Yeah. For your curiosity. Yeah. Let it keep growing and showing you what else is, is out there.

Michael: Let's move on. Category seven, man in the mirror. Did this person like his reflection, yes or no? This is not a bad beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence [00:43:30] versus self-judgment. You lead us off here. I have things to say, but I want to hear what you have to say.

I think yes. I think he was proud. He didn't look like an insecure man. No. Okay. So that was the one thing I was thinking about though, is that there are moments of insecurity and it's anytime he's not wearing khakis.

Archival: Is there anything in your wardrobe that's not carkey

I, I've got a pair of jeans. Yeah. And I'm constantly given shirts. I don't wear 'em, basically [00:44:00] I've got more car keys than you poker ticket. How's this say what a coop like this is so Australian ,

Michael: right? It is, it is, uh, at his wedding when he had to wear tuxedo. Yeah. He's thoroughly uncomfortable when he is like being paraded around in Hollywood or when there's like award ceremonies or he got invited to like a Clinton dinner, I think when Clinton was about to leave.

He is like, no, I can't do it. He like, he's uncomfortable in cities. He's uncomfortable everywhere. That's not nature.

John: Yes.

Michael: You know, it's, it's sort of insecurity on some level.

John: Oh yeah. I, I almost [00:44:30] feel like one thing that sort of gave me one, I. Slice of, of negativity .

Michael: Yeah.

John: From this man was sort of surprising, was a quote from, again, the Scientific American interview in 2002, where he says, crocodiles are easy, they try to kill and eat.

You people are harder sometimes they pretend to be your friend first. Yeah. And I was like, oh damn. Okay. Well, but, but

Michael: that's not inaccurate.

John: No, it's not. But I just didn't expect, this came, I think came after a lot of the heat that he got for parading his sun around the crocodiles and the cro [00:45:00] Coum and then the, you know, Antarctica church,

Michael: love that.

They called it a cro. I'm

John: obsessed with that name. We're making t-shirts. Merch is happening. I'm sure there is merch, but yeah, that. Made me think a little bit more about some insecurity he had around people.

Michael: Yes. And that's kind of obvious in a way. Mm-hmm . Right. I mean, I think the whole inner child purity quality that we've been talking about it is, you know, sort of the misdeeds of humans that corrode our innocence and that cause us to form cresty layers around our inner child.[00:45:30]

Right. . Exactly. And, and, and I think he, you know, rebuffed that his whole life was about rebuffing that, and his whole mission was about rebuffing, that as his fame grows, you suit do see that discomfort. You are its ugly head more and more.

John: Yeah. If you have a strong inner child, I don't know if you could see yourself past 40

Michael: Exactly.

Exactly. Yeah. Makes sense. No sense. No, I, I think that's true. Yeah. I mean, I think you do have to make peace with a certain cynicism.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: That's certainly where I'm at in life. Yeah. You know, .

Archival: Okay, .

Michael: Well, no, I, it's true. I have [00:46:00] always been fairly idealistic, and I do think that the older I get, the more you see age, the more you see people dying, the more you see institutions around society deteriorating and falling apart.

I have had to absolutely make some peace with a more cynical side of me. Mm-hmm . You know, and I don't wanna lose touch with that inner child, but I think that that is the dance of a longer life and I can see why somebody like Steve Irwin would've had discomfort with that process.

John: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think like as we age, we are [00:46:30] picking up layers.

As you said of crust . Yeah. And then you think, yeah, he was, had an aversion. It could be nice crust,

Michael: it could be cakey crust, it could be like

John: pie. I think that he had an aversion to that as well. So

Michael: we agree. He liked his reflection. I think he was solid with with that reflection. A yes. And the yes. All right, category eight coffee cocktail or cannabis.

This is where we ask which one would we most wanna do with our dead celebrity. I said, there's no good answer here. One obvious answer would be fosters around the campfire to go back to your zen campfire thing. But [00:47:00] I actually would not want to be with him outdoors where any of his senses are dulled or compromised.

Like I need him to be tuned to what is happening. So cannabis is out . There's way too many opportunities for paranoid reactions if we're outdoors. Obviously this man needs no caffeine, so coffee's not gonna work. So here's where I went. I. Jack and Coke on an airplane because this is, I think his most inevitable but [00:47:30] uncomfortable setting.

He has to take a lot of flights and I heard him in an interview talking about 14 hours. Going to the States is a nightmare. He

Archival: is like, I have to do a lot of plane flights. Yeah. And uh oh, I'm a handful. You can't hang your arm out the window and you can't stop and have a pee and look at the wildlife.

Yeah. I like a good movie. But not five of them in a row, .

Michael: And he, he can't read a book. This is Steve . He's not gonna, he's not gonna lose himself in a novel. [00:48:00] Um, so the interviewer actually asks him, he is like, well, do you have conversations with people? He's like, usually I'm sitting next to John. We don't have anything to talk about.

So it it, he sounds like a man who has to fly a lot and hates it. Um, and I picture him in his khakis in first class, and I like the idea of, you know what, let's get some Jack and Coke. Let's get a little bit tipsy on the airplane with those itty-bitty bottles and the flat coke that the flight attendant is pouring.

And I wanna push on this question. Do you believe intimacy with nature [00:48:30] is actually possible through the TV screen? Mm. His theory of the case is I need to get right up in there and show you what these organisms are like so that you will love them the way I do, so that you will feel the way I do. I think what actually is happening is we are looking at a crazy man and right next to something that might take him out or sting them or bite him or pee on him or whatever it may be.

He is the spectacle, not the organism, and I think he kind of sort of knows that. But [00:49:00] I admire the intent and I definitely think that by having a successful TV show, you can certainly say. I can do a lot in the name of conservation and environmentalism because I'm bringing in money and I can buy more land and I can protect more animals.

Yes. But whether or not you are actually creating an intimate experience between the audience and wildlife, I'm just not sure it's possible through a TV screen. I don't care if you're Steve Irwin or David Attenborough or anybody, I, I feel like if it's being [00:49:30] mediated through a screen, you'll lose the essential qualities.

Full stop. Yeah. I think Jack and Koch on an airplane, I think he would actually like be forced to have that conversation with me, and I'd kinda like to see where it goes. I

John: love that. And I think you've really hit on the, yeah. The question that I have about Steve Irwin and this meaning of like this idea that he was going to make us love, fall in love with

This rattlesnake that he's thoroughly pissed off and is going for his face? You know? And it's like, this still looks terrifying, Steve. I [00:50:00] don't know. Yeah. If this was really what you wanted. You

Michael: look like a 7-year-old playing with a gun. You

John: look terrified right now. Yeah. This isn't making me fall in love with it.

I wanna run. Yeah.

Michael: And I know that that's true. I wanna

John: kill it.

Michael: There are moments where, I mean, have you seen that clip with him in the orangutan?

John: Yes. It's

Michael: very sweet.

John: It's very sweet and

Michael: I, I do see his heart on display, even with the Crocs and even with the apex predators and the animals that we are otherwise revolt and terrified by.

But [00:50:30] I just am not sure it's possible through the vehicle he's trying to . Bring us in on,

John: yeah. A lot of it felt like good for I, not for th where he was like, I'm gonna go and like, mess around with all these animals, but what y'all need to do is leave them alone. Which sort of felt a little like a mixed message there.

It's

Michael: a little contradictory if you, if you click into it too much. Yeah. Right. And perhaps self-serving. I mean, I think it, it offered him a life and a lifestyle that he felt a sense of destiny and a lot of [00:51:00] gratitude around. But whether or not it is actually furthering the mission the way he . Argued it was, I am skeptical.

John: There is a study out there that does look at the correlation of people who engage with Steve Irwin and their likelihood to donate or support conservation, and they did find a positive correlation. Oh, really? In the Journal of Communication Studies. I'll be down. Yeah. Peer reviewed. Okay. So basically you wanna trap him?

I wanna trap him and see

Michael: be, because I don't think get him drunk. I don't wanna be, and the [00:51:30] main reason is because of what I don't want, I don't want to be in an altered state in the bush with him. Right. If I'm gonna be with Steve Irwin, he would make me feel safe. But if he is in any way compromised, I'd be terrified.

I can't handle myself. I need him to protect

John: me. Exactly. Yeah. That's a perfect lead into, I said the same thing, but I did say, I think, I know we probably want to take him down a notch. We need meow Steve. We wanna chill him out a bit and maybe get a little bit more depth about his ethos. Yeah. But I chose coffee Interesting.

In the bush. Wow. So . [00:52:00] Okay. I don't, I don't wanna slow him down. I want the. Full Irwin experience. Yeah, because I'm Irwin Pilled, so I think our destination is the Buran River.

Michael: Okay.

John: And on the coast it's about 800 miles north of Brisbane, where they first filmed that Crocodile River. Yeah. Yeah. And this is where, uh, I think I want to do.

Coffee by the fire, do fire gazing We center. Yeah. And then I wanna take that coffee to go. 'cause this is a physical man, as you said. Like I think he had, if we're looking at the spectrum of [00:52:30] multiple intelligences, he had a physical intelligence, ah, he needed to be moving and active in order for his brain to engage and give you, I think, the entirety of his sentient.

Michael: I think that's a really good observation. Yeah.

John: So I think like that was part of his mo and I just wanna experience him in the environment where he was at his best. Yeah. You know, at his, at his peak. So I wanna take that coffee to go and I wanna go on the boat and I wanna look for the crocodiles. Now I'm gonna stay on the boat.

Sure. He can do the thing. You do. You, I'm looking, I'm watching tackle away. I'm asking [00:53:00] questions. Sack that back on a megaphone. I'm, we have a walkie talk. Yeah. , we're good, right? I, but I'm at a safe distance. Tell you what,

Michael: drop me off here. .

John: Steve. I got you on FaceTime. Yeah. Um, just keep going with that snake.

Yeah. Uh, but I think that's his superpower was. Action combined with narration.

Michael: I love that. What I like about your choice compared with my Jack and Koch fantasy on a in first class, on an airplane crossing the Pacific, is that you are moving closer to his [00:53:30] intuition wavelength. That would be exciting to observe firsthand.

Yeah. The vibes of nature and the vibes of the animal kingdom. 'cause he's all about vibrations.

John: Yeah. Oh yeah. You know,

Michael: and that would be exciting to experience firsthand. Yeah. Yeah. That's a good one, John. Okay. I think we have arrived the Vander Beak final category named after James Vander Beak, who famously said in varsity blues, I don't want your life.

In that varsity blue scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kind of life based on a single [00:54:00] characteristic. So here John and I will form a rebuttal to anyone skeptical of how Steve Irwin lived. James Vander Bak has a point when he says, I don't want your life. Steve Irwin, first of all, this is, I think, the youngest death we've done on Famous Eng Gravy.

There's also a, like, everybody thinks you're crazy. That's not an easy thing to, he seems to relish that and he is very comfortable with being described as an adrenaline junkie. He's like, yep, absolutely. And that is my drugs. I can't stop,

Archival: mate. I'm just, I'm on fire. I wake up in the morning and I'm on fire.

I just can't [00:54:30] do enough. It drives me crazy that I've gotta go to sleep. You know, God, I'd film something at night and you don't drink coffee. No. You don't drink alcohol. You don't smoke. No. No. No, we're just on a, yeah, totally. Well, I'm natural high. No, I do adrenaline. Big adrenaline addict. Oh, big time.

Michael: So those are pretty strong reasons to not want this life.

And maybe there's more, maybe the discomfort with crowds and with people and with humanity. But I actually think with those things acknowledged there are [00:55:00] some very compelling reasons to want this life. Where

John: would you

Michael: begin?

John: He found a soulmate. Let's go with that as number one. That's a big one. I think he had a soulmate.

Yeah.

Michael: Those

John: two were

Michael: magnetically connected. Totally cosmic. I, I'm sure there were moments of contention and strife like in any marriage, but my God, it looks like two people who, how did you find each other?

John: Yeah.

Michael: I'd go number two. I would say the inner child thing. I mean, I do think that there is a kind of risk in adhering to the [00:55:30] innocence and naivete that comes with childish mind, but I don't know.

I mean, the older I get, the more important I think it is to be in touch with your inner child. And it's a corny, difficult thing to talk about sometimes, but I find a lot of importance in the way that Steve Irwin embodied this overgrown kid persona.

John: Yeah. I would say that that is true. But I think also he was able to have that because he was raised in a zoo.

Yes. And he had, I think he was a bit of a loner. [00:56:00] I don't think he was lonely, but I think he was solitary. Yeah. You know, he went out in the bush a lot by himself. And I think that that this in the days before

Michael: the crocodile hunter content. Yeah.

John: But

Michael: I don't see it as retreating from relationships. No. I do feel like the people who he loves and who loved him, nobody is unclear about any of that.

You know, including his kids like it. I think that love was communicated in his interpersonal life with his family and friends. Yeah. And [00:56:30] I guess on the loneliness question, I'm with you. I couldn't do that. Yeah. I need more people and so I'm not built like Steve Irwin at the same time. I think that. As you said, I don't think he's lonely.

John: No, but I think you're getting in Another why I'd want it his life is I think he, he had this astounding loyalty to almost everyone and everything that he had sort of, uh, brought into his world. No matter what. It was unflinching. Loyalty to family, friends, uh, you know, he had the same camera crew. . Yeah.

[00:57:00] Like the, you know, it just was the same home. The same, the same home, yeah. His family, his parents. It was just unshakeable loyalty that I think is really, really impressive. I

Michael: wholeheartedly agree with that. Well, is there anything else we adopt to the list? I mean, the legacy may be, I don't know how important that is.

I had a friend send me a podcast the other day about a book called Die With Zero. Yeah. Have you heard of this book? Yeah.

John: Yeah. There's a big anti legacy movement. Right. And I, and I'm, I'm here for that.

Michael: I guess I am too. I mean, I do think that you should . [00:57:30] Enjoy the contributions you make before you die, but I think he did that.

Whether or not you agree with the philosophy of how to go about this strategy towards conservation, he brought in a lot of money. He expanded the zoo and he set it up so that his wife and his children could carry on the tradition.

John: Yeah, I do think that what it seemed to motivate him, at least toward the end, was this

I feel like legacy can be dangerous, and maybe this is what that book is pointing to is that, you know, if you're sort of like running on your fear [00:58:00] of not having a legacy, it's exhausting, it impedes your ability to make really good connections. It, it makes a, a, a worse life. So

Michael: it's fear driven.

John: Yeah, it's fear driven.

And there was a piece of him that felt a little bit like maybe that was the fear, that there wasn't going to be a legacy after he left. Yeah. And that it was all about, you know, I'm making, I'm gonna make sure my kids take this legacy . Yeah. There's that, there's a, there's a don't want it of it, but it, it, it, it worked out.

But I think yeah, there's definitely a danger to living for legacy. Yeah.

Michael: I right [00:58:30] it, it needs to be on the list, but not the whole point. Mm-hmm . And, and, and maybe that's what I mean when I make the case for a Steve Irwin legacy is why James Vander beak should want this life is that it's the right amount of emphasis on legacy, perhaps.

All right. Should we summarize then. Yes. Okay. So number one, you said soulmate number two, I said inner child. Number three, you said loyalty, uh, and number four, the right amount of legacy. So with that, James VanDerBeek, I'm Steve Irwin, and you want my life.[00:59:00]

John: Speed round plugs for past shows, and you may not see a connection at all, but I saw Moonwalker Neil Armstrong. Oh, talk about a legacy. They're not the same, but, but outlier. Looking at the famous eng Gravy cannon, yeah, maybe. Yeah. I would say this is' similar. I love that, John. I don't think

Michael: that's a great one.

So that was episode 17, modest Moonwalker. Neil Armstrong. You know, this is a weird one, but I'm gonna go Betty White. Betty White [00:59:30] actually wanted to be a park ranger and she got to be an honorary park ranger. There is a little bit of that nature connectivity hovering over both Steve Irwin and Betty White.

So that was episode 67, golden Rose, Betty White. Great.

John: Call

Michael: out. Okay, here's a little preview for the next episode of Famous Eng Gravy. After her late 1960s breakthroughs and a string of pop hits in the early 1970s, the disco era sidelined her. Nope. [01:00:00] Need more famous Eng Gravy Listeners, we'd love hearing from you.

If you wanna reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousenggravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. Famous Eng Gravy is created and co-hosted by Ahmed Kippur and me, Michael Osborne.

This episode was produced by Ali Ola. Thanks to John Watts and original music by Kevin Strang. Thank you and see you next [01:00:30] time.