055 Pure Imagination transcript (Gene Wilder)

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[00:00:00] Weird Al: Hi, I'm Weird Al Yankovic, and you're listening to the Pantheon Network.

[00:00:04] Amit: This is Famous Gravy, the show where we study famous lives in search for the secret sauce to living well. Now for the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

[00:00:17] Michael: This person died in 2016, age 83. He was an accomplished stage actor, as well as screenwriter, novelist, and the director of four movies in which he starred.

[00:00:30] Friend: Woody Allen made way more than four movies. And he, I think he's still alive.

[00:00:34] Michael: Yeah, yeah, not Woody Allen. He made his movie debut in 1967 in the celebrated crime drama, Bonnie and Clyde.

[00:00:43] Friend: Uh, Francis Coppola. Francis Coppola.

[00:00:45] Michael: Not Francis Ford Coppola. He was best known for playing roles on the big screen that might have been ripped from the pages of the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. He had haunted blue eyes and an empathy born of his own history of psychic distress.

[00:01:03] Friend: Whoa. All right. I don't know if this is right, but Stanley Kubrick.

[00:01:07] Michael: Not Stanley Kubrick, his rule for comedy was simple. Don't try to make it funny, try to make it real. Quote, I'm an actor, not a clown. He said more than once.

[00:01:18] Friend: Oh, the guy that, oh man, what's his name? I know this name. Um, the guy from Willy Wonka.

[00:01:25] Michael: In 1971, he was nominated for a Golden Globe for his performance as the wizardly title character in Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory.

[00:01:33] Friend: Ha! Yes, I was close. Okay, Gene Wilder.

[00:01:37] Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Gene Wilder. Yes.

Yeah, you got it.

[00:01:44] Archival: I was, uh, eight or nine years old, and my mother had a heart attack. And when she came home, the doctor said, Don't ever get into an argument with your mother because you might kill her.

The second thing he said was, Try to make her laugh. I have never consciously tried to make anyone laugh in my life. But I did from then on. And I knew I was a success when she peed in her pants.

[00:02:24] Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

[00:02:26] Amit: And I'm Amit Kapoor.

[00:02:28] Michael: On this show, we believe that our best years might lie ahead. So, on each episode, we choose a celebrity who died in the last 10 years and review their quality of life. We go through a series of categories to figure out the things in life that we would actually desire, and ultimately answer a big question. Would I want that life? Today, Gene Wilder, died 2016, age 83. So, today on the show, we are thrilled to be joined by Stephanie Okupniak. Steph, thank you so much for coming on.

[00:03:01] Steph: Thank you for having me.

[00:03:03] Michael: So, just to give listeners a little bit of background, Steph is the host of an awesome and very popular podcast called A Life Lived, and she is a news producer in the UK.

Not unlike Famous and Gravy, the subject matter of Steph's podcast is recently deceased famous people. However, whereas A Life Lived is a biographical portrait, which is wonderfully told in chronology, Famous and Gravy turns biographies around and asks, What can we learn from these lives? A little while back, Steph did an episode on her show about Gene Wilder, where among other things, she spent time with his nephew, Jared, who was kind of like a son to Gene.

So we thought Steph would be the perfect person to invite on to help us grade the first line of Gene Wilder's obituary. So I know a life live, you know, you really poured a lot of heart and soul into your show And I remember when you and I first connected I said, you know What are some of your favorite episodes and you said have you listened to the Gene Wilder one and I did and oh, it's awesome I just loved it.

Tell me a little bit about that episode. I mean just before we get into it

[00:04:09] Steph: Oh god, it was like composing music if there's a particular instrument that you find to be soothing for me It hands down is Gene Wilder, which is also really ironic because he is so animated.

[00:04:24] Michael: No, but that makes sense. There is a kind of, I don't, I like the way you describe him as, as, as music. There is something musical about his personality, about his aura, about his vibe.

[00:04:35] Steph: It's like watching this incredible composition at work. I mean... There, I, I can only equate him to a harp. You have this fantastic range and it shouldn't make sense, but you can go from the lowest notes to the highest notes and, and it's just organic.

I mean, if you watch his Leo

Bloom from the producers, it's insane. I meant no scheme. I merely posed a little academic accounting theory. It was just a thought. You miserable, cowardly, wretched little caterpillar. Don't you ever want to become a butterfly? You're gonna jump on me! You're gonna jump on me! I know you're gonna jump on me!

Don't touch me! Don't touch me! Oh my god, no, no! I'm hysterical! I'm having hysterics! I'm hysterical! I can't stop when I get like this! I can't stop! I'm hysterical! I'm wet! I'm hysterical

and I'm wet! While I'm watching him... My empathy just explodes. I'm like, I

totally get it, man.

And then you see the juxtaposition of him in a role like Willy Wonka, and he's completely in control of this insane situation happening around him.

And he's a sociopath.

One of my

favorite songs in the entire world is the siren song. pure imagination. It's beautiful. And when you learn a little bit more about Gene Wilder, it all makes sense. So he's just this fantastic human being who took all of these layers of humanity and poured it into his art.

And the more you learn about him, no wonder he was A, so talented, and B, so iconic.

[00:06:28] Michael: I think that's a beautiful lead in. Let's get right to it. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Gene Wilder, who established himself as one of America's foremost comic actors with his delightfully neurotic performances in three films directed by Mel Brooks.

His eccentric star turn in the family classic Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory And his winning chemistry with Richard Pryor in the box office smash, Stir Crazy, died early Monday morning at his home in Stanford, Connecticut. He was 83. Whoo! They got a lot in? They got a lot in. I think they got three, uh, one, two, there's some semicolons in this one.

Two semicolons. Can you have two semicolons? They did it. Yes, the answer is yes, because they did it.

[00:07:17] Steph: My op ed won't have any semicolons. I'll be happy if there's a comma.

[00:07:21] Amit: Mine is just going to be a semi crunch. I

[00:07:24] Michael: don't know what that means, but I'll, I'll sit with that. Um, it feels appropriate. Okay. Initial reaction, Steph, what do you got?

What do you think?

[00:07:32] Steph: I have to take it from two perspectives. From a fan, yes. For face value, that's valid. But from somebody who's made an episode about him, that is literally the skin on top of the yogurt.

[00:07:46] Michael: I agree, but it hints at a tremendous amount. I mean, I, you know, there's... Semicolons. Exactly. I can't remember a note with this many semicolons.

Amit, what's your reaction?

[00:07:56] Amit: Yeah, I like that they captured the breadth of at least all of the Mel Brooks stuff plus Willy Wonka plus

[00:08:02] Michael: Richard Pryor I I think that collaboration is like because there's three different things that you might know him for these very raunchy You know Mel Brooks movies this kid's movie that is kind of a cult classic and as it's interesting story in its own right and this like incredible chemistry with, you know, one of the great standup comics of the 20th century.

Those are three very different, like, entry points into his art. So I, I, I kind of like that they got all that

[00:08:29] Amit: in. Totally. And that's not easy to do no matter how freewheeling of a semicolon user you are. But I think what stuck out to me a lot was one of the first words they used where they said comic actor.

The guy's not a comic actor. Like I think he was, he was an anti comic actor. He didn't like to

[00:08:44] Michael: be considered a comic actor. An anti comic actor? That sounds like you're trying to say something smart there. What does that mean?

[00:08:48] Amit: He was an actor who happened to be in comedies. I saw Charlie

[00:08:51] Michael: Chaplin in the circus at a Chaplin film festival in New York.

The acting lesson from this film seemed so simple, yet it inspired me for the rest of my career. If the thing you're doing is really funny, you don't need to act funny while

[00:09:07] Amit: doing it. Do you think Gene Wilder, were he alive to read his own obituary, would like that phrasing?

[00:09:13] Michael: No. No, I don't think he would.

But I don't know. Is it wrong? I

[00:09:18] Steph: think because he so avidly spoke out against being a comic actor while he was alive, we should take that into account and be respectful. So as an obit writer, Which I have a lot of experience in. I wouldn't have phrased it that way. However, there's a lot of people who are funny that we laugh at.

Who might not self identify as funny, but you just can't help but laugh at them. And one of the first things that Mel Brooks ever said to Gene Wilder was, You might not know it, but you look kind of funny. And you'll be really good in comedy roles.

[00:09:55] Michael: So, you said something that was sort of interesting. He would not identify as a comic actor.

However, I don't know that how one wants to be identified is necessary for the obit writer. The obit writer's obligation is to their audience and what you know him for. And so when they call him a comic actor, I think that while Gene Wilder may balk at it, I'm not sure that that's the ultimate important test here.

I think it's how we think of him. I just called

[00:10:24] Amit: it out as, as an anomaly that stuck out. I, I wasn't necessarily pointing it out as being incorrect. It just really struck me because so many of what I read, heard, and saw in Gene Wilde interviews was, I am not a comic actor, literally those words verbatim.

[00:10:39] Michael: Yeah, yeah, I, I think that's fair. Steph? I think

[00:10:43] Steph: rewording that to say, America's foremost actors noted for comedies like...

[00:10:50] Michael: Yes, I think that's the better rewrite. Let's talk about what's working here. I love delightfully neurotic performances in Mel Brooks. Yeah, that's an eccentric star turn. And winning chemistry with Richard Pryor.

I'm so glad they used the word chemistry. It is like, You know, Newman and Redford, Laurel and Hardy, like, there's a, like, pairing of two greats that like, boy, it just pops off the screen there. So I, I think a lot of the other things going on in this obit work. I do agree. I agree.

[00:11:21] Amit: Delightfully neurotic, my personal favorite.

[00:11:23] Steph: I mean, Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder, that's PB& J right

[00:11:26] Michael: there. Well said. Uh, all right, I think I'm ready to grade. Do you guys feel ready to grade? Let's get grading. I'm going to go nine. I really like this one. I'm docking a point. Y'all talked me into the comic actor. I think it's better to call him an actor who was in comedies.

I like your rewrite there, Steph. I love, though, that they got in these three very different sort of domains of movie history. I also think that the words they plucked to describe him were really, almost without exception, right on the money. So, uh, I was very impressed with this one. Sometimes I like more economy and a little bit more simplicity.

However, I think he's worthy of three semicolons, so I'm giving it a nine.

[00:12:08] Amit: Okay, I'll go next. I'm gonna go eight. I mean, I was the one that first raised the issue about comic actor, and again, I don't think it's necessarily a mistake, but I, I'm just asking for a little more thought into it. Uh, and so I'm minusing two points for that, and I'm landing at an eight.

That's fair. All right, Steph.

[00:12:26] Michael: I'm going six. Whoa! Whoa. Okay. Wow. Okay. So what else is this missing? We didn't get to things, apparently.

[00:12:33] Steph: In the title, they mention Young Frankenstein, but they don't in the top line. And that is the film that he was Oscar nominated for. That was his first foray into writing. It is his passion project, and I do think it was a bit disrespectful.

To lump it as a directed film by Mel Brooks.

[00:12:51] Michael: Yeah, it puts it in the same category as Blazing Saddles and Producers. Exactly, and it's

[00:12:56] Steph: not. Yeah. I also am annoyed. Because there are classic love stories in Hollywood, and Gilda Radner and Gene Wilder are one of them, in the registry of his legacy. So take away what the man created film wise, the Gilda Radner, um, oh God, what is it?

Gilda's Club. The, the charity to support, uh, families and people going through cancer is still going strong and is, uh, it's across the country. And I just feels like one of those accolades that he isn't given enough credit for and that came out of the birth of their

[00:13:34] Michael: relationship. So Legacy was a nod to Gilda Radner and, and, and that ongoing impact.

Um,

[00:13:41] Amit: you know, the, he, he was largely off screen for the last 20 or so years of his life. And a lot of that work in the charitable work and, um, around ovarian cancer was a big part of his life then. So that much, it is a bit of an omission of how he spent. 25% of his life.

[00:13:58] Michael: Okay, six, eight, and nine. Let's move on.

Category two, five things I love about you. Here, um, at Steph and I are going to come up with five things we love about Gene Wilder, five reasons why we want to be talking about him in the first place. So Steph, we would love for you to contribute thing number one before you leave us.

[00:14:14] Steph: I love a swordsman.

And he's a champion fencer.

[00:14:18] Michael: Wow, didn't see that coming. Tell me that's not sexy. I want to hear more about I love a swordsman. I want to hear more about I

[00:14:25] Amit: love a swordsman. This is actually on my list too. I didn't use the word swordsman. I knew

[00:14:28] Steph: that there was a connection there. I am actually, well, I used to be.

I haven't maintained the certificate, but I actually am a certified combatant in seven weapons. It was part of my university degree. So there is a, particular focus and skill and practice that comes with it that's, in my personal opinion, very unique, because you're handling something that's fatal, um, and to find out that he was It's incredibly accomplished in that, and was taught by Earl Flynn's teacher, and then he said that he was one of his greatest students.

Like, that's just epic to me.

[00:15:05] Michael: Thing number one, accomplished swordsman. I love it. I think I find it highly desirable. Amit, you've got a thoughtful look on your face. I just wanted to ask

[00:15:14] Amit: Stephanie, why, if we just take the totality of life, why is it important to be an excellent swordsman?

[00:15:22] Steph: Thought and focus and

[00:15:23] Amit: patience.

Okay.

[00:15:26] Steph: To be a skilled sword fighter, you need to know exactly where that point is, and that point is an extension of your arm, which is essentially six feet past your face. And you need to know exactly where it's pointing at all times, so you know where you're aiming, how hard you're hitting, and the impact it's going to have on the other person, and the result it's going to achieve at the end.

And to be able to do that with speed and grace and intention, you need to have Discipline, and focus, and patience, and It doesn't have to be the end result of how to achieve all three of those things, but that was one of the things that he

[00:16:05] Amit: used. Yeah, there's several more metaphors buried

[00:16:08] Michael: in there. Ain't that the truth.

Ain't that the truth. I think some of them we're, we're going to get to as we go. Steph, thank you so much for hopping on to join us. I loved your episode on Gene Wilder. I've loved all the episodes of Life Lived. We will link to it in the show notes, and I hope to have you back on the show at some point.

I'm really glad we were able to connect. You

[00:16:26] Steph: guys are so much fun. Love the show. Thank you so much, and I look forward to talking to you guys again

[00:16:31] Amit: soon. Awesome. Thanks again, Gisele. Thank you, Steph. Bye, guys.

[00:16:35] Michael: If you want to view

[00:16:37] Amit: paradise,

[00:16:39] Michael: simply look around and view it. Anything you want to do it. Want to change the world?

Nothing. Okay, so unbeknownst to Steph, that is the perfect segue into a thing I love. If you want to go first, you can, but I, I, I'm like chomping at

[00:17:02] Amit: the bit now. Please, please, please, run with your excitement. Go through the chocolate factory. Give us your number two.

[00:17:07] Michael: It's just so perfect how she teed it up.

Okay, bring it. Precision. And I thought a lot about this word. So it's very tempting with Gene Wilder to say timing, because I think his timing as an actor is absolutely incredible, but I'm saying precision because it's not just about when he says a line, but it's also about how. Shallow and how deep he chooses to go with his lines in his acting.

The single best example for me, I know Steph pointed to Young Frankenstein, which is excellent, but I think it's In Blazing Saddles. I mean, in so many ways, that movie is Looney Tunes, it is cartoonish, it's goofy, but There are a couple of key scenes with Gene Wilder and Cleavon Little where it's all about the acting, and you sort of step outside the crazy farce.

And my favorite, this line always kills me, it's when we learn the backstory of the Waco Kid. So, today he is a total drunkard, but he used to be the fastest gun, not just in the West, but in the world. And when Sheriff Bart asks him, What happened? How did you get to be like this? He tells this devastating story.

And one day, I was just walking down the street, and I heard a voice behind me say, Reach for it, mister. I spun around, and there I was, face to face, with a six year old kid. Well, I just threw my guns down and walked away. And then he delivers my favorite seven lines in all of comedy history. Little bastard shot me in the ass.

That line fucking kills me every time. It's so precise. The way he gets it, like, right in that microsecond. One minute, I'm like, right there in this, like, low moment. And it's because of acting range that that line lands so well. And frankly, everything he does in Blazing Saddles and The Producers and Young Frankenstein, it's all built around this.

Precision, which requires such like awareness of what's happening in life and what's happening with other actors on the stage and what's happening all around us. So precision for me is not just about timing. It's an X, Y, and Z mark, right? It's what's happening below, beneath, around, and moving through space.

Thing number one, precision.

[00:19:32] Amit: Yeah. And it's like Steph said, with relation to swordsmanship, it's knowing where that it's extension of your arm at six feet, knowing where it stops. A

[00:19:39] Michael: hundred percent. You want to take thing number three?

[00:19:42] Amit: I'm going to continue on. We're going to play the swordsman game. In number three, Patience.

When Willy Wonka came out, it was not successful. It was a much later cult classic success. As was the producers. These two legendary. I don't even know what to call them because they're not even movies. They're institutions. They've been reincarnated in so many different ways. Both kind of box office failures and, and critical failures.

So I heard in one of his interviews, Gene Wilder said that after the premiere of Willy Wonka, and this is after the producers, his father told him, he was like, you know, another failure, you may have to look. to just change industries. I saw that. Um, and the failures he's pointing to are the producers and Willy Wonka, uh, which I just find hilarious, but, um, he didn't.

He stuck in the game, obviously continued to act and direct himself, found this wonderful partnership with Pryor and had this storied career. Uh, so the lesson to me is like, if you are creating what Seems to be right and it's not received perfectly at first. Just wait. If you believe, wait.

[00:20:53] Michael: This has been very on my mind lately.

What is patience? I've really been thinking about that question. I've been doing morning yoga. The lady I do the YouTube thing says set your intention for the day and sometimes I'll say I want my intention for the day to be I actually don't know what patience feels like, Amit. I know what impatience feels like.

Impatience feels like frustration, like the world not bending to my will. Like, like what does, seriously, what does patience feel like? I think it's something about surrender. You know, or finding gratitude in the moment. What do you think patience is, actually? Because when I stop and think about it, I'm not sure I have a great answer.

I know I want it. I know I want to be a more patient man, and I admire that about Gene Wilder. Like, I love that you chose this for a thing you love about him. But I actually, I've really been actively thinking about it, and I'm not sure I understand what it

[00:21:43] Amit: is. I mean, I think there's, there's a couple of degrees of patience that we're talking about.

There's one thing to say, you know, be patient with your children. And then there's another here where we're saying, be patient with. Your life and with your work and I guess what that boils down to to me is trust and faith that if you have Really put down your best work and something that you

[00:22:04] Michael: truly believe has value and yeah is

[00:22:07] Amit: good Uh, sometimes you just have to wait for it The first people that come across or the first time it's listened to or viewed or whatnot for the first few months or few years may not be the right audience and it may just take time to marinate and I guess it's just rest in your own confidence that you created and are doing the right thing and maybe there is not that payoff that Willy Wonka and the producers had but maybe you should just rest somewhere else Rather than seeking skyrockets.

No, I mean, I

[00:22:39] Michael: think it's kind of a question of where do you seek validation, right? Like if you know the work is good, if it doesn't find an audience, but you're like, but I'm proud of what I did here and I gave it my all, then, then, you know, you should have some serenity. Built around surrender and patience there.

Well, patience leads

[00:22:56] Amit: you through that. Yes. Right? Yeah. Leads you through guiding yourself towards that. Correct. So, alright. To

[00:23:02] Michael: internal validation. To be continued, because I'm really interested in this question of what is patience, but that's helpful. And you moved the ball forward for me a little bit.

Alright, number four for you. I, you know what? Alright, I'm gonna go with this. Great creative collaborators. So, I think if you were to say, who are the great humorists over the last, say, hundred years? Mel Brooks and Richard Pryor are Near the top of the list. I mean, Richard Pryor is probably my favorite stand up comic of all time.

And Mel Brooks is easily responsible for some of the funniest movies of all time. Like, if we're talking about desirability, I desire to work with great talent and great creative people. And these are... Two pretty different individuals with whom he found unbelievable chemistry. Because I really think, like, great creativity is very rarely about one individual.

It's always about who are you working with and how do the sum add up to be more than the individual parts. And I think he found that with two of the greats of the 20th century. I admire that and I desire that. Yeah,

[00:24:08] Amit: makes sense. Fortunately, you have a fantastic co host. I

[00:24:11] Michael: have you, yeah. You're my Gene Richard, uh, or would you prefer Mel?

Who are we? Who are we? Oh, you're way more Mel Brooks. You have so much more

[00:24:18] Amit: range. And you're the wilder

[00:24:20] Michael: there? Sure, I think so. I'm pretty neurotic. Okay. All right. What do you got? Number five. Okay, great

[00:24:26] Amit: one. Everything we've talked about so far has been career and acting. So, uh, let me close out number five with best man.

So his wedding after Gilda Radner in 1991 to Karen, which we'll get to in this whole category, his nephew, Jared, who we talked about, who Stephanie knows was his best man. And in 2015, the favor was reciprocated and Gene Wilder was his nephew's best man. I mean, I just love that. It's heartwarming. I mean, could you imagine, Michael, like, if your nephew asked you to be their best

[00:25:00] Michael: man?

Yeah. I mean.

[00:25:01] Amit: I mean, that's, it's just great. It just, it provides such richness to familiness beyond a parent child relationship that this deep, deep friendship, uh, that just has that much power.

[00:25:13] Michael: Good one. All right, let's recap. So, thing number one, Steph said accomplished swordsman. Did not see that coming.

Thing number two, I said precision. Thing number three, you said... Patience. Thing number four, I said great creative collaborations. And thing number five, you said best man. All right, let's take a break. Let's move on. Category three. Malkovich, Malkovich. This category is named after the movie, Being John Malkovich, in which people take a little portal into John Malkovich's mind, and they can have a front row seat to his experiences.

All right, I chose one that is fairly well known, but I want to draw attention to it anyway, and it's about a young Frankenstein argument. What Gene Wilder says is the only argument that he ever had with Mel Brooks. So Gene Wilder wrote Young Frankenstein and got Mel Brooks to direct it and then they kind of worked on it together And they were writing on it together, but it started off as Gene Wilder's vision There is a moment in that movie with that Gene Wilder.

There's a scene. He really wanted to include he was fierce about it and Mel Brooks said This is a dumb scene. This doesn't belong here. The whole movie's gonna fall apart. Absolutely not. And Gene is saying, no, goddammit, it needs to be in there. It has to be in there. It absolutely belongs in there. He said, are you crazy?

It's frivolous. I started to argue, and then I argued for about 20 minutes till I was at least red in the face. I think it may have been blue. And all of a sudden, he says, okay, it's in. And I said, well, why did you put me through this? He said, because I wasn't sure if it was right or not. And if you didn't argue for it, I knew it would be wrong.

But if you really argued, I knew it was right. For what it's worth, the scene is Different types who wear a day coat Pants with stripes are cut away Coat perfect fits Bring them relief! That is

[00:27:09] Amit: the only scene I know from the

[00:27:11] Michael: movie. And one of the great audio clips of all time. Here's why it's my Malkovich moment.

It gets back to that thing I was saying a second ago about creative collaboration. You and I occasionally will engage in, I think, really healthy arguments around You know what we want to be doing with this show and what makes great creativity happen, you know, and and I love that There comes a feeling when you're engaged in a really intense argument Especially if you have very different points of view on a thing Where when somebody does acquiesce when somebody does say, okay, that makes sense There's a kind of relief that comes with like, oh i'm gonna get the thing in there that I think I really care about And I think really matters and I love that this happened In this, what is ultimately a very iconic moment of an incredibly iconic movie, with one of the most iconic directors, I love that this is how it happens.

That's how creative magic happens, is in, you know, respectful but intense argumentation and dialogue and back and forth about a thing. And I want to be behind the eyes when Mel Brooks says, Okay, fine. Go out there and sing fucking putting on the Ritz with the Frankenstein monster. So that's my Malkovich.

That's great.

[00:28:27] Amit: So I'm taking us ahead almost 40 years into 2003. Gene Wilder had had all but left acting by the late 90s. A few small cameos here and there. Uh, I don't think he'd done anything at all for a period of about four years until 2003, he decides to do a guest spot on Will Grace. He appeared on three episodes, which actually later won him an Emmy for a...

guest appearance, and I'm going to provide some context here. So are you, are you familiar with, uh, Gene Wilder's praying as a kid? I

[00:29:00] Michael: am. This is, this is kind of a weird neurotic, uh, uh, tic. A tic, it doesn't even do it justice. He felt this like insane compulsion to pray sometimes for as much as 30 minutes at a time.

He'd be struck by it. In his autobiography, he describes it as his demon. This demon would show up. This is like when he's in college. He'd be walking into a building and be like, Oh God, the demons here. Could not help it, he'd have to stop and pray. It

[00:29:25] Amit: showed up as young as eight years old. Yes. And the explanation he gave for that was, I prayed because I wasn't a person that felt that they deserved joy.

Right. I'm freezing on that. That he prayed because he felt like he didn't deserve joy. So 2003, his career is all but over. He's guest starring on Will Grace as Mr. Steve. So Mr. Stein comes in and his name is on the building of the law firm that Will works for. He returns for these episodes because he's long left the firm, uh, but he's come back for some sort of savior moment.

And there is a scene with Gene Wilder and Eric McCormick, who played Will, and they are kind of doing this self affirmation scene where Gene Wilder is saying, I am Stein. I am Stein. I am Stein. They, you know, and they're repeating after each other. And then Eric McCormick as well, completely breaks and says, I am Frankenstein, uh, a throwback to young Frankenstein 40 years ago.

But this is what happens that you don't see in that episode is Gene Wilder cracks the hell.

[00:30:37] Michael: Uh, he completely

[00:30:38] Amit: breaks character and bursts out into radiant joy at the age of 70, 71 at a reference to a work that he did 40 years ago. And here's a guy that does not identify as a... Comedic actor says he struggles with joy and is bursting out laughing, radiating with it on the set of Will and Grace in 2003.

Here we have a man at the very capstone of his career, which was actually, let me asterisk this with one more thing. This was actually his last ever onscreen performance. And he bursts out radiating with joy at a reference to something he did 40 years earlier.

[00:31:21] Michael: Welcome. What makes this a Malkovich for you?

[00:31:24] Amit: It is the unfurling of the entire body into joy. It is unfurling all of that, all of the history and the pent up confusion, the affliction. And I just see it erupting in that moment. I'm not saying it resolved. I'm not saying it didn't, you know, continue to be. Part of his character, but the single moment of it erupting

[00:31:45] Michael: and unraveling.

The outlet of it, the release of it, yes. At that point in life,

[00:31:49] Amit: too. Yeah,

[00:31:51] Michael: yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh yeah, shit yeah. Love it. Category four, love and marriage. How many marriages? Also, how many kids? And is there anything public about these relationships? I'm going to go through this kind of fast because... I think you have to.

I think you kind of have to. Four marriages, two divorces, one death. So the first wife, Mary Mercy, or anything, 1960 to 65. Gene was ages 27 to 32. That ended in a divorce. In his memoir, it sounds like they never should have been married in the first place. Second wife, Mary Joan Schultz, 1967 to 1974. Gene is ages...

34 to 41, so 67 to 74 for what it's worth. That's the producers and young Frankenstein. Blazing Saddles is in there as is Willy Wonka. So this is kind of peak Gene Wilder. Mary Jo had a child from a previous relationship who very early on started calling Gene daddy. And he was a very involved step father.

to this child for most of her upbringing. They later had a falling out of which we don't know much about, but it is known that they didn't speak in later years. We can talk more about that in a sec. Third wife, this is Gilda Radner, Jeans age 51. Gilda Radner dies of ovarian cancer. Jean is 56 when she died.

So this is kind of the most famous relationship in a way. And then the fourth wife, Karen Boyer, they married when Jean was 58. And they were together until his death at age 83. So roughly 25 years. No biological children. But he did adopt Catherine. He did adopt Catherine, yes. Mary Jo's daughter. That's right.

And we've talked a lot about Jared, like a son. Correct. Gene Wilder had a, uh, a sister. And I believe that, uh, Jared is his sister's child. So, here's what I took. As I read his memoir and did the research, the first two wives, I think, were kind of, I don't want to say mistakes, but I don't think he was right with himself yet.

His memoir is interesting because he weaves it with these conversations with his therapist, and his therapist saying, you know, he's sort of asking his therapist, should you be in this relationship or not? And his therapist is like, I think you know the answer to that. It does sound like part of the falling out with Mary Jo, the second wife, might have been around infidelity.

The Gilda Radner relationship, it's funny, I, you know, I, Steph pointed this out, there is an important legacy aspect. I want to talk about the perception that she was the love of his life. I think those two looked great together to the public, because they kind of feel like a match. Yeah, you want it to work.

But there's a lot of argumentation in there. Gene Wilder says in later interviews, And really, you've fallen in

[00:34:38] Amit: love with so many

[00:34:39] Michael: people in your life.

[00:34:40] Amit: No.

[00:34:41] Michael: I've fallen in like with a lot of people. I've fallen in lust with a lot of people. But I haven't fallen in love with a lot of people. It didn't sound like he was ready for love until age 58, until the final marriage.

He talks about, I've never been in love like this before. That he does enough work on himself that he earns his way to a loving, healthy relationship. But I think he's a troubled guy. I mean, I think that's kind of obvious, right? I mean, there's a real sensitivity about him that's sort of unmistakable.

[00:35:13] Amit: You don't play a neurotic perfectly without it being in

[00:35:15] Michael: use.

Totally, right? And you can verify this through the research, but there was nothing surprising when I learned that Gene Wilder had had You know, intense therapy and, you know, mental afflictions and what sounds like the disease of depression at times.

[00:35:30] Amit: Yeah, so I think, I think what you're saying is it took the guy a long time to kind of see clearly.

I think that's what I'm taking from it. Like, I think you used a phrasing at the beginning. It's like the first two wives weren't right. It's actually, no, he wasn't right. The guy had a long haul to really get clarity. I guess it's just, it's just a useful example. I mean, he ended up happy. He ended up using the words I have happier than I've ever been once he's at his fourth marriage.

So that's what I see about it is it's all timing. You've had incredible career

[00:36:06] Michael: success. You've had high highs, you've had tragedy in your

[00:36:09] Amit: life. And, and when you, you seem like you're in a really good place. Now you're happy. You know, that made me feel good. Cause I just, I want you to be

[00:36:15] Michael: happy.

[00:36:15] Amit: So. I'm happier

[00:36:17] Michael: than I've ever been in my life.

[00:36:18] Amit: That's fantastic. Well, that's, that makes...

[00:36:23] Michael: On the desirability front... I want personally to sort out some of that stuff earlier on, I guess, but I'm also like happy he found it and it does look genuine by the later stage of his life. I don't know, I think what you said there a second ago about it being an important model.

I think that's right. I mean, I think I want to believe that, you know, great relationships are possible at any stage of life. And it certainly sounds like he found a committed, loving partner with whom to grow old, even if, you know, four marriages at first blush is sort of like, oof, four marriages, I'm sure is the lot, guy,

[00:36:58] Amit: you know?

Exactly. I mean, this goes back to patience, and it takes a long time. Sucks, and it's possibly shitty, and we don't know, is the heart's broken in the process.

[00:37:08] Michael: Terry Garr has come out and said Gene Wilder was a jerk, and they had a fling of some sort. I couldn't find a whole lot of other evidence, but I don't see, this stands in contrast to Leonard Cohen, where his ex girlfriends were like, I'll always love him, and I'll, you know, it just didn't work out for us, or whatever.

This didn't have that feeling, too. It did have a little bit of... I am looking to be solved in a relationship, and I've got these inner demons, so much so that when I was younger, I felt the compulsion to pray. And, I mean, his inner conflict is right on his sleeve, feels like, to me. All right, let's move on.

Category five, net worth. 20 million! Was that higher or lower than you thought? Actually, it felt about right. One thing that's, and I think we'll get to this in the next category, he's in some really successful movies. And movies that have come to have an incredibly long shelf life. But, as you mentioned earlier, you know, Producers was not a blockbuster success.

Willy Wonka was basically a flop. And his star power kind of peaks in the 70s before, you know, the age of blockbusters and You're making crazy, crazy, crazy money in movies, I think. So, you know, I actually really like this number. It may be a little high, but, you know, it feels about right for Gene

[00:38:24] Amit: Wilder.

Yeah, it does seem about right, and I think you hit the nail on the head. He was of a different era. When bankrolls really started was about the time that he voluntarily left 90s. But he did find other creative pursuits, right? He did even attempt to write pure fiction novels. He became a painter. You know, he had a very Donna Summer like existence.

[00:38:46] Michael: First time anybody said that, but I agree. Okay, shall we move on? Category 6, Simpsons Saturday Night Live or Halls of Fame. This category is a measure of how famous a person is. We include both guest appearances on SNL or The Simpsons, as well as impersonations. Okay, you ready for this? Mm hmm. Our category completely fell apart.

Oh. 0 for 4. No way! Yes. Simpsons, there is a Goose Gladwell episode, which is a parody of Gene Wilder's version of Willy Wonka, but that's as close as you get. Okay. And that's Willy Wonka, that's not Gene Wilder. There's no SNL, even if he did marry a former cast member in Gilda Radner. He was never on Arsenio Hall, no surprise there.

And then... Kind of shockingly, he does not have a Hollywood star. Here's what's weird, though, to the point of fame and our category completely failing us here. The more I think about it, the more shocking it is how much name recognition Gene Wilder still has for All generations, like people really remember this man, which is surprising given that again, his peak was really in the late 60s, early 70s.

Some of it is Willy Wonka for sure, because he talks about acquiring these new generations of fans, you know, and he's like, every three or four years, they're coming up to me and they, Love to come up to me on the street and it sounds like he actually sort of delights in that star sighting experience. So some of it is like the actual movies tend, uh, just have an unusually long shelf life.

I mean, my kids have seen Willy Wonka and like it, you know. But yeah, I, I, I was surprised that we went 0 for 4 here.

[00:40:25] Amit: Yeah, the fact that we're even talking about him here in 2023 and he really hasn't produced anything since, um, the 90s with the exception of three episodes of Will and Grace in 2003, uh, yeah, that,

[00:40:37] Michael: that really speaks to it.

Yeah. Category 7, Over Under. In this category, we look at the life expectancy for the year somebody was born to see if they beat the house odds and as a measure of grace. So, the life expectancy for a man born in the U. S. in 1933 is 61. 7 years. He lived to 83, so roughly 22 years over, I would also say extremely, I said linear aging.

It's almost like asymptotic aging. Like he seems to become an adult somewhere in the, I don't know, early sixties, mid sixties, and his appearance really doesn't age a whole lot for the next 40,

[00:41:17] Amit: 50 years. Yeah. When he's 30, he looks 60 he looks 30.

[00:41:21] Michael: Totally a hundred percent.

[00:41:23] Amit: I kind of love the final chapter of Gene Wilder, deliberately outside of the spotlight, still being creative in much smaller pursuits, not core

[00:41:32] Michael: to He painted.

Yeah. And his memoir comes out in like the mid 2000s, 2003, 2004, and actually was super successful. Like, he really did the rounds and people were a lot of praise for that book.

[00:41:43] Amit: Uh, he wrote fiction. Lived in Connecticut, didn't do much, just kind of lived quietly with a hell of a resume and 20 million. And, you know, we've seen people like Leonard Cohen, you know, really just playing right up until the end.

Gene Wilder didn't do that. So what I think we're seeing is two different flavors of a way to live into your 80s when you have a very strong middle of life career and either one of them can be

[00:42:11] Michael: Uh, I do think we should briefly mention that he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's. The family kept this from the public.

It was about three years before he died that he was diagnosed. The family, I read this in an article, they emphasized that, quote, never stole his ability to recognize those that were closest to him. to him, nor did it take command of his central, gentle, life affirming core personality. It took enough, but not that.

And there's also this quote from the same article. It's a doctor who's familiar with the same situation. What struck all of us was the fact that because Mr. Wilder appears to have gotten an early diagnosis, he was able to have discussions with his family and be a part of the decision making process. So I think he was diagnosed with Alzheimer's early and then it accelerated fast and the last three years are pretty rough.

Let's take another break. Category 8. This is where we get to the more introspective questions of what we think it would have been like to have been this person. First of these categories, man in the mirror. What did they think about their own reflection? I've got a take. I'm excited. But I want to hear what you've got to say first.

[00:43:22] Amit: It's, it's confounding to me because everything says like the wiry haired Gene Wilder. So he's always known for being neurotic looking, even when he's not neurotic acting, which seems to be, uh, you know, almost an insulting way to kind of go through life. When Steph talked about Mel Brooks first identifying him, he's like, you have a funny look to you.

And so like, he's just receiving all these messages all the time of like, you're funny looking. Yet at the same time, like he's at times a sex symbol, he's at times attractive. These people that he's been in relationships with and all are really universally

[00:43:57] Michael: beautiful people. Yeah, and he has this like tenderness and like sweetness and I think like precision, you know, I mean, I think that there is a deliberate quality that is probably perceived as confidence at times, but I mean, he's full of contradictions.

He is both attractive and repellent simultaneously. People talk about that. I mean, Willy Wonka is a great example of, you know, you don't trust him and you want to hug him. That's kind of incredible, but, but, but magnetic in both directions, you know?

[00:44:26] Amit: Yeah. So I think, you know, kind of like I said with Leonard Cohen is.

Take somebody with neuroticism, and I don't think Gene Wilder is to the extent that Leonard Cohen's was. And the mirror can be a nice refuge, and I think these signs of validation that we talked about with Gene Wilder are wholly applicable here. And I think the other clue that I get is he's a body actor, too.

This is a guy that was, you know, over 40 playing Willy Wonka and doing somersaults. He is vibrant. It's not like he's standing in front of the mirror and just staring and, like, turning his head. This is an animated... Body guy and I see a guy that celebrates his entirety.

[00:45:01] Michael: I saw some great stuff on Willy Wonka that I just want to get in here real quick.

Peter Sellers apparently like begged to be in that movie. All of the Monty Python pythons were considered for the role. There was a lot of people who wanted that role and he would not take it unless he could do exactly what you talked about, the somersaults. The first time we see that character, he comes out with a cane.

As he approaches the gate, he throws the cane, does a somersault, and does a, Ta da! Here I am. And he insisted on being able to do that because he said, This character, you need to know right at the beginning, you cannot trust him. But you're saying you think he likes his reflection. That's where I landed. I had a different angle in.

I said, the hair. The frizzy hair. You mentioned this at the outset. There's something unbelievably unique about that frizzy hair. And he rocked it for 50 years in the limelight. I mean, rocked it essentially for 83 years as far as I can tell. Owning that hair, you know, and being like, this is the hair we're going to go with and it's going to frizz out.

When that's not in vogue. I don't think it's ever been in vogue. Right. And yet, it's like, this is who I am and what I am. For all of the obvious neuroticism and clear insecurities, I think that there is a little bit of self aware tenderness that, you know, says I'm okay and this hair tells me I'm okay. I'm okay.

When I look in the mirror. Kind of in your Leonard Cohen vein, but yes. Yeah, I like that, I like that angle. It's all about the hair. Maybe I'm just jealous because I'm a bald man now. I mean, would I take that frizzy hair? I don't know if it's

[00:46:37] Amit: desirable, but... If it can be uniquely yours, and you can rock it in a way that nobody else has, absolutely

[00:46:43] Michael: you would.

I think you just talked me into my next Halloween costume. Ha ha! Category 9! Outgoing message. Like Man in the Mirror, how do we think they felt about the sound of their own voice when they heard it on an answering machine or outgoing voicemail? Also, would they have used the default setting or would they record their outgoing voicemail themselves?

Well, what do you got? What do you got? I was gonna say,

[00:47:03] Amit: I think he sings it. Oh, it's Outgoing Voicemail? Yeah, this is one of the things I wanted to squeeze, like, kind of into the five things I love about you. But, like, this is a very unique thing about him. Being a guy that did start on stage in Broadway, he's a musical actor.

Like, Willy Wonka and the Chocolate Factory is a musical. Young Frankenstein kind of became a musical. I think even parts of Blazing Saddles did. The guy's got a great... Singing voice, his talking voice, you know, kind of fits all of the neuroticism that we talked about, but he's got range.

[00:47:36] Michael: The talking voice is incredible, too.

I mean, the way he can then go down, like, there's a soothing, comforting quality when he decides to use it. It's been time storing. That is sort of insane. I mean, it's really, really, really powerful. It's one of the more distinctive qualities about him. So, I think he liked it. That's funny. You say he probably would have sung on the voicemail.

I agree with that. I don't think he would have spoken. I don't think he would have said, you've reached Gene Wilder. Cause there's something like holding you back at a distance about Gene Wilder. You know, there's some walls up, but I could see him singing it. So I, I really like that answer.

[00:48:13] Amit: Yeah. I think that's where it kind of like the, the character of Willy Wonka does pervade the person of Gene Wilder in those walls and these defenses.

And I think we're just articulating an example of how it could play out.

[00:48:26] Michael: All right. Category 10 regrets, public or private. What we really want to know is what, if anything, kept this person awake at night. Okay, I got two. This is the one I've been kind of saving. We already mentioned the estranged daughter.

Um, who seems to have said, like, I don't want anything to do with you, Gene, because of him betraying wife number two, Mary Jo. Like, the way she comes up in the memoir, there's clearly some things not being said, but there's also obvious love there. It's a surprising thing, and I think that we don't know enough.

But I think that there is some real heartbreak for him around the cessation of that relationship, the ending of it. This is the one I really wanted to talk about, though. I feel like this has come up on a different episode. Role choice. He is, as we talked about with Steph, an actor, not a comedian. And he's, like, Pretty emphatic about that.

Um, but most of his non comedy movies are either flops or they're forgettable. And I, you, you gotta wonder if there just wasn't something else he could have put his stamp on that wasn't a comedy. I get the feeling he kind of wishes that had happened. His, it's funny because I think his timing as an actor is incredibly On the money, but I think his timing in life He's a few decades early like he would have if he were a little bit younger I could have seen him on like an hbo drama, but he's kind of a little You know, he's a little elderly by the time hbo really gets going But I could have seen it, like, he has such talent, that I feel like, How come there is no great dramatic role of his?

Or how come there's no great movie that is a drama that Gene Wilder is in? That we sort of applaud him for doing things that are not... In a comedic context. So he

[00:50:21] Amit: could have had, like, a Tom Hanks spin. Absolutely, yes. And I mean, he's got... He's got all the ingredients for

[00:50:27] Michael: it, I think. He's got all the ingredients for it.

I sort of... Or even voiceover work, right? I think he would have been great as a voice in a Pixar movie. And maybe he was approached about that and just never did it. I really wonder if he doesn't regret some risk. You know, some attempt to leap into something else.

[00:50:47] Amit: And this goes back to the debate we were having around the first line of the obituary, is he is a person that entered acting not to be in comedy, and throughout it, he sort of stuck to like, you know, I'm not a comedy actor, I'm an actor that's in comedies.

But I think your point is there's no, there's no hard proof of it. Well, where is the pure acting blockbuster? Or the pure acting pure success? There's lots of stages and, and smaller things. What did you have in terms

[00:51:11] Michael: of

[00:51:11] Amit: regrets? So, um, the alliance with Richard Pryor, I certainly don't think he regrets it, they made fantastic work together, it's widely known they weren't best friends off screen, but they didn't really have any tension, but by pairing so close to Richard Pryor through the 80s, they were a duo, and there were some missed opportunities there, and I think the biggest one that's talked about was trading places, which eventually started in Murphy and Dan Aykroyd, Was the, the original conception was for that to be Richard Pryor and Gene Wilder.

But this is. That would have worked. Yeah. That would have worked. But then this is, um, right around when Richard Pryor had his big cocaine fire accident. And so they, they

[00:51:52] Michael: couldn't do it. I watched an interview with the two of them after See No Evil, Hear No Evil came out. I think Gene Wilder actually was interested in friendship and Richard Pryor wasn't capable of it.

And I think Richard Pryor in that interview I saw seems to like, kind of know that a little bit, but yes, they were not friends off stage. You kind of want them to be, and, and it seems like they should have been, but all of the collaboration is on the screen. All right. Category 11, good dreams, bad dreams, bad.

Let's move on. I was actually

[00:52:24] Amit: going to agree with you. I mean, I think we, We hit all the corners of working in a mental

[00:52:30] Michael: hospital, but it's awesome. It's so obvious. Like, you look into those blue eyes and it is there. This is James Gandolfini like in its hauntedness. Totally. Totally. And I think, actually, there's some other Gandolfini comparisons in terms of emotions like right there.

And range, for that matter. Like, You know, glee and despair and rage. I mean, nobody can scream like Gene Wilder.

[00:52:55] Amit: Totally. And this is, but I, I will make the case that this is the Gene Wilder that we know and saw mostly when you see him, uh, on Conan in, I think it was 2005, 2006, right? When his book came out, I saw clear eyes.

[00:53:08] Michael: I agree with that. Actually. I agree with that, Amit. And he's definitely on the talk show circuit and seems very at peace in that press junket. He was very composed in that piece with himself, usually. I

[00:53:20] Amit: mean, when we talk about this category where we're choosing a binary response, the fact of it all is that it's on a continuum.

And I think what we're pointing out is, yes, it did seem like a very large part of his career trajectory was That look in the eye, that heaviness, that perhaps unresolved, but seems like a pretty good ending and a pretty good resolution.

[00:53:39] Michael: Okay. Category 12. Second to last category, cocktail, coffee, or cannabis.

This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity? This may be a question of what kind of drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person. Or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them we are most curious about.

Cannabis is tempting here for the laughs. There are few actors, comedians, who can make me belly laugh and stay in stitches like Gene Wilder. So, I, that kind of like, the first time you get high giggles, I, I, I, I kinda, like it's very tempting to go cannabis here because I would love to just like fucking lose my shit laughing with Gene Wilder.

I ended up going with coffee. I forget the episode it was, but I think it was one of our early ones. You talked about. Getting a cup of coffee and going for a walk with somebody. I loved that scene. I like the idea of getting a latte or something and walking through Central Park with Gene Wilder on a, you know, sort of nice fall afternoon.

I think I would just like to walk and talk and hang out. I don't know that there's things that I want him to teach me about me, you know, but I do feel like I've known other men and women, I guess, where I perceive a deep sensitivity. There's, there's something about his, like, emotional vulnerability, that I think I'd like to sort of, like, actually get to know a little bit.

Because, ultimately, it might teach me something about myself. You know, I think that there is something to be learned through osmosis, from just, like, hanging out on a nice day. I'm not after anything, necessarily, here, except proximity. But I, that's why I went coffee.

[00:55:30] Amit: Okay. Well, I hope you're enjoying your profundity, uh, because Gene and I, I think are just getting high and singing show tunes.

Yeah. I mean, I think I want, uh, you know, I think I want pure imagination sung to me, like under the influence.

[00:55:45] Michael: I'll drop him off at the apartment after our walk and,

[00:55:49] Amit: okay. But there's something really nice, I think, in those movies, in those early movies, how he moves from dialogue into song, and I guess it's, it's a bit of a dream that that would be the hangout.

You know, is that you have real conversation and real elevating dialogue and getting to know each other. And. Connecting on a deep level and then occasionally just break into song. And that's kind of the dream that I'm having right now when thinking about being in the presence of Dr. Frankenstein and Willy Wonka and, uh, who's

[00:56:18] Michael: it, Leo?

Or the Waco Kid. Let's not forget that.

[00:56:21] Amit: Yes. So all four of them combined, they, they can show up separately and sing separately. They can each have their own, uh, little vape pen. I don't know, but that's what I'm

[00:56:30] Michael: asking for. All right. Well, we've made it to our final category, the Vanderbeek, named after James Vanderbeek, who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life.

Hommett, do you want to know how there's life?

[00:56:46] Amit: I, I think I had a lean, as we've talked about, we, we try not to have a lean going into it. But when I measure this all out, I, I think I kind of like it. You know, here's a guy that, um, didn't really want to be a, comedic actor. He just, he did want to be an actor, but he found success in being a comedic actor and it became a career and one that he left and lived in peace with.

And so I think the life that he led is, is not that dissimilar to most of middle class America. It's just his job happened to be as a comedic actor rather than as a vice president at some corporation, which is not that bad. I mean, that's why we're doing this show. is how to navigate the ups and downs of that type of life through these other metaphors.

But I think he had really the closest to that type of life. There were, you know, this trial and error, perhaps he didn't, he wasn't ready for love until 58. Great. We need more examples of that. We need people to talk about that more and accept it. I think in absence of having children, I, I don't like this stepdaughter story.

I love the relationship with the nephew and here's a person that left real legacy, right? If nothing else, if it weren't just for Willy Wonka, if that's it, you know, this is. still something that's, I think, generationally a very important and significant life. And it comes down to how I saw it ending. You and I talk about the upward staircase, and, you know, if what I saw was a radiance and outburst of joy in 2003 when he's over age 70 on the set of Will and Grace, and then winning an Emmy for it, and then going on Conan or Letterman a couple of years later and saying at the age of 73, That I have never been more happy in my life.

Damn, that's desirable. So yes, I want your life to be milder.

[00:58:39] Michael: Okay. I love where you went with that. That was pretty 50 50 going in on this and I'm still feeling pretty 50 50 now. I started to talk a minute ago about sensitivity and I have a conflicted relationship around the idea of being sensitive. And I do think that it is, he is sort of next level sensitive.

There's a part of me that's. Scared by that, you know, I've been described as sensitive before and I've sometimes taken it to, I've mostly taken it to be an insult because I can be thin skinned. Somebody says I'm stupid and it gets under, gets, it hurts and I think he hurts easily. In some ways, you know, I, you, you kind of feel like the pain right below the surface is very real and available and sort of ever present.

I don't know that it's necessarily, there's some manifestations of it in terms of diagnosable mental health conditions, but more than anything, it's sort of like, it's hard to tell, are you hurting a lot and is your upward staircase about finding relief? You know, and a pathway through the pain. It is interesting to sort of compare him and Leonard Cohen that way.

But that sensitivity scares me, Amit. It's sort of like how we were talking earlier about I'm not sure what patience is. I'm not sure exactly what my ideal is in terms of what it means to be sensitive. There's a part of me that wants to be a tough guy. And wants to be immune to insults, or to be a zen master, right?

And then there's another part of me that feels like to be sensitive is actually to be honest and to be real, and to be looking at the world in a truthful way. I also don't know how to look at Gene Wilder's traits, in terms of precision, in relationship to this question of... You know, how much pain is he carrying around?

How sensitive is the guy, really? I do like the upward staircase here, and the legacy is incredible, but there's something about the inner life that scares me, and I wish I were a little bit more courageous, I guess, and willing to say, yes, it's worth all that, but there's something I see here that I don't know if I could handle it.

And I certainly don't know if I would have what it takes to sort of take whatever that is and channel it into talent, much less, you know, long lasting healthy relationships. Even though it looks great on the screen, I think the inner life, it looks hard to me. Something about it looks hard to me. There's something that scares me, and there's something that gives me pause.

So, no, I don't want your life, Gene Wilder. I'm right there, though. I'm right there. Those are

[01:01:35] Amit: the best ones, the right there ones. That's where you're gonna keep thinking. That's where it's gonna unfold later. You know, but it's, it's in there. Setting

[01:01:43] Michael: Gene Wilder aside for a minute, what I always value about our conversations in these shows is, you know, patience, sensitivity.

These are words that, like, I need to think about. I need to think about what are my ideals for myself. in terms of those qualities or, uh, emotional states. And am I trying to fight for some sort of state of denial, or am I ready to surrender into the events of the universe and the emotional truth of my inner life?

And those are good words to start with to try and attack those questions. So, you know, ultimately, it's not about the Van Der Beek, always. It's about, you know, what can we take away? And that's what I'm taking away. Okay. Amit, you are Gene Wilder. You have died and have ascended to the pearly gates where you're meeting St.

Peter, the universal proxy for the afterlife. You have an opportunity to make the pitch for your great contribution to the stream of life. The floor is yours.

[01:02:43] Amit: I'm also Jerome Silberman, which was the name I was born with, and maybe I'm gonna just take it back before I go through those gates. In my book, I talk about the fountain.

In front of the Plaza Hotel in New York City. I say, to get past it, you have to walk to the left or the right. And that whatever choice you make could change your life. Man, that is scary. Here's the good news. They could both work out. They could both work out beautifully, perfectly, and well beyond your imagination.

With patience, with acceptance, with moving through, trust, faith, imagination, and a little bit of song. Any path can be the right one. Let me in.

[01:03:46] Michael: Thanks for listening to this episode of Famous Gravy. Thanks also to Steph Okupniak for joining us. Her podcast is called A Life Lived. We'll link to it in the show notes. Famous Gravy listeners, if you're interested in participating in our opening quiz where we reveal the dead celebrity, please send us an email.

You can reach us at hello... At Famous and gravy.com. If you're enjoying our show, please tell your friends. You can find us on Twitter. We're also now on Threads. Our handle is at Famous and Gravy, and we have a newsletter which you can sign up for on our website, famous eng gravy.com. Famous and Gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne.

This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss, original theme music by Kevin Strang. Thank you so much for listening. See you next time.