058 Best in Show transcript (Fred Willard)

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[00:00:00] Amit: This is Famous Gravy, life lessons from dead celebrities. Now for the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

[00:00:08] Michael: This person died in 2020, age 86. After his father died and his mother remarried. He was sent to military school. He later graduated from Virginia Military Institute and served in the Army playing on its baseball team. He once said, I always wanted to be a baseball player.

[00:00:28] Friend: I feel like it's like an ex-president or something, but Kevin Costner's not dead is he?

[00:00:33] Michael: It's not Kevin Costner. Over the years, he became a favorite among real life talk show hosts, making at least 50 guest appearances in sketches on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. He also did nine on Jimmy Kimmel Live.

[00:00:49] Friend: Oh my gosh, I don't really watch those shows anymore.

[00:00:53] Michael: He made an art of playing characters who, as The New Yorker once noted, are, quote, gloriously out of their depth.

[00:01:01] Friend: Like, Kramer just comes to mind immediately, but I think he's still alive.

[00:01:05] Michael: Michael Richards is still with us. He appeared in more than 700 films and television movies and episodes over a half century. His films include Fun with Dick and Jane, Austin Powers, The Spy Who Shagged Me, and Harold and Kumar Go to White Castle.

[00:01:23] Friend: The problem with that is there's like so many cameos in those movies.

[00:01:26] Michael: He was nominated for Emmys for his role on Modern Family and Everybody Loves Raymond, and was a frequent collaborator with director Christopher Guest.

[00:01:37] Friend: Fred Willard! That's it. Duh.

[00:01:39] Michael: Today's Dead Celebrity is Fred Willard.

[00:01:42] Archival: Ladies and gentlemen, here's Fred Willard.

Good to have you here, Fred. Thank you. No wonder Elvis was such a star with music like that behind him. Boy, it's okay to be silly on this show. Absolutely. I'm being honest. I just feel like being silly. You know, in improvising, they teach you, they say, uh, don't go for jokes, just listen to your partner, which I try to do, but occasionally, like, Jane Lynch plays my partner, the co host, and she says, you know, we have a story coming up on blind prostitutes, coming up next, and I said, you know what they say about blind prostitutes, you really have to hand it to them, and, uh,

[00:02:26] Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

[00:02:29] Amit: My name is Amit Kapoor.

[00:02:31] Michael: And on this show, we believe that the best years might lie ahead. So we choose a celebrity who died in the last 10 years and review their quality of life. We go through a series of categories in order to extract wisdom and inspiration.

And then we ultimately answer the question, would I want that life? Today Fred Willard. Died 2020, age 86. So before we begin, today we are lucky to be joined by Saul Austerlitz. Saul, thank you so much for coming on the show.

[00:03:03] Saul: Thanks so much for having me.

[00:03:05] Michael: Saul just published a book called Kind of a Big Deal, how Anchorman stayed classy and became the most iconic comedy of the 21st century. I've read the book, it's a total delight. I had, uh, this is a little bit embarrassing, I'd forgotten Fred Willard was an Anchorman. What? But then when I went back and watched the clips, it's like, oh, of course, he was Ed Harkin, the station manager. And there is something about his comedy that I think really informs that whole movie and Will Ferrell's comedy.

[00:03:37] Archival: You have a nice day, sir. I could come back later, Mr. Harkin. Oh, no, no, no. It's just, uh, parent stuff. It seems that our youngest, Chris, was on something called acid and was firing a bow and arrow into a crowd. You know how kids are.

[00:03:55] Michael: I'm curious what you think, you know, Fred Willer's contribution is to Anchorman. You know, he's more than a partner.

How would you frame

it?

[00:04:03] Saul: I think that your initial mistake makes sense to me because he exists a little bit at the side of the movie. Um, we're always kind of seeing him doing his thing by himself. And in fact, in terms of the way the film was made and especially in terms of how it was edited, the Fred Willard sequences were treated as, as sort of, uh, stops or placeholders or, or sort of places where they knew they could insert a joke or a pause for as long as they wanted.

And so the editor, Brent White talked about the Fred Willard moments as these things that he was lucky to have that he could basically put anywhere in the film because they didn't really have anything to do with anything else. But yeah, in terms of his being an inspiration for the film or for Will Ferrell, yeah, I look at the ways in which Adam McKay, in particular, the director and co writer of the film, talked to the actors after he cast the film and told them that this was going to be a movie that would be made really differently from what their expectations of a movie might be, that it was going to be much more about improvisation.

And so someone like Fred Willard, who'd already done so much improvisation. Especially with the Christopher Guest films, I think was in a kind of privileged place knowing already exactly how to do this kind of work.

[00:05:13] Michael: Yeah. One of the things I really liked about your answer, Saul, is that that sort of, um, I don't know, sort of Swiss army knife aspect of Fred Willard, like he could really be slot in anywhere.

That feels like a real common theme throughout his career, so it makes a lot of sense that he was sort of used. In that way, in Anchorman. Out of curiosity, why did you want to write the book in the first place? Tell me a little bit more about, uh, Kind of a Big Deal. Great title, by the way.

[00:05:37] Saul: Oh, thanks. Yeah, so I teach a class on the history of comedy at NYU.

And since I started the class, I usually show Anchorman to my students the first week of class. And it's a little bit of a provocation. Uh, a little bit of, you know, prodding the students to think about what might otherwise appear to be kind of an ordinary comedy that they wouldn't think twice about and getting them to watch it with different eyes and think about all the different themes and styles and methods of critical approach that they might have in terms of writing about the movie, whether it's writing about.

You know, the relationship between the movie and Saturday Night Live, whether it's writing about the improvisational style, whether it's writing about the movie's themes about feminism, about television news, you know, and so on and so forth. But, you know, it took me years of teaching this to students to kind of have my own teacher teach thyself moment where I said, wait, I want to write about this movie.

I have a lot to say about this movie and thinking about how much. People had connected with Anchorman, how much people loved that movie and the ways in which it had really stuck around in a way that that, you know, many other films of its era hadn't really got me interested in wanting to tell the story of how it got made and how it became the kind of iconic movie that it did.

[00:06:54] Archival: What in the hell's

diversity? Well, I could be wrong. But I believe, uh, diversity is an old, old wooden ship that was used during the Civil War era. Ron, I would be surprised if the affiliates were concerned about the lack of an old, old wooden ship. But nice try. Uh, diversity means that times are changing.

And with that in mind, Ron, are you paying attention? Nope.

[00:07:20] Michael: All right, let's do this. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Fred Willard, the Emmy Award nominated comic actor best known for his scene stealing roles in Christopher Guest's improvised ensemble film comedies like Best in Show and Waiting for Guffman, and on sitcoms like Modern Family and Everybody Loves Raymond, Died on Friday at his home in Los Angeles.

He was 86.

[00:07:49] Amit: They crammed a lot in. They got four, yeah, they did. They did. It's definitely like a Fred

Willard fast talker.

They didn't mention Anchorman, which is a little bit disappointing, given that we dragged Saul here for this conversation. But, but I gotta say, I do kind of like it. So sometimes I balk at referencing other people and other people's works in the first line of the obituary.

There's something about me that feels like We shouldn't use anybody else's name, but Christopher guests, movies occupy such a specific and unique space and sort of film comedy that I'm, you know, you kind of almost have to use his name here. And then I liked that they got in the more recent TV shows, Modern Family and Everybody Loves Raymond.

As we'll get to in this conversation, there is no shortage of other Things we might have referenced that Fred Willard happened to be in, but in terms of like what you remember him for I do feel like this is a pretty good You know random sampling of his most iconic appearances in pop culture

So let's focus on that for a second, Theo.

Missions. So, um, I would have cast a vote for this as Spinal Tap. He has such a small part, though. But it's such a good one, and it's his first, like, kind of breakout role. Ah, the, uh,

[00:09:08] Michael: Hoekstraat. You are Spinal Tarp? I'm, I'm Janine Pettifone, and this is Spinal Tap. Spinal Tap, my mistake. I'm Lieutenant Bob Hoekstraat, and welcome to Lindbergh Air Force Base.

And may I start by saying how Thrilled we are to have you here. We are such fans of your music and all of your records. I'm not speaking of yours personally, but the whole genre, the rock and roll and stuff, all the exciting things that are happening in music

[00:09:30] Amit: today. They chose Waiting for Guffin, I think, because they had to mention Best in Show.

Right? Because that's, that's the true scene stealer of all of them. But the This Is Spinal Tap role is so, so good. And really started his film comedy trajectory.

[00:09:46] Michael: I agree with that last statement, most importantly. He did other things before, and we'll get into it. But there is something that sets him on a new and different course, starting with Spinal tap.

So, I don't know. I'm, I'm ready to ask Saul's opinion on this. Saul, how did you feel about the first line of the obituary? What, what leapt out to you? I felt

like

[00:10:05] Saul: it was pretty solid. I'm appreciative that they mentioned such a wide variety of his work because Fred Willard seems to me to be at his best as a kind of supporting player in the best possible way.

The guy who jumps in, in a movie where you maybe didn't even remember he was there or shows up as a guest star in a show where you're not expecting him and ends up stealing all the scenes. And that's really. I think what people love Fred Willard the most for, right? He wasn't the star of the movie. He wasn't the guy with the big name on the poster, but instead was the person who would just kind of sneak in.

And run away with the movie

[00:10:38] Michael: y'all both have used the phrase scene stealing which does appear here and is maybe the strongest Bit of language in the first line of the obituary best known for his scene stealing roles They had to get that in there because he is kind of a consummate scene stealer in a way He comes on and you just like, you know, all of a sudden it's a fred willard scene, you know what I mean?

and he's

[00:10:59] Saul: a secret weapon right filmmakers brought him in because they knew that he was that that professional who would just do a Exactly the right scene in exactly the right way and they wouldn't have to worry about him at all

[00:11:10] Michael: now. She's having the dogs Why do they have to run away from them and they looking for looking for the gate and movement of the dog?

It's very important to see the small angles. So edie will be checking out this in particular Good way to judge a woman have her run away from you and then run back on those birds on canobie street I'm used to seeing him run away from me More often than run towards me. I kind of feel like the word improviser or improv needs to be in here somewhere.

Well, that Emmy

[00:11:43] Amit: award winning was right

[00:11:44] Michael: off the bat, which is true. Oh, I screwed up. I screwed up. What? The word improvised is in here. Oh, my effing F. I'm sorry. Christopher Guest improvised ensemble film. So he did not. They did nod to it. Okay. Damn it. I was looking for holes to poke and I guess I. And you just created your own hole.

And I did. Oh, how embarrassing. Well, I'm glad I caught it anyway. What were you going to say?

[00:12:10] Amit: I think I'm just going to create you instead of the obituary.

[00:12:13] Michael: Okay, that's fine. I mean, isn't that kind of what we're doing anyway? Yeah.

[00:12:16] Amit: Um, so, uh, the fact that Emmy award winning was right off the bat, I understand because you gotta, you gotta start with something Hallmark.

Typically, but that was so secondary and so late in his career. It's just, it's an interesting placement.

[00:12:32] Saul: I think that's also apropos, just because I think of Fred Willard as kind of a career late bloomer, right? Oh, totally. Yeah, we become much more familiar with him when he's already, you know, close to senior citizen age.

Yeah. And there's something wonderful about that. You know, I think about the ways in which Hollywood in particular kind of valorizes youth. And Fred Willard's career is kind of the opposite of that, that he's someone who really comes into his own much, much later in his career. I'm not sure that he would have necessarily wanted it that way if he had his druthers, but it's lovely to see somebody who kind of becomes a big success much, much

[00:13:10] Michael: later in life.

Amen, I think that's going to become a big part of what we're going to talk about for the rest of the show so much So should they have gotten that idea in here somewhere like some sort of you know professional who spanned many decades or some other way of Capturing what you just said Saul because I think the more I looked at his story the more that is 100% true This guy was like sort of a little bit around and then always around but really didn't you know come into full blossom until It's 30s, 40s, or 50s.

I mean, it's really a sort of fourth quarter run he has.

[00:13:45] Amit: Yeah. I mean, Spinal Tap, he was 50 already.

[00:13:47] Michael: Yeah. Amazing. All right. I feel like I'm ready to grade this thing. Amit?

[00:13:52] Amit: Uh, so two deductions for me. One, I, I do want Spinal Tap in there. I think mentioning both Waiting for Guffman and Best in Show is a little redundant.

Didn't have to do that. And secondly, I wanted some nod to the style. To either of the, uh, the dryness, the straight man, the self unaware. So, uh, minus two, one and a half points for each. So I'm giving a

[00:14:15] Michael: seven. Okay. Wow. You're, but the

[00:14:18] Amit: rest was solid. The rest was solid. I mean, that's coming down from a 10.

Normally I have to build, you know, zero up. Ground

[00:14:23] Michael: up accounting. I was going to go eight, largely for the same reason. I would have liked a little bit of the late bloomer narrative in here somehow. I don't know how you do that, but I would have liked that idea introduced. I also do think your point about style and his sort of unique flavor of comedy.

Uh, I'm docking at only two points. I'm in a slightly more generous mood than you are Amit. I'm giving it an eight. Okay. Saul, do you have your score?

[00:14:47] Saul: Yeah, I'm going to agree with you and also go with the Nate. I'm going to be petty and take a point off for not including Anchorman just because I feel like it.

There you go. And I do, I do think that that some discussion of the style would have been good, but on the whole, I think this does a pretty good job of kind of capturing the scope of Fred Willard's life and his career.

[00:15:06] Michael: Excellent. 8, 8, and 7. Next category, Category 2, Five Things I Love About You. Here we work together to come up with five things we love about this person, five reasons we want to be talking about them in the first place.

Saul, before you leave us, would you like to contribute a thing you love about Fred Willard? Yeah,

[00:15:23] Saul: I was thinking about this, and I think the thing that I admire about Fred Willard, his characters always have a willingness to be game. There's always... Odd things going on around him and he's always willing to play along, you know, he's witnessing the foibles of others, whether it's his son who is, you know, shooting people with bows and arrows while on LSD and anchorman or all the oddball characters in the Christopher guest films.

And he's always taking in what they're doing with relative equanimity. He never. You know, get so bent out of shape. And it's obviously extremely funny in context and also just kind of an admirable life skill.

[00:16:00] Michael: I, it's a very improv. Yes. And thing, right? You take it in stride. You sort of acknowledge whatever is happening around with you.

I like the word equanimity there. I

[00:16:09] Amit: love that. Yeah. To describe his demeanor. It's so rare in comedy, too. That's perfect. Yeah,

[00:16:14] Saul: you know, he stays so calm. He's rarely the guy who's going over the top. I mean, that's more right Will Ferrell's role to do the, the shouting and the red faced work. But I love Fred Willard for always being the person who's sort of like the, the calm at the

[00:16:28] Amit: eye of the storm.

He's our comedic Buddha.

[00:16:31] Saul: Exactly.

[00:16:32] Michael: Uh, Saul, um... Uh, once again, the book is called, uh, Kind of a Big Deal. Uh, it's available now. It is a total delight to read. Anybody who's a fan of Will Ferrell or Anchorman or Adam McKay or comedy history in general, I highly recommend reading it. Yeah, we'll link to

[00:16:49] Amit: it and Saul's other books in the show notes as well.

[00:16:52] Michael: That's right. Saul Australis, thanks so much for coming on the show. Really appreciate you making the time today. Thanks so much for having me. This was really fun. All right. Uh, do you want to take thing number two? Would you like me to? Why don't you go? I'm just going to go for the upward elevator in trajectory, the late bloomer thing.

Actually, the words I wrote for my thing number two were hope and faith. You know, he really didn't hit until, I don't know, I mean, there's this thing called Fernwood Tonight with Martin Mull in 1977, which is by some sources cited as like the first important Fred Willard thing he did, even though he had been.

On the Tonight Show and part of Comedy Troops. Before that, he was in Second City. He was even on the Smothers Brothers back when Steve Martin was working there. But he really didn't like begin to get noticed until Fernwood Tonight, which most people don't know anything about. He's 44 years old when that hits.

He is in his fifties when Spinal Tap comes out. Like, man, you and I, you know, I had a birthday not too long ago. I am in my mid forties, man, do I need these examples of people who. Had a passion, felt a calling, chipped away at it, and tried to like zero out expectations and just make a living. And the reason I used hope and faith is that I got to believe that's possible for me and you and anybody else in their mid 40s who wants to believe I still might make it in some fundamental sense.

God almighty, I love that about Fred Willard. Didn't you come away from the research sort of feeling the same way? Totally,

[00:18:25] Amit: totally inspirational that the, his trajectory really started much, much later

[00:18:31] Michael: than most people's. And the thing is, it's not even one breakout. It's more just that he like becomes an increasingly well known and trustworthy, you know, participant and commodity in a comedy troupe.

You know what I mean? Like, he, he, he really like, it's a slow accumulation of a reputation that, that I just love and admire and desire. So I can, I'll take

[00:18:54] Amit: number three, which I think is actually a really great build off to that. I wrote Can't Stop, Won't Stop. And that's not just about the persistence and, you know, hitting film breakthrough in his fifties, but he worked all up until the end.

I mean, literally he filmed the Steve Carell Space Force right before he passed. And he did something notable. Every single year of his career, you look through his IMDB and what did you say in, in the quiz? Something like 700?

[00:19:23] Michael: 700. A cry. It's hard to count it up because there's recurring roles on TV. It's at least 300 entries.

It's insane.

[00:19:29] Amit: Yeah, IMDB, I think I had, had 318 listings with several more multiple. Right. But yeah, the man kept working and I think what's unique about that. And what's cool about that is I think you can only do that with his level of participation. This kind of slot in anywhere type of role that he had and almost never being a leading man.

I do have some counter example stories of that later. But this just sort of slow burn all the way until the end, not this mountain that you climb and then drop off in retirement, you know, there's different styles and different ways to do this, but I kind of really like this Fred Willard lifestyle, little gigs here and there and little parts.

And even in his final several years, maybe just showing up on modern family at a time or two there on Jimmy Kimmel every couple of months, I think it's excellent, this steady flow until the end.

[00:20:22] Michael: Yeah, I suspect you have a hot take. So why don't you do number four too? Okay, uh,

[00:20:28] Amit: it's gonna be a twist. First, so the two favorites of mine, uh, he was the first gay wedding on television.

[00:20:36] Michael: Which was on Roseanne, where he married Martin Mole.

[00:20:39] Amit: Correct. So he played, uh, one half of a gay couple on Roseanne and they got married on TV and beat, uh, friends, I think by one or two years as the first gay wedding on tv. 1994. Yeah. Yeah. And secondly, um, he had the first human role in a Pixar movie. I saw

[00:20:57] Michael: that.

Did you see in Wally? Okay. I'm giving override, uh, directive. A one 13. Go to full autopilot. Take control of everything.

[00:21:14] Amit: So I love these just kind of small little firsts that he had and the life lesson I think from this is that everybody is first to something. You can take this, you know, a really spiritual look at it and say, you know, I'm the first person in this room at this time at this moment, but not even that, like you are the first person to do something almost always, and anybody can look back at their life and they are the first person to do something that is reasonably significant.

And I think Fred Willard's examples of these tiny little things that we're talking about, I think are awesome because it's not first line stuff, but it's still significant being a

[00:21:54] Michael: first. Uh, all right. Maybe I'll go with, uh, maybe I will take five, unless you have something else you want to burn. I'm happy.

I'm in a generous mood. If you wanted to do one more thing you love, I'm good with it.

[00:22:05] Amit: No, I'll hear it. I'll one up you, uh, in a, in an informal way,

[00:22:08] Michael: if necessary. I love the competitive nature of this. Maybe we've already spoken to this, but Tone Setter is what I have. He's somebody who, whenever he shows up on your screen, like, the energy he brings and the tone he sets has this element.

The quote I read that I loved the most was, A sublime talent for inhabiting the genial American blowhard. He is genial and he is a kind of like, you know, white american blowhard in the best possible way I mean, he's got almost an element of dad humor. That's Occasionally a little bit raunchier, you know, and like anytime anytime he steps onto the screen i'm like, oh I smile immediately You know, insert him into this movie and already you've elevated the whole thing and the sort of comedic atmosphere and the comedic potential of a given script or a given moment, uh, in a film.

[00:23:09] Amit: Before he even opens his mouth.

[00:23:10] Michael: Exactly. Exactly. Like, don't you want that energy? Don't you want to be like somebody walks in the room and they're like, Oh, you don't even fucking do anything. And they just smile at you. Yeah. I think that this is part of his secret weapon as a scene stealer is that he's not trying to dominate But by surrendering this is the whole counterintuitive thing by surrendering to the moment.

He does steal the scene Yeah, you're

[00:23:33] Amit: talking about It's not charisma. I think we gotta we gotta workshop this because it's something different. It's a quality that uh, it's an elevating quality, but it's Completely based on presence, but that presence is not just based on what you bring into the room.

It's the accumulation of who you are, you know, it's what to expect. It's, it's all of your behavior that accumulates that, you know, that when you enter into a scene, people are just going to start smiling and are ready to laugh.

[00:24:00] Michael: That predisposition to make you want to laugh does seem to come from the inside out.

He's not doing a whole hell of a lot, but the stripped down, sort of, I don't know, bare bones version of whatever he is doing, like, has you on your seat's edge, like, waiting to laugh. Yeah,

[00:24:17] Amit: and I think it's also what Saul referred to. It's the equanimity that he brings. to each role and his, his commitment to the purity of the form.

You know, he talked about like, he, he doesn't cut some roles because he thinks it's a shortcut and he doesn't overact like he never acts in a comedic way. He thinks that the delivery is in the non delivery. And I think all of those three things add up to this anticipatory feeling of you smiling already when he

[00:24:45] Michael: walks in.

Okay. Let's recap. So number one, Saul said, uh, equanimity. Essentially. Uh, number two, I said, hope and faith. That was really in reference to the upward trajectory of his career. Number three,

[00:24:58] Amit: you said, Can't stop, won't stop. Number

[00:25:00] Michael: four, First first person. First first person. Very Neil Armstrong. Like that way.

And number five, I said, tone setter. Boy, that's a good list. Okay. Uh, let's take a break. Okay. Category three. Malkovich. Malkovich. This category is named after the movie, Being John Malkovich, in which people take a portal into John Malkovich's mind and they can have a front row seat to his experiences. My Malkovich is 2010.

I kind of wanted to rip the band aid off this one. So, for my Malkovich, I chose an uncomfortable moment. Do you know about his little mini scandal in 2010? Yes. And, uh, how would you describe it? Pee wee Herman

[00:25:44] Amit: like? Yeah, Pee wee Herman like. I mean, wow. What a, what a very contemporary reference, given that we just lost Pee wee.

But yeah, well, Pee Wee Herman like, but, but without the

[00:25:53] Michael: evidence. Right. So he was arrested for, uh, exposure in a public theater. It sounds like he was in a port theater and very likely beaten off.

[00:26:04] Amit: I want to, I want to talk about this. This probably was never. Proven. He was just in a pornographic theater during a raid, where they typically look for people that, um, are either doing that, performing lewd acts, or are with

[00:26:17] Michael: prostitutes.

But I thought he had been exposed.

[00:26:20] Amit: No, I don't think so. I don't think they caught

[00:26:22] Michael: that. Okay. But

[00:26:24] Amit: either way, he was, he was arrested for being present. He wasn't caught in any

[00:26:27] Michael: act. Yeah, okay. He was arrested for lewd conduct, and he was fired from a gig he had at the time on PBS. Yes. I want to zone in not on his arrest.

He ended up not being charged, but a hugely embarrassing moment. He, at one point, after this begins to come out, sends out a tweet. And this was his effort at damage control. And the tweet reads, Wait till you hear my version, much more PG. And my review, lousy film, but theater would make a terrific racquetball court.

Full story to follow. Any time he answered this in public, he was like, Oh God, it's embarrassing, you know. Yes. It is, it's very embarrassing. It's embarrassing as hell, you know. But let me say this, nothing happened. I did nothing wrong. Everything's being sorted out as we speak. But I, I, I'm tried to laugh it off, uh, but my, my summary of the whole evening was, it's an interesting theater, a boring movie, and a great place to take a nap.

The moment I am choosing from my malkovich is the moment he decides to send this tweet. How you move into damage control was something. So embarrassing, whatever happened, and that he decides to construct this tweet and then hit send and say, this is how I'm going to respond to it. And I got to try and make some joke about this.

I got to say, terrific racquetball court. What do you think he's talking about there?

[00:27:56] Amit: I have no idea. I don't

[00:27:56] Michael: get the joke. Me neither. It's awkward, right? It's sort of bad improv in a way, but I am wondering what's going through his mind. With oh god, I've just put in decades and decades of hard work in Hollywood I've built myself a pretty good reputation PBS just fired me.

I've got to say something. I guess I'll go to Twitter and make this little joke I want to know what it's like to have to humble yourself And come up with some kind of version of things, you know, this late in life. Because this is, what, ten years before he dies. So, as you said, he's a 77 year old man. I also wanted to bring up this Malkovich because I wanted to, I don't know, get this moment out of the way.

I think there's so much to enjoy about Fred Willard, and I am more than happy to forgive this incident. But, I also felt like we needed to talk about it early on. That is my Malkovich.

[00:28:51] Amit: Okay, so for mine, we're going to fast forward just four years. So first line in the obituary, we talked about Emmy winning.

Do you know what that Emmy

[00:28:59] Michael: was? I think one was for Modern Family. I don't remember the other one. There was a daytime

[00:29:04] Amit: Emmy for his performance on The Bold and the Beautiful. No. Yes. So in 2014, Fred Willard accepted a role to be on not just a soap opera, but the quintessential soap opera. He was on seven episodes of The Bold and the Beautiful, playing sort of the zany brother of one of the characters.

Amazing. Uh, I want to be there for the traveling experience of being on all these comedy sets, you know, on the Carson stage and all these movies. And then you're on a soap opera set for a guy like Fred Willard, especially at this age at like 81, something, 80, 81, I mean, this is like traveling to Antarctica and I want to see what it's like to be on this set, uh, primarily from, from his eyes, but even from the eyes of the cast, um, I just love it.

And I would just love to see how he perceived it compared to everything else that he did. And you talk about, you know, doing different things in your career. And here's a guy that was an actor, a comedic actor pretty much the entire time. But this is about as much as you can do as. As like Michael Jordan going to play baseball, you know, it's like trying something else.

[00:30:20] Michael: That's a good one. I mean, I wonder what that feels like to try something very new and very different and very kind of tacked on at the end, because at this point he's got to know anything he's doing in his eighties is a little bit like this is all icing on the cake at this point. He's lucky to be working, you know?

Yep. Okay. Category four, love and marriage. How many marriages? Also, how many kids? And is there anything public about these relationships? All right, this is a nice one. One marriage, Mary Lovell in 1968. Fred is about 35 ish, if I did my math right. She died in 2018, just two years before he died. They were married about 50 years, one daughter, one grandson.

Everything looks to be like love and supporting like she was out there Championing his career. I think that there was even a couple times when she might have been involved in helping Further his career. I didn't find a whole hell of a lot past that. They looked pretty cut and dry. It also suited My impression of Fred Willard very well.

He does Yes. The fact that he's a military guy, that he, like, was in the army and then at the Virginia Military Institute, that added up to me. He he felt like somebody, you know, who's got the haircut and the uniform, should he want to have it. That kind of entertainer and performer of that generation. You know what I mean?

Totally. There was nothing surprising in here for me. Did you find anything or have any, uh, different reactions? Uh, there's a pretty

[00:31:47] Amit: significant age

[00:31:48] Michael: differential. Yeah, I did notice

[00:31:50] Amit: that. I think that she was 15 or 16 years younger, but, um, it seemed like it worked. I think you, you hit on the word supportive and that came up over and over again in all of these interviews with him.

And what I learned about her is that she was not just supportive for him. She was kind of, uh, Leonard Maltin called her the den mother of the comedy community. So she would throw all these. parties at their house, and she would say the people that were there, you'd have, you know, Jimmy Kimmel, Jeff Ross, Weird Al Yankovic, and that she was kind of this, like, this rock.

She was a very decisive woman and a very encouraging woman, and that these comedy friends of his, Jimmy Kimmel and, um, Norm Macdonald would actually, like, call her for advice. And so, she seems, I mean, we don't know much about her, meaning we don't have her, her voice on tape very much. But she seems like an incredible woman, and an incredible partner.

I see greatness in this

[00:32:46] Michael: marriage. That's what I saw too, and it feels like it's been a while since we've had somebody who's Marriage was so like simple and desirable and I was like, oh, this is just heartwarming. I don't know man. Not a lot to say other than high marks Well done by what we can tell and who knows the inner complexities of it, but looks pretty damn good to me and very desirable Okay, let's move on category five net worth five million five million felt a little low to me

[00:33:16] Amit: and made I think just given I mean given the vast catalog of His work it did feel a little

[00:33:23] Michael: bit low Yeah, I was a little, I mean, it's not a bad number.

That's, that's a very blue collar kind of Hollywood number, right? Yeah, blue collar

[00:33:31] Amit: for Hollywood,

[00:33:32] Michael: yes. Yeah, I mean, obviously that's a great number by any measure. You, you kind of want somebody who is so prolific to have cashed out a little bit more. Um, yeah, I don't know, I wanted a higher number only because the sheer volume of things he's in felt like it was worthy of a higher number.

But maybe... After thinking about it, it's not necessarily the wrong number, you know what I mean? No,

[00:33:55] Amit: it's the duration. I think it speaks to the can't stop, won't stop. As he just kept taking, he just kept working. And some of this, I don't think like all these Jimmy Kimmel appearances were paid. Yeah. He just kept doing stuff.

Yeah. Um, and I think the roles that he did in these Christopher Guest movies, these aren't things that you're on set for months.

[00:34:13] Michael: No, and those are not big movies either. I mean, it's not like those are blockbusters. They don't, Have huge returns

[00:34:19] Amit: and he was not like, you know, he wasn't in the top few billing for anchorman So he's like even these mega blockbusters.

It's not he's getting royalties, but he's not getting the top of the heap will feral royalties

[00:34:30] Michael: Yeah, no, I mean he's a he's a good He's a good middle ground for what it means to be a working actor in hollywood, right? He's he's almost that the definitely especially in comedies. It's hard to come up with somebody who's more Just like steady stream than him still a little disappointed though to see five.

I was I was hoping for 10 I was hoping for at least 10. I was too. Yeah All right, category six simpsons saturday night live or halls of fame This category is a measure of how famous a person is We include both guest appearances on snl or the simpsons as well as impersonations So I bet you saw this he hosted snl.

He did 1978 1978 you see who he replaced. Yeah, muhammad ali Fred Willard, stepping in for Muhammad Ali, who had to cancel. Ladies and gentlemen, Fred Willard! One died with you All the things that we took a plan Would make my dreams come true It's only me! It's only me!

Well, I bet you were thinking, Gee, what an opening act, huh? Hosted SNL, that does say something. Like, what's funny is that I think that actually says more about SNL than about Fred Willard. SNL in 1978. You know what I mean? But it's significant because, I mean, George Carlin hosted early on, Billy Crystal hosted early on.

Like, people who are very famous had hosted at that point. And even though I'm sure Fred Willard was a great slot in on what Saturday Night Live was in 1978, you know, it's still a little surprising to see him having had hosted. Musical guest

[00:36:28] Amit: Devo, by the way.

[00:36:29] Michael: That's right. I saw that as well. So that's SNL.

Uh, Simpsons, he did a voice on season 10, episode 12, another famous and gravy tie in the same episode that John Madden was on John Madden, episode 42, a famous and gravy. Fred, uh, voiced somebody named Wally Cogan. And then there is no Arsenio Hall appearance and no Hollywood star. So hosted SNL voiced somebody, but not himself on the Simpsons.

No Arsenio, no Hollywood star. Hard to know how to add it all up. How, but the question is how famous is Fred Willard?

[00:37:08] Amit: Uh, I don't even know how to answer it. But he's got the name recognition. People know the

[00:37:13] Michael: name. There is name recognition somehow, right? And I can't think of anybody else who has the kind of name recognition he has without having a single character associated with him that he has.

I mean, there's four different things mentioned in the first line of the obituary. And we talked about To others, which could have been mentioned, none of which do you readily remember the character's name? He somehow has this name recognition because he's such a known quantity. It's such a unique example of sort of earned reputation across multiple projects and properties.

Um, he's kind of famous in a way, but he's also Not all that

[00:37:55] Amit: famous. So nowhere near as rich as his

[00:37:57] Michael: contemporaries. Right. Yeah. Kind of funny. Like we know him, we're not exactly sure why. Except we can point to 10 different things that we kind of sort of remember him from,

[00:38:06] Amit: you know? Yes, these like scene stealing things.

And I think that's why. That's why we know him, because he is a scene stealer. I think there's a lot of people that have the exact same amount of screen time as Fred Willard, but they don't have as memorable of an appearance. That you can't see the face and associate it with a name. I mean, in one way, I think it's kind of beautiful.

You know, it speaks to this just sort of steady stream along the whole ride. I mean, I, there's a lot of the conclusions that we've come to through the episodes that fame doesn't look very desirable. However, his lifestyle in the corner he occupied looks pretty good. It

[00:38:42] Michael: does look pretty good. All right, a lot to like about this guy.

All right, well, let's, uh, shall we move on? Yeah. All right, category seven, over under in this category, we look at the life expectancy for the year somebody was born to see if they beat the house odds and look for signs of graceful aging. So, the life expectancy for a man born in the United States in 1933 was 61.

7 years old. Fred lived to 86, so about 25 years over. And very graceful aging. Yeah,

[00:39:12] Amit: working up until the end, but even physically,

[00:39:15] Michael: looking pretty good.

[00:39:17] Amit: Consistent physique. Yeah, and the smile. I mean, no deterioration in the smile. I think that is like, that is a hell of an indicator. Um, so yeah, with a ton of grace.

And doing these, like, these things towards the end of his career, this modern family, playing Phil Dunphy's father, you know, those were in his final

[00:39:36] Michael: years. Well look, it's pretty boy Dunphy. Looking good yourself, Pops. So, uh, how you doing? I got my rings, got my vows. Now all I need is a way to escape. Please, someone help.

I'm kidding, of course. Actually, I'm really looking forward to being married. Maybe this belongs in a different category, but I do feel like he's somebody who is not just Able to be slot into just about any comedy of any flavor anywhere, whether it's the Simpsons or Christopher Guest or Modern Family or Everybody Loves Raymond, like everybody can find a use for him.

I also think that there is a way of approaching comedy that he exemplifies that affects people like Phil Dumpy, what's his name, Ty, uh, what's his name? Ty Burrell. On Modern Family, as well as Will Ferrell. I mean, I think Will Ferrell is actually that sort of consummate American, genial American blowhard.

That is such a, kind of like, comedic archetype, and a really useful one, and he nails that about as well as anybody, you know? They're just like, I'm supposed to say stuff as a genial, you know, white man in this situation, because society expects me to just start talking, whether I know what the heck I'm talking about or not.

[00:40:54] Amit: He embodies it perfectly. And he said that too. He, he used to have this quote saying, uh, if you don't have anything to say, just say something. And that was like a philosophy in life as well as like, I think in his work and the improv. If you don't have anything to say, just

[00:41:07] Michael: say something. You know what? But here's the other thing I love about it.

And I think it speaks to Grace. It kept him funny into old age. Like, sometimes age, you know, robs you of your ability to make people laugh, you know, and maybe it is because, to Saul's point, we sort of valorize youth and, you know, Western culture. I like that there's this man who becomes funny. At a pretty young age.

I mean, he is doing comedy work in the sixties and seventies, but it stays funny the whole time. I want that too. Right. I never want it in as much as I aspire to have a good sense of humor. I sure as hell hope like that sticks with me to age 86. It's not just graceful, but the humor itself is graceful.

Yeah, I think that's my point. All right. Wow. A lot of high marks here. Yeah. Looking pretty good so far. Except for that 2010. Yeah. We'll get to it. All right. Let's take another break. Okay. Category eight. This is where we get to the more introspective questions and where we start to take our best guess at what we think it would have been like.

To have been this person first of these categories, man in the mirror, what did they think about their own reflection? I didn't have a lot to say here on it. I said, seems confident, but you are really good at this category. So what

[00:42:29] Amit: are you thinking? Yeah, I think you're looking for me to say something else, but you know, we, we know him largely in older age.

He was often described as like the handsome foil. In things like Fernwood tonight and everything around that era, he, he was a good looking man. I think that, I think what that does is that allows him to maintain that equanimity and confidence in this dry humor.

[00:42:53] Michael: Good looking, not great looking. I mean, I'm not to say he's like bad looking, but he's like, he's, he's good looking, but not sex or whatever.

Right. Six or seven. That's what I was going to

[00:43:02] Amit: say. And he was athletic. You alluded to, you know, playing baseball for the army. Yeah.

[00:43:06] Michael: Um. He wanted to be a baseball player. Yeah.

[00:43:09] Amit: Yeah. So he's, he, he had confidence and I think that was just enough. I think he liked it. I think the man smiled authentically all the time and I think he was grateful for how he looked.

I don't think he aspired for much more. So yeah. My, my, my short answer is yes.

[00:43:25] Michael: Yes. He likes his reflection in the mirror. Okay, mine as well. Category nine, outgoing message. Like man in the mirror, how do we think they felt about the sound of their own voice when they heard it on an answering machine or outgoing voicemail?

Also, would they have had the humility to record it themselves, or would they use the default setting?

[00:43:43] Amit: This seems painfully

[00:43:45] Michael: obvious to me. Daddy liked

[00:43:47] Amit: it. Yeah. The man loved talking, right? Like, improv was his, his jam. And he even talked about, you know, doing the, the Leno skits and the Kimmel skits. Like, there's not rehearsals.

There's one take. And he also said that's what he liked about the Bold and the Beautiful is that like, you know, it's a day, it's a day to shoot. He just, he likes throwing

[00:44:05] Michael: it out there. You know what we haven't referenced yet? And maybe it's too annoying of a reference, but the whole, what happened? Might he win?

As you know, back in 1970, I starred on a series called What happened? And every time something would go wrong, I would look at the camera and say, Hey, what happened? Those may be his most famous words. I bring it up here because if I were to ever call Fred Willards and, and get his voicemail, it's a non sequitur, but I kind of want to hear that on his voicemail.

I'm just saying. And I don't,

[00:44:38] Amit: I don't think he would have been above putting it. Not at all. He was one of those people that like didn't mind rehashing the

[00:44:42] Michael: role. Yeah, like if you're wondering what happened, yeah, I watched that a lot in the lead up to any

[00:44:49] Amit: of these tribute clips that you watch on him, they always had that scene, but it was so good, those scenes,

[00:44:55] Michael: all right, rocking through, I guess, category 10 control Z, this is where we look for the big do overs, the things you might have done differently, all right, we already mentioned.

The Public Theater, uh, in 2010. Yes. The one I had other than that was that he turned down the role that was played by Robert Hayes in Airplane.

[00:45:17] Amit: Yes. Ah, that was mine. It's the

[00:45:20] Michael: only time I saw him offered a leading man role. So, he got the script, took a look, and said, Ah, I'm not really seeing it. And he turns it down.

And then, a year later, He's talking with somebody who's like, have you seen the airplane? It's the hit of the summer. And he's like, Oh my God, how did I miss that role? And he went and watched it. And he, it's an interesting casting. What if, how he would have done, I mean, this is the main role. Basically, Robert Hayes is the pilot who, you know, saves the day in airplane.

What do you think? Is that, uh, should that have been Fred Willard? Or what would it have been like had Fred Willard played that part? Would it have changed the rest of his life? Or just the movie?

[00:46:00] Amit: Yeah, so, so I actually have the perfect answer for this. So he told his wife that, you know, after the movie became a success, he was like, oh darn it, I should have done that movie.

And what she said to him is, if you did it, It might not have been that good and I think that is the most beautifully succinct way to think about regrets. Yeah. You can say, Oh, I would have been in this movie and it would have gone like this. I missed out on. This leading role and these millions of dollars and this fame and fortune ahead of me.

No. That is crystal ball looking. You cannot place yourself in somebody else's role or in a choice you didn't take because you're making lots and lots of assumptions of what would have happened

[00:46:42] Michael: afterwards. Yeah, it's interesting. It also does speak to the quality of the marriage in a way. I mean, she is, as you said earlier, described as this loving, supporting woman, you know, who's really championing his career and creating community, you know, with other comedic talents in Hollywood.

And she says to him, it might not have been as good if you did it. Like, that's The kind of brutal honesty you want to hear in a marriage, like it or not. That's part of what you ask for in a spouse is somebody who lifts you up and takes you down just the right levels and just the right moments.

[00:47:12] Amit: Yeah. And I think this is the perfect way to look at just regrets in general.

Yeah. It's like what Nora Ephron said about, like, if I would have had larger breasts. And she was like, uh, you know, when I was a teenager, I wish I had larger breasts. But if I did, I could have been a completely different person. Yeah.

[00:47:27] Michael: And I, and I am who I was supposed to be. And maybe better off not having been in the movie Airplane.

Can you fly this plane and land it? Surely you can't be serious. I am serious. And don't call me Shirley. Second to last category, cocktail coffee cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. This may be a question of what drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person, or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part that we are most curious about.

I've got an answer, but I'm not confident in it. So

[00:48:02] Amit: I'll go. Normally I go for the intoxicants, uh, with Fred Willard I'm going coffee. I don't think I've seen anybody through all of our episodes as content as Fred Willard is. Just throughout his life and all the roles he did, all the interviews he gave, all the just offhand remarks, he just seems...

Consistently content, not over the moon, pumping his fists in the air, not the opposite, like showing despair. This goes back to the equanimity that he has in the role. This guy embodies contentment for me. And I don't know if that comes from a wisdom that he may have inside. Maybe he does have these magic words to live by that he can say over coffee, or emanate it.

And that's what I saw most in Fred Willard that I want.

[00:48:51] Michael: To gain from this has kind of been a question for me about him is, is he reserved in a kind of greatest generation? I guess they sometimes call it kind of way. Is he from a generation that has different boundaries around what emotions you do and do not show in any given moment?

There are some things about his life that look a little cookie cutter, in not a bad way, you know what I mean? I agree, there does seem to be a contented energy about him, but I'm also not 100% convinced I'm seeing the entire raw emotional truth of the man. Not that I'm supposed to, but I hear content. And I hear you describe it.

And I think he's got some sort of inner peace that I'm not as sure of, you know, I feel like there's, there's something, there's still some things I don't know about him. I don't know that I need to know him. I don't know if I'm curious about him, but I do feel like there, there is a, um. I don't know. There is a wall there somewhere, pretty deep down, but a wall that you don't get beyond if you really got to know the man.

Yeah, we have

[00:49:59] Amit: an inherent suspicion about that. That came up with Betty White a lot. There was a lot of people that didn't believe her eminence. There has to be something false to it. There has to be masking for something. And, you know, Certain people on the very, very inside may know, they may not. This is a completely, you know, inner feeling.

And the best we can do on our gut instinct is know how believable it is. And to me, for Fred Willard, it's

[00:50:25] Michael: believable. Let me ask you this question. Of our three options here, do you think most lends itself to improv? Cocktail. Yeah, that's where I went, too. So I had cocktail for that reason. I want to laugh at this guy, but I actually want to, like...

You want to play ball with him? Yeah, I want to perform, and I don't even need an audience. I don't need to be on stage. I mean, I think it would be fun to do improv with Fred Willard. And, like... See how far you could go without totally cracking up because I'm sure he would take it to absolutely absurd places and I think Cocktail, yes, but it would need to be something pretty light So maybe you know, maybe a nice cold light beer just to sort of like get a little silly but not too much Yeah, loosen the tongue a little bit.

Totally. I want to like Learn from Fred Willard. However crappy I am at it, I would love to give it a shot. Just cause I think it'd be fun as hell. Yeah,

[00:51:19] Amit: that's a good one. And it would be fun as hell.

[00:51:22] Michael: Can I watch? Yeah, absolutely. But, uh, but we're not publishing it. All right, I'm in. This came up fast. We've arrived.

The Vanderbeek. Named after James Vanderbeek, who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life. Fred Willard, what do you think? Case against? Yeah, that's where I'm at. How is this not an obvious yes? I wouldn't want to be caught in a porn theater in my late 70s, but I'm a comedic actor, I can laugh it off, and everybody else seems to have laughed it off.

Who gives a shit? I don't know. At the end of the day, I feel like you can still live with yourself. That's the one mark I saw against him. Five million's a little low, so maybe he's a bit exhausted, but man, he looks like he's having fun. Looks to be a good marriage. Looks to be a worthwhile life pursuit.

Have a sort of hidden contribution. You asked exactly the right question here. What is the case against? Do you have thoughts on that?

[00:52:22] Amit: I think range of emotion. Range of... character. Um, you know, it's, it's solid. It's all, it's all good. It's so good, you know, but he, he does play the same version of every character, which seems to be a version of at least the best public version of himself that we can see.

Uh, like you said, you have a suspicion about is, is there something behind the curtains that we can't detect? The only way to know that without being completely inside his head is a gut instinct, but the fact if you live to 86, you can rest assured that there's probably not a whole lot of turmoil going on inside your head.

Uh, but I do wonder about range and, and evolution. His comedy stayed relevant. His roles, he fit just as well into the Smothers Brothers in the 60s as he did Anchorman and Modern Family in the 2000s. Is that something that you

[00:53:20] Michael: would want though? That's an interesting question. I mean, one of the things I came out of the gate Really, you know bullish about with him is this hope and faith that it's going to work out and maybe we didn't explore that enough There's a element of his dreams were fulfilled in that.

He's he built a long Career and was a working actor so he was able to do it So it had a sort of you know economic stability to it But did it also have an inner validation if this is a calling which it sort of looks like? it might be comedy or comedic acting, you know, did he meet his potential? Did he fulfill his, you know, complete expression in terms of what was possible given his talents?

To your point, he's in a kind of narrow range in what he's doing in those things. So was there something left on the table, right? Was there something that he could have done And it's interesting, because you drew attention to bold and beautiful. That kind of hints that maybe he had that thought too. Why else go on a soap opera other than, Yeah, I never did get to flex that muscle exactly.

I see that, I do. I don't, I think it's a good answer to the question of case against. But it feels like a reach to me, and I'm going to just go ahead and call it for me. I'm a yes. I want your life, Fred Willard. This looks like a really fun life. And there's just too much here that's, like, clearly desirable to me.

Yeah, I'm,

[00:54:51] Amit: I'm there with you, right? You know, I, I say lack of range, and I, and I do mean that, and I am curious about that. And that is. A hesitation, but if you look at least at range within what he did, there is no wider range that you can find, uh, through the, the course of his entire career. So yeah, I, I'm suspicious on the range of character, the range of emotion, uh, But I'm going to rest on contentment.

This looks like a validated public life. You made a lot of people laugh, didn't seem to have any adversaries, and we're content. So yes, I want your life,

[00:55:30] Michael: Fred Willard. I need more people like this in my life where, like, if they show up on my screen, I am just automatically in a better mood. Um, that's a real gift, you know, and that's a real, uh, that's, that's a real thing to aspire to.

I know that I want to have that from the inside out. Maybe that's the big lesson here. Amit, you are Fred Willard. You have died and you have, uh, ascended to the pearly gates where you meet St. Peter and you have an opportunity to make your pitch. What is your contribution to the stream of life?

[00:56:07] Amit: St. Peter, I am gonna tell you how to be funny.

The answer is don't force it. Don't force funny. Don't act funny. Just let things come out. Do you know how to be great? Don't force it. Just keep going and keep doing it. And your greatness and your funniness will come out. And... The more you do it, and the more you believe in yourself, the more you can make the entire world laugh their pants off.

Am I dead? What happened? Let me in.

[00:56:51] Michael: Thanks again to Saul Osterlitz for joining us on this episode of Famous Gravy. Saul's new book is called Kind of a Big Deal, How Anchorman Stayed Classy. and became the most iconic comedy of the 21st century. We'll link to it in the show notes. Famous and Gravy listeners, if you're interested in participating in our opening quiz where we reveal the dead celebrity, please send us an email.

You can reach us at hello at famous and gravy dot com. And if you're enjoying our show, please tell your friends. You can find us on Twitter. We're also on threads, and our handle is at Famous and Gravy. We have a newsletter which you can sign up for on our website, famous eng gravy.com. Famous Eng Gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne.

This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss, original theme music by Kevin Strang. Thank you so much again for listening. Stay classy. See you next time.