053 Heartwarming Humor transcript (Louie Anderson)

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[00:00:00] Amit: This is Famous and Gravy, a show where we study famous lives in search for the secret sauce to living well. Now for the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

[00:00:12] Michael: This person died 2022, age 68. One critic said he had a low key act that could fit comfortably into the category of family entertainment.

[00:00:25] Friend: This is making me think of a comedian. It's gotta be like one of the Smothers brothers or something like that.

[00:00:30] Michael: Not a Smother's brother. He had a self-deprecating style that won him legions of fans. Among them, Henny Youngman and Johnny Carson, whose early support catapulted him to stardom.

[00:00:42] Friend: Robin Williams.

[00:00:43] Michael: Not Robin Williams. He had small roles in Ferris Bueller's Day off and coming to America.

[00:00:50] Friend: Oh my gosh. I know Ferris Bueller's day off like the back of my hand. Judd Nelson.

[00:00:55] Michael: Not Judd Nelson. He was nominated three times for a supporting actor Emmy, which he won in 2016.

[00:01:03] Friend: That's awesome. I'm so glad for him. Oh, um, it's on the tip of my tounge.

[00:01:10] Michael: His comedy routine was heavy on jokes about his own weight, which topped 300 pounds at times.

Is it Lou? It's, it's, uh,

[00:01:19] Friend: it's not Louie. It's that comic that, that the big goofy guy. Louie Anderson, uh, um, Louie Anderson. It's Louie Anderson.

[00:01:27] Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Louie Anderson.

[00:01:34] Archival: My next guest is named, uh, Louie Anderson. He's a comedian. He's making his first appearance on national television. I can stay long. I'm in between meals, so bear with me.

I am from Minnesota. Any Minnesota, could I get a ride home with you? Where would we put 'em? My favorite thing is when you go over to someone's house and you're fat, they. They overcompensate. Oh, come on in Louie, sit down here in this concrete sofa. Knew what I do. Head right for that wicker.

Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

[00:02:22] Amit: My name is Amit Kapoor.

[00:02:23] Michael: We are midlife, give or take, and we believe that the best years might lie ahead. So on this show, we study a celebrity who died in the last 10 years. We go through a series of categories in search of ingredients to life that we might desire and ultimately ask a big question, would I want that life today?

Louie Anderson died 2022, age 68, category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Louie Anderson. The genial, standup comedian, actor and television host who won an Emmy award for his work on the series baskets and two daytime Emmys for his animated children's show. Life with Louie died on Friday in Las Vegas.

He was 68. Kind of like it out the gate. Yeah, I did too. Actually. The one word that popped out for me was genial. Yeah. Definition, please. Yep, I've got it right here. Friendly and cheerful. Perfect. Yeah, he's such a sweet guy, like big heart. I mean, you feel it. Everybody's around him has this like smile at him, kind of love this guy.

Energy. You know, genial is also like a really nice word. Whoever wrote this obituary was like, what's a great word that captures his vibe and what it's like to be around him. You don't hear it a lot. Like I don't hear people described as genial all that often. It's really perfect, like high scores outta the gate for verbiage.

Um, yeah, I

[00:03:52] Amit: like the reverse bookend too that start with, most recently he won these Emmys, and by the way, he also won Emmys two, three decades

[00:03:59] Michael: ago. One of the things about standup comedians is, it's funny that I feel like. It's never enough to just be a standup comedian. Like if you think about who we've done on the show, Gary Shandling, they had to point to the Gary Chandling show and Larry Sanders, norm McDonald, they point to his run on S N L.

Joan Rivers, her, you know, experience as a host. But I mean, all of those people I think would first and foremost call themselves standup comics. Yes. Like somehow that is never enough.

[00:04:28] Amit: Yeah. Cuz standup comedy in itself I don't think has these big anchor points. You know, there's not one album or one special very, very rarely that defines the entire standup comedian, but by pointing to these projects that they did, that standup led to, yeah.

You have an anchor rather than just a continuous moment of

[00:04:47] Michael: a career. Yeah. I mean, I don't know, is this perfect, Amit? Uh, no. We have to

[00:04:53] Amit: always play the missing

[00:04:54] Michael: game. Okay. I think there's one thing missing here. Hmm. His weight. First line. I don't know. It's so noticeable. It's so visual. It's so like such a part of his act and his roles in a way.

Like it factored into his comedy all the time. Oh boy. People say, Louie, why you do those fat shows? Because if I didn't, you guys would sit out there and go, do you think he knows he's that big?

Like I woke up one morning, oh no honey, get in here. It feels a little bit awkward, obviously to say like the overweight or heavy or obese or any word you might want to use here. But it is also like, If you're reading this obit to somebody and you say He is a standup comic and a host and an actor, you might be like, oh, I'm not sure.

But if you said he was a big guy, yes, you probably would. Right. So there is a, a quality of you know him for that. Yes. Right. For better or worse, uh, you know, maybe the respectful thing is to not speak to it in the first line of the obituary, and I'm on board with that. But it's worth talking about. You're right.

[00:06:05] Amit: Because it is a very defining part of who he was. All of these roles and all of the comedy we talk about is largely centered around his size. Uh, yes, exactly. Um, it is a disservice possibly information wise, right. In informing the reader and forming the picture of who this person was. So there's a part of your

[00:06:24] Michael: stomach.

Yeah. That has, uh, gremlins in it. Yeah. And they're, I think they're a, uh, hormone. Okay. Oh, right, right. And so at night, yeah. Those are the things that go, Hey, yeah, mark. Yeah. Starving. We just ate. Uh, we didn't really eat. We work.

[00:06:41] Amit: We're starving.

[00:06:43] Michael: I hadn't thought about this before, but if you think of somebody who's very short or very tall or very large, or somehow their physical appearance is central to the nature of their fame.

Yes. Then, you know, is there usually an obligation. For the New York Times or any other obit writer to make note of it in the first line.

[00:07:02] Amit: So the verdict then, is it a proper omission or is it a

[00:07:05] Michael: negligent omission? I think it's actually a proper omission. I, I, I don't think that there is a graceful, respectful way of doing it.

Do you think it's an omission? I, no, I

[00:07:14] Amit: think I'm on your side. It is an omission. I think it is possibly an intentional, uh, right thing to do. Omission.

[00:07:20] Michael: Yeah. All right. Well, what else, what other, are there other omissions you would put in here? I mean, I mean,

[00:07:25] Amit: this is just the tough part of Louie Anderson.

There's not like the proper noun to attach to him, right. That that defines it. That you will instantly go back to, and they did

[00:07:33] Michael: get in here, standup comedian, actor and television host. That's all right. That's all like I'm, I'm pretty satisfied with, those are the three things that he mostly did. Right. Okay.

There's even a little bit died on in Las Vegas and I think he's got a real close association with Vegas cuz he set up camp there and made, essentially made a career there later in life, fully lived there for, for upward of 10 plus years. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, I think it sounds like closer to 20 after Family Feud, so I don't, yeah, I mean, I, I'm actually, I've got my score.

I'm giving this a 10 out of 10. 10 out of 10. I, I really don't think that there's more they could have, should have done, and I'm satisfied with what this says and I think it is like a very. Succinct description of who he was. I, I suppose you could make a case the, his voice is so unique that you almost, like if you wanted to add on to this, you could maybe say something more about it.

But I just thought of that. I mean, so I'm giving it 10 out of 10. I'm in that generous

mood

[00:08:30] Amit: today. God, I hate giving a 10 out of 10 all right's. There's gotta be something wrong. I don't, I just gave

[00:08:35] Michael: you, I just gave you something, the voice,

[00:08:36] Amit: but No, but I'm not, I'm not just gonna do that for the sake of it.

Um, so I'm still going very high. I'm going an a plus. I'm gonna give a nine. Okay. Okay. The reason that it's not a 10 is Wow. Well, you, you, there are certain things that I see and I come out and I'm like, oh, wow. Yeah. I don't know that I've had that in a first line about an obituary, and maybe that's why I think I've doled out one 10.

Yeah. So I'm, I'm giving it a very standing ovation. Nine. Okay.

[00:09:03] Michael: Category two. Five things I love about you here. Amit and I come up with five reasons why we love this person, why we want to be talking about them in the first place. I wanna say something before I get into it. I realized when I was looking back over my notes, all of these are in a sense, variations on a theme.

They are all about self-love and self-care. And I didn't realize that I did that until after I put my notes together. But I actually am sort of glad it came out that way because I do think that on the surface it's not obvious that there is a lot of self-love and self-care in Louie Anderson's life. So there's my qualification.

These are all variations on that theme in a sense. It's something I've come to pay attention to in our show, funnily enough, ever since the Florence Henderson episode where we talked about, uh, you know, hypnotherapy. Yes. Right. And that was such a weird one to me, but it's also like, huh, I wanna have a good, nice laundry list of things that fall into the category of self-love and self-care.

And so it's something I'm sort of looking for. And as soon as I applied that filter to Louie Anderson's life, I saw more than I would've expected. That is a pretty good segue to my number one. Letter writer. He wrote letters to achieve closure. And he did this twice in two books once to his father, okay?

And once to his mother, where the whole book is just him writing letters to his deceased parents. And a lot of it is saying things he always wanted to say. Anyway, it kills me that I didn't ask you a bunch of things that I think about more and more these days. I often think about childhood in our family and the things that make us who we are.

I mean, these are not in a way easy books to read. They're a series of letters, so there's not like a, you know, dynamite narrative structure or something. It's not like a, a page turner. But I got to thinking, there was a time in my life where I wrote letters. These days I write emails. It's not the same thing.

Pen to paper is a different experience, you know, in terms of what you put into it, how thoughtful it looks. But even more than that, I have on more than one occasion written a letter to somebody. Who, I'm not sure if it's ever gonna find them or reach 'em, but I put words on the page saying, here's something I need to say to you.

Oftentimes in the kind of regret category, and there is something really healthy, I think about that exercise and Louie Anderson did that. Okay. So I'm going as simple as letter writer. Okay. Have you written a letter lately? Uh,

[00:11:33] Amit: I've written a lengthy email. Okay. Yeah. That's different. No, then I haven't written a letter.

I mean, 20 plus years. So

[00:11:40] Michael: isn't isn't this like not a bad idea to think about that, right? Are there people out there who relationships out there or anything in your life or your past where you're like, Ugh, when I think about that one, ugh. You know, I gotta pit in my stomach where, you know, maybe if I wrote a letter to that person and never sent it, like, doesn't that.

Imagining that like, you know, have some sort of like, I don't know, light at the end of the tunnel. Hope resolution around it.

[00:12:06] Amit: Yeah. So I will say this. I've, I've been at the other end. Yeah. I've been at the receiving end of a letter, and I think we've even talked about this. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I do love it.

I, I do think it's a great actor, I don't know, closure, but at least

[00:12:17] Michael: it's catharsis. Maybe a better way to say it is as an act of forgiveness. And I think Louie talks about this with his father as a, you know, he had an alcoholic father. This guy was abusive, and he came from a family of 11 children. I mean, you never knew what the hell you were gonna get.

I mean, classic sort of, you know, child of alcoholic, right? He talks about his book, about his father as being an exercise in learning how to forgive this man. So maybe it's not closure so much as forgiveness. And I think with his mother, the forgiveness is on him that he's doing this for himself. I'm saying these things to you now, mom, and I wish you were here and I miss you.

So I love that about him. So that's my thing, number one. I like it. I like

[00:12:56] Amit: it a lot. Thing number two. Thing number two, he was a first name guy. Yeah. And this I picked up from an interview that Jonathan Crystal gave. Do you know who he is? No. He was one of the co-creators of baskets more, more exciting to me.

He was a co-creator of Portlandia? Yes. Okay. I do

[00:13:12] Michael: know who

[00:13:13] Amit: he is now. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So big, big comedy writer guy friends with Louie, they worked together on baskets. So he told a story about basket

[00:13:20] Michael: baskets. Do we need to explain baskets to people? I mean, I think just very briefly, it's a z Galifianakis TV show where Louie Anderson plays Zach Galivan, AKIs mother, and she's a mother of four.

Uh, Z has a twin that brothers are called Chippendale. Yes. And, and then there's, there's adopted brothers as

[00:13:36] Amit: well. And he was a rodeo clown. Yes. Who basically, it's a very Zack Gki character goes Yeah. A lot of dry humor in this goes in and out of living with his mother. But

[00:13:45] Michael: like Blue Anderson ended up getting nominated and winning Emmys for this role.

Yes. Yeah. And playing it in drag, playing it as a woman, right? Yes. Now, you know, where would I be if I didn't have my son? Yeah. I wouldn't be, oh yeah. I wouldn't be able to meet all these interesting people. Here you go. That's right. You know, that's what you, I don't think you realize what you, you add to my life school.

Well, I'd be just an old woman sitting on a, on a couch alone, you know? But here I am with world travelers, clowns, performers.

[00:14:19] Amit: Okay. So they go to Lids, you know, like the shopping mall hat store. Yeah. And they'd like gone in the morning and place your, and then they come back to pick 'em up. And Louie is, uh, just chatting up the guy at Lids, and he and Jonathan's thinking, oh, they must have like, really know each other.

And it was no, they, they met that morning and Louie was just genuinely interested in the guy and chatting with him, and they struck up a friendship. Yeah. Jonathan said that one of the secrets to that was, Louie was always a first name guy with people that he met casually, specifically maybe service workers or people that are, are working in stores or transactional environments.

Yeah. You know, he'd always make an effort to learn the first name and address the person by the first name, and I absolutely love that. Yeah. Because I've tried to practice it and it really is a life-changing thing. If you do it and you do it with the right intention, really wanting to know how this person's day is really wanting to just have some chat to gleam something from them, know something about their life.

Yeah. It makes them being seen. It lets you sort of create a connection. You exist more deeply in this intertwined world, and it's that simple as just asking the first name, remembering it. And sticking

[00:15:29] Michael: to it. I love that. This is great, Amit. Yeah. Yeah.

[00:15:32] Amit: And sounds like Louie Anderson was one of those

[00:15:34] Michael: guys.

Yeah. My dad's one of those guys. I think I'm kind of one of those guys. You are. I try to be, I wasm actually gonna say that. I mean, we went out for drinks the other night and I, you know, you always ask the name of the waitress or the waiter. Yeah, I do.

[00:15:46] Amit: I do. And I, because I like, I like it. I'm not like trying to be like, get better

[00:15:50] Michael: service.

No, but you said the key thing in there. It is. Seeing somebody just by like acknowledging somebody's name. They are a little bit more seen and most people are walking around in the world unseen. Yes. Most of the time. Right. And learning somebody's name and using their name when you address them is a very small but extremely meaningful gesture.

Totally. And it's very telling. Yeah. It's very telling. That's great. That's a great number two first name guy. Okay. Thing number three for me. Mm-hmm. This one's a little heavy, but I'm gonna go ahead and throw it out there. Okay. Proud crier. Ooh. Who? Yeah. Okay. This came up in the interview he did with Mark Marin.

He says something to Mark Marin like, do you cry? And Mark Marin's like, eh, I not really. And he is like, you should, like he, he talks about crying as a good, healthy thing to do. Louie Anderson experienced a lot of trauma in his life. He talks about that on stage and in interviews a lot. I put it as a thing I love about him because this is not something that is easy for me.

I cry. I wouldn't deny that, but I'm not proud about it. When tears come to me, I, my gut reaction is to fight him back. Withhold him. Yes. Yeah, totally. Like I, I, I got it into my head as a boy somewhere that it is an unmanly thing to do, to cry. And I feel like I know better now that there's a lot, like my head knows better intellectually.

I know better. Look, crying is okay. There's nothing to be ashamed of. It's like a healthy thing to do. I can hear that. It does not come easy to me to sort of cry in front of anybody else, but I like that he told Mark Marin, it's a good thing to do. You have nothing to be ashamed of, and you don't see a lot of men saying that.

I think there's an obvious vulnerability around it, and I think as much as we try and redefine gender roles, I think that this is a real sticking point. It's a real action that says a lot about where we are and are not as a evolved society. So I love that about him and I'm impressed by it. I'm a

[00:17:52] Amit: terrible crier.

Yeah. Like I, I'm just not, I don't do it often. I don't do it well. It's always feels good, whether it's for grief or for joy. Yeah. But I, I bury it. I bury it. I can can't. That's

[00:18:03] Michael: the thing. It does feel good, right? Yeah. I mean, if you get it out, it feels good. And it's sort of like, it's confusing to me. I remember I had, I had to put a cat down once, A cat I grew up with that I absolutely loved Sophie was her name.

Yeah. And I was around like 19 or 20 or something. I was at my parents' house, they were outta town. The cat got really sick, took it to the vet. They said we might be able to get another year or so out of this cat, but it kind of looks like time. But they left the decision in my court. I said, okay, you know what?

I think it's time. Let's put this cat down. I was actually very close with this cat. She used to come, you know, sleep on my bed and was very sweet. And whenever I was home from like college or whatever, like she sought me out. There was a connection I had with this animal. And so I made the decision and she let out this awful Yelp right before.

Her final moment and I stumbled out of the vet clinic into the parking lot and just fucking lost it. Yeah. I mean, completely ball my eyes out. Totally caught me off guard. I wasn't ready for it. It was, I can't, I can't remember a time in life where I was like, that caught off guard by my own reaction to tears.

Right. And it was a good, like, that's a good reaction to that moment. I just made a decision to put down an animal that I cared about. And like there's a lot of emotion around that. And just hearing Louie Anderson say, you should cry. It's a good thing. It always feels better. There's nothing wrong with that.

I don't hear that that often. And I think it's important for somebody who is vulnerable to say it publicly. Yes. So that's my thing. Number

[00:19:32] Amit: three. Okay. Really like it. Number four. Oh God, it's number four. That's perfect. He could tell a four word joke.

[00:19:41] Michael: I knew there was gonna be a pun attached to number four. Uh, I didn't know. I didn't

[00:19:44] Amit: know it was gonna, it was gonna work out that way. Uh, the four word joke that I picked up on was Broad Jump killed her.

[00:19:51] Michael: Of course, what brought me to California was the Olympics. I was, uh, tried every event for the Olympics.

Uh, tried that poll vote. I drove that sucker right into the ground. I did a good thing though. I straightened out those uneven parallel bars.

Broad jump killed her.

[00:20:19] Amit: There's just genius behind it. Yeah, and this is the thing that I think is. Possibly one of the most underestimated things, uh, about Louie Anderson is the guy's really smart and sharp. Yes. You know, because I think of the weight and a lot of the self-deprecating humor that defined him more early on. Yeah.

You kind of see him as just a jokester. Right. But no, he's actually really sharp. So I think the ability to, to craft and tell a four word joke is genius. It, it reminds me of a couple of things. It reminds me of our last conversation about Tom Wolf. Mm-hmm. About like, in creating words that last Yeah. You know, this is all about words and it's all about just taking these tiny things and making them so effective and so powerful.

Yeah. It is drilling down into complete and total simplicity to get a perfect message out there, and I

[00:21:07] Michael: strive for it. I know you love that. I know you love the like, really succinct, tight, economical messages. Yeah.

[00:21:13] Amit: Yeah. And so that's what I'm giving to Louie. Yeah. He could tell a

[00:21:16] Michael: four word joke. I love it.

Perfect. For number four. Okay. I, I've got a number five. Comedy is therapy. There is a conversation that in retrospect is very bittersweet between Bob Sagat, Louie Anderson, where, uh, cuz they, they died like essentially within a month of each other. Mm-hmm. Um, where Bob Saggot asked Louie Anderson, did you ever think about becoming a counselor or a therapist or anything like that?

You, you seem to have the right instinct for that sort of job, that role. And he is like, I find comedy to be therapeutic. I think you could make the case that that's true for just about all comics and that's fine. I do think that there is a, if I laugh at it, some of my trauma loses power. There's a way for me in which Louie Anderson's comedy goes a level deeper.

And I think it's because it's so primal. It is often about family, and it is often about his struggle with his weight and with his self, that I do think there's a such a lightheartedness to it that I admire the disarming power of humor, and I think it's really, really important.

[00:22:17] Amit: So he actually was a social worker That's right.

Before he became Yeah, a comedian. He worked with kids, right? Yeah. Yeah. And it was basically he was, he was just taking the same skill. Yeah. And you know, putting it a little more inward, but by doing that, presenting it outward for other

[00:22:32] Michael: people. And I mean, I think it's interesting that he worked with kids in a way.

I really enjoy that about him. I think he's got that family friendly vibe. I go so far as to say with every episode of researching for Famous and Gravy, I almost always have to wait till after my kids go to sleep. I watched a ton of standup comedy with my kid, with my nine year old. And he was laughing the whole time, like it was it.

It's the first time I've ever connected with my son over standup comedy. Oh, you must have loved that. I loved it. Yeah. I absolutely loved it. I was like, do you want to come here and do some more research with me? Let's sit and watch this guy. So, you know, comedy is therapy. Let's recap number one. I said letter writer number two.

You said the first name guy. I really enjoy that one. I'm gonna have to incorporate that into life Number three. I said proud crier. Number four, you said forward joke. And then number five, I said, comedy is therapy. Category three. Malkovich Malkovich. This category is named after the movie being John Malkovich, in which people take a portal into John Malkovich mind and they can have a front row seat to his experiences.

This is a well known one, but I just love it. The Coming to America story. I think it happens in 87 and it's before Coming to America. Comes out, and this is how Louie Anderson came to be in the movie Coming to America, the Eddie Murphy Blockbuster. So I. Louie Anderson had had his Tonight Show experience.

He was already kind of a well established comic. He didn't know Eddie Murphy really well, but he knew him a little bit from, it sounds like the Comedy Store and other standup clubs around LA and Eddie Murphy's huge at this point. Eddie Murphy. It's a little hard to overstate like how big Eddie was in the eighties.

I mean, he has just been on a lightning streak with trading places. Beverly Hills cop, 48 hours, the standup raw and delirious and all that. Like he was such a blockbuster star. So Louie Anderson is eating at this restaurant, I think it's a fairly well known, like you're often, you're likely to run into celebrities at this restaurant.

And Eddie Murphy comes in with his entourage and Louie Anderson pulls a waiter over and he says, Hey listen, here's my American Express card. Put Eddie's bill on my. Card, but don't tell 'em until after I leave. I'm not doing it to, to be a big shot. I'm doing it cuz I'm from the Midwest. And that's something you would do?

Mm, so I did it cuz nobody ever buys Eddie. Yeah. I be, I didn't think, and that's the kind of thing I like to do. So the next day I get a call, I'm doing this little movie called Coming to America. I'm gonna get a, I'm gonna put a part in it for you. Wow. Wow. Are you serious? I'm serious. And it was, uh, the best $660 I ever spent.

Uh, he, he's later called the token white guy in coming to America. My malkovich is, why did he do this? You know, he, he, I've heard him say in the interviews, eh, it's kind of a Midwestern thing. We just do that. But that's not sufficient explanation for me. Like he, he, he says, you know, nobody's ever gonna pick up Eddie Murphy's tab.

That's

[00:25:29] Amit: what I picked up on. Yeah.

[00:25:30] Michael: Yeah. And, and, and, and I, I love that. Right? I don't know how much money Louie Anderson has at this moment, but that's what a, like hell of a gesture. Like, here's somebody who is a crazy big deal, comes into a restaurant with, you know, an eight person or more entourage. Screw it, I'm going to buy their lunch.

What a move. You know? Yeah. And it winds up leading to what is ultimately a really important role in Louie Anderson's career. That cameo. I mean, it's not a big part, but, you know, everybody remembers Hello? Hi. You know, I started on cleanup just like you guys, but now see I'm washing lettuce. Soon I'll be on fries.

Then the grill a year or two, I make assistant manager and that's where the big bucks start rolling in. It's a malkovich for me cuz I want to like, one, I love the move, but two, you know, what was he thinking about when he said, I'm gonna buy that meal?

[00:26:27] Amit: What I think is that he sees Eddie Murphy, who probably is enjoying fame and recognition more than Louie Anderson ever did.

He sure looked like it in the eighties. Yeah. But it was like, how can I make somebody happy that, uh, really seemingly has everything because the, the keyword there is seemingly Yeah. Right. Yeah. Like, you, you don't get enough surprise and delight. Yeah. Right. And you still need it. Yeah.

[00:26:50] Michael: All right. That's my malkovich.

Okay, great

[00:26:52] Amit: one. All right. Mine, uh, is going to be almost 30 years later, 2016. Mm. Are you familiar with the show Drunk History? I am. Okay. I'm glad you brought this up. One of my favorite shows ever. So, Derek Water is the creator of Drunk History as a big Louie Anderson fan. Mm-hmm. And you know, if you're familiar with Drunk History, he brings in lots and lots of random people to play bit parts or tell stories.

Yep. And so they're doing an episode called The Roosevelts,

[00:27:17] Michael: but stories about history, like famous moments in history, right? Correct.

[00:27:20] Amit: It's, it's a real history being retold by drunk people and simultaneously acted out semis silently by real actors like Reenacted in a way. Yeah. So we'll have to put one in the show notes.

Unfortunately, this specific episode is behind a paywall, so I could not find it, but we'll put a Drunk History, something in the show notes. Yeah. So anyway, Derek Waters the creator of Drunk History, who also starred in a lot of it. Was a Louie Anderson fan. They're doing this episode called The Roosevelts.

There's a segment on it, uh, about FDRs relationship with Winston Churchill. Yes. And he's like, I got it. Louie Anderson is gonna play Winston Churchill. Yes. And this is the Malkovich part of it is dressing up and playing Winston Churchill. Mm-hmm. And it's because of this, through his entire career, he's made to be sort of a self-deprecating, big guy.

It's all part of the act. It's all part of the jolly and the genial. It's part of the therapy Exactly as you said. Yeah. Never before did I see a sign of it being power. And Winston Churchill still, you know, is so revered for his power, his intelligence, his strategy. And a lot of that did come with his size.

Winston Churchill was Louie Anderson's size. Yeah. And so by getting to play Churchill in, in, in this. Comedic sense. You know, he's getting to put Hitler in a headlock. He's getting to play battleship with fdr. I wanna be there behind his eyes as he gets to enjoy his size for its power. Yeah. And so I loved that Louie got to do that.

I saw joy in his eyes as he described it. I wanted to be behind the eyes as he felt that joy and that power.

[00:28:57] Michael: That's great. Malkovich. Let's pause for a word from our sponsor.

[00:29:04] Amit: Michael, you don't. When we go to restaurants and I don't know what to order, then ultimately I'll just ask the server, well, what should I order next?

Yeah. And I wish a similar thing existed for other things I consume like, like books did you say? For

[00:29:19] Michael: books. For books. Oh. Well that's easy if you go to half price books. There are all kinds of people who work in this store who are excellent at recommending books. Have you ever done this?

[00:29:31] Amit: No, I've never known to ask them.

I thought they

[00:29:34] Michael: were just, they are knowledge keepers. They are readers and they're there to say, Hey, how can I help you? What are you reading these days? What are you into? What are you looking for? I mean, every time I've gotten into a conversation with one of the half Price Books employees, I've always walked out of there with something new.

That was excellent.

[00:29:51] Amit: So you're saying I can go ask a half Price Books book seller if I don't know what to read next, or I'm looking for a gift

[00:29:59] Michael: idea? I think that's exactly right. You don't need to know what you're gonna buy when you walk into half price books. And if you just need a book, these people are there to help.

And you know what? Half Price Books is The Nation's largest new and used bookseller with 120 stores in 19 states. And Half Price Books is also online@hpb.com.

Hey, famous and gravy listeners, Michael Osborne Here I have a podcast I wanna tell you about. This one is near and dear to my heart. It is called Sound Judgment, and it's all about what it takes to become a beloved podcast host. Amit and I were actually interviewed for sound judgment. The episode is releasing on Thursday, June 29th.

And I cannot tell you how thrilled we were to be a part of this show because the whole podcast is excellent. Elaine Appleton Grant goes behind the scenes with today's great podcast hosts to dissect episodes and show how creators make audio storytelling magic. Part of what makes it so special is that it is one, a recommendation engine.

It's a great place to find new shows, but two, it's a real fun behind the scenes exploration of what makes great audio storytelling work. So Amit NA's episode, which again, releases on Thursday, June 29th, is definitely worth a listen, but I absolutely encourage you to check out the whole back catalog.

Elaine Appleton grant is just a gem. Very thoughtful conversations. I think you'll enjoy it. Sound judgment, check it out. Category four, love and marriage. How many marriages? Also, how many kids? And is there anything public about these relationships?

[00:31:47] Amit: I'm very confused here on this one, so you're

[00:31:49] Michael: gonna have to talk me through a lot about it.

I'll tell you what I found. It's pretty simple. Essentially there are, I think two marriages and they were both kind of back to back. The first one is a woman named Diane Jean Vaughn. This is around 1984. Louie is 31. They divorced after four months. Then in 1985, he married his high school sweetheart, a woman named Norma j Walker.

They divorced after four weeks and that's it. That's it. Louie Anderson was otherwise single and uh, no children. So that is the whole story as is publicly available. He doesn't talk about these marriages or his love life at all, almost anywhere else. There's almost nothing to be said here.

[00:32:36] Amit: Let's just take these two marriages that lasted, it sounds like a total of five

[00:32:40] Michael: months.

Age 31,

[00:32:41] Amit: 32. And also this is his emergence, right? 84. Yeah. This is after his car. 84

[00:32:46] Michael: is the Carson appearance. And we have to point out that, you know, he, he kills it on his first Carson appearance. I mean, you know, and so much so that Johnny says, come back out. And from then on his life was on a

[00:32:57] Amit: different trajectory.

Yeah. And this is exactly when he gets married back to back, right. As he's on this trajectory. So I'm wondering if he's like, okay, I'm validated. Yeah. You know, and I've made it, and I need to just get things in order. Right. I need to ride this wave. I need to, and yeah. And maybe this is why he's jumping into these marriages at this time.

Yeah. What do you see in that, that like, this is the upward trajectory, this is the beginning of it, and he does these back-to-back marriages never to be repeated again.

[00:33:24] Michael: I think I have more to say on this in a later category. Okay. All we should and could say right now is we do not know. Okay,

[00:33:34] Amit: and we don't even know who ended these

[00:33:36] Michael: marriages.

It sounds like it was mutual. He did say that and he did say, we both realized this was a mistake, but no, we don't know much, and he very rarely spoke to it. It didn't come up in the biographies I read. Yeah,

[00:33:50] Amit: it sounds like he took a few swings, tried it didn't work. I think for an explosive amount of reasons.

Yeah. One of those we need to get out there, like his sexuality is not even fully known.

[00:34:01] Michael: There's a scandal that comes up later in his life where he sounds like proposition to man. And I mean, it was really hard to get details about what all happened, but this was at a time when he was kind of claiming space in, in family friendly territory.

And so I think he was worried that any kind of relationship or interaction that didn't speak to family values as understood in the nineties would threaten his career. He initially paid off this guy who blackmailed him, and then when the guy came back for more money, he got the FBI involved, that the FBI staged a sting operation, caught him and ended up throwing him in jail.

When Louie Anderson talks about this whole incident and affair, he says, I was drinking a lot at the time. I was kind of outta my head and I was a little bit drunk on fame, but he's pretty dismissive to not say much of it. It cannot help but make you wonder. Was he gay or was he bisexual? So there's this incident and then there is another incident with a young comic saying that Louie Anderson acted perhaps inappropriately.

That comic then was like, I didn't mean to overstate that Louie Anderson's a good guy. Don't ask any more questions. And everybody kind of moved past it. I think we don't know enough to say anymore. We know he never married again, and it's possible. So where did you and I take this? Ah, because this is, if, if he was gay, he never said it.

No. And so I kind of want to be respectful. On the other hand, you know, I don't know. Should we talk about the possibility that he may have remained closeted for his entire adult life up until 2022 maybe. And that concerns me. Yeah, I, I mean, if that's true, of course that's concerning that he never felt comfortable enough to come out.

I can't see the sort of risk to career. I mean, l you know, life with Louie, the cartoon in the nineties was very successful hosting Family Feud. I mean, you get that job because you are acceptable to America, right. With a very conservative audience. So all of that, like the, the prospect that he might have been closeted gay is really upsetting, but I don't, I don't know how far to go with that.

If the evidence for it is pretty thin. Yeah. It's pure conjecture.

[00:36:20] Amit: Right? Right. Don't know. It it is. Yes. It, it would be saddening and heartbreaking if he was, and it was a key role in his life and his happiness and he felt like he had to withhold it. Yeah, that would be awful. I would hate that. There is also another possibility, another narrative that just like romance and sexuality just aren't that important to him.

There's

[00:36:40] Michael: just so much we don't know here and it feels weird to me to like speculate on all this. If we wanna bring this back to the north star of Famous and Gravy desirability and ingredients for the secret sauce of life. I'm not sure what to extract here other than it gives me pause that there might have been a secret.

Uh, and if that's not true, then you know, I, I wonder if he felt loved and validated in a sexual relationship anywhere. You don't see a ton of evidence for it, but we don't really know. Yeah. Maybe one last thing to ask though. Does it, does his life look lonely to you? That's a great

[00:37:17] Amit: question. I think that's the perfect summation of it.

Uh, it does

[00:37:20] Michael: not. Yeah. And it's partly because of how his friends talk about him. I mean, even that Bob Sage interview, Bob Saget says, man, every time I see you, I just wanna give you a big hug. I don't think he looks especially lonely for somebody who is, you know, objectively a bachelor for most of his life.

[00:37:37] Amit: Yeah. He had deep friendships. Yeah. And deep connections. And it seems like he, he was very active in surrounding himself

[00:37:43] Michael: with friends a lot. I think it's also important to say, maybe here, and this could come up later, but he talks about being an Over Eaters Anonymous. Yes. Which is also a support group where I think that there is a lot of love available.

Right. Yeah. Among other things. So I do think he's got love coming in and going out, but yeah, mostly this category is a question mark for me. All right. Category five net worth 10 million. Yes. 10 million. I love it. Love that number. It's a great number for Louie Anderson. It's a great number overall.

[00:38:11] Amit: It is.

It's a great number for Louie Anderson. And I'm getting increasingly curious about this category one, we know the flaws of net worth being your value at death, which doesn't necessarily mean anything about what you've accumulated. Yeah. Um,

[00:38:23] Michael: it does sound like, okay, after he loses the Family Feud job in the early two thousands, like that's when he moves to Vegas and has like a theater named arom.

He has a Vegas act for, you know, 10 plus years. Yes. Like that is a, his steady job and a steady stream. And he seems to love it. And he ventures out on the road some, but he's got stability. Yeah.

[00:38:44] Amit: And I think what's important here is he grew up like dirt, dirt,

[00:38:47] Michael: dirt, dirt. Yeah. He talks about growing up in the projects.

Yes. Right. 11 children. He is number 10 of 11. He talks about an older sibling being like 20 years older than him. His mom was, I think in her early forties when Louie was born. Yeah. And father was like mid fifties. Yeah. And just a hard scrabble life in St. Paul. Yeah. It sounds like,

[00:39:05] Amit: yeah. So there's Triumph in the will.

Yeah. In 10 million. Yeah.

[00:39:08] Michael: Yes. And I took his, took his mom to Europe and shit like that, you know? Yeah. And like,

[00:39:12] Amit: yeah, I think there's, I, I think there's, yeah, there's a lot of great things to say about it. Yeah. The sources I, I found very interesting. So Family Feud, hosting it from 99 to 2002, I paid a million and a half dollars a year.

Really? Yes.

[00:39:25] Michael: Wow. That's lucrative. Yeah, I know. I guess, you know, I've, ever since the Alex Trebek episode where I learned that he got 250 million, like Jesus Christ, these game show hosts, that's a windfall, like big, big money. If you are able to land that gig and keep it for a while when

[00:39:41] Amit: you've only got one cast member, essentially.

[00:39:44] Michael: So, okay. That makes sense for a good, what other sources did you come up with? Just

the

[00:39:47] Amit: accumulation of everything he'd done. I think a lot of this is Life with Louie, and maybe it's even some baskets and the other TV shows even probably small, small. Uh, royalties from coming to America. Yeah. He was making $120,000 a year in purely residual income.

Is that right? Purely passive income and royalty income from all of this life's

[00:40:05] Michael: work that he'd done. Well, anything more to say about net worth? No. It just seems about

[00:40:09] Amit: right. Yeah. I like it

[00:40:10] Michael: for him. Yeah. Category six, Simpson Saturday Night Live or Halls of Fame. This category is a measure of how famous a person is.

We include both guest appearances on SNL or the Simpsons, as well as impersonations. So on The Simpsons. He played himself on an episode called Krusty Gets Canceled, which was originally aired, uh, May 13th, 1993. He was also impersonated on The Simpsons. Also worth mentioning, this is a weirdo. There's something called Louie Live at the Simpsons.

So live with Louieie was a Fox Kids property. I didn't watch this whole thing, but there is a crossover episode where Louieie wakes up in a real life version of The Simpsons. Hey, where am I? This isn't my bed. Hey, hey, this is

Hack your Bags and join Louie Live with The Simpsons next Saturday, right here on Fox

[00:41:08] Amit: Kids, and who in the heck is Bar Simpson?

[00:41:10] Michael: Anyway, so it was a kind of cross promo between life with Louie and the Simpsons, s n l no hosting or guessing. That kind of surprised me. I would've thought at some point he might have floated through s n L.

It just seems like I would've really thought so too. Yeah, I I, I was surprised to find nothing, and I, I dug pretty deep, other than a few impersonations, his likeness was never on S N L. That leads me to the next thing. Absolutely. He was on Arsenio Hall, they became friends on the set of coming to America.

There's at least one appearance in 1992, and I saw a mention of others. Perot, I don't know. He's a billionaire. You know, have him just distribute some of that money.

I'll tell you what. Okay. Why doesn't Ross Perot. Right now take a half of all of his money if he's really serious about leading this country, and we would distribute it to the people who need it. There's no excuse that there's a homeless person and that there's a anybody laying in the street and it is not a, a thing for November.

It's a thing for tomorrow. No Hollywood Star as of 2023. Kind of a mixed story, but I think it tracks. Yeah, I, let me say I, how famous is he, Amit? You know, I

[00:42:23] Amit: think he's 10 million not on Saturday Night Live. Not invited to like be on the set. Famous. Yeah.

[00:42:29] Michael: Which I kind of love. I do too. I mean, even the baskets thing, which gets mentioned in the first line of his obituary.

That's a relatively obscure show.

[00:42:39] Amit: Yes. But lemme just say, I think it looks pretty desirable. Like I think Louie, this

[00:42:43] Michael: level of fame looks like desirable. Yeah. This

[00:42:44] Amit: level of fame. The whole arc of the 40 year, yeah. Career, the things that he was involved in dealing with very high profile stuff as well as like very low key stuff.

Yeah. I just like it. It's varied and it's not so big that it's not private. There's validation in your work. There's recognition in your work. You are loved and adored by a certain amount Yeah. Of people, but your every move is not being

[00:43:09] Michael: tracked. And he's definitely like part of the tribe of comics as well as talk show hosts.

Like his appearances on Craig Ferguson are great. His appearances on Conan are great. Like he, you know, he's always kind of there for anybody who needs him to pop on and be funny for seven minutes. Where are you at The Wild Horse Casino? Yes. Tomorrow night I'm at, uh, wise Guys in Ogden, Utah. Right. I'm gonna see the Mormons and then I'm gonna see the horses.

Do you do a lot of horse riding yourself? Well, you know, I always wanted to be a jockey

too tall. Oh

no. When I, no, when I head towards the horses, they duck. They're trying to avoid eye contact with

[00:43:56] Amit: no. You're getting enough recognition, enough validation, enough affirmation. Yeah. But you're not on the other end that like when fame looks like it

[00:44:04] Michael: sucks. Yeah. Category seven. Yes. Category seven. Over under, in this category, we look at the life expectancy for the year somebody was born to see if they beat the house odds and as a measure of grace.

So the life expectancy for a man born in the USA in 1953 was approximately 66.6 years. Louie lived to 68. It's pretty much right there for a man. As large as he is, 68, it seems like that's what I would've expected. Yeah.

[00:44:34] Amit: Is there some guilt in saying

[00:44:35] Michael: that? Yeah, of course. Cause I can see it. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, yes there is.

Of course there is, but it's also, I. He died of cancer, a lymphoma not directly related to weight or a heart attack or anything like that, although I think that there's confounding factors if you are as heavy as he was. Yeah, I don't know. I guess it's shitty to say, but it, it didn't shock me when I learned Louie Anderson had died at age 68.

Yeah, I mean, in the neither, yeah. I, I, I think it probably didn't shock a lot of people. I dunno how to put this, but I, I do think that Lou Anderson was an overate anonymous that. Probably my understanding of things means he recognized his eating as an addiction. Mm-hmm. And it's a, it's a hard one cuz you have to eat to live.

Right. It's not like, you know, drugs or other, or alcohol or other substances where abstinence is an option. Yes. The other thing that makes that different is that it's visible to the outside world. If you are struggling with drugs or alcohol, yeah. It may be evident from your behavior that you're drunk or stoned or high or whatever.

Like everybody knows if you are struggling with food, especially if you're telling people you're struggling with food. So there is something about, like, it has common features with other forms of addiction and I, I think if you participate in that program, those things have to be true. Everybody has their own crack food's.

Mine, I'm on a food plan now. You know where they give you the whole week. I'm up to next Wednesday.

You can't give a person my size the whole week's worth. Think about it. That's like a drug addict. Here's your drugs for the week. Thank you. I love you.

[00:46:36] Amit: I think we over assume as a society the guilt and the shame that somebody that is, that overweight carries. Yeah. Right. And that's why we're, we're very sensitive to it cuz we, we certainly don't want to touch or make guilt and shame any, any worse than it might be.

Right. But I actually don't think it's, it's possible that it's not nearly as bad as we project it. Yeah. Right. Like in the sky was a lot of acceptance.

[00:46:59] Michael: Sure. But I guess the other point in bringing up addiction as a part of this is, you know, power of choice and whether or not you've lost that when it comes to any behavior in this case, food.

Anyway, let's get back to this category. Do you wanna say anything more about grace?

[00:47:15] Amit: Yeah. I do wanna say, at least career wise, I love the second act. I love that he did so well in those last, you know, five, six years

[00:47:23] Michael: of his life. And it's not just baskets, although I think that's the most important thing, I think more than anything else, it was discovering a love of acting.

I heard him in interviews talk about, like, I think I could do more. I think I could really be a great actor. Yeah. And I had he lived longer, I would've liked to have seen that actually. Yeah. Um, because I, I think that there is more, I don't know, humanity, empathy and caricature inside him that can go in a lot of different directions.

Yeah. So, but I, which is

[00:47:47] Amit: graceful totally. As much as we, we wanna look for the way that, that our best days are ahead of us. Yeah. I think Louie Anderson is a shining example of how well he did in the end of his

[00:48:00] Michael: career. Yes. I agree with that. And I think that's a really important thing to point out. Yes.

Let's pause Jennifer Flowers. Jennifer Flowers

[00:48:10] Amit: is alive. The rules are simple.

[00:48:13] Michael: Dead are alive. She is 72 years old, still with us. Christ. We are so old. John Cougar Mellencamp alive, very alive, still rocking in the free world. Uh, that would be Neil Young think it's still our R O C K N in the USA. At 71 years old, Charlton Heston in his cold dead hands.

So I'm assuming he's still alive. His hands are actually dead now. We lost them in 2008. Test your knowledge, dead or alive. app.com. Category eight. This is where we start getting at the more introspective questions. The first of these categories is Man in the mirror. What do they think about their own reflection?

All I wrote was hard to see it. You seem to have something you wanna say here. I wrote down

[00:48:58] Amit: one word, which is acceptance. But is that

[00:49:01] Michael: with a period or with a question mark? There was no

[00:49:03] Amit: punctuation around

[00:49:04] Michael: it whatsoever. But is it not a question to you?

[00:49:07] Amit: It is, it is absolutely a question. But he was public about it very much.

He did all the work that he could do on it. Yeah. I don't think he looked in the mirror every day and be like, God, if I was only skinnier. You know, I don't Yeah. Think that, I think, I think he found the, the reasons that he, that he had an eating problem. Yeah. You know, he related to them. He worked them out through other ways.

He treated it like, A disease.

[00:49:36] Michael: What? Yeah. What about the thing about like it being a threat to his career? I mean, you know that, that, that he is known as the guy who will make jokes about his weight to be skinny. Does that hurt your marketability? I mean, does that hurt your ability to play any other character?

Right. I mean, again, to bring up addiction, I think this comes up with musicians who feel like I can only write when I'm drunk or high or something. Right. Authors who feel like they need to get loaded for the words to come pouring out. Yeah. You know, the who am I and how I get to who I am can become tangled up in, well, the things I do to get to who I am also come with problematic behavior.

So. I do see on some level that there is acceptance, that he has a problem. Toast with butter is a thing I can't stop doing. Right. And, and this is a threat to my health if nothing else. But does he look in the mirror with a lot of judgment and say, gosh, I wish I were skinnier? I, yeah, I, I hear your point there.

Maybe not. Is that what you're, is that what you're,

[00:50:39] Amit: that that is my point. Yeah. Yeah. I don't think he does, I don't think he, I don't think he loves it. He's not posing for himself in the mirror. Yeah. But I, but I don't think he has a bad relationship with it.

[00:50:49] Michael: Okay. And if that's what you mean by acceptance.

I see a lot of evidence that he took steps to remove self-judgment as much as possible. Yes. And if that's what man in the mirror is partly about, I agree with that. And I, I

[00:51:04] Amit: wanna, I wanna put a twist on this. What if we just say like, forget about the body

[00:51:08] Michael: and just look at the face. Just look at the face.

[00:51:10] Amit: Yeah. He got a great face, man. Yeah, he does have a great face. He really does. Like, he's, he's got a, he's got an infectious smile. Yeah. Like the gap tooth is kind, is sort of, kind of charming. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. You know, he's,

[00:51:19] Michael: there's a boyish quality for sure. He is

[00:51:21] Amit: very bright and very, he's got very great complexion.

Yeah. Like, you know, the, the hair was kind of stringy, but it's pretty good. Yeah. You know, it was, he's got a nice wave going. Yeah. Like, this is, I again, like just,

[00:51:33] Michael: maybe he's smiley too. Yeah. Genial.

[00:51:37] Amit: Yeah. You can just look at the face and be Okay. You, you know the story behind the body. You do the work that you can, but you do a certain acceptance and maybe you just look at the

[00:51:45] Michael: face.

I love that. And I'm glad he pointed it out and I agree. All right. Category nine outgoing message like man in the mirror. How do we think they felt about the sound of their own voice when they heard it on an answering machine or outgoing voicemail? And would they have used it or would they have used the deep vault setting in recording it themselves?

I think he liked it a lot. I think

[00:52:05] Amit: I liked it all. It's one of those that like, you shouldn't, like, like it's, it's, it's as nasally as as you, it's just like, it, it's kind of meant, it seems like it would be it voice that him,

[00:52:14] Michael: the roll on baskets,

[00:52:15] Amit: it's one of those voices that just works and you like it, but you shouldn't, it's like the smell of gasoline.

You're like, why do we

[00:52:21] Michael: enjoy this? Yeah. So I I, I think there's a resound and I also think that humility's absolutely there. I think he 100% would've said, you've reached the voicemail of Louie Anderson. You know, and there probably would've been a joke. Maybe it's a forward, yeah. Yeah. I bet it was.

[00:52:35] Amit: So, yeah, I, I think high marks all around for this.

[00:52:39] Michael: Let's move on. Category 10 regrets, public or private. What we really want to know is what, if anything, kept this person awake at night? I have two in public. So there is this black mailing incident, which we talked about. It also does sound like he had some regret about the Family Feud saga. It, it was a little bit of how hard he worked at it.

He talks about being a little bit cocky because that's such a natural gig for him to land. Like he seems like kind of a game show host of a family friendly show and separate and apart from what's going on in his personal life, he talks about it like, I could have worked harder and I was resting on my laurels during key moments of that opportunity and he was let go.

So I think he regrets that. Uh, and then I think also, you know, I, I do think the letter writing to all kinds of people leads to some forgiveness, but he certainly talks in the, the book I read, you know, mom, I wish you were here. I wish I'd ask you these things. There's a lot of sort of smaller level regrets of.

Making peace with people while they're still here on this earth and telling you them you love them and that sort of thing. Yeah, that and I'm

[00:53:49] Amit: glad you brought that up cuz he actually closed his sets, like especially during this very long Vegas run and that was, that's his message to the world is like, if you want to say things to your family or learn things from them, do it now.

[00:54:02] Michael: Yeah. Well this has been a lot of fun, but you know what? You can have anything you want, you can have any position you want in your life, but really the connection that I've always enjoyed is people. And that's the only thing we really have when you wipe out all the possessions, all that other crap that we just have each other when it's down to that basic thing.

So thanks a lot.

Did you have anything else in regrets? Uh, no, not really. Okay, uh, let's move on. Category 11, good dreams, bad dreams. This is not about personal perception, but rather does this person have a haunted look in the eye? Something that suggests inner turmoil, inner demons, or unresolved trauma. I had a very conclusive, I see bad dreams.

Okay, I see a darkness in the eye. As soon as I was like, let me go take a look, I saw it immediately and I think it's not surprising given the very troubled childhood he had. And you see it when he slips into characters that mean he does this a lot in his comedy. Where he'll, my

[00:55:06] Amit: dad

[00:55:06] Michael: goes, Hey kids. That's how my dad talked.

Hey, hey guys. Eh, that was a talk back there. Hey, what the hell?

[00:55:15] Amit: Yeah.

[00:55:18] Michael: Hi kids. He goes, why don't we go over to the Moose Lodge here? You want something Louie? No, I don't want anything. We shouldn't be here. We should call mom. Tell her we're coming back right now.

[00:55:30] Amit: Ah, yeah. Goddamn

[00:55:31] Michael: baby. There is a darkness That to me came through unmistakably.

Whether or not, I don't think that this is bad dreams in terms of regret and self-judgment necessarily. I just think that there's a lot of early childhood trauma in his life of coming home to a father who you never knew what you were getting. And you know, uh, um, I think he's got nothing but love for his mother, but her attention is gonna be divided between 11 children.

And he does describe her as being sort of tired by the time he came along. Yes. So I think that there are needs in him that go unmet, and I think that there is very confusing messages of what love is and how he is and is not experiencing that. I think he gets to a better place with it. But I think that that.

The stuff he acquired early on in life. I absolutely see bad dreams.

[00:56:23] Amit: So I, I can latch onto your point with also like the abusive father. Yeah. You know, who was alcoholic and he said didn't hit him, but always reminded them that he had a gun. Right. Like he's telling these like little children. Yeah. So all that, just awful, terrible, you know, he was bullied a lot.

Yeah. For his weight. He was teased a lot. He airs that out a lot on stage. Yeah. But I don't see it nearly as much as you do. Mm. I actually see some clarity there and I see a guy that's done so much work and so much airing of his past, his demons, his insecurities, that. I honestly, truly think he sleeps well.

I see a guy that can bring out joy, can have happiness despite all of this backstory or all of these societal biases. Yeah. And I see

[00:57:08] Michael: clarity. I, I agree with that in some ways. Um, but when I look in the eyes and at just that test, when I look in the eyes, I do see pain. Yeah, I see pain. And it's that simple.

It's interesting. I don't, it's, it's so unmistakable to me.

[00:57:24] Amit: Wow. Disagree. I saw clarity.

[00:57:27] Michael: All right, next category, category 12, coffee cocktail, cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. This may be a question of what drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them We are most curious about.

We go first. All right. Uh, I want cannabis. Okay. Um, and it's pretty simple. I don't have a whole lot of questions here. I don't need to go too deep. I feel like. We'll go deep if he wants to go deep. And I'd certainly like to have honest conversations about him. I mean, some of the, let's call it unconscious bias that I think I bring to the table when it comes to, you know, my attitude that I maybe don't recognize in terms of how I talk to people and how I see and don't see people who are obese and overweight.

I'd love to hash that out with him because I think he'd be very honest. But mostly I just want to hang, I, I want the cannabis because I think he's a fantastic storyteller. Yeah. Like, and I mean, he paces things out. He makes the scenes really real. He's got that just relatable quality that I think I just hang out and laugh and enjoy and, and these don't even have to be funny stories.

I mean, I did hear one story about him being at a gambling in a card game or something where he went down 80,000 and he owed some bookie 80,000 and he drives to Vegas and manages to make it all back in like one marathon run. And the way he tells the story is great. I go, if I win this, I'll have 110,000 Right.

I split 'em. I win both of them, right. But I don't blackjack, but I win 'em both. So I got 110,000, I think it's like six in the morning. I got a 7:00 AM flight cuz I have to shoot a commercial for seven 11.

I just think he's probably full of things like that. So I think he's probably got great stories. I want to hear about him, you know, and then probably a joint. I like to just pass a joint back and forth. What about

[00:59:25] Amit: you? I, I do see the storytelling. I see a guy that, that actually can make me laugh. Yeah. Uh, and I do want that, but I'm landing on coffee.

And this is going back to, to what you say very often is that when you see a certain level of genius, you know, you wanna pick at the brain. And I kind of see that not in necessarily his art, but in his, his ability to cope and, and let go of hangups. Yeah. And that's the conversation I think I want to have with Lou Anderson over some coffee.

Okay. I applaud this guy. Like he really has a good relationship with the hangups. Yeah. And, uh, I just wanna

[01:00:00] Michael: feed off a little bit of that and humanity plus comedy. I, I want to hang out with that. Oh, it's the best. You know, that's, that's, that's what it's all about. Final category. The VanDerBeek named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life.

We've arrived on it. Do you want Louie Anderson's life? Before our conversation, I thought I was gonna be fighting an uphill battle because I don't think I had fully recognized and internalized and been impressed with the amount of work that I think he's done both in his comedy, in his letter writing, in his relationships.

All of these are tools that are not just nice add-ons. I feel like they're fundamental and I feel like the pursuit of those comes with such integrity and such. I don't know, richness and humanity that I'm very, I'm, I'm, I'm so much more impressed with him than I expected to be, but at the same time as you and I always say, Admiration and desirability are two different things.

Mm-hmm. So I've certainly grown in my admiration for him, in my love for him, and I have unquestionably learned a lot and have even identified things that are very practical that I plan on bringing into my life, my relationship to my own tears and crying. I think I want to think about letter writing and you know, there's other stuff that's come up along the way that where I feel like this is really worth thinking about in terms of how all of us deal with our own pain and trauma.

Earlier when you and I were talking about does his life look lonely, we both said no. I don't know. I don't know actually. I think that's a really hard question. How lonely was this guy? I see a lot that I admire to, that he used to deal with his loneliness and I feel like he does have community and he does have real relationships and connection with, with people.

You know what actually gives me the biggest pause here? I hate Vegas. I really hate Las Vegas. I'm sorry. The surrounding area is beautiful. That town bums me the fuck out. And there is something about the having to

[01:02:19] Amit: rule under casino every night for 20 years. Yeah.

[01:02:23] Michael: There's something very lonely to me about Vegas.

Vegas may be the deal breaker for me. Yeah, and it goes in part with some suspicions that I have about maybe he was lonelier than we've been talking about so far in this conversation. So no, I don't want your life. Louie Anderson. You.

[01:02:47] Amit: I mean, like I said, I, I love the career. I love the level of fame. I love the arc.

I love the how well he did at the end. I like the guy, but we're separating that as we do in this category. Loneliness. I'm gonna go back to that again. I, I don't think he is like, I, I really don't think he is, but it's not the flavor of non loneliness that I think I want. And just the, the big question marks that we had around love and marriage.

Yeah. I think that's where my biggest pause is. Yeah. And it's a weird thing to say is that I just, I just don't see the intimacy, and I'm not necessarily talking about like romantic physical intimacy. Yeah. Intimacy. Yeah. I'm just talking about, you know, intimate relationships. Yeah. And a weird thing to say from a guy that is self-chosen to be single still at age 45, right.

From me. But I just don't, I. The intimacy seems to be the thing missing. And it's a little difficult to put into words because I'm not equating that to the fact that he's not married necessarily. I am somewhat saying that his sexuality or how he related to romantic love could not be public, or he was not comfortable talking about it, or it's just unknown.

Yeah. That is part of it, but I think it's the overall lack of personal intimacy or the no evidence of it. Yeah. And maybe it was there. Yeah. And I hope it was. Yeah. But based on everything that we can accumulate that's somewhat publicly available and through all avenues of research, I don't see it. And that's a deal breaker for me.

[01:04:18] Michael: So you're a No,

[01:04:21] Amit: I'm afraid I'm a no. Yeah. Not a huge, no. Yeah, not a huge, no. Yeah. I'm a 40%. No.

[01:04:27] Michael: Okay. We both, no, we both, no.

[01:04:33] Amit: Okay, Michael Osborne, you are no longer Michael Osborne. You are now Louie Anderson. Uh, you have died. You are at the pearly gates in front of you as a man called St. Peter, who is the proxy for all things afterlife.

You have an opportunity to make your pitch. So what is the one contribution that you have made to this world where it is better than you

[01:04:56] Michael: found it? St. Peter Louie here. I had a very painful life in a lot of ways, but like so many before me, I tried to turn my trauma into a gift, into something that I could give back.

And in doing that, through comedy and through a lot of public struggle, I think I might have offered a different model for what it means to be a man, what it means to be a proud man. A vulnerable man, but a man whose life was filled with joy and friendship and connection. Despite all the pain. I think we need those examples, and I tried to be as vulnerable as I could possibly be so that everybody felt like they belonged for that.

I hope you let me in

before you leave Famous and Gravy listeners, if you are interested in participating in our opening quiz where we reveal the dead celebrity, then please send us an email. You can reach us at hello@famousenggravy.com. Recordings usually take less than five minutes and we love hearing from you. Otherwise, thank you for listening to this episode.

If you're enjoying our show and you don't feel like emailing us, please tell your friends about us. You can find us on Twitter. Our handle is at Famous and Gravy. We also have a newsletter, which you can sign up for on our website, famous eng gravy.com. Famous and Gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne.

This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss, original theme music by Kevin Strang. Thank you again for listening. See you next time.