024 Dazzling Dribbler Transcript (Fred “Curly” Neal)

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Amit: This is famous and gravy, a podcast about quality of life. As we see it, one dead celebrity at a.

Michael: This person died in 2020 age 77. He was born in Greensboro and played college basketball at Johnson, C Smith university in Charlotte, where he averaged 23 points per game.

Friend: Lou Gosset Jr. boy, what a great guess.

Michael: No, not Louis Gosset Jr. of Iron Eagle fame. In 2008, his number 22 jersey was retired in a ceremony at Madison square garden, an honor, bestowed upon only four other players in team's history.

Friend: You know, I'm just drawn to blank. I, you think I would know the Nicks a little bit better than this. Everybody who I think is so live Walt Frazier, not Walt Frazier.

Michael: All right. He began shaving his head at age 12. Long before he got his nickname.

Friend: He got his nickname for a bald head. um, number 22. There's no, there's no egghead basketball players. Is there there's no, um, it's such a bald. This is cur much fun is not curly from the Harlem Globetrotters

first and

Michael: last name please.

Friend: Curly Neal.

Michael: Ah, . Today's dead. Celebrity is Curly Neal well, I can't believe you got that nicely done, sir.

Archival: 1963 to 1980 fives. 6,000 games. Yes. 97 countries. As you look back, you just go, whoa, what a ride? Nice ride. nice. Ride is fun. Enjoyment, happiness. You know, anytime we can take a couple hours out and entertain fans throughout the world. That's what the globe out is all about. We bring harmony and joy and love what you like being an icon. I've been blessed. So I just try to give it back to the young guys of the generation here for the globe TRS and the, and the fans all over the world.

Michael: Welcome to famous and great. I'm Michael Osborne,

Amit: and I am Amit Kapoor.

Michael: And on this show, we go through a series of categories about multiple aspects of a famous person's life. We want to figure out the things in life that we would actually desire and ultimately answer a big question. Would I want that life today?

Fred Curly, Neil died 2020 age, 77 category one grading the first line of their obituary. Fred curly Neal whose dribbling wizardry made him one of the most well known members of the beloved Harlem globe Trotters traveling basketball team died on Thursday at his home near Houston. He was 77.

Amit: I liked wizardry.

Michael: Wizardry is great.

Amit: That's pretty nice when applied to a sport. Yeah.

It has a connotation of magic. Yes. You know, dazzling, like how is it possible? Almost otherworldly. What else do you think about this? I like beloved love beloved. It is a beloved team. Doesn't say a whole lot more points to his dribbling wizardry, right?

Not his basketball wizardry,

but dribbling seems to be the thing that everyone kind of remembers him for on the globetroters and beyond.

How do you feel about them describing the whole team as beloved rather than a beloved member of a beloved team? You

know? Yeah. I did pick up on that. I guess I would rather if, if this obituary is about him, yeah.

I would rather, they just call him beloved rather than saying he's a member of a beloved

Michael: team. I'm not sure. I agree with that. This may get into something we talk about later, but I think it is the whole team that I love. There's these charismatic characters on the Harlem globetroters but individually.

None of them is, you know, such a standout, they're all kind of, of equal stature. So I kind of like that. They're saying the beloved team. Yeah. I kind

Amit: of disagree with that. I think. Mm. Because I think he in particular is at a higher level of being beloved than the team overall. Like other Globetrotters could have died within this period, but there is a reason we did him because he was one of the most beloved yeah.

As was me LA, but we just chose curly. All right. So what's your score? Seven. Two three pointers and a free throw

Michael: I think I'm going nine, nine, I think so. I don't know that this is missing anything. It's got the nickname in quotes, which I really like wizardry is a great word. There's not that much more to know.

And I do feel like. The more we talk about it, the more, I'm happy with the word beloved describing the team, because I think what it does is it's got a nostalgia feel. It's got like a throwback, like once upon a time. I mean, I know the globe TRS are still around, but you know, they, they kind of peaked around the time that curly Neil peaked.

I mean, so that's why I'm sort of okay with the brevity of it. I'm glad it made it to the New York times to begin with, you know, oh, there's no question. Oh, I think there is, this is arguably the least famous, famous person we've. On famous and gravy. I

Amit: don't even think it's arguable. I think it is the least famous person we have done in famous and gravy,

Michael: and yet famous enough to have a New York times obituary that was not obvious to me.

And therefore I'm not holding the New York times obituary to a higher standard. I don't need a whole lot of parentheticals and clauses and. You know, I don't need them to throw their full arsenal of the, the dictionary at this obituary to get it right. This one's right to me. Yes. So there's an accuracy and a sort of how challenging it was.

So I'm giving it a nine. This is

Amit: true. And I wanna say something to our listeners. All right. So I'm gonna go ahead and get and tell who I think our other two least famous, um, subjects were. Mm. And to me that's probably mean gene Oland. Mm-hmm and John Prine. Uh, I've heard from a lot of listeners that.

Those two are some of their favorite episodes. Yeah, that's a good point. So, um, talking about quality of life of somebody that sits on that very low niche category of fame is an interesting thing to explore. Well, here's

Michael: the other thing I fucking love the Globetrotters, right? You don't have to see them that much to be kind of.

Like I said, dazzled, I love

Amit: them a lot more learning about the history in the lead up to this episode, I had no

idea.

Michael: Totally. It's a little pocket of American culture, like worth examining and worth knowing more about, well, let's get into it then. Okay. Next category category two, five things I love about you here.

Almond and I work together to come up with five reasons why we should be talking about this person, why they might have some things that are beloved. Yes.

Amit: Do you five, five beloved things about you? Is that

Michael: we're renaming the category so five, I think that's a good idea. Five beloved things. Okay.

Amit: Do you care to start or do you want me to go?

Yeah, one year to go. You go first. Okay. Infectious smile. That's. What I add is number

Michael: one, did you the words I didn't use the word infectious. I just wrote great smile.

Amit: That word infectious. Was used over and over again to describe it. And it's so true when you watched the tape and

Michael: throughout his life, like the younger curly knee, the older curly knee, like this man makes you want to smile and, and, and it smiles easily.

And it's

Amit: great. That's what they say. He was the type of guy that you enter a room with him and you just want to smile. You feel like he wants to thank you for being there. Yeah, I totally agree. I mean, that may just be one of the best things to have to walk through life with is an infectious smile. Just shearly being present.

Other people want to smile. Yeah. I mean, you are a drug at that point, right?

Michael: yeah, it's true. It's true. No, I mean, there, there's a, it's not just life of the party. It's also like exuding a kind of positive energy that, you know, lifts everybody up because I do think that life is. Funnier and that you are more prone to smile if you're looking for it.

And if you are, you know, have the right attitude about the moment or about the day or whatever. So being around a personality like that, that the word infectious, I really like the use of the word infectious

Amit: humor. Uh, what's your take on infectious smiles, nature,

Michael: or nurture this actually bleeds into my second thing.

I love about him. Can I go right to it? Yep. Okay. Thing. Number two, this quote. Hi, that's in his obituary. I didn't know anything about being funny. I it's it's related to the great smile he learned to be. Funny. He learned like, I mean, he set out in life as a basketball player. He was great in high school. He was great in college.

Thought about playing in the NBA.

Amit: Oh, I mean, he was drafted by four NBA teams and chose to go to the Globetrotters

Michael: instead. Correct. For reasons that I gotta say were a little bit confusing to me. I didn't quite understand cuz it's a, it was a, it was a financial consideration that led him to the Globetrotters, I think anyway, like that he was great at basketball and then had this.

I gotta be funny while I'm doing basketball too. And that he learned that and I think it came very easily to him. I think it's related to the smile, but I like the idea that, you know, there's this sort of add on talent to something you're already good at. So you have these two qualities, like

Amit: he can say I had to learn to be funny, but it was just there waiting to boil up.

Right? Like it was, it was old faithful. Before the explosion,

Michael: but I feel like we should probably talk a little bit more about Harlem globe, trot or humor. What is it besides the dazzling basketball wizardry that makes a Harlem globe Trotter's game funny, the unexpected.

Amit: Okay, totally. Have you been to a Globetrotters

Michael: game?

Not since I was probably eight and

Amit: I think that's probably true for a lot of people listening to this show. Yeah. It's not just a basketball game with a bunch of tricks. It's a lot of audience interaction. It's pausing the game. Because somebody has to go to the bathroom. Right. You know, it's running up to the third row in the Bleacher seats and asking someone for a glass of water.

Yeah. In the middle of the game, it's doing these really bizarre, unexpected

Michael: things breaking the fourth wall. But I mean, I guess this continuously, I guess this is my point about what I love is that there is like humor and sport. That is so unique. Like I don't, I can't think of anywhere else where that exists.

The Harlem Globetrotter somehow, like got both athletic, you know, excellence combined with like timing and comedy. Even if the humor is a little silly, it works. Yeah. You know, my memory of the show and watching these old clips, like it's a

Amit: blast. You're right. I don't think it exists with athletic excellence.

Right. It exists in certain like parroting forms of sport. Uh, wrestling is funny

Michael: and I mean, professional wrestling actually is a good thing to point to in terms of like overall performance that we're putting together. Yeah, I, I, I, I think that's a good nearest neighbor. Good comparison. Let's do number three.

Amit: Number three. He was a proud second Fiddler throughout his entire career, which I believe was 1963 to 1985. Correct. On the Globetrotters. He was never. The biggest star on the team because he had to accompany either meadow, LA lemon or Marcus Gaines. Yes. Who were just bigger stars. Yeah. But he played the number two seat proudly with grace.

and never seemed to really buy for that number one spotlight street. Yeah. But he was always the Scotty PIP into Michael Jordan.

Michael: Is that right? Yeah. Okay. Tell me more about why that's a thing you

Amit: love. It is speaks to being satisfied. It speaks to being content. It speaks to being. Grateful and disciplined and not greedy.

It's being happy with where you reached, because I think reaching Heights success, once you get a little bit of it, it's an addiction.

Michael: I think I agree with that too. There's a humility. Yeah. They say

Amit: it's about the Olympics that in measuring happiness, amongst metal winners, the silvers are always the least happy.

Yeah. Because sometimes they were this close. Yeah. But the bronze is like, I got to be on the

Michael: pedestal. Yeah. I made to the pedestals as good as I need to do the goal. The silver feels like I just missed out on the. Yeah, but the bronze is

Amit: happy to be there, but if you can just be happy with counting your lucky stars that you got a silver.

Yeah. That's a pretty great thing.

Michael: Yeah. Okay. I like it. Shall I take number four please? Okay. We kind of talked about this earlier, but I like this level of fame. Like this isn't too famous. Right. I wonder how often. , he was really recognized on the street when he is not wearing, you know, the Harlem globe troters jumpsuit or whatever.

But if he is recognized on the street, like I would think that those fan interactions are mostly great. It's mostly gonna be kids and families that like you, this is a level of fame and notoriety that I think could be enjoyed for the entire life. Right. And I think it seems easy to. Maintain the boundaries yet.

Still be happy with the stature you've reached.

Amit: It's not Michael Jordan fame. Right. But it sounds pretty

Michael: great sports fans can be fanatic on both sides. They love or hate you, right. With the Harlem blow Trotters. Like. Everybody's rooting for 'em for the most part, it's not like, you know, the Cowboys or the Yankees where they just sort of invite a level of FET and fanaticism that is both love and hate you.

And I have often talked about how fame is more or less, not desirable, but there's still something, a little desirable about it. Maybe it's validation, maybe it's well, meaning this is a nice platform to arrive at and not go too much higher, but be high.

Amit: It's also like, you don't need to think of just Tom cruise and Beyonce.

There are all sorts of categories and tears yeah. Of fame. And if what somebody is seeking and what they need or desire is rec. Condition and validation, there are tier and grads to achieve it. Yeah. And I think that's a very important thing to talk

Michael: about and who knows, I mean, who knows if it was actually burdensome for curly ne, but it doesn't look burdensome the way other forms of fame can

Amit: you'll I'll say something about this level of fame too.

It's not just about the recognition, but. The opportunities that are open to you. This man played in 97 countries. Yeah. In front of three popes and two presidents and

Michael: Kings and Queens, the globe Trotters were literally trotting. The.

Amit: Yeah. Uh, exactly. And how many people's dream would it be? Just alone to go to 97 countries?

How many people's dream would it be to go to 25 countries or 50 countries? Yeah. Yeah. That's a good point. 97 countries that he got with this category of fame. Yeah. It's pretty interesting. It's pretty

Michael: good. It's pretty good. You gotta kinda like, like that. That'd be a nice ticket, you know? Absolutely.

That'd be a nice way to do it. Absolutely. All right. Uh, you

Amit: wanna take number five? Yeah, I'll take it. So there was a Globetrotter in let's call it around 2010 named TA Fisher. Okay. So curl ne retired from playing in 85. Yeah. But he was still loosely around the organization in official and unofficial positions.

Yes. So Tay said that like in his first workouts and all with the Globetrotters that curl ne saw that this kid was a good dribbler and he took him aside and said, I'm gonna teach you everything. I know. So while the team and staff would take lunch breaks, curl ne would stay back. and teach this kid like the art of his personal Carline dribbling.

Oh, wow. And this was 2010, 2011. The guy hadn't been even active on the court say 25 7 at that point something years. Yeah. Yes. So the thing I love, I guess I'm saying is generosity with his time. Yeah. And this example with this. That's good.

Michael: Yeah. You know, I really like that term generosity with this time. I have really made it a personal mission to never say I'm just so busy.

I never wanna say that to

Amit: people. My parents used to say, you know, the most valuable thing you can give somebody is your time. Yeah. And he did it generosity

Michael: with time. I love that. Okay. So let's recap then. Number one, we said infectious

Amit: smile. Wait, which we both

Michael: agreed on was our number one. Yeah.

Infectious smile. Number two. Learned how to be funny. Number three was proud. Second seat. Proud. Second seat. Number four. I had level of fame and I think globe trotting ticket. Kind of goes along with that. And number five, generous with time. Yes. That's a good list. All right. Shall we go on? Yes. Category three, Malkovich Malkovich, Malkovich, Malkovich Malkovich.

This category is named after the movie being John Malcovich and which a person can take a little portal into John Mavis head and they can have a front row seat to John Malov village's experiences. The point is to imagine a memory or an experience that might have been interesting. What do you got here?

Amit: I definitely tossed and turned. Did I, too?

Michael: I really tossed and turned. I was trying to find something good and I got something, but let you go.

Amit: Yeah. The one I landed on was the story that sweet Lou Dunbar told in a commemorative video about curly Neil. So sweet Lou Dunbar is one of those other, you know, five or six, very beloved.

Globetrotters. Yeah. Uh, and he said in his first season with the team, he was with curly and they were playing, uh, matches in Arizona in that, in one of the first games, curly Neil sunk three in a row from mid court. Yeah. Do you know how impossible. That is yeah. Three in a row is it's almost like making a hole in one, on two consecutive holes in golf.

I think just the sensation of a triple miracle within a couple of minutes is something that I would like to be behind the eyes of. Do you think

Michael: it feels divine?

Amit: That's kind of the word I was looking for. Yeah. Of like maybe there is a God. Yeah. Um, if he had, and he wants me to train these threes. Yes. Or he's putting it in there, you know, he's, he's changing the trajectory of the ball because the probability is so freaking low.

Michael: This is not a fair comparison, but I played pool on acid once in high school. And was making everything I was making these impossible shots. Yes. And I definitely felt the touch of God in my pool. Stick that day. Yes . There is something about hand-eye coordination when you are locked in, that does feel like you can almost feel the molecules in the air that are leading to the small bits of friction that you have to account for, you know, as the ball leaves your hand, or as, you know, you swing the racket or whatever it.

Yeah. I don't think curly needle needed acid to drain those threes, but I like

Amit: that Malcolm of it, I don't think he was, I think he was a natural talent. I think he was a like beyond natural talent. Yeah. I think he had the control of the ball. Like we said, Diego, me, Donna did. Yeah. Yeah. That it was just, uh, a tool that he had absolute mastery of.

That's

Michael: not a bad segue into my. Markovich moment because I actually wanna talk about this one. Okay. All right. So he played 1963 to 1985, which we should just pause and say, 22 years as a professional athlete. It's pretty incredible. So he retires in 1985 and in 1986 is the first slam dunk contest that I remember as a kid.

This is the one with Dominique Wilkins and Dominique's team. Spud Webb mm-hmm who's five, seven, another 50 for Spud Webb. Let's see what happens. That's the Chan the crowd chance Spud. Oh, how people love the underdo 49,

our new slam thumb champion with an incredible upset stud web didn't pick Dominique. I didn't think this guy had a chance shows you how much we know what. Well, that was thrilling. That's an NBA thing, right? The slam dunk contest. This doesn't involve the Harlem Globetrotters. Yeah. So this is one year after curly Neil retires and the NBA has really grown in terms of prominence in terms of popularity.

So the mid eighties are, you know, that's the turning point for the NBA. And at this point, I think this is past the Harlem Globetrotters peak. Now. The reason, this is a Malkovich moment for me is I'm imagining curly. Neil saw the slam dunk contest and saw five, seven Spud Webb slamming it in and putting on a show and eventually winning that contest, that contest doesn't have anything to do with the competition in the sport.

That is pure show. And I, I wonder if in his mind he's thinking that the merger of competition and sort of dazzling athleticism, you know, wizardry has all now fully been brought into the NBA in, in a way that might lead for the Globetrotters. To be less and less relevant as time goes

Amit: on. And so do you suspect, that's a moment of pride where he's seeing that what they've created being brought into the league or a moment of kind of sadness and remorse that he's seen the beginning of the fading of the relevance of what the Globetrotter is created?

Michael: Yeah. I don't know. That's why it's my Milkovich moment. It's cuz I have curiosity on. Like, I actually would like to know what's going on in his mind, assuming he's watching this. Right. Because Spud Webb. Yeah, he definitely is. He must have been right. Spud Webb, dunking. The ball is more of a kind of globe Trotters thing than it is a NBA thing in a way.

Oh yeah. You know what I mean? So I just wonder, so that's my Malkovich moment.

Amit: I think that's really good. And that's really good. Just part of the arc of the whole Globetrotters. You know, the globe products were not always this comedy act. Yeah. This comedy trick game, they were a serious basketball team.

Yeah. And

Michael: they were, they beat the Lakers in, what is it? 48 and 49, correct. The Royal championship Lakers.

Amit: Exactly. They preceded the NBA and they were the most professional basketball. Available also the only place that, that African Americans could play until the NBA was

Michael: integrated. Exactly. I think that that that's exactly where I was going is that there's also a pretty good argument that the globe Trotters ushered in integration to the NBA, which doesn't really happen until 50 51, the first African American.

Signed in the NBA was picked up from the globe charters, I believe the

Amit: first two were.

Michael: Yeah. And, and I mean, you know what to make of the, globetroters what to make of this act overall. Like there is this veneer of competition, much, like there is in professional wrestling, but that's not what we're there for the

Amit: owner, I believe in around the late fifties, early sixties is when they decided to make it more of a comedy act.

And that's because the NBA was integrated. And so the Globetrotters as a competitive team was just less interesting cuz you couldn't really have, uh, different competitive national leagues.

Michael: Yeah. Hey, you really did your homework on this one. Thank you, Michael. . Well, I couldn't find the curly Neo biography and boy, I look, I don't think there was on, I don't think there's even like a profile of them.

In fact, that's not a bad segue into the next category. Category four love and marriage. How many marriages also, how many kids? And is there anything public about these relationships? Well, here's what I found. Almost nothing like there's a woman named Linda where Wikipedia describes her as his fiance.

Other places I saw them as married or she was described as his wife. There's no information I could find anywhere on when they got married. Did you find anything?

Amit: Yes. I found it. I had to do some like serious. Oh my God. I could not find this anywhere. Where did was near microfish digging.

Michael: Okay. Let me finish finding what is easily knowable.

Anyway. Yes. Um, two daughters, I had one source that, uh, showed them as being adopted daughters. Maybe, maybe not and six grandkids. Even the New York times O bit said information on his survivors. Was not immediately available. So what the hell did you find? I found that he

Amit: was married in 1975. To a woman named rose, but I did look around and there was no public information on her.

They didn't stay married. No, it seems like a year or two. And I think maybe some of the children came from that, but it's really, really hard to find without having the direct source.

Michael: I was surprised at how hard this was to learn more. Doesn't

Amit: this go back to your number four of like this level of.

Michael: Yes, it does in that, like he's only so famous and he's also, his fame was decades, you know, the peak of his fame was decades before the internet.

Yeah. I, I, I have nothing to say,

Amit: but there was a marriage. It does seem that was very short lived. So we can at least talk about this. 22 years on a team where you play 6,000 games. Yeah. Okay. That is almost, we can do the exact math, but that's, if we're just gonna round it's around 300 games a year, a year.

Right. So in the NBA, which sounds pretty arduous right in the NFL. How many games a year do they play? 17

Michael: in the regular season. Okay.

Amit: So 17 the NBA. Do you know that number? Is it 90? It's roughly 90. I think it was 88 at one point. Okay. So 90 games a year, times, 22 years. Show me your PhD. Michael Jesus. oh, give me a roughly, come on.

I was gonna say 2000. It's not good. No, that's good enough. Yeah. That's good enough. Yeah. Okay. He played 6,000 games in that time. Yeah. Trotting the globe. I don't see how there's any room. Yeah. For a love life. I don't see how these guys had that opportunity. Uh, like you

Michael: talked about committed relationship.

Yeah. You

Amit: talked about it with, you know, with, um, Kenny

Michael: Rogers. Yeah. No, no. I mean, look, this has come up a lot on. Famous and gravy, is it possible to be a touring act? And, and, you know, actually it was after the Kenny Rogers episode, I started thinking about how many famous people are on tour all the time, or if they're not on tour traveling all the time.

I mean, even, you know, well, todo actors, right? I mean, they're, they are on location and away from home. A lot. It's one of many reasons that fame doesn't look that attractive to me, traveling to 90 countries does sound fun. And if you're friendly with the guys on the team, then maybe you're having a good time, but there is no room for family life.

Doesn't seem. Yeah, that's exactly my point.

Amit: Yeah. I wanna talk about the trade off of this specific career versus committed

Michael: love. Okay. So let's do a little bit of the math here. I'll throw the fucking PhD in my face.

Amit: I like how under the breath. That was,

Michael: how old was he when he retired?

Amit: Um, 1985 born in 1942, retired in 85.

So 43 or 44.

Michael: Okay. When should one settle down?

Amit: Uh, clearly not at 44. Is that too late? You are sitting across from a 44 year old quote,

Michael: goddamn, right. UN unquote unsettled person goddamn. Right. Uh, and do you think it's. Too late to settle down.

Amit: I have no choice, but to believe that it is not too late to settle down.

All

Michael: right. I

Amit: agree with that. But what you're saying, maybe pretty good spend those 23 years of your life. If you're an

Michael: athlete, I don't know that that's such a bad calculus. You know, I'm not saying like all the athletes should wait until retirement before they do something else, but it's, it's such a bizarre.

Life, you know, to have your profession peak, totally correlated with your physical peak, obviously your brain and your intelligence factor in a little bit into it, but mostly it's about what the body can handle. Yes. So I don't know that it's such a problem to say I'm going to be trotting the globe for the duration of this career.

I don't know if it can be that calculated.

Amit: yeah, cuz what you're saying is it's just not you there's a natural expiration date.

Michael: Yeah. What I'm just saying is that there's a special consideration perhaps for athletes.

Amit: Yeah. So I don't know. I was asked this question the other day in an icebreaker for this group, you know, what would you do with money was no object.

I really always struggle with this answer because what the answer I want to give is live in perpetual motion. Go somewhere for a month, go somewhere for six months, go somewhere for a year and just always live in motion and have my 15 cases that Jaja had that I would take with me. But the struggle is without like the constant return to people to friendships.

I don't think I would want that. And I'm not sure where the balance is. I

Michael: think the whole trick of life is in some sense to have a rock you're standing on and be part of a river home for one of a better term. I know we're on way off on a tangent here, but I actually wanna bring up something totally different.

Okay. And I'm scared to go into this territory, but I feel like it's important to do so I'm thinking about what options were available to a black man. In 1963, as you're beginning your career, like we're talking about some of these trade offs, but I feel like the, you know, we're still in the civil rights movement when he becomes a Harlem globe Trotter.

And should that be factored in to how we look at curly NE's life? Right. And, and if you say 6,000. Games over the course of 22 years, but it's also these 22 years. There's even stories in the Globetrotter lore about, you know, they'd play in north Florida and then they wouldn't get served, go into a restaurant.

And it's whites only, or they couldn't

Amit: say in a hotel room, but like a performing cat, right? Globetrotter,

Michael: pioneers,

Amit: like Bernie price. Remember facing racism every single day.

Michael: The kids used to come up, follow us everywhere. We went rubbing us again, see if it rub off, you know, and we didn't pay no attention, but when they said we couldn't eat, we couldn't sleep.

And then we had problem.

Amit: Once

Michael: when the team played in a

Amit: Nebraska town that had no so called colored

Michael: hotel, the players had to sleep in the county jail one year. We were, uh, playing in the deep south and, uh, you know, we went, uh, downtown to the hotel to try to get rooms and they turned this down. So we went, uh, back across the track, found us a little dinky motel and checked in and stayed there.

But somewhere, someone had taught a chimpanzee how to. and that chimpanzee happened to be traveling all around the United States, putting on bowling exhibit. Now this chimpanzee had the biggest suite and the biggest hotel downtown and all the bananas he could eat. And that's when it really got home to me.

Holy here we are human beings and here's are chimpanzee getting treated better than we are, right. Or whatever heartaches come with being on the road and being with the same 19 members and the same coach and so forth, and at least

Amit: globetrotting away from this country, which was, uh, far more unjust them than it is now even.

Michael: Right. Right. Yeah. I don't know. I, I, so there's, there's like a, what can we learn? But it's also, what could we have learned? Were we him recognizing that I, that I, I cannot know. Yeah. So we move on next category, net worth. Did you see the same number I did. What'd you find? I

Amit: founded disparate. Uh, range that went, went from 7 million to

Michael: 20 million.

Okay. I saw the 20 million number. Okay. And I thought, holy shit,

Amit: that does seem high. Doesn't it? But even does seven does too. Yeah. That's a lot of money. I was gonna say that's a lot of curly cues. Is that even, is that even a euphemism for money, 20 million being a lot of curly

Michael: years? Carly? I, why not just say 20 million.

Let's go with 20 million. Yeah. Okay, great.

Amit: Let's go with 20. What do you think that's a lot of money it's, especially if you weigh it against this category of fame and you weigh it against economic opportunities, that would be available for a black man born in 1942. Yeah, it is a lot. Of money. I felt great about

Michael: it.

I was happy for him about

Amit: it, and I'm surprised by it. I'm surprised by it too. And I think a lot of it came from not being a player, but remaining on the globe prouder staff and becoming more senior. Yeah. He was also an advisor to the Orlando magic. Yes. Uh, and I'm sure that. Came with some money. I think there were, he was a paid speaker.

You could hire

Michael: him. I saw that as well. That's actually where I got

Amit: some buyout and that can come with, you know, some pretty good money.

Michael: Yeah. I'm sure he made pretty good money on the speaker circuit. And I, I wonder I actually, this is the thing I really want to know is how much of that money, uh, came from his post globe trotting.

Amit: My guess is, is quite a bit of it.

Michael: You never make enough, you know, believe it or not. When I first started, I was only making $700 a month playing with the globe tr we was playing, uh, about 300 games a year. So you can see that's about five, $6,000 a year. So how about when you finish 22 years later, 22 years later, my highest salary was $150,000, which

Amit: is, you know, no money really.

And I think just as well as he like dribbled and kept that ball. Close to his body. He did it with the money too. I don't think he was spending loosely. I think he was a wise man with his money.

Michael: He got a lot of, uh, accolades for being a, a humanitarian as well, and being like very involved with number of charitable organizations.

So I, I have to believe that, like, he seems like a giving back kind of guy, but holy shit, 20 million, that really surprised me. I, I, I expected far less.

Amit: Was expecting like

Michael: one to five. Yeah. Well, good for him, 20 million. I mean, I'm, I'm, I'm happy to be surprised. I am surprised. I don't say he deserved it. I agree with that 6,000, I'm gonna call him performances alone.

Tells me, he deserves it. All right. Uh, next category category six Simpsons C night live or hall of fame. This category is a measure of how famous a person is. We include both guest appearances on SNL or the Simpsons as well as impersonations. I've got this pretty well lined up. I'll start with the Simpsons.

I didn't see anything about him specifically, but there is an episode where crusted the clown bets against the Harlem club. Shotters do

Amit: you remember that? Yes. I remember seeing it like on original air.

Michael: Let me get this straight. You took all the money. You made franchising your name and bid it against the Harlem Globetrotters.

Amit: Um, I thought the generals were due.

Michael: He spinning

the ball on his finger. Just take it, take the ball. Yeah, love that. Okay. But I didn't find any mention of curly Neil Sarah night live amazingly. Yes. Curly himself was on it. Not exactly. So this is a little bit of a deep pull. In 1998, there was a TV fun house episode with the globe Trotters. It was harkening back to the globe.

Trotts cartoon from the 1970s. And they go back in time in the way back machine. They accidentally go too far back and go back to the birth of Jesus. So the globetroters started there in this TV, Funhouse episode, uh, talking to. Um, Joseph and Mary and, uh, and are there when baby Jesus is born and they're playing basketball and curly is like, somebody says, Hey, curly, what do you mean?

We got no game today. Curly it's Christmas metal luck, time Turkey. You're the Turkey curly. That's all I found. It's a deep pull. Uh, but so that's what I got on an SNL. And then finally, halls of fame. He is in the basketball hall of fame, as well as North Carolina sports hall of fame. And I'm sure in others and the Hollywood

Amit: walk of fame.

No. Yeah, not curly himself, but the team, the harm globe riders was given it in 1982.

Michael: I don't know. I guess this gets back to the first line of the OTU. The team is obviously next level famous people know about the Harlem globetroters maybe without even having ever seen them perform. Carly has kind of mentioned casually and that's about as good as it gets.

Yeah. Yeah. I've gotta wedge something in here,

Amit: please. I went to Harlem globetroters basketball camp. When I was no, uh, yeah, when I was a kid, really? Yeah. They had one in Dallas and the Globetrotter that hosted it was shorty Coleman. Wow. And it was just like a week long. I think me and my brother went and we got like little Globetrotters t-shirts and we learned to shoot free throws.

Michael: That sounds outstanding. Yeah. I'm glad to got that in there. All right. Last of the easily knowable categories, category seven, over, under, in this category, we look at the generalized life expectancy for the year. They were born to see if they beat the house odds. And as a measure of grace, Fred Neil was born in 1942 for men in the us that, uh, life expectancy was 64.7.

He lived to 77. So he beat the odds by 13 years. Yeah, pretty good. And the grace, the grace was

Amit: incredible. Incredible. I found interview clips from 2016. Yeah. He looked

Michael: awesome. He looked great. Stayed in shape. Had the same big smile. There is something to be said. So he was six one, which is tall, but for a basketball player, that's not.

Particularly tall, some of those like really tall guys, 6, 6, 6, 7, as they age, it sort of looks kind of painful. Cause your joints just can't. Yeah. It's a lot to, it's a lot to take all that weight and all that height. Right. I think I've seen somewhere that basketball players do tend to die younger because I think for that reason, it's just a, you know, larger bodies.

So very graceful aging. Yeah. Let's ask this question 70. A little young, but not that young.

Amit: No. A 77 I think is our life expectancy. Yeah, approximately. Yeah. It's sad, but it's not young. I, I think a number like 77 and not too long will feel, feel like a young, anything less than 80. I think we're going to enter into, that's gonna feel a little more, um, tragic yeah.

Michael: Than it does now. Yeah. Might and that's great. Yeah, that is good. All right. Let's pause for a word from our sponsor.

Amit: Michael is frugality a desirable quality in life frugality.

Michael: You mean like not draining the bank account every time I go and make a

Amit: purchase? No, like I don't buy sneakers unless they're on sale. I

Michael: see. Yes. Is the answer to that. I like a good deal. Who doesn't when I make a purchase, I want it to be at

Amit: reasonable cost, whether it's on

Michael: sale for sneakers or whether it's at a place

Amit: like half price books, there is a place that you can get books at sneaker discounts

Michael: there sure is.

Um, it's called half price books. In fact, one of the things I love about going to half price books is. Every time I go to the store and I get a nice stack of books and I carry it to the counter. I'm always thinking like, is that number on the register gonna be really high? And it's always less than expected.

It's a really exciting thing to go in there and feel like I got all these

Amit: books at this great deal. And you know, what, half price books to celebrating 50 years of buying and selling books, movies, and music. There are over 120 stores and you can find out more@hpb.com.

Michael: Thus far in our show, we have gathered some of the more easily knowable information. At this point, we move into the more introspective questions, try and get at the inner life. The first of the inner life categories is man in the mirror. What did this person think about their own reflect? Amit loved it.

Amit: Yeah. I sensed a lot of Finese with him the way that he did, like his comedic strut. Yeah. It was somebody that was so comfortable with his body. Yeah. Uh, if you watched clips of that, and then also the bald

Michael: head, that's what I was gonna talk. He started shaving his head at 12, each 12. That is so

Amit: young. I don't think he talked about it directly, but some of his other teammates and all were like, This whole like Michael Jordan shaving his head and Charles Barkley like curly did that way.

Way, way, way, way before. Yeah. That there was none of that graceful tough baldhead look without curly Neil curly, Neil

Michael: icon legend. Those are two words that describe him one, the best globe charter dribblers of all time. And one of my personal favorites. But my greatest tribute is to my favorite globe charter with this slick hair, dude, we love you cur.

All right. Next category, outgoing message. Like man, in the mirror, how did this person feel about the sound of their own voice when they heard it on an answering machine or outgoing voicemail, would they have recorded it or would they have gone with a default setting?

Amit: I'm just judging on a few interview.

Clips spoke confidently, spoke, fluently, liked talking. So I'm going,

Michael: yes. I had the exact same answer and I think it goes along with the smile. Yeah. Like if his, his voice seemed good, I don't think he gave it a second. He's a good interviewer.

Amit: Yeah. If he didn't love life, he was doing a really good job at pretending.

Yeah. Because he, he just seemed to enjoy talking. He seemed to enjoy smiling. It seemed real.

Michael: All right. Next category, regrets, public or private. What we really want to know is what, if anything kept this person awake at night? I had nothing on the public front, on the private front. I did wonder if he kind of wished he'd been in the NBA.

Exactly what I had. Yeah. Yeah. But I don't know what to make of that speculation because sure. Maybe he wanted to be in the NBA, but he was a Harlem globe charter at a good time to be a Harlem Globetrotter. If you're thinking, did he want to be in the NBA where presumably it's more about athletic excellence and less about entertainment and an act and comedy

Amit: exactly.

Of the, the proving yourself and the feeling of Trium. And of winning.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, the General's won every now and yes.

Amit: you gotta wonder about that because that's, you know, he was, uh, an outstanding college basketball player yeah. Where he did win legitimate games, even if it was a terrible racial environment and he wouldn't have made as much money in that the NBA was not even that important of a league.

Michael: I do think that during this time period, the sixties and seventies, the Harlem globe Trott. I think there's a case to be made. We're doing more to educate the world on this sport. Like literally traveling to 90 countries. I don't think most people in the, in Europe or in Africa or in south America had seen basketball before.

Yes.

Amit: DWI said that the first live basketball game that he ever saw was the Globetrotters in Germany. So

Michael: you're sharing a passion for the sport. I would also say though, on that note, that when I look at the. Athletes who are like, excellent, like maybe best ever. LeBron James, Michael Jordan, they don't look like they're having that much fun.

It doesn't look that great. I mean, I think that they have to have a F U attitude to achieve that next level excellence at the end of the day, when you really drill down into what makes somebody really competitive. It does seem like the core emotion is anger. Yeah.

Amit: All sports competitions are metaphors for battle.

Yes. Yeah. That's the other point I wanted to make too, is. He might not have been that good in the NBA. And they say, that's the thing about the Globetrotters is they're people that typically Excel at certain skills of basketball, like in curly Neil's case, uh, dribbling ball handling and long distance shooting.

Those aren't necessarily the same things that make you good at, uh, the NBA competition.

Michael: Right. I have one other private regret. I don't think this is true in his case, but the idea of the globe Trotters as being exploited, the exploitation of black athletes, I think that that was true in a period of their history, right?

They were paid less, they were treated like dog shed. They were sort of put on stage for white audiences. And I read articles where there was a kind of backlash against who they were and what they represented curly. Neil himself wrote a op-ed in USA today. Did you? 2016 or so basically making the case that we are better off for the Globetrotters and this enterprise has always pushed the envelope in the direction of social justice and that felt authentic, but I did wonder.

If there was a, am I being taken advantage of kind of thought in his head, whether there's racial dynamics at play or not, you know what I'm getting at?

Amit: Yeah. I mean, I, I think it's got cross their mind. Yeah. If you had to play a bet, if the Globetrotters were still around in 25 years in its current form,

Michael: what do you think?

Well, you know, what I saw is they actually, um, applied to be part of the NBA. Recently. Yeah. In 2021, they sent a letter saying we'd like to be part of an expansion team. Interesting. Yeah. I don't know if that's gone anywhere. I do know the NBA is flirting with expansion and would kind of like to see the Harlem globe riders be part of the NBA.

All right. Next category. Good dreams, bad dreams. This is not about personal perception, but rather does this person have a haunted look in the eye? Something that suggests inner turmoil, inter demons, unresolved trauma. I didn't see it. I didn't

Amit: see it either. Like I said, I believe the positivity. I believe the smiles, I believe the exuberance, I believe the loving of life.

Yeah. And this guy just, I, I think was just gifted with optimism.

Michael: I agree. I don't see it, but I looked real close.

Amit: Yes. Yeah. Cause I don't like to give this one away. No,

Michael: me neither. And I do, you know, I, I don't mean to be flip when I say, you know, to be born black in America, in the south, in the 1940s.

America's fucking racist, man. Like, you know what I mean? Like I don't, I don't, I think that does, does that come with trauma hardwired in? I don't know. I don't know. I

Amit: can't know. I think so. I mean, I'm, I would make the argument that being born Asian in America, in the seventies being born, anything other

Michael: than white?

Amit: Yeah. That in America that's I think there's, there's some built in trauma. Yeah,

Michael: I I'm I'm. Very willing to hear that yes. And to, and to consider that, but I don't see it in the eye. I don't see it as defining who he is or what he's about. All right. Second to last category, cocktail, coffee, or cannabis. This is where we ask, which would we most want to do with our dead celebrity?

So maybe a question of what kind of drug sounds like the most fun, or it may be that a particular kind of drug allows access to a part of them that we're still most curious about. What'd you have coffee? Me too. Why did you have coffee?

Amit: I think it goes to what I just said. I sense a resilience. I sense. An ability to be optimistic.

I think he may have some secrets of how he looks at things or how he lets things go. And I think there could be a lot of wisdom there that I don't want to be obscured by

Michael: a substance. That's so interesting. I had coffee for a different reason, but kind of the same starting point. I actually want a sober conversation with him about, is it really as good as it looks?

You know, is it really as good as it looks because it looks good? Yeah. I think we've arrived. I think we're at the VanDerBeek named after James VanDerBeek, who said in varsity blues. I don't want your life. Ah, do you want curly Neil's life? We gotta talk it out. Are you on the fence?

Amit: Yeah, I'm on the fence.

Michael: Why, why is this not an obvious? Yes.

Amit: Repetition of the career of 23 years of kind of playing the same game in the same performance,

Michael: even in 90 countries, even in front of Kings and. Queens and ambassadors and

Amit: popes. Yes. I mean, I did with the Wiener mobile, I toured for 16 months. Yeah. Why are you laughing?

Michael: nothing. I just didn't think you were gonna,

Amit: uh, but I essentially, you know, had to play the same, the same act every day. Yeah. And it was exhausting. And even in that period, like there were nice to my hotels. Like I don't even remember who I am. So

Michael: the monotony is a turnoff for you when it comes to curly NE's life for

Amit: 22 years of that.

Yeah. That's something I'm concerned about. Yeah. But what I'll say about curly Neil, the point of this show is we have the complete story wrapped up. Yeah. And if here I stand at 44, which is near the exact age, That Carly Neil started his second act. After being on the court, the man made a mark, like he made a pretty big mark on the game of basketball.

There is a lot of testimony that he was. One of the best of all time. So that's pretty incredible. I mean, Dirk Nuki said that the first live basketball game he ever saw was the Harlem Globetrotters in Germany and curly ne. Was on that team, but the man also had a belief that he was a UniFi, you know, that's what he said in this op-ed.

Yeah. Is that every day and every game, his job was to bring joy and he knew that, and I think he saw himself. As that as a bringer of joy, I think he made a pretty big impact on young black children early on in his career on well to do German, future NBA, all stars. And I think he entertained and brought joy to a lot of the people in between.

And I just believe him. I believe that he loved life. And so I think I'm a, yes, I want your life curly Neil.

Michael: I think that's where I'm at too. I think that's where I was at heading into this. I also wish there was a little bit more information about the love life or the family life

Amit: in general. Yeah. We didn't have a lot on just kind of the signs of inner peace.

Right. Other than what we're triangulating from

Michael: the other stuff. Right. I also think more than anything else, having positive energy contributing to like the stream of life. Putting good vibes out there. Like I think that's up there on my top five list of most desirable character traits, you know, that's who I want to be and that's who I admire.

And I do think that, you know, to bring joy to children, the way the Harlem Globetrotters bring joy to children's just fucking great. It's fucking great. That alone is almost reason enough for me to yes. On the Vander beak. So I'm a. Okay. All right then,

Amit: Michael, you are Fred curly Neal, uh, standing before you is St.

Peter the Unitarian proxy. For all after lives, uh, you have the opportunity to make your case

Michael: at it. I just had this image of, uh, and sort of whiz the ball between St. Peter's legs, you know, bouncing it and like around his head and you sneak

Amit: in. Yeah,

Michael: exactly. Uh, let's see. At a young age, I found my thing. It was basketball and I fell in love with it.

And that sport brought a smile to my face. And what I discovered as I grew into a young man was that people wanted to see me play, but they also wanted to see me smile and that the more I smiled and the more joy I brought to the sport, the more joy I brought to crowds. the more everybody else was smiling.

And I think through that energy, through that positivity, I think I helped break down barriers. I introduced sport and entertainment to an audience that had not seen it before and discovered that our inner humanity. Is actually much simpler or much more pure than we maybe give it credit for. Maybe I was supposed to do something else on planet earth, but I don't think so.

I think I found my thing and I think I rode that wave and I think I did as much good as I possibly could with a hand I was dealt. And for that, please let me in.

Thanks so much for listening to this episode. Famous and gravy. If you are enjoying our show, we have a favor to ask. We hear from a lot of people that this show cheers, 'em up. It puts 'em in a good mood. So think of somebody in your life, just one person who you'd like to cheer up and share an episode of our show with them, be like, Hey man, here's an episode of famous and gravy.

Share it with anybody who you think could stand to be put in a good mood. We are on Twitter. Our Twitter handle is at famous and gravy. We also have a newsletter which you can sign up for on our website, famous and gravy.com. Famous and gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me Michael Osborne. This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss.

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