054 Secret Chord transcript (Leonard Cohen)

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[00:00:00] Amit: This is Famous Gravy, the show where we study famous lives for the secret sauce to a satisfying life. Now for the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

[00:00:11] Michael: This person died 2016, age 82. He was an unlikely and reluctant pop star, if in fact he ever was one. Okay, reluctant.

[00:00:23] Friend: That's it? That's it. Someone who was reluctantly maybe famous and died?

Not Jesus.

[00:00:30] Michael: After a sojourn in London, he ended up living in a house on the Greek island of Hydra, where he wrote a pair of novels.

[00:00:39] Friend: Lee Iacocca.

[00:00:41] Michael: Oh, not Lee Iacocca, but I love that guess. He was 33 when his first record was released in 1967.

[00:00:49] Friend: Why did I think we were talking about an author? Did you say

writing?

[00:00:52] Michael: I did.

[00:00:53] Friend: I know Prince died in 2016, but he was definitely not in his 80s.

[00:00:57] Michael: Not Prince. Around 1994, he abandoned his music career and moved to Mount Baldy Monastery. where he was ordained a Buddhist monk.

[00:01:08] Friend: I think Cat Stevens is still with us.

[00:01:10] Michael: Ah, great guess. Not Cat Stevens. In the early 1970s, his record company concocted an advertising campaign where they called him, quote, the master of erotic despair.

[00:01:23] Friend: Oh, good lord. Tom Jones?

[00:01:25] Michael: Not Tom Jones. His best known song is a majestic, meditative ballad infused with both religiosity and earthiness. Hallelujah.

[00:01:36] Friend: Oh, Leonard Cohen? Leonard Cohen? Was it Leonard Cohen? Leonard Cohen.

[00:01:40] Michael: Today's Dead Celebrity is Leonard Cohen.

[00:01:44] Archival: Now listen, if you just nailed, you know, the lyric of the future to the church door, it'd be a very dismal little document, but... This lyric is married to a hot little dance track, and the dance track is married to a sinister little funny lyric, but the lyric dissolves into the music, and the music dissolves into the lyric, invigoration.

It's a kind of psychic refreshment.

[00:02:18] Michael: Welcome to Famous Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

[00:02:21] Amit: And my name is Amit Kapoor.

[00:02:22] Michael: And on this show, we believe that the best years might lie ahead. So we choose a celebrity who died in the last 10 years and review their quality of life. We go through a series of categories to figure out the things in life that we would actually desire and ultimately answer a big question.

Would I want that life? Today, Leonard Cohen died 2016, age 82. So today we are also joined by Christian Swain. Christian, hello, and thank you for coming in, uh, to help us out. Michael, Amit, thanks for having me. So, just to give a little backstory here on Christian, Christian is the CEO and creator of the Pantheon Podcast Network, and Famous Gravy is now a part of Pantheon.

Pantheon started as a music podcast network, and much like MTV and Rolling Stone, they are now moving into pop culture more broadly. When these guys heard about Famous Gravy, they invited us to join as our show is a move in that direction. Christian, Amit and I are proud to be part of Pantheon. Thank you for inviting us in.

Well, first of

[00:03:26] Christian: all, we're really excited about having you guys join, uh, uh, the network. And to your point, yeah, we, uh, uh, that's a great encapsulation, uh, through music, it's a open door to, uh, the rest of culture. It's all part of the human experience and expression. And so, you know, we did launch a show last year called Basic, uh, which was about the history of basic cable television, and that got us thinking about adding shows around that.

So like, uh, Famous and Great View, we've got a couple other shows that will, um, build that tent pole, uh, for us out there. So we'd love having you guys part of this.

[00:04:00] Michael: Awesome. Thank you. We're excited about the collaboration. And the other reason we've invited Christian on is that, among other things, in addition to Pantheon, you're the host of Rock and Roll Archaeology, a podcast that is a narrative show.

which is a deep dive into rock and roll history. And since Leonard Cohen occupies kind of a unique position in music history, we figured you'd be an excellent person to help us weigh in on the first line of Leonard Cohen's obituary as written by the New York times.

[00:04:27] Christian: Yeah. An unusual, uh, member of the rock and roll hall of fame.

Yeah.

[00:04:32] Amit: Hallelujah,

[00:04:32] Michael: let's get to it. Alright, category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Leonard Cohen, the Canadian poet and novelist, who abandoned a promising literary career to become one of the foremost songwriters of the contemporary era, died on Monday at his home in Los Angeles. He was 82.

Sounds like we have a Leonard

[00:04:55] Amit: Cohen fan on our hands in the obituary, Ryder. Why,

[00:04:59] Michael: what's

[00:04:59] Amit: making you say that? Foremost songwriter?

[00:05:02] Michael: Okay. Oh, come on. I'm going to let you get out some thoughts. I've got strong opinions

[00:05:06] Amit: here. Okay, so let me just take that. I mean, foremost songwriters of whatever they said, the 20th century?

Yeah, contemporary era. Come on. in a niche, in amongst a certain category, but... You're thrown around foremost. I think you're a

[00:05:21] Michael: fan. Okay. Christian, your reaction. Um, I,

[00:05:25] Amit: I think this is an

[00:05:26] Christian: artist that grows over time. If you look at him from a particular era, maybe not so weighty, but if you look at the entire songbook, there is a lot more there than one would think.

Uh, it's worth scratching that surface. You know, the other thing I might say is that there's not many people that actually get. A standard in the American Song book, and I think all three of us would agree that Hallelujah is a standard in the American Song book. It will be forever, no question. Sure, yeah.

Uh, a 300 plus cover versions done by everybody under the sun, to be honest with you. For me, that's my entry point to Leonard Cohen. It's Jeff Buckley hearing Hallelujah, right? Yes. First, just one time and immediately tears fell in love with the song immediately. That also doesn't happen.

[00:06:15] Michael: I agree with all of that.

I absolutely hate this first line of the obituary. I am, I am as angry as I was when, uh, we read the Kenny Rogers, uh, first line of the opening. Wow. He doesn't tell me anything. Leonard Cohen, the Canadian poet and novelist. Yeah, okay, kind of, who abandoned a promising literary career to become one of the foremost songwriters.

This is not what we know him for. No, correct. Like, there's no, there's no what you know him for in here. I mean, if you go on and read the rest of the obituary, it is a compelling read, as is every biography and summation of Leonard Cohen's life. But, I also think, first of all, a lot of people don't know him.

You know, songwriter, I think, is the right... Like, label for who he is and what he is. And I'm not so mad at the references to him being a poet and a novelist, but I feel like you gotta figure out a way to mention Hallelujah in here. Totally. That song is next level famous. As you mentioned, Christian, 300 different people have covered it.

Dylan, John Cale, Buckley, Bono. I mean, it goes on and on in terms of, but Justin Timberlake's on that. Oh, it shows up in like

[00:07:24] Christian: every third Hollywood

[00:07:25] Michael: production. Uh, you know, totally. I mean, you know, and, and every other episode of American Idol, how can you not call attention to that? I mean, you know, it tells me there's a storied interesting life, which we're going to get into, but I don't think this does him justice.

And I don't think it gets that like news of his death across. Christian, how would you describe him to somebody who doesn't know him? I

[00:07:48] Christian: personally would have left the literary career off to start with because it's sort of promising, but it runs into some problems pretty quickly in his 20s, mostly due to the advent of the depression coming on, which we'll talk about.

I'm sure. So I might have left that part out. And focused more on the fact that he was a contemporary songwriter to somebody like Dylan or Gordon Lightfoot and people like that. I mean, comes up about that time. I also find it really interesting that he doesn't, uh, release his first album until he's 33, highly, highly unusual.

I can only think of one other artist that fits in that category. And that's bill withers, which is a project that I'm working on right now. But, uh, he's like this undiscovered. Vein that hallelujah is like that little gold nugget. That's just sticking up that you

[00:08:43] Amit: dig into

[00:08:43] Michael: and then all of a sudden you

[00:08:44] Christian: start digging and you're going oh my god, this guy

[00:08:48] Michael: Super deep.

I think that's really important because there is like an impassioned devoted fan base right underneath the surface Who I don't think like rejects hallelujah as the entry point to that music But there is so much more that maybe you don't know about Let me add one thing

[00:09:05] Christian: that I, I would put in there is that he's more inspirational to other artists.

[00:09:12] Amit: I

[00:09:12] Christian: think that would have been something that I'd put in the

[00:09:15] Michael: opus. A hundred percent. He is a singer songwriter, singer songwriter like John Prine. Yeah, John Prine's a great example. Yeah. Yeah. Amit, um, well, here's the other thing that's driving me crazy. I'm going to throw this back to you, Amit. There's like very little.

Adjectives here, you know, there's nothing like romantic or heartfelt

[00:09:33] Amit: or... And that's what this guy was so about. I mean, he's the original emo. My God!

[00:09:40] Michael: Yeah, he deserves it. There's nothing about that that is descriptive of his character or of his unique gifts as a creative, as an artist. Yes. And so I, I, yeah, I read this and I was... Pissed off, man. I'm infuriated. Yeah, I,

[00:09:54] Amit: I mean, I, I see that. You're making me angry now. The fury in your eyes.

[00:09:58] Michael: All right, I'm ready to give my score.

I know you are. I'm going three. Three! I thought I was going to do two. Is this an all time low? I think I might have given Kenny Rogers a three too. Okay, but this is a three man. They could have done so much more. He's also 82 They must have known he was gonna die pretty soon. Like there was time to work on this and do better He's actually been

[00:10:18] Christian: talking about it with the release of his album that had only come out a month before He was like i'm ready to die.

I'm dying

[00:10:26] Michael: soon Exactly. You saw what happened to bowie earlier this year. I'm on my way. Yeah I'm, just letting you know. Yeah, so And it's the perfect

[00:10:35] Christian: album to die with.

[00:10:37] Michael: Yeah, that's right.

[00:10:38] Amit: I will, I will give it one better. I'll give it a four. Okay. I like that they led with Canadian. There's there's everything that's Canadian about Leonard Cohen.

And so I'm adding a point back for that same issues you have with the rest. Yeah.

[00:10:50] Michael: Christian, your score? I'm

[00:10:52] Christian: torn between the three and the four. I just have to be a fair man and say a

[00:10:58] Michael: four. Okay, you guys are a little bit more generous than I am. I mean, again, we're influenced

[00:11:03] Amit: by the Canadian generosity.

Yeah,

[00:11:04] Michael: no, that's right. They're so friendly up there. All right, three, three, and four. Uh, let's move on. Category two, Five Things I Love About You. This is where Amit and Christian and I are gonna come up with five things we love about this person, five reasons we're talking about them in the first place.

Christian, before you leave us, would you like to contribute a thing you love about Leonard Cohen that we can, uh, integrate into our five things we love for category two? There's quite

[00:11:29] Christian: a lot to love about Leonard Cohen. And like I said, uh, it's a vein that's worthy of anybody diving into. You will not be disappointed.

To me, the standout was the ability to really dive into this disease. His depression and builds this amazing work of art through it and around it and about it. That's pretty extraordinary. So many folks just get overwhelmed by the disease and are unable to get out of bed. You know, and here's a guy who's working songs at the top of the game and you can see that in the work that he did himself, you know, five years of Buddhist monastery.

This is a man who, uh, took it serious and tried to do something about it as opposed to just get into it. And that's, that was a big

[00:12:26] Michael: takeaway for me. In the lead up to this episode, I was having a conversation with this gal I met at the swimming pool, and she mentioned, she's like, Have you heard of this book, Bittersweet, by Susan Cain?

Do you know this lady? Uh, yeah, she wrote, um, Quiet. Quiet, yes. Yeah, she's given a couple TED Talks, and she's like, Leonard Cohen comes up throughout the book, for exactly the point that you are pointing to. His ability to turn, like, darkness and, I don't know, depression and, and the demons into a kind of, you know, creative output.

There is this, like, thin veil between agony and ecstasy that is, like, right where Leonard Cohen is situated. I mean, you hear his voice and his music and, I mean, it goes right to your heart, right? It's sort of unmistakable. And you can feel like both pain and release simultaneously.

[00:13:39] Amit: It,

[00:13:42] Michael: that's

[00:13:42] Christian: what he was known for in his songwriting was, uh, sex, spirituality, and violence. Which I think is in the New York Times op ed down below. Not

[00:13:49] Michael: in the first line! Not in the first line! Maybe they should have led with that, huh? Now you have my attention, goddamit. All right! Well, Christian, I think that's an excellent thing, one, to contribute to our Five Things We Love About You.

Ooh, glad that could help. Thank you again for making time to join us on this, and we'll link to Rock and Roll Archaeology and everything else in the show notes, and thanks again for inviting us into Pantheon, man. Oh, great show. We're really excited to be part of this community. Very

[00:14:12] Christian: excited to have you.

The pleasure is

[00:14:14] Michael: all ours. Rock and Roll. Love it, man. I get it. All right. Amit. I have something I'm chomping at the bit to offer for thing number two. Ben, I,

[00:14:23] Amit: by all means,

[00:14:24] Michael: you have my permission. I think you're gonna like this. Do you know who Jonathan Goldsmith is? Uh, the most interesting man in the world?

I think Leonard Cohen is my number one nominee for the Jonathan Goldsmith most interesting man in the world award. He is the life of parties he has never attended. His blood smells like cologne. He is the most interesting man.

[00:14:49] Amit: You're so happy that you came up with the title. I am.

[00:14:52] Michael: This is why I was so frustrated with the first line of the op ed.

It didn't begin to get into the intrigue of this man. He's the most interesting man I've ever read about, or heard. Okay. No way I can do it justice. No way we're gonna be able to do it justice in this episode. But I've chosen a couple of key moments to highlight this. Leonard Cohen happened to be in Cuba on the day of the Bay of the Pigs invasion.

He barely got on an airplane and got out of there. He jammed with Jimi Hendrix and had a brief love affair with Janis Joplin, Joni Mitchell, and we'll get into his love life later, but it is storied and fascinating. This is one of my favorite stories. Much like Johnny Cash played prisons, Cohen liked playing mental hospitals.

There's a story about him playing one in Napa. He's with Michelle Phillips, who's from the Mamas and the Papas, who had just married Dennis Hopper. Leonard Cohen and Dennis Hopper take acid on the way up to the mental hospital. It kicks in right when they pull up. Dennis Hopper gets out of the limo, sees a bunch of people, like, mental health patients and freaks out, Dennis Hopper goes and hides in the limo while Leonard Cohen plays to the mental health patients in Wine Country.

This is somewhere in the 60s. There's this crazy story about Cohen getting coffee with Dylan in the mid 80s where Dylan says you are the number one songwriter of all time. Cohen happened to attend the 1992 Oscars, where Unforgiven won with Rebecca Desmorais, but he did not want to be there at all. He was writing The Future, one of his albums, in 1992, and watching the LA riots right outside his window.

Oh my God, this man's journey is insane. He is the most interesting man in the world. Okay. This is the tip of the iceberg. All the stories about Cohen, we're not going to be able to get in there, but the way he's a journeyman, not just like cavorting with celebrities, but actually. interesting places at apex moments in time.

It's sort of amazing that he's sort of just lurking behind the scenes for, I don't know, five decades. Six decades.

[00:16:48] Amit: Yes. Lurking behind, but so in it. So in it as well. Okay, great, I'll take it. Most interesting man in the world. I can't wait to see how that plays out in the end. Alright. Thing number three. Uh, thing number three, freedom of religion.

So we've hinted at it, uh, already. He's perhaps best known for living as a monk in a monastery for five years and actually becoming it an ordained monk. Yes. Uh, his last name is Cohen. He is

[00:17:11] Michael: of Jewish

[00:17:12] Amit: descent, but also Cohen is like of a priestly nature, right? Yes. So, uh, but he remained Jewish throughout his life as well, but he had what?

He's done is basically, I think Judaism is, was his grounding throughout his life, but he extracted what he wanted to from every religion. Yes. So not only becoming a monk, he was a big fan and reader of Jesus. He dabbled in Scientology and it seems like he picked and chose what works for him while staying grounded in his own singular one.

And I think that's a beautiful way to go through it.

[00:17:45] Michael: Freedom of religion, completely agree. This idea of take what you love and leave the rest behind, when it comes to spirituality and when it comes to exploration of the origins of the universe and the insides of the soul and God or whatever, you know, you reference the Buddhist.

Monastery. I mean, he had been going up there for years, but in the 1994 or so, 1995 maybe, he shaves his head and, like, commits to being an ordained monk. Yes, for five

[00:18:14] Amit: years. For five years he was in service to his, his

[00:18:18] Michael: mentor. So, I didn't mention that in the Jonathan Goldsmith award, but like, isn't that, isn't that something that you kind of fantasize about?

Like, maybe I'll get to a point where I just shave my head and join a monastery. I was thinking about it in the shower this morning. Right, right. I'm like, no, but who does it? You know, who does it? He actually made good on that. Yeah. Um, and then, uh, the book I read about him, he, when he leaves the monastery, he actually goes from Zen Buddhism to core Hinduism.

And it's after that, that he says his depression is lifted. So, I mean, this is a man who was, like, searching for it out of, I think, desperation, which we'll get into. Yeah. But then also kind of finds a solution, in a way, and he doesn't commit to being a Hindu, he retains his Jewish faith. But it is only through freedom of religion, as you put it, incorporating tools and pursuing from as many angles as possible, that he ultimately finds relief.

So it's not just freedom of religion, but it's also, like, Release, you

[00:19:12] Amit: know, and, and I think the grounding is critical here. And I want that to be a key part of the point is it's not just searching around and picking what's choosing. He remained grounded in the faith that he was born to, like read even scriptures throughout, like in concerts, even throughout his last years.

Yeah, so there was a grounding, but there was a searching beyond. And I think that's a very interesting combo that we haven't come across very often.

[00:19:33] Michael: It also like helps understand the song Hallelujah. Because Hallelujah is in some ways, I mean, it feels like borderline religious, but it also feels available to everybody.

Yep. You know what I mean? And it's incredible that it's played both at weddings and funerals, right? Yes. That it's used in both a moment of sorrow and a moment of triumph. Yeah. Um, there are very few songs you could point to in the world that Qualify for those two

[00:20:00] Amit: circumstances. The only parallel I can think of is the actual idea of tears.

Yeah. The only thing that exists in sadness and in joy.

[00:20:31] Michael: Okay, number four? Yep. One word. Patience. There is a whole backstory to the song Hallelujah. There's this famous scene where, uh, he is meeting Dylan in Paris. I referenced this and he tells Dylan, I really like your song, uh, I and I and how long did it take you to write? Dylan said 15 minutes and Dylan says, Leonard, how long did it take you to write Hallelujah?

I really like that song. Leonard says two years. It was actually five years. Five years to write a song. I mean, this is the Malcolm Gladwell revisionist history thing. He does a whole episode about how some art emerges out of bursts of inspiration, and some is like tedious perfectionist, keep working on it, keep working on it.

Leonard Cohen is in that second category. He is working on it and working on it for forever. But it's not just patience in his art and in his music, it is also patience with relationships and patience with the moment with whoever he's with, that there is a ability to exist in the moment and let things unfold as they will without forcing or pushing or Urging anything along and patience is something I absolutely struggle with.

I'm a deeply impatient man and when I tell myself, hey, be more patient, I don't even know what those instructions mean exactly. Am I trying to say have a different emotion or am I trying to say surrender more to the moment? And I think that's the ladder that I'm talking about here is the thing I love about Leonard Cohen.

I think he surrenders to the moment. I see that as patience. I don't know if that's how it felt for him, but I love it and I desire it. So that's my thing number four.

[00:22:08] Amit: Nice. Okay, I guess I'm rounding it out with number five. I'll end on an easy one. Counterculture in a suit. Uh, so Leonard Cohen was a suit wearer throughout his, his entire life.

Also one of the few people that could pull off a fedora. I think

[00:22:22] Michael: that has to do with his

[00:22:22] Amit: dad, by the way. That is, that is my point exactly. So, you know, he's associated with poetry and later he's very much a countercultural. artist. Mm hmm. Right? But even as people are going through the 60s and 70s, there are certain wardrobes you may associate with that and with a lot of the acts that you even talked about and the people that he associated himself with.

Yeah. But he always, was always seen and always performed in a suit. And this was an ode to his father. This was him not trying to be an early version of a hipster. It was his father who owned a clothing store, died when he was nine. And the man sold formal wear. Yeah. And so he decided to be a suit wearer for the rest of his life.

Yeah. And so I like that path. And that he stuck to that remembrance rather than following the trends.

[00:23:05] Michael: Is this desirable? Do you wish you, like, put on a suit every day? I mean, I'm

[00:23:09] Amit: still fucking dabbling around. Look at what's on my hands. Yeah, no, I mean...

[00:23:12] Michael: I can't figure it out. I like the rings. Yeah, I'm also wearing a pink t shirt.

You know, this has come up before on the show. I have massive insecurities about my wardrobe. I kind of like the, you know what, I'm going to put on a suit and look good today. And Leonard Cohen is drawn to suits. I mean, he's got a real good sense of style. Very stylish man. And as you mentioned, the fedora is sort of unmistakable.

It's very Leonard Cohen. Yeah. So I love the reason

[00:23:35] Amit: for it. I like the against the grain part of it.

[00:23:38] Michael: Okay. Let's recap. So thing number one, Christian said, working through depression. Thing number two, most interesting man in the world, vis a vis Jonathan Goldsmith. Number three, freedom of religion. Such a good one.

Number four, I said patience. And number five,

[00:23:51] Amit: counterculture in a suit.

[00:23:53] Michael: Love it. Okay, category three, Malkovich, Malkovich. This category is named after the movie Being John Malkovich, in which people can take a portal into John Malkovich's mind, and they can have a front row seat to his experiences. So, I found this choice of Malkovich really, really hard, because he's got such an unbelievably interesting life.

I came across this podcast called Honesty, where they interviewed an author who had written a book called Who By Fire? Why Leonard Cohen Ran Toward War. So, in 1973, he is living on this island in Greece, and the Yom Kippur War breaks out in Israel. As you mentioned in the opening, Leonard Cohen is Jewish, and he had always felt that he calls Israel his myth home.

Now, The Yom Kippur War in 1973 was an existential moment for Israel. Leonard Cohen decides he wants to go be on the front lines. So he, and, and the way they described this, I thought this was really good. This is not like Bob Hope on some, you know, USO tour, right? I saw that contrast, yes. Yeah, it's not like he's, you know, 50 miles behind the front lines.

He is in the desert with the soldiers. And he is also not singing songs of, like, Rally the troops. He's singing fricking Leonard Cohen's songs that are filled with like emotion and sorrow. You know, this is kind of an all but forgotten chapter in Leonard Leonard Cohen's life. But these books are discovered, his journals are discovered.

He does come out of that writing a song called Love Lover Lover, which sounds like a song about love, but the author makes the case. This is actually inspired kind of by like the desperation of being on the front lines. He said, I.

You can use it for a weapon, make some woman smile. Lover,

lover, lover, lover.

He didn't make a whole lot of fanfare around this. He didn't bring cameras. He didn't really tell anybody other than his, uh, partner at the time. And, and by the way, he had a baby. His first child was born, his son. And something Pulls him towards war. Why do you need to see and experience war and feel, you know, play music for men who may be about to die?

Many of them do and see blood, guts, destruction, all of it. Before the Yom Kippur War, he was thinking about giving up music. And then afterwards he comes out and has this sort of renewed love for it. Something mysterious happens in this moment. And I don't understand it. Honestly have a hard time understanding Leonard Cohen, but I wonder how that comes into focus and clarity for him because he does describe it as a place Where he finds focus and clarity and, and, and clearness of vision in terms of what he wants to do creatively.

So I'm curious about that and that's my Malkovich moment. Okay. Good one. I, I'll offer

[00:26:58] Amit: a theory as I think a guy like him that's experienced at that point a lot of depression, a lot of darkness, wanted to feel something. Yeah. And so he goes to where there is perhaps the,

[00:27:10] Michael: um, There's an immediacy there. Yeah.

I think, you know, I think that there is a, there, everything's in the present there. And I think that part of what You know, the disease of depression, I was really glad Christian used the phrase disease of depression. I think is about, is, is, um, you know, struggles with the presence. Correct. Struggles

[00:27:29] Amit: with the present moment.

I think proximity to life and death also is, I think he wanted to just, just be present in

[00:27:36] Michael: that. And witness that. Yeah, I think that sounds right.

[00:27:39] Amit: And kind of just back up a few steps from his mind and, and realize that, uh, duality of, of existence.

[00:27:45] Michael: Yeah. I like your theory, and I think it goes some distance in terms of explaining what that's about, but there's more there that I, that's mysterious to me.

Totally. All right, what do you

[00:27:55] Amit: got? Okay, so 2009, um, there's so much to this story, so I think we'll get into this in net worth, but he essentially went more or less broke a few years prior. Yeah. So he has to go back on tour, he hasn't toured I think in 17 years. Uh, and he's on this world tour which went from 2008 to 2010, approximately.

But 2009 was the big touring year. A big component of this tour is being in Europe. So, on September 18th, 2009, he plays a concert in Valencia, Spain. His second to last concert in Europe of that leg. And while singing Bird on a Wire, he faints on stage. Yeah. And collapses on stage. The show ends. Uh, the media all reports that Leonard Cohen collapses on stage.

Some sort of stomach illness, could be food poisoning. Who knows? The man is 74 years old. They're speculating this is the end of the tour, this is possibly the end of Leonard Cohen even touring. Yeah. He recovers, has the resilience to go back and close out the tour and play his final show in Barcelona three days later, September 21st, 2009, which is also his 75th birthday.

And he shows up to the concert, and we'll link some YouTube footage to this, walks on stage to the crowd singing Happy Birthday to him.

In addition to that, in this sea of a crowd, There are several hundred people holding green candles, thin green candles. I saw that. I saw that image. No, I don't,

[00:29:39] Michael: I wondered about that because I saw that picture. This is

[00:29:41] Amit: a reference to a song Leonard Cohen had called, One of Us Can Not Be Wrong. The lyric is, I lit a thin green candle.

to make you jealous of me. We can go into the backstory of that song, but I, I don't even think that's necessary. I think that lyric is good enough. So these hundreds of peoples are lighting green candles, singing happy birthday to Leonard Cohen who nearly died and had to end his career three days prior.

They're holding up a symbol that says, I admire you. Here's a man who built a career off 75 years, dark melancholy depression, staging his comeback within a comeback. I want to know, did he recognize how much he was admired?

[00:30:21] Michael: I gotta say, the last ten years of his life are about as good as it gets. Like, there is this triumphant tour and, like, final celebration of who he is, as well as, you know, kind of mentioned this earlier, his darkness and depression lifting after years in the monastery and then a few trips to India.

I believe he did. I believe he's able to take those lessons to heart. What an unbelievably beautiful moment,

[00:30:49] Amit: Amit. Yeah, he didn't comment specifically on it, but members of his band said they all wept.

[00:30:55] Michael: I'm about to weep, man. I'm about to weep. That is beautiful. That is beautiful. Let's take a break. Hey, Famous and Gravy listeners, Michael Osborne here.

I have a podcast I want to tell you about. This one is near and dear to my heart. It's called Sound Judgment, and it's all about what it takes to become a beloved podcast host. Amit and I were actually interviewed for Sound Judgment. The episode is called How to Make Serious Topics Fun. We were thrilled to be part of this show because the whole podcast is excellent.

Elaine Appleton Grant goes behind the scenes with today's great podcast hosts to dissect episodes and show how creators make audio storytelling magic. The show is targeted towards podcast creators, but it's a great behind the scenes look. And I think if you like famous and gravy or really if you love podcasts overall, I really recommend sound judgment.

Part of what makes it so special is that, well, first of all, it's a great place to find new shows. But second, it's just a fun behind the scenes exploration of what makes great audio storytelling work. So Amit and I's episode is definitely worth checking out. I really recommend you check out the whole back catalog.

Very thoughtful conversations. I think you'll enjoy it. We'll link to it in the show notes. Sound judgment. Check it out. Okay, category four, love and marriage. How many marriages? Also, how many kids? And is there anything public about these relationships? Okay, this one's fun. Most interesting man in the world.

Yeah, no marriages. Yes. Not one. Came very close a few times. He was engaged to Rebecca Desmonais. Oh, they did get engaged. I didn't realize that until I read the biography. Of the hand that rocks the cradle. That's correct. Well, I knew her more from Risky Business.

[00:32:40] Amit: I just remember she was hot when we were Yeah, oh my god, yes.

We were young and

[00:32:44] Michael: she was beautiful. I mean, yes, absolutely. And, uh, so, okay. The other woman I think there's a lot to talk about here, but he did have a kind of common law arrangement with Suzanne Elrod This is not the same Suzanne as his other another famous song of his Suzanne. Um But they had two children.

I mentioned this earlier They're both born in the 70s and he had three grandkids. It also does sound like he Continued to be involved in their, and he was absolutely involved in their lives. I mean, his son is, becomes his producer later. Uh, and is also a musician in his own right. I think he's also taking care of Suzanne as well.

Or is supporting her financially. In addition to the two kids. And he's, he does have three grandchildren. It is worth saying that he is a, like, famous ladies man. We mentioned Janis Joplin, Joni Mitchell, Rebecca Desmarnais. There are many other romantic affairs throughout the years. Correct. If these are the famous

[00:33:39] Amit: ones,

[00:33:40] Michael: Lord knows.

Yeah, I mean, there's another kind of love of his life Marianne described. This is before he takes the turn towards music. In the early 60s, he buys a house on a Greek island of Hydra. That's where he meets Marianne and her young son. And. Did you come across this, like, email exchange that he had with her at the end?

Like, she's about Oh, this is worth referencing. Marianne is described as a muse, and he gets word shortly before her death that she's nearing the end, and he sends her a note, says, Well, Mar and he hadn't seen her in five years, Well, Marianne, it's come to this when we are really so old and our bodies are falling apart and I think I will follow you very soon.

Know that I am so close behind you that if you stretch out your hand, I think you can reach mine. This is 50 years after their relationship. This is more like 60 years after their relationship and they haven't seen each other. And the way Marianne's friend reads this to her. She smiles and sets it aside and dies like a day later.

One thing that's... crazy remarkable about Leonard Cohen's love life is that, almost without exception, all of the women he has affairs with speak very fondly and very highly of him. He remains at least cordial, if not friends, with almost all of them. Yes. I was thinking about this in contrast to Bowie, who, like, in the 70s is basically fucking everybody.

As sort of promiscuous and one night standy as you can be, Leonard Cohen is in relationships, and he's got a kind of next level charisma where, oh my God, women are drawn to him. And you see this, like, over and over. But he's a gentleman. Or he seems to be a gentleman. And he seems to be, I don't know, un Bowie like in that it's not just about It's actually like deep romance, but still no life partner.

I mean, not really. Yeah. And, you know, there are other women that he's very close with where there's no sexual relationship, especially other musicians, where, you know, he's got a kindred spirit quality. There are a lot of women in my life, certainly. Somehow I appreciate the competence of women. I like the way women work.

So I find myself working with, uh, a woman engineer and woman co writer. My manager is a woman. Um. In what way do they differ from men? More selfless. Or, or a more skillful negotiation with the ego. And also very quick. Very, very quick. So I want to talk about this with you, not necessarily in terms of long term committed relationship, but let me ask it this way.

Do you see a fear of intimacy? Yes. Really? I'm not sure I interpret it that way. I think he takes marriage and committed relationships very seriously and sees it as a, something that, that maybe he's not, like, capable of. But I'm not sure... That that's necessarily driven by fear, but it's actually a recognition that he can only go so far in what is required to make a thing work.

It feels pretty honest to me. So you don't want to live in a family close, uh, you prefer just traveling around? Well, I don't want to let the facts get in the way of the truth. I guess the truth is that I don't. Want to because I don't seem to be able to establish a household I have a deep longing to establish a household, but I don't seem to

[00:37:08] Amit: pull it together.

So he's like as Committed and intimate as he can be for a period of five to ten years sometimes Yeah, but that's it and it's just run its course. So the question is is there anything wrong with that?

[00:37:20] Michael: Yeah, I don't know I mean, I feel really unqualified to weigh in on that. I Am in a long term relationship and I love my long term relationship and I don't want anything else I use the word honest a second ago and that feels kind of important to me That to your point about freedom of religion.

I mean, I think that that was driven by desperation. I think he is entering into Romantic relationships, recognizing the limitations of those relationships, that a partner cannot solve all of his internal problems, and his internal problems are so deep that he's sort of careful to not have that expectation.

Maybe that's a rationalization around fear of intimacy. I don't know. But I don't interpret it as an obvious, clear... You know, this man has fear of intimacy. It was, it was not that clear cut to me at all. Even though he had no long term partner. He

[00:38:13] Amit: just acknowledges he has limits of duration of

[00:38:16] Michael: intimacy.

Yeah, I guess, and I'm not even sure that's true. I just think that things run their course, and he's on to the next, like, struggle for himself. You know, and his struggle takes on a new... Evolution and new manifestations. But, so, okay, there's a couple ways to look at this. One, I think there's a question of desirability.

I would prefer a single long term relationship, like the one I have. Absent that, Leonard Cohen's love life looks pretty interesting to me. Right? I mean, I think that there are a series of deeply involved and important relationships. And there's also, you know, a lot of pleasure around that. Yeah. Um, and, as I said, honesty.

But I don't know. I mean, that's my take on this. I'd prefer something else. And I mean that. I mean that. Let me put it this way. I think Bowie's history is the stuff of adolescent fantasies. I don't want that. This looks more like the stuff of young adult, like, romantic dalliances, in a way that has a kind of, you know, romance to me.

Yes. And, and that's on some level, very desirable. Yeah.

[00:39:16] Amit: I get the, the, the two questions that it raises for me. One is that in, in absence of a longterm partner, though you have a lot of near ones, um, he's just always on this searching, right? And I think that could be an inhibitor to his spiritual evolution.

Yes. Right. To just, you know, lock it in and surrender. To that, to the extent that it works. Yeah. Um, and that, that's, that's where I fail to see as much of the romanticism as you do. The other question I have, and I know you said that he

[00:39:48] Michael: largely has It does look more desirable from the outside looking in, probably, and we're trying to Look from the inside here.

Yes. You know, so, and I, and I, and I think that that's important. And I, I think that that's what you're speaking to. Yeah,

[00:40:00] Amit: I mean, to, to just continually be surging sucks, I think.

[00:40:04] Michael: Sometimes you forget that you're living in this 63 year old body. You know, I think, find some nice girl and marry her, you know, find a nice little house.

I know I could really enjoy that now. A nice little house with a lovely tablecloth and, you know, and the little money coming in. And I'd know how to treat a woman now. And if we had children, I'd really enjoy them, not like the first time around where, you know, I really had to push myself into some mold that I didn't feel I was naturally in.

I did my best and, you know, thank God they've turned out okay. But... I know now that riches and big houses and all those things mean nothing. I know that the only thing that counts is to express love and respect and to bend your knee before the object of your love so that she can bend her knee to you.

You know, I know that, and

[00:40:54] Amit: I didn't know that. You know, in the 2000s, he was in a very long term relationship with Anjani Thomas, I believe, the folk singer. Yeah. So I think he did have some, some resolve there. And, and the fact

[00:41:08] Michael: that everybody walks away pretty cordial is also sort of interesting and telling to me.

Is that not to you?

[00:41:13] Amit: I just, I question that. I don't know. It's, it could be that with, when. When time has long since passed. I

[00:41:20] Michael: don't think that's it. The women who contribute to his biography really do talk about him as having played an important role in their lives, and they look back on those experiences with gratitude and love.

Yeah, but

[00:41:31] Amit: you can't forget the present moment of heartbreak. That actually happened to that. And whether he is the one that initiated it or he was the recipient

[00:41:39] Michael: of it. I agree with that, but there's also, this is a pattern. This doesn't just happen with one relationship. It happens over and over again.

That's the telling data point to me. It's not that one past lover talks about him fondly, it's that most of them do. I feel like that tells me something about, you know, his, his ability to approach these things with honesty. Yeah, I

[00:41:58] Amit: think he's, he's open and honest. I think very rare do you find a person that is...

That's an asshole either. Yeah. They're normally very kind. If you have, if you build up that much self hatred as a result of the disease, which is nearly inevitable. The disease, yeah. Yeah, it's nearly inevitable. You have a lot of generosity to give elsewhere, and that may make for him to be like a pretty impassioned person.

partner for this duration? Why people speak highly of him? Well,

[00:42:26] Michael: I, all I would say is I don't, I don't consider this fear of intimacy. I think there are intimacy issues. I don't know that I would call it a fear of intimacy. It's a byproduct of something else. Yes. Correct. Yeah.

[00:42:36] Amit: Big question mark to me

[00:42:37] Michael: though on fulfillment here.

Yes. Amen. I agree with that. Hallelujah.

[00:42:42] Amit: Okay. I can close on that.

[00:42:44] Michael: Okay. Category five, net worth. See what I saw? Yes.

[00:42:50] Amit: Michael's favorite ten million

[00:42:52] Michael: number. So, I think this is where we need to But I like this ten million. I like this ten million more than most other ten millions. Yeah,

[00:42:59] Amit: so let me take a stab at that.

taking the story. So, um, we talked about him going into the monastery in the 90s. Yes. While that was happening, his manager, also former lover named Kelly Lynch, managed to basically steal all of his money. So she signed over about 99% of the publishing rights to herself, sold them off at the end of all of this by the early

[00:43:23] Michael: 2000s.

Yes, 2004 2005, this gets, comes out, gets discovered. Exactly. I think his daughter says, you need to come check your bank account in L. A., and he didn't even know where the bank

[00:43:33] Amit: was, hardly. Correct. So he goes from upwards of five plus million down to about 100, 000. Yeah. And he has to And he's in his

[00:43:40] Michael: early 70s at that point.

[00:43:42] Amit: Right, if he turns 75 in 2009, he's right there.

[00:43:44] Michael: So there is no retirement plan. I mean, he's fucked. Yeah,

[00:43:48] Amit: so he publishes again, he records again, he goes back on tour again, and essentially rebuilds his wealth. In his late 60s, early 70s, a statistic I liked in 2009, the tour, the same one that he collapsed in Valencia.

Yeah. Uh, that tour, he earned nine and a half million dollars on, which placed him on Billboard's Touring Artists of 2009 at number 39. I saw that. Which is pretty impressive for a guy like

[00:44:16] Michael: Leonard Cohen. Yeah. What it looks like to me, he discovers this has happened, this is at around the same time Depression lifts, or so he claims.

And it looks honest, honestly. I mean, it looks genuine that he is brighter, present, experiencing gratitude, and smiling around this time. Like, the years of suffering from depression have finally lifted, which is not a story you hear all that often. And it's at the same time he realizes, Shit, I'm broke. And I've got one thing I can do.

I can go on tour. And he calls a couple of old friends. He's like, I think I gotta go on tour. And then it does sound like... This four or five year tour he goes on was wonderful. Not to mention, he is incredibly productive. I think one other thing to actually say about his net worth and his crowds, he's a way bigger international star than he is in the States.

Yes. So, there, you know, there was an audience waiting, but not one that you would have thought would have put him on number 39 of the Billboard charts in 2009. So, I love the way it ends.

[00:45:14] Amit: Yeah, I love the way it ends too, and I just, damn, to get yourself up by the bootstraps at the age of 70 and rebuild this all is nothing short of inspirational.

He's

[00:45:25] Michael: also not like, stewing, it doesn't sound like, his friends describe this moment as somewhere where he's, you know, saying, okay, this is the reality of what happens

[00:45:34] Amit: next. Yeah, I mean, he's at this point, he's an ordained monk, he's actually in this pretty committed relationship with Anjani, he is using the words, I am happy.

Before he finds out that he, he loses all of this. Jonathan

[00:45:46] Michael: Goldsmith award for most interesting man in the world. Okay. Category 6. Simpsons Saturday Night Live or Halls of Fame? This category is a measure of how famous a person is. We include both guest appearances on the Simpsons or SNL, as well as impersonations.

Alright, this is actually pretty fast. Nothing on the Simpsons. SNL. Hallelujah gets covered, and there is one really famous instance of this. So in 2016, when Trump beats Hillary in that upset, um, Kate McKinnon, who had been playing Hillary, they do a cold open with her singing Hallelujah. Hallelujah,

Hallelujah

I'm not giving up. And Kate McKinnon had to learn this song on piano. And you watch it, she gets like teary. I got teary, I remember watching it. Yeah. Okay, uh, nothing on Arsenio Hall. And he is in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. As

[00:46:51] Amit: Christian

[00:46:51] Michael: said. Yes. So, I don't know. I think that makes sense. That's about as famous as I would have placed Leonard

[00:46:57] Amit: Cohen.

Yeah, he is a niche artist, and he is an artist's artist, and those that do like him within that niche love him. Yes. So, I liked how they opened the obituary with Canadian. Yeah. So, he did receive the Commanders of the Order of Canada, which is the Canadian equivalent of being knighted.

[00:47:15] Michael: Oh, wow. All right, Category 7, over under this category, we look at the life expectancy for the year somebody was born to see if they beat the house odds and as a measure of grace.

So, the life expectancy for a man born in Canada in 1934 is actually not obvious. Somewhere around 60, 61, Leonard Cohen died at 82, so about 20 to 21 years over. I also think next level grace. Yeah. I think I'm in a good period. I think it was Tennessee Williams said, uh, Life is a fairly well written play, except for the third act.

But for you it was the best so far. Well, uh, so I'm probably in, in, you know, the most graceful period. that I've ever experienced, you know, before the onset of the unpleasant destruction of the body, which is inevitable. They talk about him in his 70s on this, like, final tour, series of tours, literally skipping across the stage.

I don't know a lot of 70 year olds skipping. Oh, totally. He is agile and very handsome still. The Grace is Maya Angelou like. Yeah, I mean,

[00:48:22] Amit: this man is a triumph. He also drank and smoked heavily for a long, long time. But I want to go back to this point of triumph, right? To Christian's very first point, this is a man that lived a very positive, happy ending throughout a deep, dark middle.

Yeah.

[00:48:41] Michael: Hallelujah. Right? All right, let's pause. Mary Tyler Moore.

[00:48:49] Amit: I think dead.

[00:48:51] Michael: The rules are simple. Dead or alive. She died in 2017. William the Refrigerator

[00:48:57] Amit: Perry.

[00:48:59] Michael: I think the fridge died. The fridge is still alive. Author, Jackie Collins. Alive? We lost her in 2015, I'm afraid. Willie D. I'll take a hint on this one.

Willie D is a ghetto boy's rapper. Alive. Willie D is still with us at 55 years old. Wow. He's good. Yeah, he's good. Test your knowledge. DeadOrAliveApp. com

All right, Category 8, Man in the Mirror. How do we think he felt about his own reflection? So he actually says some stuff in a Fresh Air interview about this. If you don't see yourself as physically beautiful, what has it been like to feel like you're a slave to beauty yet feel that you don't embody that yourself?

Well, I, I, I've asked this question to a lot of people that, that are, you know, uh, certifiably beautiful who don't. feel that they're beautiful. So I don't think anybody beats the rap, uh, in, in this, uh, realm. There were times that I thought I was good looking, but most of the time I felt, you know, like a snail, like a worm, like a slug.

I think the last time was this morning at breakfast. Man in the Mirror, you and I have talked about, like, what is this category about? Is it about self perception? Is it about... Self acceptance, you know. Esteem as well. Yeah. And there's a lot of ways to look at this. It's striking because he's a very handsome and attractive man.

Like, nobody's going to disagree with that. And he, I mean, you know, we take a snapshot of it. Does he have more self acceptance than not? Over the span of his life, you want to, like, tend towards no. That he, he doesn't look in the mirror and say, I feel good about myself. Because I don't think he's looking...

Inside and feeling good about himself most of his life. But I don't know, I mean, he's, to me it's a reminder of how much the mirror is lying. That we ever look into any mirror and hope to find something truthful about ourselves. Yeah. It's all, this is why this category is fun for me, is that that temptation is always there.

Let me check my reflection real quick, see how I'm doing. Checking on Michael, or whatever. Yeah. Always a lie, regardless of how good or bad I look. that day. I can never be the ultimate judge on me. I'd never have the most honest take on me. I need others to tell me what they see. The mirror is always lying.

So I don't think he liked it. But yeah, it got me thinking about this category and like what we're after. Yeah, I think we're

[00:51:42] Amit: after all of that to answer your first question, I have a different answer than you. Oh. So, you know, he's plenty of validation for his looks, right? With, with all of these starlets that we even know of and so forth, but just admired, adored, good looking man.

Uh, a lot of struggles with the mind. I think, and this is coming somewhat from experience, is that he looks in the mirror and is like, you know, I'm, I'm a pretty good looking guy and I'm a work of art. How the F am I so depressed? How the F did I, is, is my mind taking over? And the mirror actually feels better than times without it.

[00:52:23] Michael: Okay. That sounds honest and true. Yeah. Category nine, outgoing message like man in the mirror. We want to know how they felt about the sound of their own voice when they heard it on an answering machine or outgoing voicemail. Also, would they use the default setting or would they record it themselves when recording their outgoing message?

I just wrote, yeah, I think he loved it. And I think he saw it as a gift. His voice changes. This also comes up in that Fresh Air interview. Definitely becomes

[00:52:50] Amit: raspier, very like Dracula like towards the end. I want to talk with

[00:52:54] Michael: you a little bit how your voice has changed over the years. Has that changed because of cigarettes?

Well, I, I, yeah, about 500 tons of whiskey and, you know, a million cigarettes. This is one of those instances, though, where I do feel like the singer's voice and the poet's voice and the spoken voice are all kind of in harmony, more or less. Yeah. And we haven't even talked about this yet. You know, the first line of the obit says he was a promising poet novelist.

He didn't get into music until his 30s. He was late on the scene. He was not really accepted by the Beats. I mean, Dylan thinks he's great, and he kind of falls in with Joni Mitchell, but he's not exactly like your prototypical folk singer. He's got, like, hippie tendencies, but he doesn't wear the wardrobe.

And this goes back to the suit thing that we were he's able to move past all of that because his voice is true to the moment. And his words and his music capture the moment well. So, I think he loves his voice. Even if he doesn't love the way it sounds when it's singing, I think he's grateful that he has the voice he has.

And it's evolution.

[00:53:59] Amit: I think his voice sucks, to be honest. Like, and let me clear this up, that I like Leonard Cohen. I bought my first Leonard Cohen CD probably sophomore year, junior year in college. And I like him and I like his music. It spoke to me very well at that time. But I think his voice sucks. I don't think he's a good singer.

Was I supposed

[00:54:19] Michael: to praise my lord? Make some kind of joyful sound? The entire package of Leonard Cohen,

[00:54:28] Amit: the lyrics, the, uh, intention and all, that works for me, or

[00:54:35] Michael: worked

[00:54:36] Amit: for me. The voice itself, you take that exact voice and they are singing Beatles songs? I don't think so.

[00:54:45] Michael: Where I encountered him, for what it's worth, was the Natural Born Killer soundtrack.

Yeah. There is something very haunting and deep and profound in his voice that I don't want on my radio with a casual listen. But when I go for it, and when I seek it out... You know it delivers. Yeah, so I I don't think it sucks, but I kind of know what you mean. Yeah Uh, what about leaving it on a voicemail?

I don't think

[00:55:09] Amit: so. I think too cool, man Interesting. I think this is where like there there there is an emotional. I think he's got the ability to do it I think

[00:55:16] Michael: I think he's like wait, I'm supposed to get on my phone. I'm not gonna make time for that bullshit I like that answer. I like that answer if he'll just forget

[00:55:23] Amit: to do it.

Yeah, but the point we're making it's not because he's above it

[00:55:26] Michael: Yeah, that's right. Okay, because I think he has humility and I think he he I think he's got an ego, but I also think he sees himself existing with a common person. I think he recognizes the human condition in himself and in everybody, and that's part of the reason that his art and his music and his poetry are so celebrated by those who know it.

Yeah, and I

[00:55:46] Amit: think we concur that, you know, shaving your head and living in a monastery for five years was not. performance art.

[00:55:53] Michael: Right. That's right. Neither was going to the front lines of the Omkapur war.

[00:55:56] Amit: Yeah. This is connection. This is connecting into your innermost part of yourself.

[00:56:00] Michael: That's great. That's correct.

All right. Category 10 regrets, public or private. What we really want to know is what, if anything, kept this person awake at night. I only have one thing actually on public. It was, we already mentioned it. Uh, Kelly Lynch, the woman who essentially ripped off all his money. I think that there was a, gosh, I wish that hadn't happened.

However, Even that, I don't think is exactly a regret. He is even pretty explicit in his biography that he is really forward looking. I mean, he, he, he, for whatever else is going on with him, I don't think he's looking back on his life and saying, God, I woulda, shoulda done things differently. So, I, I, I think it's a resounding no regrets, actually.

I think it's critical to his... worldview. That's the case I'd make. Okay.

[00:56:48] Amit: Actually, this was a really interesting one that I actually heard him say, I regret this. So are you familiar with the band Nirvana? Of course. Okay. They have a song called Pennyroyal Tea, which references him. Yes. Which has a lyric that says, give me a Leonard Cohen afterworld so I can laugh eternally.

Yeah. Right. Sung by Kurt Cobain. Leonard Cohen was aware of this, had never reached out to Kurt Cobain. And he said that he regrets that. now because he thinks he could have helped him. Yeah. He thinks he could have helped him through the addiction and despair. I think he's

[00:57:18] Michael: right. That's a

[00:57:20] Amit: good one. Yeah.

Imagine that revisionist history. Talk about the most interesting man in the world of like, if we redid this world and Kurt Cobain never faced the tragedy that he did. This

[00:57:30] Michael: is the thing though, and not to get too fricking dark on it, but, and maybe this is a good segue into good dreams, bad dreams. It's not about personal perception, but rather, does this person have a haunted look in the eye?

Something that suggests inner turmoil, inner demons, or unresolved trauma. I think, yeah, he has a haunted look in the eye. I don't think we really have to debate this one. But, to your story about Kurt Cobain, it is kind of miraculous, frankly. That given the depths of despair and the creative struggles and everything in Leonard Cohen's life, It's a little miraculous to me that he never took his own life.

Totally, and that's why Okay, and so, this is the And let me finish the thought and then I want to hear your reaction. While he was not able to reach Kurt Cobain in time, I really wonder if there are other musicians, poets, and struggling artists for whom they did have an interaction with Leonard Cohen and he said, There is salvation.

Yes. There is a way forward. We don't know, but I wouldn't be surprised if Trent Reznor, or if, like, he is in a unique position to make an approach to somebody and say, Creative catharsis is real. Yes. And spiritual pursuit and freedom of religion is available to you, and you do not have to end it, and I see your genius, and I see your pain.

We don't know, but that wouldn't surprise me at all. Unquestionably bad dreams, but I also think that maybe he's a savior. Who knows? Yeah, we remember

[00:58:53] Amit: tortured people, especially these highly profile Tortured people robin williams as well. Um, philip seymour

[00:59:00] Michael: hoffman

[00:59:01] Amit: Yeah, correct, but like these leonard cohen triumphs are so important Yeah, these stories are so important because you don't you don't hear him the the depths of what this man went through in his head I think just as bad as all of these people that we just mentioned.

[00:59:19] Michael: And for people who've experienced acute clinical depression, I mean, the problem is getting to the next moment. You know, I mean, the room tilts, you lose your balance, and, uh, they're, you know, you're incapable of, uh, coherent thought. Have you, have

[00:59:33] Amit: you been that bad? Yes, yeah.

[00:59:36] Michael: Did you ever worry that if you dealt with the depression that you would lose touch with your artistic side?

That's a popular notion, you know, that, that it is exclusively suffering that produces good work, or insightful work. I, I don't think that's the case. Good work is produced in spite of suffering, as a victory. Oversuffering. We need

[00:59:56] Amit: these stories. We need, need

[00:59:57] Michael: these stories out there. And had maybe the most important ten years of his life were incredible,

[01:00:03] Amit: right?

That

[01:00:03] Michael: he made it to those last ten years. He didn't just make it and didn't kill himself, that he had this like, went out in a kind of blaze of glory of a world tour where people are holding green candles and singing happy birthday to him and, you know, he's getting love letters from, you know, romantic dalliances in his twenties saying, I'm ready to move on.

I mean, unbelievable.

[01:00:24] Amit: Yeah. Unbelievable. Unbelievable. That's, you know, so much that's the point of this guy, is like, it can resolve. Yeah. It can. There's

[01:00:32] Michael: hope. There's, there is hope in his story. Yeah. Category 12. Cocktail, coffee, or cannabis? This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity.

This may be a question of what kind of drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person, or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them that we're most curious about. I know I don't want to take LSD with him and Dennis Hopper at a mental asylum in Napa.

I went with a glass of wine. Not a dos

[01:00:59] Amit: equis? I don't

[01:01:00] Michael: think so, I thought about it, but I think a chardonnay. A chardonnay? Yeah, I was just thinking something light and something a little bit chill, you know, warm day. I mean, to hear him describe his time on Hydra, you know, on this Greek island where, you know, the Mediterranean climate sat well with him and he'd go swimming in the ocean.

And he had this, you know, beautiful girlfriend, and he's writing poetry and writing novels and thinking about moving into, you know, music. I know it can get heavy with this guy, but I want just a little bit of lightness with him, you know? There are moments of agony and ecstasy with him. I'd like to hover somewhere in the middle.

And be kind of on the nice edge there, either way. Um, something about a white wine made sense to me in that setting. Interesting.

[01:01:52] Amit: So, I'm similar. I also chose, um, cocktail. Uh, I thought Negroni. On, on the Greek island of Hydra. Returning back, uh, to it with him, with him in his suit. And he can, he can even wear the fedora.

Sure. Um.

[01:02:06] Michael: I might, I might see if he has an extra one.

[01:02:08] Amit: No, I will not. I will not. For yourself. Yeah. Well, it's to protect from the sun.

[01:02:12] Michael: Yeah, it is. I don't need that as much. My bald head needs something.

[01:02:15] Amit: Okay, so access, I don't think it's an issue with this guy. He lays it all out there. We've got the stories.

There's deep, dark access, but I don't want to go there. I don't. And I don't think he wants to go there. I agree. You know, I'd be tempted to ask for the lesson in resilience. I don't think I even want any of that. The type of guy that would, that runs to war, that lives in a monastery for five years after he's already achieved huge success.

Yeah. That's the type of guy I would love to just have an opportunity to hang out with, and there's no agenda, there's no topic on the table, I just

[01:02:50] Michael: want to see it unfold. And wherever the conversation went organically, it'd probably be worthwhile, right? Yeah, correct. I think he elevates existence, and that's the point.

We could've

[01:02:59] Amit: swum to Cyprus by the end of it.

[01:03:01] Michael: Fuckin A. I don't know. I think he elevates existence. It's that simple. Okay, we've arrived. Final category. The Vanderbeek named after James Vanderbeek who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life. This is kind of a big one, right? Yeah. Based on everything we've talked about, do you want this life?

Can you go first? Okay, I'll tell you the two or three thoughts that are on my mind. The main point of hesitation is probably, there's two. One is the long term committed relationships. I do love that I have a soulmate. I take her for granted. But there is a safety and a security with somebody who is in the kind of relationship that I have, and I forget that, and I do think that while what I said earlier about um, uh, Um You got to be careful about the ask that you're making with any relationship.

There is a baseline sense of stability that comes with it that I think was part of Leonard Cohen's perpetual search. On the superficial level, that's the main knock against this life. The other thing that gives me major hesitation is that I don't think I have the emotional range he had. And I don't think that the depths of pain he felt are things that are familiar to me.

But man, what we were saying a minute ago, that he found what looks like salvation, the hope that that represents not just to other people, but that, that's, that's something that comes from the inside out. That's an expression that exists. Deep within that, as others observe your life, you either say, I see that, or I don't.

And I think that honesty and integrity are second nature to him, in a sense. I don't know that I want this exact same path of salvation and relief for whatever... Human condition exists within me, but I know I want some version of it. So I'm a yes, man. I'm a yes. I want this life. And as it comes up a lot in our show, it's not for the superficial reasons.

It's not for the money. It's not for the sex. It's not for the accolades or the adoration. It's this journey, this story. This was a, like, a complete and rich and not a moment wasted, doesn't feel like, to me, life. He let it unfold, and that he ultimately landed somewhere that you have to believe that's possible.

Yeah. So I'm a yes. Okay.

[01:05:46] Amit: I love that you're a yes, uh, and I love that we have the Leonard Cohen story. Um, but there is clear evidence of a ton of suffering, which he aired out, wrote about, sang about. And he's also very closely associated with it, you know, he has a lot of nicknames and one of them is like the grocer of despair.

Yeah. You know, and that is not, uh, People made jokes about selling records with razor blades or whatever. Yeah. And that's, you know, that's not his choice. He was, he was. Writing and speaking what he was feeling. Yeah. And that's so important, I mean, like you said about Susan Cain, it was her catharsis. Yeah.

Right? It's so important to have that and have people be vocal about that so others do not feel alone. However, for me and my soul, it's too much suffering. And the... End does not justify the means here. I love the end. The end is important. I hope and I pray that the vast majority of the world has the constitution and patience to see how it ends and how it unfolds.

I, however, do not have the suffering tolerance gene in me. And I don't think a version of my soul has that. I can't have that much suffering. And so I want the ending, I want the happiness that Leonard Cohen had, that he finally arrived and reached at. I don't want to wait that long.

[01:07:24] Michael: So I'm a no. Yeah, that makes sense.

Or at least you're a no today.

[01:07:33] Amit: Every day, different answer.

[01:07:38] Michael: Amit, you are Leonard Cohen. You have passed away at the age of 82. Standing before you is St. Peter, the universal proxy for the afterlife. What was your contribution to the stream of life?

[01:07:57] Amit: Yeah. So, St. Peter, I know about you. I read about you. I read about all religions. And I do that because I feel alone in my soul.

Often. I did. I did down there. Funny enough, that is my contribution. I wrote about it. I sang about it, and in others hearing those words, they feel less alone. They know that they are not suffering alone. No one is suffering alone. I happened to croon about it. I had a public platform to do it. And I know, and I hope, and I pray.

That it connected with people, made them feel less alone, pulled them through, and that they can find the happiness at the end of the tunnel that I did. I want everyone to know that. Let me in.

[01:08:56] Michael: Before you leave, Famous and Gravy listeners, if you are interested in participating in our opening quiz where we reveal the dead celebrity, then please send us an email. You can reach us at helloatfamousandgravy. com. Recordings usually take less than five minutes, and we love hearing from you. Otherwise, thank you for listening to this episode.

If you're enjoying our show, and you don't feel like emailing us, please tell your friends about us. You can find us on Twitter. Our handle is atfamousandgravy. We also have a newsletter, which you can sign up. on our website, famous and gravy. com famous and gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne.

This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss, original theme music by Kevin Strang. Thank you again for listening. See you next time.