057 Cool Hand Dylan transcript (Luke Perry)

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[00:00:00] Amit: This is Famous Gravy, the show where we search for living insights from dead celebrities. Now for the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

[00:00:09] Michael: This person died 2019, age 52. Before his breakout role, his main credits had been a handful of episodes on the soap opera Another World. Megastardom was unexpected.

[00:00:23] Friend: John Travolta?

[00:00:24] Michael: Not John Travolta, who is still with us. He starred opposite Alison Hannigan in a 2004 stage version of When Harry Met Sally.

[00:00:35] Friend: Um, I have no idea. This is really, like, this is so not my remit at all. If they were in Buffy, were they in Buffy?

[00:00:44] Michael: In recent years, he made dozens of television appearances, including regular roles on the prison drama Oz, the post apocalyptic series Jeremiah, and the crime drama Body of Proof.

[00:00:56] Friend: Like, you could not have picked the worst person. I don't watch TV at all. I think you get to know this person. I do know who that is. We can talk about him if you like.

[00:01:12] Michael: He played Dylan McKay, a bad boy teenager who struggled with alcoholism on the hit TV show Beverly Hills 90210.

[00:01:21] Friend: Luke Perry? Is that it?

[00:01:23] Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Luke Perry.

[00:01:28] Archival: We made a promise going into this. We said, look guys, nobody expects that we're going to do anything other than these 13 episodes. If by some chance we surprised the world and put out a quality program that people want to keep watching, let's remember how we got there and let's remember what makes the show so good.

Like all television series, 902 will come and it will go, you know, there's going to come a day when they're going to say, that's it. That's your last episode. And um, We start slappin each other when somebody gets too big headed, you know. But yeah, you know, a year ago I was shoveling asphalt, and a year from now I could be doing it again.

I think it keeps a good perspective on things, as

long as you remember that.

[00:02:09] Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

[00:02:11] Amit: And my name is Amit Kapoor.

[00:02:13] Michael: And on this show we believe that... The best years might lie ahead. On each episode, we choose a celebrity who died in the last 10 years and review their quality of life. We go through a series of categories in order to extract wisdom and inspiration.

And then, ultimately answer the question, would I want that life? Today, Luke Barry. Died 2019, age 52. Ugh. Yeah, I know. Yeah, it still hurts. It does. It's been, it's like, what, it's 2023 now, so it's been four years? Yeah. We're gonna do this justice. Let's get right into it. Category 1, grading the first line of their obituary.

Luke Perry, who burst onto the television scene and countless fan magazine covers in 1990 as one of the core cast members of the Fox drama Beverly Hills 90210, then went on to a busy career in television and film that included, most recently, the CW series Riverdale, died on Monday in Los Angeles. He was 52.

Wow. Yeah. That was my reaction. Nicely done. Like this is, this is on deadline. This is a hard one. I thought this was like kind of great. You know, sometimes you work really well under pressure. I feel like the Obit writers did a lot here under pressure.

[00:03:32] Amit: Yeah. You know, I'm struggling to find the big flaws

[00:03:34] Michael: right off the bat.

Yeah, right. Okay. So television scene burst on, burst on. Totally he did. And the word burst is excellent here, right? Yes.

[00:03:43] Amit: It's a very 1990

[00:03:44] Michael: word. Countless fan magazine covers. Bravo for getting that in my god, they had to get that in because he was everywhere. Yeah from 19 Yeah often right, but like you could not go to a grocery store or an airport stand and not see pictures of luke perry How many grocery

[00:04:02] Amit: stores and

[00:04:03] Michael: airport stands were you at?

More than you would think okay one of the core cast members of the fox drama they got that in 90210 and I think that's important because 90210 is so critical to Fox TV history, then went on to a busy career. I like the word busy career. That's where I

[00:04:21] Amit: really liked it. Yeah. Yeah. Because very often we see the pigeonholing.

Yeah. We get angry sometimes when they forget the pigeonholing like the one thing that you should know them for. Right. But this is a great contrast. Busy.

[00:04:33] Michael: That's justice. It's absolutely justice. And

then went on television And I think that they had to point to Riverdale. Yeah. He had a complete second wave of. Fandom with that tv show that I didn't appreciate before getting ready for this episode Yes, like I didn't realize what a hit Riverdale was and how important he was to That show on and off the screen.

Yeah. Yeah, dude. Is this I mean Well,

[00:04:57] Amit: let's we we we are us we are us after all let's let's I mean what what's

[00:05:02] Michael: missing here? I was looking at you thinking is this perfect? I don't know what's missing I mean, we're gonna get into the james dean comparison. Yeah, right now. It doesn't need to be

[00:05:10] Amit: first line.

[00:05:10] Michael: No But it comes up so much that you had to consider it.

I don't know. As soon as I say that, I kind of want to step back from it. But I do think that the Midwestern background and teenage heartthrob, and, you know, sort of, like, misunderstood, you know, bad boy rebel, um, you know, his association with Dylan McKay in 90210, like, the comparisons are, are strong, right?

And made a lot of sense back then. But if we're looking for omissions, that's one consideration. Did

[00:05:39] Amit: they describe Dylan McKay or they just said one

[00:05:41] Michael: of the key cast members? They just say one of the core cast members. So they don't describe his character. I kind of like that. I think that's fine. I mean, they could have said bad boy or something like that if they wanted to, but I don't know.

I mean, I feel like there is actually a little bit more effort here to differentiate. The man from the role. Yes. Right? Because they point to two different shows. Beverly Hills 90210 and Riverdale.

[00:06:06] Amit: And the, I love the bridge. I love

[00:06:08] Michael: the bridge of Busy. I do too. Busy career that most recently included this. I, I'm not seeing major omissions here.

And what do you think? Do you, are you seeing omissions? I'm not.

[00:06:18] Amit: I'm not. I, like, this, this kind of frustrates me.

[00:06:21] Michael: Yeah, yeah, I know. I want to, I want to overanalyze and nitpick, but... I'm giving my score, man. I'm giving this a 10 out of 10.

[00:06:29] Amit: I'm gonna match you, Michael. 10 They stuck the landing. That is a first on our

[00:06:33] Michael: show.

This is Mary Lou Retton at the 84 Olympics. You and I are tough critics, and here we are both giving a perfect score. Well done. Bravo. This is what we expect. This is what we expect. We need... Somebody who's like, I'm going to get this right and this is all that needs to be said and sums it all up and perfectly encapsulates, like, who he was and what we need to know about him.

Nailed it. Bullseye. I guess we're moving on. Category two, five things I love about you. Here, Amit and I worked together to come up with five reasons why we love this person, why we should be talking about them in the first place. I kind of want to lead with something, because I just want to talk about this a lot.

Please,

[00:07:09] Amit: I'm obviously in a generous mood. I just gave a ten. Yeah, seriously. Lead, my friend.

[00:07:13] Michael: Right. I don't know if this is one thing or five things, but like what I have written down is definition of cool. You can imagine where I'm going with this. Being cool. That's pretty open ended and vague. I want to unpack Luke Perry's coolness.

As I unpack it, it may unfold into many things on my list. Because it's especially the way he absorbed fame and success. I almost want to pause here for a second. I feel like I've gotten to be a Luke Perry expert on his life because that's what we do on this show. When it comes to his work, I am a Luke Perry novice.

I was not a 90210 viewer. I haven't really seen much of Riverdale. I saw him in some of the movies that came out. But he's not, like, I think I had way more exposure to Luke Perry on the teen magazines and on, like, Entertainment Weekly, you know, news clippings or whatever than I did inside any of the TV shows.

You're

[00:08:10] Amit: lukewarm on the life's work.

[00:08:13] Michael: Yeah. But I feel like it's an important caveat. Where are you with his work? Like, what's your relationship to Luke Perry as a actor?

[00:08:20] Amit: I've seen every episode of 90210.

[00:08:21] Michael: Have you? Yeah. And you were in on it in the beginning?

[00:08:24] Amit: I was maybe like a season behind and then caught up, but then basically watching it in real time.

Well,

[00:08:29] Michael: so let me ask this, because I think this is going to influence how we talk about his coolness. What was your relationship to it at the time, and what's your relationship to it now? Uh, then,

[00:08:38] Amit: as an addiction, I didn't see it at all as a reflection of the teenager high school years I was going through.

Maybe because it was being played by people in their 20s and 30s. But, there was an addictive quality, there was sort of an aspirational in this attraction to the beauty and the rebellion, and the love triangles and all those things that were happening in their world, which were nowhere in my orbit. But there was kind of a fantasy projection.

There was that sort of marvel. What I

[00:09:05] Michael: would do to go out with Dylan McKay. I don't know, everyone says he's trouble. Well, he can trouble me all he wants. Hey, Dylan. Hey, Kelly.

[00:09:17] Amit: Bryn

[00:09:17] Michael: and I were just talking. Which do you think guys like Hmm,

[00:09:21] Amit: that's a deep question.

[00:09:23] Michael: Personally, I prefer blondes. Really? Really.

Truly. Bye, girls. What about shelf life? I think that's what I'm sort of interested in. It's dated,

[00:09:38] Amit: right? Yeah, it's dated. It's pure nostalgia for me. I don't want to like re watch and binge. I don't think anybody's re watching it and binging it. And that idea of this kind of 90s high school thing, which has faded, of Just cool and uncool.

And I think that changed a lot later as you get into Freaks and Geeks and a lot of the things that followed later with high school dramas. It was resurrected, I think, in some things, but it just doesn't, it doesn't hold up when you're an adult looking back at that. I

[00:10:05] Michael: think what I'm trying to get at is, do you consider it an important show?

It's important in TV history in terms of its influence, but in terms of how it comments or reflects our understanding of teenage life and high school life. Is there commentary there that, like, we need to look at today and know about? Yeah, in the sense

[00:10:25] Amit: that it actually did bring up emotional issues. Yeah.

Right, it wasn't just a straight slapstick comedy about teenagers. It acknowledged for the first time, maybe outside of cinema, that, you know, Adolescence is complex and full of a hell of a lot of emotional confusion and turmoil and

[00:10:44] Michael: tough relationships. Okay, the reason I wanted to ask, I think this question of the importance of what it means to be cool is never greater than it is in high school.

You know what I mean? Yeah. And so, My read of 9 0 2 1 oh is the show may have been okay without him, but you remove the Dylan McKay piece from 9 0 2 1 oh and do you really have a compelling TV show? And they did for three years and it, they did not one very good, right? Yeah. So his coolness, let's unpack that for a second.

I saw it most in the clips where how he was dealing with his level of fame. There's a level of like insane Beatlemania fanaticism around. Like, what a heartthrob he is. I mean, there are all these clips of, you know, young girls stampeding through malls to get a glimpse at him at some sighting, right?

But it's the sight of Perry in the flesh that sends fans into hysterics. Consider his appearance at a Florida mall last August. I was, I was shocked. I was, uh, I was aware that That was a situation that was going to get out of control quickly. Um, I could see a lot of people on the ground floor in front of me.

There were people on a balcony up here that were hanging over. There were people on the third balcony at the top that were hanging way out, screaming. I was afraid someone was going to fall. I said to myself, this is not worth it. I want our show to do well, but certainly not at the expense of anyone getting injured or possibly even killed.

How he dealt with that was very cool. The way he balanced a kind of even tempered humility and presence, like when he makes public appearances, the way he handles himself is really cool. There's a quote from Vanity Fair that I copied over. Has such massive fame been a kind of crisis for him? He says, quote, I've enjoyed the shit out of it.

There have been problems, but... Who am I to bitch about that? I'm not in this for my ego, and not out to become the biggest, baddest dude on the block. But I will get what's coming to me, and I will be treated with respect. It's just that simple. There's a self awareness about this guy. And like And that's like a

[00:12:53] Amit: 1992 interview, right?

We're talking about a 25

[00:12:56] Michael: year old. Totally right of 90210. Like, it's really interesting how he both expects, absorbs, and steps forward, but not too far forward. and not into a pile of disaster and, I don't know, all the trappings that come with this kind of attention and fame. It's really cool. And there's no question, like, when it comes to his coolness, that, like, even though I wasn't watching 90210, I was definitely looking at this guy being like, man, I wish I could be that cool.

Oh, yeah. And I still am. What does it mean to be cool? What does it mean to you now? How important is it now that we are in our mid 40s? And how do you think about that? I mean, this relates to the question of how you related to 90210 then and now. What does coolness mean to you now? Self acceptance. That's simple.

Okay, I just demonstrated none of that.

[00:13:44] Amit: You ask now, what does 1991 mean to me? It meant sideburns and rolled up sleeves and an old car

[00:13:50] Michael: and girls after you. But let's go a little deeper with that. Self acceptance, I mean, that's an ongoing project for everybody, right? It's, because the thing is, that's got to come from the inside out.

Like, in your heart, self acceptance. Not just projecting self acceptance, which is what most teenagers are doing. Like, everything's cool, and they look so awkward. Yes. No, it's actually

[00:14:11] Amit: having it. It's actually having it. And then, from what's birthed from that is true

[00:14:15] Michael: self expression. It's a great answer, Amit.

As soon as you say it, it's like, that was true then, that's true now. That's what it means to be cool, is to have self acceptance. So, cool and self accepting. That's my thing number one. Alright, what do you got for number two? Freddy Bird. Oh, fuck, you're stepping on me. Oh, you, you had it? Yes. Ah, well. This is my Malkovich.

[00:14:34] Amit: Is it? Yes. Are you talking about a specific instant of being Freddy Bird? Yes. That's okay. I'm not gonna step on that. Alright. Okay. I'm not ruining it. Alright. Alright, let's do this. This plays out in real time. This is what our fans, this is what our listeners need to know. Is that we don't sort this out?

Yeah, we don't sort this out. We're not editing this shit. Okay. Okay. Freddie Bird. So he was of Fredericktown High School. He was the mascot in Ohio.

[00:14:56] Michael: Rural Ohio, like farm town Ohio. Yes.

[00:14:58] Amit: So I just want to talk about the sheer fact that he was the mascot. Okay. Because I love that. Yeah. And first thing I want to point out is, do you know any people that were

[00:15:05] Michael: mascots?

I don't think so. I think I met the Stanford tree guy or gal once, but there's been many throughout the years. Uh, so one of

[00:15:13] Amit: my closest friends, you know her, was a high school mascot. No way! Yes, and I have several other friends who were also high school mascots. I challenge you to find somebody who was a mascot who is not cool as fuck.

Okay, it is a formula for An incredibly sort of self aware person, but somebody that's very, I'd say, emotionally tuned in. And I think part of the reason is the playfulness that goes in it, and the nonverbal communication that you have to do to entertain and connect with absolutely anybody, both from a distance, and...

Close

[00:15:48] Michael: by. Interesting. The performance of it brings out something.

[00:15:52] Amit: The performance of it, the stepping into a character, the being able to not be yourself. It's a wonderful acting school. Yeah. But I think specifically the playfulness and the nonverbal part of it are exceptional qualities to build up at one as an actor in Luke Perry and second, just as a character.

So Freddy Bird, number two.

[00:16:12] Michael: Okay. Uh, we will talk more about that in a later category. I love that. Number two. I'll go on to number three. I'm just gonna say Balloons on a Plane. Ah, I know the story. You know this story? Yeah. This is, okay, so he has a premature death, right? He dies at a young age and there's all this sort of outpouring.

Of all people, Colin Hanks, Tom Hanks son, Colin Hanks, comes out of the woodwork with this great story. He's on an airplane. Colin Hanks is with his wife. There are these two young children who are, you know, really having a meltdown, and the plane's been a little bit delayed, and there's some turbulence, and like, these two kids are driving everybody crazy.

This figure comes out of first class with sunglasses and a hat on, comes up to the children, and blows a balloon. Just straight up blows a balloon and ties it, and like, would you like this gift? And they both chilled the hell out, and Colin Hanks said this was Everybody on the plane was, you know, about to lose it.

And, and this, this superhero steps in, they get off the plane, they're picking up their luggage. And Colin Hanks does a double take. He's like, that guy is Luke Perry. And he goes over and, you know, introduces himself. And Colin Hanks says he's starstruck. And he's like, where did the balloon thing, where did that come from?

He's like, I always go on to an airplane with a couple of balloons, you know, in case something like this happens. That is brilliant to go onto an airplane with, I'm going to have a couple of balloons in my pocket in case some children need. You know, a little distraction and something to cheer them up because they're, they're losing it.

It's small, but it's thoughtful. And also, like, so simple. And, and just wonderful. So, I'm now gonna travel with balloons in my pocket every time I get into an airplane. We're gonna stop

[00:17:47] Amit: by the convenience store after here and I'm gonna, I'm gonna send

[00:17:50] Michael: you home with some balloons in your pocket. Wallet, keys, uh, chewing gum, balloons.

Sunglasses, balloons. Sunglasses, balloons. Exactly. Yeah. So that's

[00:17:56] Amit: my thing number three. Ooh, where to go? I've got several. I'm gonna do this, um, Father Figure, a George Michael song. Nice. He was very often described, specifically on the set of Riverdale, as the father figure. Both because he played Fred Andrews, the father, but on set, he was the father figure.

And much celebrated for that, you know, he was the one the cast looked up to, he was a mentor, and why I love it is the contrast from the Dylan McKay that we got to know, because he was almost the fatherless son, that was the character he played, and the real Luke Perry was also pretty much a fatherless son.

So he had, you know, a terrible relationship with his father, who was also biological father. Yeah, who was an abusive alcoholic. Some of that was probably easily channeled into his portrayal of Dylan McKay. Dylan McKay essentially was this bad boy, but he was also a guy that like lived on his own. His father was imprisoned or on the run from insider trading.

Yeah. So he was left with tens of millions of dollars to live in a hotel and read poetry. So, so both in real life and the character for which he is best known, he was a fatherless kid. Yeah. He progresses through life, he has two kids, by all means, from what I see, he's an excellent father. Yeah. And then he goes on and he plays a father on set and is the quintessential father figure.

Mm hmm. The ability to take what he was lacking and... Parlay that into how important he thinks it is and become the ultimate opposite of what he was missing. That's what I love about him number four.

[00:19:38] Michael: I love that. And I think I actually want to spend another minute on the word parlay. Because I really got into a place where Some of the most sort of exciting and delightful moments of my life are where I learn something about how to handle a situation in one context and then I'm able to port that over into another one, where I learned something in the experience of parenthood or marriage or friendship or a professional experience and then be like, this actually reminds me of something else I learned in a totally different context.

You know, that's how wisdom accumulates is that you've Pattern match principles and ways of being and ways of being of service across different hats you wear in your life, from your personal life into your professional life. So being a real dad and then carrying that sort of father figure like attitude onto the set of Riverdale is like, awesome.

That's awesome. That's like, that's what it's all about to me. So parlay. Okay. I think you should maybe take number five. I don't know if my number five is strong enough. Okay. I mean, I do like the pet pigs thing. That's just a factoid. You can throw that out.

[00:20:41] Amit: That can be a

[00:20:42] Michael: 4. 5. He had pet pigs. He had multiple pet pigs.

It talks about him with, among other people, Arsenio Hall. Oh, save that, sir. I will. Anyway, you go number 5. Okay, I'll

[00:20:54] Amit: take number 5, Ohio. His unconditional love for his hometown and his home state. So, he's from Fredericktown, Ohio. You know, even as he moves to Los Angeles, then later to New York, and then back to Los Angeles, as 90210 begins, but essentially Los Angeles becomes his home, he regularly returns to Ohio.

Yeah. So, Frederick Brown has a tomato day that he would often return to, and this is All Star Magazine cover Luke Perry. Yeah. Going back to his home state of Ohio. The one thing that I think I really love is that he campaigned for a man named Jerry Day. I saw this. But he went, and he actually did, like, TV promos.

for Jerry Day for the Sheriff of Frederick Town, Ohio in 2004. Yeah. Luke Perry! Yeah. I mean, what I love about it is he, he didn't forget. Like, we talked about his coolness and not wanting the trappings of fame, but he didn't yearn for home. Like, he wasn't like, I need to get back to Ohio. I need to get back to Ohio.

But he found the right way to still be. An Ohioan who is a megastar in Los Angeles. And so I love the way that he managed his ties to his hometown without being a runaway star or look at where I came from and look at where I am now.

[00:22:08] Michael: It had been really easy for him to be above it, and he wasn't, right?

And those actions really say something about his character and commitment to it. Yeah.

[00:22:17] Amit: Cause sense of place is so huge in the fluidity and the impermanence and the ever changing. Nature of this world and especially in this country and to be able to not inhabit your original place But to still respect it return to it and have it as such a big part of you Without shunning it as just something that formed you.

I think he managed

[00:22:37] Michael: that perfectly. Yeah, that's really interesting It actually segues pretty well into my Malkovich. But before we get there, let's do a recap Number one I said Cool, especially the way he absorbed fame and success, but I pointed to his even tempered quality, his humility, and his presence.

Number two, you said? Mascot. Mascot. Number three, I said balloons on a plane. Number four? Father figure. And number five? Ohio. Well done. Let's pause for a word from our sponsors. Okay, category three. Malkovich, Malkovich. This category is named after the movie Being John Malkovich, in which people can take a little portal, they go through a door, and they go down a little chute, uh, and they go right into John Malkovich's mind, where they can have a front row seat to his experiences.

I think chronologically I'm first, yes? Yes. Okay. I want to return to Freddy Bird, this mascot thing. One thing I can't figure out about him, about Luke Perry, is his relationship to the need or desire for attention. Mm hmm. You know, he talks in the interviews of like, I wanted something more when I was growing up in rural Ohio.

Well, I didn't think the guy I was was, uh, going anywhere. You know, I, I want to do something with my life. You know, I want, when my time here is up, I don't want to look back and see that I didn't do anything. You know, and by that I mean, uh, I didn't have any effect on anything else. I, I see a lot of people that let their life happen to them.

And I want to happen to my life. I don't want my life to happen to me. People talk about, like, he's not in high school drama, doesn't look like. He's not even that much of a trained actor, really, although he does get some training later on. He decides to sign up to be the mascot for the football team, Freddie Bird.

He goes so far with it that he actually has his stepfather deliver him onto the football field in a helicopter. I think, and I don't know, that, you know, he's wearing a full mascot uniform, so his face is not out there, right? He's, he's wearing a bodysuit. He's, he's hiding behind the character of Freddy Bird.

It seems exhilarating. It seems validating. It also seems kind of safe because you're behind a costume, you know, are they paying attention to me because of what I'm doing or because of how I look? And I think his looks are so unbelievably important to his success that I wonder what it feels like to be receiving that attention, to have some distance from it, and to say, I want to...

Take this to the next level, but I also want to, I think, still maintain some of that distance. Because this feels like the moment where that's clicking into place, and I also want to add to that, that this is also high school. This is when that desire for attention, the desire to be cool, and the sort of search for self acceptance is, you know, at its most pronounced in some ways.

So, he becomes self aware at some point, and he handles fame as gracefully as anybody you could imagine. So I wonder what it feels like to be Freddie Byrne in that moment. I wonder what it feels like to be dropped from a helicopter, to have all eyes on you, but it's not exactly you. Did he put that together then in a way that, you know, served him well for what was to come?

I just have curiosity about it, so that's my Malkovich. Aren't they coming, are they shouting for Dylan? They're shouting for Luke when they, uh, when you get those personal situations. Um. You gotta keep really in mind that it's not me they're coming out to see, it's this character that I play. They're screaming Luke, cause they know that's what my name is, but um, I don't, they

[00:26:28] Amit: don't really know Luke too well.

I've got a question for you, Michael. Have you, as an adult, ever gone all out for Halloween?

[00:26:35] Michael: Yes. And what did you dress as? Ah, this is not well, I mean, the most fun I ever had for Halloween is You remember the movie, um, Something About Mary? Of course. You remember, uh, Warren with the earmuffs? Yes. I went as Warren for

[00:26:49] Amit: Halloween.

Which is funny to see you wearing headphones right now. Break some veins!

[00:26:53] Michael: Shh, shh. Break some

[00:26:54] Amit: veins! How did that feel? How did that

[00:26:57] Michael: feel to Deliberating. It was so much fun. To be somebody completely else. Yeah, to be an actor, to perform behind a costume is, and I haven't done it much, but when I've done it, is exciting.

You get to be somebody else. Yeah. I mean, that's kind of what our show is about, right? Yeah. So, yeah, I mean, I, I, you know, I think that's one of the reasons we're so interested in actors, especially successful ones, is how successfully they do that and, you know, by being somebody else or a different character, you reveal something about yourself, but about all of us.

So, yeah. Okay. Does that answer the question? Yep, totally. All right. What's your,

[00:27:32] Amit: Malkovich? Okay, so I'm calling an audible here. I had one written down, but I'm doing something different because, you know, I don't read the first line of the obituary prior to coming in here. I didn't know that they were going to say magazine covers.

So in 2016, when Luke Perry turned 50, he graced the cover of AARP magazine under the headline 90250. Okay, so this is in contrast to all those magazine covers of the early 90s. All the, the Vanity Fairs and Vogues and, and teen people and, you know, he's, he's not in this, this old man type of thing. He's only 50.

Right. So, to see yourself. On the cover of AARP magazine, only at the age of 50, I want to know what he felt the message was being sent. Did he feel that it's, youth is gone, and now here we are in this next phase of life, or is it Youth is still here at 50 and everything I saw about Luke Perry and all the interviews that he gave on the talk shows all the way up and through the end.

He embraced fatherhood. Yes. He embraced his aging, but he was never an old man. No. I mean, 52 is, is, but in no one's, in no one's category, an old man. But AARP is synonymous. With age. With age. And I, uh, one, I, I hate.

[00:29:01] Michael: That. Why is this bad? What's wrong with this? What it's

[00:29:04] Amit: doing is it's supposed to be celebrating aging in retirement.

What I don't like is just the association of those letters, AARP, and what it's come to mean. It comes to mean aging. It comes to mean death is imminent. It's double meaning here in Luke Perry's case. But I don't like that. What I would do is I would drop the AA, and I would change the R from retired to rejuvenated, and just call it.

Association of Rejuvenated People. Interesting. And that's where Luke Perry belongs on the cover. Yeah. But what I really want to know is what message he thought was being sent when he looks on that cover and sees himself in contrast to the shirtless version of Dylan McKay. 28

[00:29:45] Michael: years prior. I'd love that you want to rebrand them.

We'll reach out. We'll reach out. We might, maybe we could partner with them. Okay. Shall we move on? Yes. Category four. Love and marriage. How many marriages? Also, how many kids? And is there anything public about these relationships? One marriage to Rachel Sharp in 1993. They divorced in 2003. Luke was about 27 when they married, 37 when they split.

Two kids, Jack, born 1997. You, I'm sure, saw that Jack is a professional wrestler. Ladies and gentlemen, Jungle Boy, Jack Perry. Stop! Stop! Stop right now! Uh, and then Sophie in 2000. Luke Perry was engaged to Wendy Bauer at the time of his death. They'd been together about 11 and a half years, mostly out of the limelight.

Somehow they managed to have this relationship without a ton of cameras or a ton of pictures. Images of her out there, but it's like not a relationship that got unbelievable scrutiny and she There's not a ton out there about her. Everybody was a therapist. We know that she was a therapist Yeah, uh, and I only dug so deep here Everybody was there his ex wife his children his fiancee Uh, his mother his stepfather when he died and so I it did Sound like he was a family man and surrounded by family.

So, what's it talk about here, Amit?

[00:31:07] Amit: With both Minnie and Wendy, you know, this is, especially with, with Minnie, he married her in 93. This is, this is height of Dylan McKay... Correct. Uh, craziness. Yes. And she's not an all star. Right. I think she was, uh, she had aspired to be an actor at one point. Actress, a few small roles, but was, I don't know what she worked in, but she was, she was...

[00:31:28] Michael: She was in Teen Wolf 2, apparently. I saw that on

[00:31:30] Amit: IMDb. TOO. Yeah. Okay. So, played some small roles. Aspiring actor. That's everybody in Los Angeles, right? Right. When you're running around there in your 20s. Right. So, what I gather from both of these is he went outside his circles. Yeah. And this, I think, speaks to your thing you love, number one, is this coolness about Luke Perry, he's not, um, forgive the, the term, he's, he's not a star effer.

Um. Yeah. I mean, he, he, I think had some other relationships,

[00:31:57] Michael: but I. Yeah, there was speculation about him and Madonna, Madonna, uh, he, he stepped in for some event that Elizabeth Taylor canceled on and Madonna kissed him full on the lips and there's pictures of them together. Yeah. And he lived with the Arquettes for a while and apparently, uh, fell head over heels in love with Patricia Arquette.

[00:32:13] Amit: It was. Yeah. Yeah. Deeply close with the sister also. That's correct. Of the archet. Yeah. But what I want to get back to is, um, is looking outside your circles. And I think that's a very interesting life lesson from Luke Perry. And I think you can only do that in certain categories of lifestyle. Yeah. Right.

You know, the traditional way, we're in a completely different era right now, but you know, traditionally you, you meet people, school church work, that's how, how most relationships get started. Yeah. Now it's, you know, very largely. That starts on an app, or whatever. Um, but the lesson here is, just look around.

And that's, that's an interesting lesson that I gleaned from Luke Perry, is these both seem to be rather serendipitous run ins, these long term romances.

[00:32:59] Michael: I guess what I'm interested in is, how hard do you think it is to be that attractive, and that desired, and that known? This looks very, very hard to navigate any kind of romantic relationship.

On one hand, you know, there are, Women throwing themselves at you, and that's great, and that's fun, I'm sure, in your 20s if you're a single guy. But I also feel like, how do you filter? How do you sift through? Especially to your point about looking beyond the inner circle. Like, how do you, um, how do you trust?

[00:33:27] Amit: How do you trust that somebody likes you for you?

[00:33:29] Michael: Totally! Right? I mean, when you are this level, I mean, this is a hundred out of a hundred in terms of sex symbol qualities. And what I said earlier about mob mentality, I mean, it's sort of hard for anybody to shed that, as much as I give Luke Perry a tremendous amount of credit for being cool and self aware.

You know, that waxes and wanes too. The man has moments of insecurity. We all do. And there's gotta be a way in which this level of, like, fandom, it's hard to sort of, like, have the walls and defense mechanisms to sort of filter through what's real and what's not about me. I mean, part of the reason I'm so interested in the Pretty Bird is that, you know, he's obviously, like all of us, interested in attention.

And definitely interested in attention from women. The, I don't know, tidal wave of interest that comes his way and is sustained, it just makes navigating love and marriage, to me, look really hard. And we don't know what ended this relationship, but we do know it lasted ten years, two kids, and then Splitsville.

Yeah. I

[00:34:32] Amit: mean, it's nice when we do know, because we can talk about it and extrapolate, but in this case we don't. But to answer your question, how do you filter? It's, Deep intuition and trust. Yeah. In yourself.

[00:34:42] Michael: I do like your point about looking outside of the circles. And if that part of what we're doing on this show is looking for life lessons, wisdom, you know, inspiration, then there is something about, I'm not just going to stay inside the Hollywood circles as I date, even though that is absolutely within my power, and that would be easy.

Yeah. Yeah. And, and, you know, it did sound like they were committed parents. And his commitment to family really was genuine. Yeah,

[00:35:08] Amit: and the fact that the ex wife was by his side with the fiancé after his stroke on his near death bed, I think, is quite a

[00:35:15] Michael: testimony. Yeah. Okay, shall we move on? Yeah. Category five, net worth.

[00:35:21] Amit: Ten million. I mean, you like the number. We all know, new listeners out there, Michael Osborne loves the number ten million. Yeah.

[00:35:27] Michael: Or at least used to. I don't know how I feel about it. Yeah, it hurts you for evolving. You know, this gets back to the first line. He stayed busy. Like, he continued to work. You know, I wrote down here in this question, was he actually a good actor?

I don't want to, like, shit on the man. He just seems very, very, very, very, very handsome. And that is reason enough to put him on the silver screen or on the small screen with the televisions and so forth. But in terms of range, in terms of like, I don't know, getting lost in the character, I, I don't know enough, I don't know enough, but I'm not convinced he was a great actor, and that's fine, that's very normal in Hollywood.

Yeah. You're, you're just, you know, Zoolander really, really good looking, right?

[00:36:16] Amit: Yeah, I think he's got that Keanu Reeves type of like, he's a good actor because he's not a good actor. Right.

[00:36:21] Michael: So, in that sense, I sort of, like, he does sign off on some roles, he does do movies, he is, you know, working. A lot. And he's very employable.

And I don't know that I have a problem that the system of entertainment rewards very good looking people, even if they're not, like, I'm just not sure how. Truly talented he was. So much of it is just natural charisma. Yes. Natural charisma. Not necessarily earned charisma. Maybe it's earned. I don't know. Do I sound like I'm disparaging the man?

I think his looks are

[00:36:50] Amit: worth about ten million. At age 52. Or had he have died, and we'll get into this in the over under of what his actual thing is, you could probably double or triple what that would have been, assuming he just lived along the same lifestyle. Sure. But yeah, that's, that's about right, and I think most of the 90210 cast is probably around that.

That'd be my guess. And they also locked them into five year contracts, so when 90210 went on this initial hot streak from 90 to 95, before Luke Perry left, he was making the same salary the whole time. Royalties and all were negotiated later. But he wasn't getting that rich, he was making the extra money on these mall appearances and all these, where all these mobs showed up.

[00:37:27] Michael: Did you have any other reactions on the 10 million?

[00:37:30] Amit: Uh, I think it's largely, it's not all 90210 money, it's because, exactly as the New York Times said, he stayed busy. Yeah. And Riverdale did produce some money as well, but I think he did, as conflicted as he was about the teen idol status, you know, he, he did make some money off of it.

Yeah. You know, appearances and, and whatever he did in between. He had a, he had a tough relationship with fame, but I think he monetized it wisely, and uh, Going back to the coolness, I, I think he was as rich

[00:37:59] Michael: as he wanted to be. I 100% agree with that, Amit. That was my read as well. I'm glad you said it. Okay.

Category six, Simpsons Saturday Night Live or Halls of Fame. This category is a measure of how famous a person is. We include both guest appearances on SNL or the Simpsons as well as impersonations. The smile is just radiating. Well, this is one of my. All time favorite Simpsons appearances. And maybe I'll skip to that.

So actually, let me do SNL first. He hosted in 1993. It's hard to find clips of this. There's still images out there of it, but he was actually the host. Um, but anyway, he hosted SNL. Simpsons. This is one of my all time favorite appearances. It's on an episode called Krusty Gets Canceled, when there's a ventriloquist who displaces Krusty the Clown.

Yes. And Bart and Lisa help Krusty stage a comeback. And Luke Perry's name comes up. I didn't know you

[00:38:49] Amit: knew Luke Perry. Nah. He's my worthless half

[00:38:53] Michael: brother. Krusty has fantasies of, like, well, I'll get him on the show so I can humiliate him, and has him as sideshow Luke Perry. Krusty has this fantasy of shooting him out of a cannon into a brick wall to destroy his face.

And it doesn't quite go down like that. He puts 'em in the cannon.

[00:39:12] Amit: Are you comfortable in

[00:39:13] Michael: there? Luke Perry fire away. Crusty. They blast the cannon. The cannon flies out of the TV studio blasts through a sandpaper factory and you hear him screaming blasts through a, uh, stand in the Quickie Mart where APU is stacking all of these acid vials and he cracks them all and you hear him say,

I had forever thought he said, my face, my beautiful face. And this was an inside joke with Allison and me for forever. This is like something that once a week we'll bring up, like, my face, my beautiful face, um, cause there's something hilarious about that. It's actually valuable face, which is better. It's a better joke.

Anyway. Sideshow. Luke Perry on the Simpson season. Wonderful appearance. Wonderful appearance. Luke Perry was on Arsenio Hall twice. Okay. And really great on it. The second time he shows up, he is wearing a Star Trek uniform for some reason it's very charming and he is like, and he, and he makes reference to it.

He is like, the first time I came on, I was wearing a black jacket. I wanted to do something a little different this time. So he's got the original Star Trek uniform on. There's your cool Luke Perry. There's your cool Luke Perry. Okay. I wanna try to ask you questions. That no one's ever asked you before, but before I move on to creative stuff, what's up with the pig, man?

Some people got dogs, cats, right? I have a pig. He's black. He's about this long. He looks like Elvis. He's beautiful. Gets in the shower, and he, you know, he dresses up, and he's got his own agent and stuff like that. And he, you know, he's a civilized pig. Hollywood Walk of Fame, this one's a little hard because I did see a picture of a star but then I saw an article saying that there is no star.

So I don't know if that picture is real or photoshopped or what. This Hollywood Walk of Fame thing is, every time I research this it gets more and more confusing. But I'm gonna say there's a Hollywood star. This man is 4'4 Yeah. And that tracks. Totally. I mean, not only was he next level famous, it was also...

When he was next level famous, I mean these are mostly 90s things we're looking at to evaluate Simpsons and Saturday Night Live and so forth. It is a little hard to overstate how, like, he was the number one most famous man in America for a period of time, I think. Yeah, I

[00:41:30] Amit: mean, if you're gonna look at, like, the Generation X sort of characters, you've got, you know, Luke Perry, Kurt Cobain, there's a short list of them, and I think if he had done nothing, after 90210 and still died as tragically as he did in 2019, there would have been equal

[00:41:47] Michael: outpouring and reverence.

I think that's right. I think also the thing that you have to sort of point out to the younger generation is how important magazine covers were once upon a time. Now we see things on our social media feeds and on our screens, you know, flashing all the time. But there are figures out there who just seem to be everywhere.

Luke Perry was. everywhere for

[00:42:09] Amit: a few years. Yeah, I mean, I don't know if Taylor Swift is a, is a fair comparison, but that's pretty comparable to, I think, what, what 90210 cast, and specifically Luke Perry was in the

[00:42:17] Michael: early 90s. Not a crazy comparison. I don't know if you saw this, when Leonardo DiCaprio and Brad Pitt were asked about his passing, they were both like, I was totally starstruck.

Like, Leo, Leonardo DiCaprio and Brad Pitt, it's hard to come up with men more famous than that in Hollywood. And they were like butterflies meeting Luke Perry. Yeah. Like, I mean, he had that kind of just... A fact on people. Yep. Okay, Category 7, over and under. In this category, we look at the generalized life expectancy for the year somebody was born to see if they beat the house odds and look for signs of graceful aging.

So, the life expectancy of a man born in the United States in 1966 was 70. 21 years. Luke was 52, so about 18 years younger. Sucks. I don't know what to say. It's hard, it's

[00:43:05] Amit: impossible to know what to say. It's impossible, I mean this, this, this category is, is not designed for this. Yeah. Right? But it's still, it's still worthy of commentary, I think.

[00:43:14] Michael: You know, I saw a few magazine articles that had titles like Luke Perry Is a warning to Generation X or something like that. And I really balked at that because his death was... Well, or they read that way, whether they were phrased that way or not. Let's, you know, we've done a couple of other really young deaths on this show.

James Gandolfini and George Michael come to mind. In both instances, there were, you know... Lifestyle behavioral things going on, overeating or excessive substance abuse or whatever that are obviously confounding factors. Luke Perry looked like a very, very healthy man and seemed to be. He had become an advocate for colorectal cancer, um, because they discovered polyps in his colon in, you know, his mid forties.

And he's, well, somebody out there saying everybody needs to get checked. Yeah, he was a big advocate for that. He's on TV saying, I don't want my kids to ride motorcycles. Like, you know, he doesn't look like somebody who's smoking, drinking, you know, themselves to death. We don't know much about, you know, his inner health, but like, this was shocking when he died.

And it was a stroke that led to a few days later, you know, the end. He had also, and it sounds like, um, I saw this somewhere, after the cancer scare a few years earlier, had... Like, taking real steps to get a DNR order, a do not resuscitate order in place, so that when the family had to make the decision not to keep him on life support, they were like, we've got our directions here.

Like, he, he was thoughtful about that. Um, and it sounds like he probably got his estate in order, too. I think that gets a little complicated because he was engaged, not married, to Wendy. So, we just have a really weird relationship with death. In our culture, you know, however many episodes in, approaching 60 on this show, I don't know that I've learned anything about that.

In a funny way. I've learned a lot about life, I've learned a lot about, you know, what I want to be remembered for, and how I want people to regard me, and what I think will help me move towards peace and self acceptance. But I don't know that we're supposed to hold the idea that we could be hit with a stroke tomorrow too closely, you know?

No, that would erupt in chaos. Right, right. So I But

[00:45:33] Amit: you can't be oblivious to it either, and I think that's part of the lesson.

[00:45:38] Michael: I agree with that. Like, okay, something was cut off in Luke Perry's life here, right? Mm hmm. Years were cut off. Decades were cut off. We could have seen him working and doing well into his 50s and 60s and 70s.

You could argue half of it was cut off. You could argue half of it was cut off pretty easily. But I don't like the word incomplete somehow. He got to do a lot. He got to do so much. He got to live a really fulfilling, interesting, present, self aware, self accepting life and leaves behind, you know, a legacy that feels about right with his expectations for what kind of legacy he wants to have.

Yeah. I guess what I'm trying to get at is like, how much do we look at this and say cheated? You know, or we, the audience, are in some sense cut short. He's cut short because he doesn't get to see what happens to, you know, as his kids age. But at some point, we all get cut off. At some point, we're all asked to exit.

Right? You know? So, I'm not trying to make a case that it's not tragic. Of course it's tragic. I'm just not sure. We should use the word unfair, or unjust, or incomplete. That's where I feel like, in as much as I'm thinking about the nature of death, there's something about me that wants to look closer at that idea.

[00:46:59] Amit: I disagree with you on most of that except for incomplete. Yes, I think it is unfair. I think it was cheated. I think it was unjust.

[00:47:06] Michael: Completion made some sort of cosmic sense. Who the fuck are we to say? I mean, that's the point, right? Is there a lesson to a young death like this? Yeah,

[00:47:17] Amit: there is. So you say you let's and I'm going to, I'm going to build on the word incomplete, right?

And, uh, it's completion. Shouldn't I think in this regard be thought of as the span of life. It's did you complete what you were handed to you? Did you complete your days? Did you complete your months? Did you complete your years? And I think he did that, right. And I think the less the broader lesson is, is a cliche, but it's, you know, it's yes.

You have to make plans, longer term plans. You can't live everything completely in the moment. Um, But you can, you know what the small gestures are that matters, and you know not to put those off. You know when it's important to, to go to the party, to go to the wedding, to go to the funeral, to say I love you repeat, repeatedly, to express gratitude, to do all these little things.

Because yes, all that can go away, and we're talking about, you know, small percentage points. Yeah. But, I think that. is the lesson, is that what we see in Luke Perry is that you and I both see some completion. We see acceptance, we see gratitude, we see reciprocity, and, uh, I think he did all that. You are the hottest

[00:48:33] Michael: thing in America right now for teenage girls.

What is that like?

[00:48:37] Amit: It's

[00:48:38] Michael: scary. It's dangerous. Um, things that get hot and burn hot, burn out quick, and they're gone. There's just so much ashes. That's not what I want to do. If you look at what's to be learned here, a lot is to be learned here, and a lot is to be admired here, and that's, that's, that's maybe about as much as we're ever going to get in as much as we confront this topic.

Mm hmm. Let's take another break. Category nine. This is where we get into the more introspective questions, and we take a best guess of what we think it would have been like to have been this person. The first of these categories, man in the mirror. What did they think about their own reflection?

[00:49:18] Amit: Hot take time.

Most people look at Luke Perry and love what they saw. And I think Luke

[00:49:22] Michael: Perry looked at it like, we brought up self acceptance, how is it, okay, it is hot take time, do you have a no here?

[00:49:28] Amit: I have some evidence that he struggled with it. In his comparisons to James Dean, Luke Perry said, Who wants a career knowing you got somewhere just because you look like somebody?

He didn't like the robbing of the individuality in that comparison. He didn't like the idolatry that was afforded to him. He had extreme gratitude for his fans. He knew his looks were a huge part of his success, but he was conflicted. About it.

[00:49:59] Michael: Yes, there must be downsides to it. I'm sure. And I think it may get really confusing when people react to your outward appearance as they did, which gets compounded by the character you play on a very popular show that's targeted at a particular teenage demographic.

I can Sympathize with the not liking the idea of teen idol boy. I'd rather be a 20 something idol or a 30 something idol Sure, you know because teenagers are the craziest age bracket out there But I still have to imagine that you look in the mirror as Luke Perry at night And you're like, okay, I got this, you know, and I, and whether or not this is a blessing or a curse or both, and it is both, I think, you know, I, I, I think he's more grateful than not that he was blessed with the looks and the charisma, because I do think a lot about him is coming from the inside out, you know, it's not, there's lots of handsome faces out there, there's lots of pretty faces out there, and some of them, don't work so well because the people who have them are all torn up inside, you know, and don't know how to play the hand.

Not only did he have it, but he sort of could play it, you know, throughout. So I'm going a resounding yes here.

[00:51:16] Amit: This question is, can the charisma exist without the looks? Don't know. Who

[00:51:21] Michael: knows. I don't know. So where are you on this? So there's evidence.

[00:51:24] Amit: There's evidence. I'm a yes. You can't not. I'm just saying be a little careful.

It's certainly not the recipe for happiness. I guess the lesson is just don't forget.

[00:51:35] Michael: All right. Category nine, outgoing message. Like Man in the Mirror, how do we think they felt about the sound of their own voice when they heard it on an answering machine or outgoing voicemail? Also would they have the humility to record it themselves or do they use the default setting?

Humility, I don't actually question a lot. I think he absolutely would have done it. Yeah,

[00:51:54] Amit: I agree, but I will say that I was wrong about that. I wouldn't have guessed that, uh, two weeks ago. Before doing

[00:52:00] Michael: the research? Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I want to talk a little bit about the voice. His voice is cool, and he is cool.

It is very cool. But it is also all kind of in the throat. Yeah. I think about a

[00:52:11] Amit: lot of things. You do?

[00:52:12] Michael: Yeah. I want, uh... Long career. I don't know, that long. Distinguished, maybe. But long, uh... We'll see. I don't hear a ton of range. It's the sort of same question. It's got a McConaughey

[00:52:27] Amit: quality to it without the twang.

Yeah, a little bit. And

[00:52:31] Michael: I don't know that he loves it, actually. I think he maybe felt a little limited by it. I don't know. I mean, I think he's at peace with it. If the question's about self acceptance, this has come up throughout the conversation, I think that there's a lot of it there. But I also come back to, I'm not sure how good of an actor he was.

When it comes to the voice, I feel like it's a little bit his limiting factor. I don't know. So are you

[00:52:57] Amit: putting

[00:52:57] Michael: a no? No, I think he still likes it, because I think he's mostly grateful for what he's been gifted in life. But I think it's the thing that, more than his looks, reminds him of his own limitations.

[00:53:07] Amit: That's a very good point. I didn't think about that, and I think you're very right. And I agree with you that he likes it. Uh, it's an asset, it is, it is cool, but the limiting

[00:53:16] Michael: point is very good. Thank you. Alright, Category 10, Control Z. This is where we look for the big do overs. The things in life that you might have done differently.

Do you have a big Control Z moment? I don't have a

[00:53:29] Amit: big one, but I do have a...

[00:53:32] Michael: Okay, I pointed a little bit to the movie Eight Seconds about bull riding. The reason I wonder about it is it is his sort of moment of maximum political capital. Like this is the moment where you can choose any movie you want to do, more or less.

And how are you going to cash it in? And it came out at the peak of 90210 fame. So I sometimes wonder about that decision, but I don't know if it's control F. He seems proud of it. He got to ride bulls. He likes the story. Um, he apparently told everybody, you're not using Renee Zellweger well enough. She's a very talented woman.

And so I think he like looks back on it with gratitude. I struggled. What do you got? What do you got here? So there's

[00:54:12] Amit: this audio Bible version. And so he did it as the voice of Judas. Uh, and this had an all star cast. Okay, there was, um, Gary Sinise, Louis Gossett Jr., Marissa Tomei, who played Mary Magdalene, Jason Alexander.

Played George, yes, but I don't understand this thing. Like I, I don't, uh, so why is this a control? I just don't get it. Okay. So this is my, my take on a control Z and a guy like Luke Perry, who, whatever he does politically or religiously, um, Publicly, he toes the middle line. Yeah. And I think to do an audio version of the Bible, even if you are a Christian or a devout Christian, but it's not something that you start to wear on your sleeve like Mel Gibson does.

Right. Uh, I think it's a strange decision. Especially somebody with such a wide

[00:55:04] Michael: fan base. But is it a bad decision? I don't know. I mean... People get a lot out of the Bible, whether they're Christians or not. It's a good point. It's

[00:55:12] Amit: a, it's an, I wonder, right? You know, so it's maybe a control and like just hover over the Z.

Yeah. But it's like, no, I'll do it. But it just, it seems so out of step with the rest of the busy.

[00:55:22] Michael: Yeah. Between 902 and managing of a public image, like it or not that he has to reckon with. I mean, I think he, When it comes to democratic politics, I do think he gets a little bit more outspoken as he ages.

Yeah. Right.

[00:55:34] Amit: And to play Judas. Yeah. I mean,

[00:55:36] Michael: that's the other thing. Well, Harvey Keitel did it, but I guess that man's known for taking risks.

[00:55:40] Amit: I could see that. That's more of a Judas than a Luke Perry. Sure. I mean, the sideburns is the closest to a Judas we

[00:55:45] Michael: have with Luke Perry. According to the

[00:55:48] Amit: Renaissance.

Yeah, but my point that I was making just on the control Z and the do overs, neither of us see a lot. Yeah. I failed to find a bad word about him. Yeah.

[00:55:58] Michael: All right. Category 11, second to last category, cocktail coffee or cannabis. This is where we ask, which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity?

This may be a question of what kind of drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person, or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them. you're most curious about. What do you got?

[00:56:18] Amit: I toggled between cannabis and cocktail. Ultimately, I'm landing on cocktail and it's beer.

Yeah. Um, and I think this goes back to the same kind of Bill Paxton thing, that this is a guy you want to hang out with. Yeah. Uh, he's cooler than you. He's cooler than me. Sorry. He's going to be, I'm never going to top it. I don't think I can sit across the bar from him as a peer, but I don't think I can get very far off.

Because I think he's a very accessible

[00:56:42] Michael: cool. I had a very similar answer, Amit. I was thinking more like a whiskey in a smoky bar. And probably one that's like a dive bar where, you know, there's not a lot of singles people on the prowl. Because I wouldn't want to be distracted. But I'd like to have a conversation.

You would

[00:57:00] Amit: be the grenade that the other

[00:57:01] Michael: woman has to fall on. Yes, exactly. You know, you and I have come to the conclusion that we see a lot of... Coolness inside and out. And that's built on God given gifts like his good looks and great sideburns and hair and, you know, dashing eyes. It's also built on a self acceptance that he arrived at in Freddy Bird or somewhere along the way.

where he has the right relationship to the amount of attention he's seeking from the world. I do have sort of residual curiosity about where that comes from. Does he, and it's a little bit of a chicken or an egg question, does he look in the mirror and say, I'm a very handsome man, and then builds the charisma up from the inside?

Or does he have some sort of, um, understanding about how to navigate the world, and then that comes out in what we see on the screen, and in the pictures, and on the magazine covers? I'm curious to learn the path to self acceptance, um, and be working towards it. And I feel like there may be something you could glean from this case study over a nice glass of whiskey and a smoky dive

[00:58:02] Amit: bar.

And you think that's going to be taught to you, or do you think that's just something that's going to be absorbed by...

[00:58:07] Michael: conversation of mannerisms. Yeah, that's a good question. I'm not sure. I'd like to come away from that conversation saying, I had drinks with Luke Perry tonight, and of course, this is a very handsome and charismatic man, and I learned something about self acceptance by hanging out with him.

Whether or not that comes with something he would actually say, or whether or not that comes with studying him, I don't know. Actually, I don't have a theory about how I would approach that. But give me another glass of whiskey and let's see what we can find out. All right, final category. The Vanderbeek, named after James Vanderbeek, who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life.

Amit, do you want Luke Perry's life? I

[00:58:46] Amit: can think of a lot of reasons why

[00:58:47] Michael: not to. I can think of one big one.

[00:58:50] Amit: Dying at 52? Yeah. Sure. Okay. But that's not what we're asking.

[00:58:55] Michael: If that's not what we're asking, I agree, it's a pretty easy answer. Yeah. Probably. I think it's probably a pretty easy answer. Yeah, I, but let me That's a hard one to zero out, but yes.

[00:59:07] Amit: Yeah, it is, but we have to for these. You know, we have to. And especially a death like this that was not a result of behavior.

[00:59:15] Michael: Yeah, right. It's not a death of despair. Correct.

[00:59:18] Amit: Right. Uh, we, we have to zero that out, and otherwise this is a, it's a, it's not a question even worth asking. Yeah. Yeah. Did you want to die at 52?

Absolutely not.

[00:59:28] Michael: Um. But I'm not sure I want to die ever. Yeah, but I'll,

[00:59:31] Amit: I'll, I'll do say what the questions are. I'm not, you know, we have very little information about this, this first marriage. Yeah. And where, uh, you know, why it dissolved. Um. I, I think his quieter years in between 90210 and, uh, Riverdale were somewhat intentional.

[00:59:51] Michael: And understandable if they were intentional. I could see wanting to be like, I need to be careful about the next thing I choose because this has been fucking crazy being Dylan.

[01:00:01] Amit: Yeah, and he's got, he's got some good gigs, he's got, he had Oz, you know, but he's also raising children. Yeah. He was a father and he said that repeatedly.

Yeah. Like, that's family

[01:00:09] Michael: first. And he's got to get back to Ohio for the sheriff election.

[01:00:12] Amit: Yeah, and tomato day. Right. And I think that's what those years were about, but, um, I'll tell you my journey with Luke Perry over, over the lead up to this episode is like, I, I went from expecting a, a version of Dylan McKay.

Yeah. Um, to really admiring the guy. His character and charisma and the way others spoke about him, the way his actions, I think, followed those words. This is a really likable guy. I struggle that with the envy, right? The envy of the looks. Especially like the envy of the 13 year old me looking at Dylan McKay on the screen.

Absolutely. And, uh. But I struggle with that,

[01:00:49] Michael: and I, and I wish that the 10th graders who I'm going to school with felt the same way about me as they do about Dylan.

[01:00:55] Amit: Yes, exactly. But, but even, you know, even a 45 year old me still, still kind of, there's a little bit of envy. Sure. On, on how, how cool this guy is.

But he's, he's not a dick. Yeah. And he seems like a good person, and he seems like his heart was in all the right places at all the right times. So, if I'm gonna sum all that up, then yeah. I

[01:01:17] Michael: want your life, Luca Perry. It's a really good answer. I'll do my best to zero out the young death, too, because I think you could dwell on that and just say that's a deal breaker right there.

And that's not valuable for the purposes of this conversation, really. I wish I knew a little bit more about what we've been calling self acceptance, because I'm looking for that blueprint. Those actionable tools and steps here, and I don't know, I do have it some days, like where I've been, what I've done, who I'm with, how I spend my day, and I, you know, I give myself better than average scores, I think about, you know, how I'm participating in life, and I just wish I understood the mystery of self validation a little bit better.

I don't know if that plays into the Vanderbeek or not, or how much I'm projecting just because the guy does come across that way. I really, really do wonder a little bit about the volume and level of the inner turmoil that must be there because it's always there. And I think I'm absolutely with you. I, I, none of this necessarily plays into the do I want it or not.

I think I do for, and so I'm, I'm yes, I'm a yes on the Vanderbeek for all the reasons that have already been stated. But I'm not sure if I'm any smarter for, for saying yes, you know what I mean? And while I think that there is something to be learned from his life in terms of what I'm after, um, which is not, you know, thousands of girls screaming through a mall, that was what I was after when I was 15, I am after this self acceptance piece, how to get there.

I still don't know. I've got some ideas, but it, you know, it's incomplete. Yeah. Tell him he has to. Okay. I'll take your life, Luke Perry. Okay.

[01:03:02] Amit: Michael, you are now Luke Perry, and you are at the Pearly Gates. Standing in front of you is St. Peter, the proxy for all things afterlife. You have an opportunity now to make your case as to what was your unique contribution to how you left this world better than

[01:03:18] Michael: you found it.

St. Peter, as Luke Perry, and as Dylan McKay, and as... Fred Andrews. That was pretty cool. That's not a small thing. Somebody's gotta be cool. But what does it mean to be cool? I think it means to have others admire you, but it only happens if you admire yourself. When you're gifted with the things I was gifted as, great looks, good fortune, great opportunities, it's easy to take that for granted, but I always try to show that coolness lies within.

It's not about the clothes you wear or your sideburns. Or the magazines you're on. It's about how you view yourself and the more I tried to demonstrate that from the inside out, the more I hope I showed people that that level of coolness is inside all of us and can be found inside all of us. How you get there is everybody's individual journey, but at least I demonstrated.

What it could look like and what it could feel like and I approach that with as much humility as I possibly could Given the hand I was dealt for that. I hope you let me in

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