060 Geto Man transcript (Bushwick Bill)

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[00:00:00] Amit: It's time for Famous Gravy, life lessons from dead celebrities. Now for the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

[00:00:08] Michael: This person died 2019, age 52. He was born in Kingston, Jamaica. Not Chris Blackwell. In the late 1980s, the influential producer Rick Rubin signed his group, but Rubin was forced to find a new distributor after his original distributor declined to release the album over its graphic.

[00:00:33] content.

[00:00:33] Friend: God Rick Rubin.

[00:00:35] Michael: I thought you'd like this.

[00:00:36] Friend: Graphic content. Born in Jamaica. Uhh.

[00:00:41] Michael: He had an early brush with death in 1991. High on PCP and grain alcohol, he got into an altercation with his girlfriend and was shot in the right eye. In interviews, he said he'd been pronounced dead, toe tagged, and taken to the morgue.

[00:00:55] Friend: DMX?

[00:00:57] Michael: No, but good guess. He was born with dwarfism and stood approximately three feet.

[00:01:03] Friend: Oh that's short. Who was that?

[00:01:07] Michael: He was a member of the Geto Boys, whose biggest single was Mind Playing Tricks On Me.

[00:01:13] Friend: Oh! Bushwick Bill!

[00:01:14] Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Bushwick Bill.

[00:01:21] Archival: I am a breakdancing genius. Now, see, um, when I was young, I was into graffiti, breakdancing, and DJing, and then later on found out I could rap, but I'm a part of the five elements of hip hop as far as breakdancing, producing, DJing, and writing graffiti. It's, yeah, it's all the same. Now that I'm older, I feel all those pains in my

[00:01:40] joints. Why should people care about Bushwick Bill? They don't

[00:01:45] have to. As long as I love me, I'm happy. Because if I really was worried about what people thought about me, my arms are short. You know what I mean? I'm short. I'm not average height. I can't reach everything everybody else could reach. If I would have believed the things that people told me when I was younger, I wouldn't even think I could accomplish half the things I've accomplished.

[00:02:04] So they don't really have to like me. What they need to do is love themselves because I love me and like me and I'm happy with me all by my damn self.

[00:02:16] Michael: Welcome to Famous Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne,

[00:02:19] Amit: and my name is Amit Kapoor. Michael and I are looking for ways to make life better. And we believe that the best years might lie ahead.

[00:02:27] Michael: So, on this show, we choose a celebrity who died in the last ten years, and we go through a series of categories, reviewing their lives, to extract wisdom and inspiration.

[00:02:38] And at the end, we answer the question, Would I want that life? Today, Bushwick Bill died 2019, age 52. So to kick things off today, we are very lucky to be joined by professor Charles Hughes, who's the author of the book, Why Bushwick Bill Matters. Professor Hughes, thank you for joining us. Thank you for having me.

[00:02:59] It's great to be here. When we were first talking about doing this episode, Amit, I think it was you who told me about Charles's

[00:03:06] Amit: book. Yeah, that's right. So when we were kind of like making our shortlist for the celebrities that we wanted to talk about, Bushwick Bill was on my list. But we knew there are, could be possible limitations of not enough source material.

[00:03:18] So as I was Googling around my short list of who I wanted to talk about, I came upon Charles's book, sent it to you, and I said, this is a reason to bump him up the list.

[00:03:28] Michael: You know, before we get into category one, grading the first line of the O bit, I would like you to read just a little bit from the book, which, by the way, I read not once, but one and a half times.

[00:03:38] I frickin loved this book. I thought it was, like, provocative and interesting, and it got the wheels turning in a lot of ways. So, well done, sir. Oh, well, I really appreciate that. I do want to ask why you wanted to write this book in the first place, and sort of to get into that, I thought I might have you read an excerpt from the book.

[00:03:55] For

[00:03:55] Charles: sure living as a short statured person I can front of world that wasn't built for me and is continually disrupted by my presence I've been perceived as childlike and seen my body considered a problem and I've experienced the fact that whether or not we work as performers. Those of us who are perceived as disabled live our lives on stage.

[00:04:17] No matter who we are or where we go, we are always the, quote, human exhibits of the freak shows. Forced to consider what scholar Rosemary Garland Thompson calls our, quote, extraordinary bodies. and how they might be interpreted and stared at by normal folks. Bushwick Bill has given me a booming soundtrack for my attempts to navigate that world and survive that hyper visibility.

[00:04:44] In his defiance and joy, Bushwick Bill remains a role model for me in how to live as a short person in all its messy complexity. So although what follows is not a memoir, I hope to honor how Bushwick Bill has improved my life as I consider his broader impact on the world.

[00:05:03] Amit: So those words that you just evoked and your, your actual affinity for Bushwick Bill, does that actually date back to the ascendancy of the ghetto boys in the late 80s, early 90s?

[00:05:13] Has he always been that kind of figure to you? Well, it's not

[00:05:17] Charles: quite the ascendancy period. I got to them a little bit later, but Certainly for the last 20 some years, which is, you know, complicated. I talk in the book about how there's ways in which we were very much not similar. In fact, the next sentence of the book is, I'm white, right?

[00:05:37] Like, I don't want to make a sort of claim that we had the same experience by any stretch. But absolutely, for a long time, he's someone who I've kind of thought of. As someone who speaks to a particular part of my experience in a way that I've found Really sustaining in all its complexity and in all the many ways That he expressed

[00:05:57] Michael: that the word complexity is I think gonna do a lot of work in this conversation in a way I mean, there's some really problematic Aspects about bushwick bill's legacy the ghetto boys legacy whether it's you know, misogyny or homophobia or whatever At the same time, it's an incredible story and you know, there's also a kind of unfiltered, you know in your face confrontational symbol here that's like Fascinating, inarguable, so I guess I really wanted you to read that passage in part because the word role model comes up there and that is something that in a way is at the heart of our show that we don't want to put celebrities on any kind of pedestal.

[00:06:37] At the same time, people become celebrities for a reason and there's something to be learned from their, you know, symbolic representations, whether it's in their art or in their personality or a combination of both. There's a world in which we record a whole podcast only about the book, but that's not what we brought you here for.

[00:06:54] We brought you here to help grade the first line of his New York Times obituary. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Bushwick Bill, who helped inject vivid psychological horror and lightly morbid comedy into Southern hip hop storytelling in becoming one of the genre's most recognizable characters, died on Sunday at a Colorado hospital.

[00:07:19] He

[00:07:19] Amit: was 52. Immediate reaction, they didn't even mention the ghetto boys. I know! I

[00:07:25] Michael: couldn't believe it! How do you not mention the ghetto boys in the first line of Bushwick Bill's obituary? Okay, so, we gotta start there. Should they have? I mean, it seems like that's what you know him most for. It felt like an oversight, but it also, it's such a glaring oversight that it felt deliberate.

[00:07:42] Charles, please help us out.

[00:07:43] Charles: It's kind of interesting to me when you mention that, on the one hand, I kind of love that he's just kind of pulled out of the group and brought into just who he was, because he also, you know, he had like a long solo career and became certainly his own public person. On the other hand, yeah, I mean, it is kind of too bad that right at the top, this group that people will have heard of, even if they don't know who Bush or Bill is.

[00:08:06] Because he was so central to them, certainly to their development as a group. So yeah, it is kind of a funny thing, because it would have only taken like four more words,

[00:08:13] Michael: too. Yeah, I, I, I, I think I don't like it. Amit, what's your

[00:08:18] Amit: take? It seems deliberate to me, and possibly done in earnest. Like, to... I, as Charles said, to isolate Bushwick Bill as a significant figure independent of the group that he was a part of.

[00:08:31] But I don't think that's a fair justice to the general public, right? They need to know, and the job of the first line is to say, why do you know this person? And I think the adjectives they use are worth a ton of discussion, but I think not fair to exclude the Ghetto Boys.

[00:08:45] Michael: That totally stood out to me. On the other hand, there is a lot I love about this.

[00:08:51] Vivid, psychological horror and lightly morbid comedy? I love that contrast, right? This whole, like, horrorcore genre, which was not a term I had heard of before doing the Before reading Charles book, that. Horrorcore. What exactly is horrorcore? Well,

[00:09:10] Charles: horrorcore is often Hip hop that is very explicitly drawing on the imagery of kind of horror movies, dark and sometimes very violent fantasies, right?

[00:09:22] Um, and so, you know, you have the Ghetto Boys, you have Grave Diggers, Three 6 Mafia in Memphis, there's a few of these kind of artists. Drawing on this sort of longer, uh, southern gothic tradition

[00:09:35] Amit: and other things. And Eminem is the most widespread example of it, probably. No, but yeah,

[00:09:39] Charles: it can be really intense stuff.

[00:09:40] But it is horrorcore, right? It's designed to be like, you're supposed to know this is not a straight Reporting of what someone has done or feels

[00:09:49] Michael: This year halloween fell on a weekend Me and ghetto boys are trick or treating Robbing little kids for bags Telling them and got behind our ass It was dark as fuck on the streets.

[00:10:02] My hands were all bloody but punching on the concrete Goddamn, homie My mind is playing tricks on me It also does sort of evoke for me at least the like very famous image of the album cover with Bushwick Bill on the gurney. If there's one thing I remember about The Ghetto Boys, it was that image, which has a sort of horror movie atmosphere around it.

[00:10:27] It also connotates, and this is also something I didn't know about Bushwick Bill until reading your book, the child's play Chucky thing that the like sort of alternate stage persona that he sort of dabbles in. Maybe that's not the best way to describe it, but you know what I'm getting at. Yeah, so he,

[00:10:42] Charles: he was very interested in kind of developing a persona.

[00:10:47] Around the character of chucky from the child's play movies because he loved movies. He loved horror movies and stuff so the way that chucky worked for bush bill, uh was that chucky could be this kind of alter ego that was You know, this sort of, uh, out of control, slightly evil, but also kind of funny, short character who people didn't take seriously until he made them realize why they should.

[00:11:11] And Bill talked about something to the effect of, Hey, he's short. I'm short. This makes sense. Right? So it allows him to be funny and to be kind of. Trickster figure in a sense.

[00:11:23] Michael: The world's smallest killer. I can't wait till they bury me. Every arm I chop off, I give the fingers to charity. Sometimes I'm seen, sometimes I'm a pitchfork, sometimes I'm guillotine.

[00:11:33] Extra ketchup on them french fries. As a short

[00:11:35] Charles: person, I kind of love the idea of like, The character who nobody takes seriously, and then you find out that, yeah, you might want to take the short, quote, cute thing seriously. Yeah. That's very, very resonant with my experience. So let's

[00:11:49] Amit: talk about that for a second.

[00:11:50] So you used the word funny a few times, Charles. What was the New York Times simile for funny they used? Lightly morbid comedy. Lightly morbid comedy. I don't know where to place that. Charles, what do you think that lightly morbid comedy means? But yeah,

[00:12:04] Charles: totally the Chucky character and certainly his verse and mine's playing tricks on me Lightly is actually what I think is kind of weird there because like some of that stuff is not particularly light Either as uh morbid or as comedy, right and the ghetto boys at times were not funny at all but at other times were absolutely Very much trying at least to be funny and the over exaggeration Of a lot of the stuff in their records I mean, if you listen to it, and you think this is what it's really like for these guys, I mean, the joke's on you.

[00:12:35] Amit: Oh

[00:12:37] Michael: boy! My mother was a hypocrite, so I shot him in the head. Holy water, bless the dead is what I said. Then heard the demon screaming as his body bled. Now I stole from the poor.

[00:12:51] Charles: That doesn't excuse some of the Kind of, uh, problematic and even really, like, nasty stuff, they said on some records. But, you know, it's, like, some of it's really funny, and so, yeah, I don't have a problem with a morbid comedy, and I agree with you that I really like that they put that in there, but lightly is strange.

[00:13:06] What does that even mean, like? Sprinkled over the top. I don't know. Like, it seems much more fundamental, you know, in a brilliant way to what he did and what they did than just

[00:13:15] Michael: lightly. There's a better adverb out there to be had, I think. But I think the point here is that, like, injecting vivid psychological horror and lightly morbid comedy into Southern hip hop storytelling, this is a reasonably well informed First line of an obituary.

[00:13:31] Like this is somebody who understood this group and then to have that and to not say the ghetto boys and to be talking about Bill sort of in isolation, that is still striking to me. Well, are we ready for this? Should we grade the first line? I can do it.

[00:13:48] Amit: Eight pretty much loved everything, but I agree with Charles.

[00:13:53] I don't know what was light about the morbid comedy and then exclusion of the ghetto boys, but I am otherwise just so impressed that they actually captured the character as well as the region that he helped elevate. That could have easily been left out. So that's why I'm giving it extra points, despite the deductions.

[00:14:11] Eight. You

[00:14:12] Michael: know what? I want to point out something else that they did not point out. His height, his stature. Yep. I was going

[00:14:17] Amit: to mention that too. I didn't even realize that.

[00:14:19] Michael: It's not in there. Oh my God. Yeah. Oh,

[00:14:22] Charles: Charles, please. You know, you never want to be like, why didn't you mention that? You know, but like, as I talk about in the book, I mean, he talked a lot on record and elsewhere about.

[00:14:30] In short, and it's interesting that kind of what's implied there in recognizable figure, you know, he was recognizable for a very particular reason, right? And that's not a bad thing. You know, you always, it's tough, like when you're dealing with how you should talk about disabled folks about, you know, to what level they themselves foregrounded or describe or whatever.

[00:14:51] But yeah, I mean, you know, just I noticed that. But again, it's more about the like, Well, you mentioned that he was recognizable because again, it was central to how he approached his work. I mean, he was kind of talking about that. It's like he has entire songs that are all about. The variety of things that he's experienced because of his shortness.

[00:15:12] So yeah, that was noticeable. Again, I don't necessarily think it's a huge deduction, but I would also say like when, as soon as I heard recognizable, I'm like, Oh, right. What made him recognizable? Yes, they were famous, but it wasn't just about that.

[00:15:22] Michael: So, uh, Amit, do you want to amend your score or do you want to

[00:15:25] Amit: keep it?

[00:15:26] I can't believe I didn't notice it. I'll, I'll take it down to seven. I'm also going

[00:15:30] Michael: seven for exactly that reason. I love the rest of the O bit, but I feel like extra work is being done, and I don't feel like that was necessary. I feel like you could have captured it all, and it would have told the audience why you know this person and what their contribution is.

[00:15:46] And that's what we need from the first line of the O bit. But the language is good. The verbiage is good. Charles, what do you

[00:15:51] Charles: got? I'm going to give it an A, just because I really appreciated how it was sort of framed around his work, right? Because I just got so used to reading profiles of Bush and Bill, or discussions of Bush and Bill, or obituaries about Bush and Bill, that were really framed around the sort of more sensationalistic parts of his life.

[00:16:12] And they felt in some cases, very kind of... Not just demeaning, but sort of exoticizing, or like there was kind of taking, taking him into just this sort of spectacle area, which is another thing that is very recognizable when people talk about disabled folks. So I really appreciate that, that it's like, if you don't know Bush McBill at all, what you're going to take from that first sentence is this kind of approach that he had artistically and what it meant to him.

[00:16:37] Boy, not only could it have been a lot worse, but I've seen both from when he was alive and from after he was gone, just ones that were really centering the kind of sensational parts of his legacy that almost completely erased that he even made

[00:16:53] Michael: music in the first place. I mean, in a way, it's more humanizing that way, right?

[00:16:56] And I think that those tendencies towards exoticism are ultimately dehumanizing. That's the fucking problem with them. Mm hmm. No, for sure. Well, cool. All right. Seven, seven, and eight. Let's move on. Category two, five things I love about you. Here, Amit, Charles, and I are going to come up with five reasons why we love this person, why we want to be talking about them in the first place.

[00:17:16] Charles, do you have something you'd like to contribute to our five things I love about you category? I sure

[00:17:20] Charles: do. I mean, there's a lot of them but uh, One of them that I always like to mention when I talk about him and that I think is so important especially because we're recording this in the 50th anniversary of hip hop is that You know, Bushwick Bill is really at the beginnings of when hip hop emerged.

[00:17:37] He's living as a Jamaican immigrant in Brooklyn, and he is a breakdancer. He's a graffiti artist. It's funny, of the various elements of hip hop culture, as outlined by KRS One, Rapping is one of the last ones he came to because he was doing all these other things And he tells these really great stories the way in which whether it was in new york Or then later when he moved to houston how he really represented this direct connection to hip hop's roots And that's something I didn't fully appreciate about him even until I started working on this was like, I knew he was from Jamaica and I knew he had been in New York, but he brings that with him and he's so important in part with the ghetto boys because he's hip hop through and through at the most basic and elemental way.

[00:18:18] And in this 50th anniversary year, when we're celebrating hip hop, I just love that we get to talk about him in that way as well. And

[00:18:26] Amit: he was at the center of it, right? By his early days actually being in Bushwick, that was pretty much where, in 1973, hip hop originated. So,

[00:18:35] Charles: the South Bronx folks will tell you that it was the South Bronx.

[00:18:37] And indeed, the South Bronx may have been the epicenter, but he was there when it started, and he understood it, you know, and brought that with him. He wasn't just this figure that became part of the ghetto boys because he was, quote, recognizable, right? To go back to our old bit. I'd love to point that out that like Richard Shaw before he split with Bill break dancing in New York in the late 70s.

[00:19:00] And writing graffiti. I just love that

[00:19:01] Michael: image, you know before we leave So one of our latter categories is man in the mirror. How do we think somebody felt about their own reflection? I think that there's a lot of questions. I have about self acceptance when it comes to bushwick bill and I think that you know his struggles with addiction and his You know braggadocio persona and so forth and I think that there's like super duper strong arguments on both sides for a lot of self acceptance and A lot of room for self judgment as well.

[00:19:29] I wonder if you have parting wisdom for us on that category. It's coming later, but it's something I want to be thinking about as we're leading up

[00:19:36] Charles: to it. I'm so grateful to hear you frame it in that way, right? I don't know what he thought about himself. I can only say kind of what he put in his art and what he sort of said and did in public.

[00:19:49] And he was. Willing to celebrate himself and how he looked and how he was, even as he also really was open and talked about the things that could make his life difficult, right? And I'll say this just as my parting words, maybe about this is like, I don't know how he felt about the man in his mirror, but he definitely has made me feel better about the man in mine.

[00:20:11] And not in a kind of easy or inspirational kind of way, but just the way in which he approached being a short person in a tall world and being a person dealing with kind of disability in an ableist society, an ableist context. Even though I don't think he ever used the word ableism, I don't think he ever used even the word disability that I could find.

[00:20:29] So I hope that he understands. The impact that he had on a lot of people. I hope he loved the man in the mirror that he saw. But,

[00:20:38] Michael: I don't know. Thank you for that answer because it really, in my mind, speaks to the North Star of what our podcast is all about. So your answer really spoke to that in an awesome way.

[00:20:47] So, Charles, thank you so much again for making time for this. Uh, what a pleasure. Congratulations on an awesome book. We'll link to it in the show notes. And everything you're doing. It's just, it's been a real pleasure to learn about you. Oh, thank you

[00:20:58] Charles: so much. And it's been great to take part in this, get to know you guys a little bit.

[00:21:02] I've really enjoyed it. Thank you

[00:21:03] Michael: for having me. All right. Amit, shall I take number two in our five things? Uh, yes, go for it. Okay. This is a little on the nose, but I kind of get it in there. Mental health and pop culture pioneer. See most of my life I never had shit. I felt like an outcast treated like a misfit Damn near didn't make it on my day of birth thinking was I really supposed to be on this planet earth I take a deep breath and then another follows Because hard shit is

[00:21:35] So there's a lot in the Ghetto Boys catalog as well as in Bushwick Bill's solo work that gets at mental health struggles. There's this very famous moment in his life in 1991 where he, it's essentially a suicide attempt. Fucked up on Everclear. He gets, uh, in a, in a sort of spat with his girlfriend, and she ends up shooting him and it destroys his eye.

[00:22:00] Yeah, there's

[00:22:01] Amit: a lot of accounts of this, but it was also instigated by him with the intention of her killing him.

[00:22:06] Michael: Right, it's a very complicated story, but this is what leads to the very famous image on the cover of, what's the album again, We Can't Be Stopped? Yep. There's also, what is the, uh, Mind of a Lunatic, and then Ever So Clear, where he tells the story about all this.

[00:22:20] Like, throughout his catalog, he's pretty forthcoming with this internal war of, you know, self acceptance versus self judgment. And the way he puts that on display, I can't think of somebody who is quite as provocative in the creative display of, uh, mental health struggles. And I think it's desirable in a way, because we all need to be reminded of how hard life is, and how much is going on inside, and how much we're all, you know, struggling inside, whether we've been diagnosed with, uh, you know, something or not, or whether we're born a certain way or not, whether we live with disabilities or not.

[00:23:02] So, uh, I love that about Bishop Bill. Okay, uh, what do you got for number three? Belonging to

[00:23:07] Amit: a group. So this is not an exclusive Bushwick Bill thing, but we haven't had a chance to talk about it in the context of anyone else on Famous Gravy. What I have divulged many times on the show is how much of a hip hop fan I was as a young teenager.

[00:23:23] You know, I, I liked the music. You know, I, I didn't necessarily fully understand or comprehend the lyrics as in an adult, mature way, but one thing I really admired about it was this. I got your back brotherhood feeling to being in a group and these people seemingly being like best friends, essentially having consistent belonging.

[00:23:45] There are spats. We know that there are feuds over money, there are fights over rights. All of that is known, but it is incredibly desired to be a part of an adult group. Like, there's this whole things on group theories that, you know, anything over seven doesn't constitute a certain closeness. But what you have in these These smaller rap groups, and I look at the ones that I really cared about, Ghetto Boys certainly being one, NWA, Public Enemy, they all have problematic issues as far as violence, misogyny, homophobia, Public Enemy much less so, but I really love the shit out of it.

[00:24:18] That idea to be part. Of a power group, and I think a hip hop group is very different from a rock group in that way, because their lyrics also echo how much they have each other's back, how much they are brothers, and how much that matters in terms of real life adulthood and spirit of living. I

[00:24:41] Michael: love that one.

[00:24:42] I'm a good one. Okay, my thing number four, willingness to confront hypocrites. Like, it is a little hard to overstate that when the ghetto boys were the hip hop group in the early 90s, like, I'm not sure younger people appreciate just how fierce the kind of First Amendment Wars were the political like bob dole who of course we covered in episode 48 Did not care for the ghetto boys and was calling them out explicitly And bushwick bill is making the point that like look you are promoting guns and roses.

[00:25:17] You're promoting arnold schwarzenegger There are all kinds of violent depictions and over the top You know, misogyny, like references to sex in white pop culture, and that is fucking hypocritical. And one thing that is, I think, exciting about hip hop always is how confrontational it can be. And confronting the hypocrisy of the entertainment industry at this moment, like he was a principal spokesperson for all of those political battles.

[00:25:45] That is desirable to me. However problematic Bushwick Bill may be in terms of homophobia, misogyny, and so forth, there is a standing up for a principle in all of that through creativity and through art that I find on its face desirable. So that's my number four. Did you want to add to that or

[00:26:03] Amit: yeah, I was just going to say on the Bob Dole thing.

[00:26:05] So first of all, he thanked Bob Dole and said, by the way, by singling us out and singling me out, you just sold 300, 000 records. So thank you, Bob Dole. Secondly, he also said that, you know, you are the one that backs policy that allows the sale of semi automatic weapons. I sell records with Bushwick Bills names on it, which is more likely to kill somebody.

[00:26:25] We had very poignant facts in challenging the hypocrites.

[00:26:29] Michael: What do you got for number five?

[00:26:30] Amit: Uh, college. Do you know where Bushwick Bill went to college?

[00:26:34] Michael: It was in Minnesota, I think it was a Bible school? Bible college? He was going to be a missionary, right? Yeah,

[00:26:39] Amit: he went to Bible college and he was going to, his idea after he completed was, he was getting ready to be on a missionary trip to India.

[00:26:46] He left turned, landed in Houston. But my point is this is Bushwick Bill, the man whose first line of the obituary talks about horror lyrics, mild comedy, southern hip hop. Would you have expected that man to go to Bible college? No, and I'm not, and I'm not merely talking about the moralistic ideals that that person might hold because that could wholly be a number six.

[00:27:10] And it's very interesting how that came full circle. But I think that will come up in this conversation. But he also defied stereotypes, I think. as a rapper, as a young black person, and as a member of the hip hop community, and that he was seemingly smart as hell. So he went to Bible college not because he was a diehard Christian that was part of it, but he's also a scholar of the Bible.

[00:27:34] He would say Bible verses. He would memorize them. The man would quote Shakespeare. Chuck D, who is probably the leader of Public Enemy, who's probably known as one of the most intellectual rappers out there, said this quote, probably one of the highest IQs of any rapper I've ever known. So the man defied not one stereotype, but at least two, if not three or four.

[00:27:59] The two that I'm focusing on for the five things I love about you, I'm wrapping up in the word college, let's just call it scholar.

[00:28:06] Michael: Love it. That's a good number five. Okay, let's recap. Uh thing number one charles said hip hop through and through Uh thing number two, I said mental health and pop culture pioneer number three You said belonging to a small group number four.

[00:28:21] I said willingness to confront hypocrites and number five you said College Scholar. All right, let's take a break.

[00:28:32] Amit: Michael, do you know one of the ways in which I'm cool?

[00:28:37] Michael: What did you have in mind? I have vinyl records. Oh, that is cool. Vinyl records are a lot of fun. I love studying the old covers, and I love that the music is actually on the record, right?

[00:28:48] It's like been engraved.

[00:28:49] Amit: Totally, and you will never guess where I buy my vinyl records from.

[00:28:53] Michael: I would assume that you are going to... That

[00:28:57] Amit: is incorrect. I exclusively get my vinyl records at Half Price

[00:29:01] Michael: Books. I'm sorry, you said Half Price Books, and you're talking about

[00:29:04] Amit: vinyl records? Yes, Half Price Books is more than books.

[00:29:08] Board games, vinyl records, CDs, movies, puzzles, and even books. Brand new

[00:29:13] Michael: bestsellers. My goodness. It's so much more than just books. Yes. But when it comes to books, I do know that Half Price Books is the nation's largest new and used bookseller, with 120 stores in 19 states. And Half Price Books is also online at hpb.

[00:29:30] com.

[00:29:35] Famous and Gravy listeners, I've got a podcast I want to tell you about called Surely You Can't Be Serious. I've got to say, I have gotten so into this show. So, on Famous and Gravy, we tend to look at biographies and life stories of dead celebrities. This show, Surely You Can't Be Serious, is... Kind of a nice companion to Famous Gravy because they're talking about the great pop culture from the 80s and 90s.

[00:30:00] Kind of right in that Famous Gravy zone. Jason Colvin and James D are the hosts, and they usually pit two iconic movies or albums against each other. Like Jaws versus Jurassic Park, or Appetite for Destruction versus Back in Black. Right now they're doing a thing with a Cure album that I didn't know about but that I've come to love.

[00:30:20] Versus a Depeche Mode album, so it's this great debate about, you know, what made good pop culture in the 80s and 90s. If you're into famous and gravy, I think you would love the Surely You Can't Be Serious podcast. Check it out wherever you get your podcasts. We'll provide links to it in the show notes.

[00:30:39] Alright, Category 3, Malkovich, Malkovich. This category is named after the movie, Being John Malkovich, in which people take a portal into John Malkovich's mind and they can have a front row seat to his experiences. This actually segues out of your Thing No. 5, College. So, Bushwick Bill was... destined to be a missionary.

[00:30:59] He was going to go to India after he went to Bible school. He goes and visits his sister in Houston and starts going to the clubs there and starts getting connected with the hip hop scene in Houston. My Malkovich moment is the moment he decides to not go to India and to stay in Houston. This man's life trajectory looked like it was going in a totally different direction.

[00:31:25] And the histories I read kind of gloss over this very pivotal decision to be like, No, I am in a place where this makes sense for me to be. Houston, Texas of all places, which at that point did not have Mainstream Houston hip hop artists on the map, right? I mean, this is, this is not what this city was known for at that time.

[00:31:46] That's changed. I think Houston is very much on the map now. I want to know, and I think actually this probably does speak to your thing you love number three, you know, what was the moment where he decided? I'm not going to go to India. I'm going to stay here. It's a Malkovich moment, mostly because it's a curiosity moment.

[00:32:05] I want to know what happened there. And I also, I love these little forks in the road. These small decisions of, well, I'm not going to go be a missionary. Instead, I'm going to stay here and dance in the Houston clubs. And it winds up leading him on this totally different journey. I wonder how he thinks back on it, but I also wonder what in Intuitive experience he had that kept him in Houston at that moment.

[00:32:32] So that's my malkovich. Uh, what do you

[00:32:34] Amit: got? So in, damn it feels good to be a gangster. Bushwick, bill Rhymes. A line that says, though I was born in Jamaica, now I'm in the US making bills.

[00:32:43] Michael: Damn. It feels good to be a gangster, feeding the poor and helping out with their bills. Although I was born in Jamaica, Now I'm in the U.

[00:32:52] S. making deals. Damn, it feels good to be a gangster. I mean, one that you don't really know. Riding around town in a drop top Benz Hitting switches in my

[00:33:02] Amit: black 6 4. He never became a citizen. So in 2010, so at this point, we're 20 years past him losing the eye, past the ghetto boys going platinum, but he gets arrested on a marijuana

[00:33:16] Michael: possession.

[00:33:17] Marijuana and coke, I believe, if this is the 2010 charge. Yeah, I guess so.

[00:33:21] Amit: Either way, it was a third strike. So, Bushwick Bill gets, basically, just slapped on the wrist, and he's excited, and then the judge says, uh, Okay, go left, and you're next proceeding. And going left means he is facing ICE, which is ICE is, uh, do you know what it stands for?

[00:33:38] Michael: Immigrations and Customs Enforcement. Yes.

[00:33:40] Amit: So what that means is he is facing deportation because he is not a citizen of the United States. And the possibilities is he might just get sent to Canada or Mexico to live out the rest of his life. And that's the Malkovich is I want to know, what do you think about this unlikely story of coming from Jamaica as a short person, making it against all odds, becoming a star living against all odds with the amount of gun violence and drugs that went through both his system and his surroundings.

[00:34:19] You have lived the American dream and the American nightmare at the same time, but now you have to possibly envision living out the rest of your life more or less alone in Canada or Mexico. And I want to know what it feels like at that point. What do you think

[00:34:32] Michael: it feels like? Terrifying. I

[00:34:34] Amit: think it could be two things.

[00:34:35] It could be because we're, we're near the finding Christ again, years of Bushwick bill. It could be one pure dread, like how the fuck could I have beat all these odds? And this is what they're going to take me away for or number two. And this is kind of the wishful thinking is thank God start over.

[00:34:55] Michael: Yeah, I wonder about that.

[00:34:57] And I don't think that that's so wishful and crazy. I sense in Bushwick Bill's story, a sense of destiny. And this is somebody who survived death. I mean, he was, when he lost his eye, he was in the morgue with a toe tag on, and then like woke up like, hey, what's happening? I mean that, at least according to him.

[00:35:15] Not only that, he also said that his mother told a story about, uh, he was breached at birth. Like, she, they almost lost both of them. At the moment of his arrival into, onto planet earth, in a way, his story does feel like one of like sort of cosmic destiny at times. So uh, if you get deported to Canada or Mexico in the mid forties after your hip hop run, maybe that's just what your higher power wants of you next.

[00:35:42] Maybe he could have that interpretation,

[00:35:44] Amit: right? It's either like. Oh, damn. Or this

[00:35:47] Michael: is God's plan, right? Exactly. There's a comfort in that idea, whether you buy into it or not. I think that there can be a comfort in that idea. I think he had that at times. Okay. Category four, love and marriage. How many marriages?

[00:36:00] Also, how many kids? And is there anything public about these relationships? So I found no record of any marriages. Uh, there are children. Um, his son who is a fairly well known hip hop artist now, right? Um, Charles spoke a lot about him in his book and in interviews afterwards. Young Nose, I think is his name.

[00:36:20] Uh, and then there are also a number of daughters. By the way, it also looks like his son was an adopted son, and I think it's the same child who was there during this infamous 1991 losing his eyeball shooting, because he talks about it. Um, he, and he mentioned sort of in an off way, offhanded way, adopted son.

[00:36:37] I don't know if that was a formal adoption or not, but he was certainly like with Bushwick Bill up until his dying days. Any regrets in your career? There's none. I wouldn't have any regrets. And I mean, that's why I told my son I didn't really want him to speak today because he has to get to know me.

[00:36:53] It's like, that's my journey now. It's like, whatever life happened when you couldn't be around me as a kid, whatever that situation was, now take the time to get to know me. Sit here and actually listen to the interview and see what your dad is feeling so you know something. You don't really know how long you have your dad.

[00:37:09] Relish all

[00:37:10] Amit: these moments.

[00:37:11] Michael: A lot of the rest of the family had kind of steered clear of the spotlight. And whenever I find that, I'm like, man, I just don't like continuing to Google. I don't see a whole lot of long term partnership with a single person. And it also looks more than anything like he kind of fell for the typical trappings of fame.

[00:37:31] He had a complicated relationship with women in part because of how famous he was and what it meant to be a pop star. So I didn't have much to draw in the way of conclusions other than what you pointed out earlier. Yes,

[00:37:44] Amit: all we know is one on again, off again girlfriend who was the mother of his adopted child.

[00:37:52] One thing to note is that he did very later in life, try to become a father figure. Yes. And especially with the son, KNUX, you know, try to be a mentor towards his career. Does that erase, you know, where you were about in, uh, the early years of child rearing? I think absolutely not. It is problematic. I don't know what to say.

[00:38:14] I don't know if that's editorially correct, but I don't see anything good about this. I don't either.

[00:38:21] Michael: I see a man who struggles with feeling alone, and does so in his art and in his personal life, and I think that bears out a little bit

[00:38:32] Amit: in his family life. Yeah, and sorry, and back to your thing you love number two, is possibly biologically predisposed to a disease, to mental

[00:38:38] Michael: illness.

[00:38:39] Yes, I think that's 100 percent right. So I didn't see a lot to be learned from here. Kind of uncomfortable, let's just leave it at that, but let's probably

[00:38:46] Amit: move on, yeah? It kind of reminds me of the Nora Ephron, Jacob Bernstein thing. The dad pulled these shenanigans basically while she was pregnant, but they mended a relationship 25 years later.

[00:38:58] Michael: Bushwick Bill and Nora Ephron. I like it. The pattern matching on Famous and Gravy continues. Uh, alright. Category 5. Net worth. Do you see what I saw? One and a

[00:39:09] Amit: half million?

[00:39:10] Michael: That's what I saw. Yeah. This may be an all time low for a famous, I don't know, was there somebody?

[00:39:16] Amit: Well, I think like Nelson Mandela was surprisingly low, but that makes some sense.

[00:39:21] It, it's definitely down there. We, I don't think we've ever had just pure six

[00:39:24] Michael: figures. So how much digging did you do to learn more about net worth here? I didn't

[00:39:30] Amit: find a lot. I did digging, uh, maybe inaccurately.

[00:39:33] Michael: Well, I, what I saw was You know, the, I don't want to say usual, but like unsurprising arguments with the record companies about rights and royalties and so forth.

[00:39:44] I saw him in some interviews talk about, uh, when he was a younger man, he'd be like, I was just having fun, I just signed whatever deal was in front of me and I, and I didn't do well. And I saw him really making a push, especially after he gets diagnosed with pancreatic cancer, to try and bring in as much money for his family as possible.

[00:40:03] Kind of like, by any means. You know, possible. So okay, 1. 5 million is a lot of money and that he had something to show for it at the end of his life and something to give to his Children. This is a meaningful amount. It may not be on par with what we think he, you know, was ultimately deserving of. But I don't know.

[00:40:25] Let's not Act like one and a half million isn't a lot

[00:40:29] Amit: of money. Yep. I would have been prepared to see a third of it. So, I'm kind of okay with it knowing the absolute roller coaster that he went through and that the group really, with the exception of the licensing and office space and so forth, hasn't been that relevant in at least 20 years.

[00:40:47] Michael: Yeah, I agree. Okay, category six. Simpsons Saturday Night Live or Halls of Fames. Category is a measure of how famous a person is. We include both guest appearances on SNL or The Simpsons as well as impersonations. This may or may not surprise you, we went 0 for 4 here. You know, Bushwick Bill is in a category of lesser known fame.

[00:41:08] There are people Of our generation who remember him vividly. I also think that there's a lot of people who it's been many decades since they thought about him.

[00:41:17] Amit: Yeah, I think that's right. And I think, you know, people listening to the show, probably over half are hearing about the full story of Bushwick Bill or hearing about who Bushwick Bill is for the very first time.

[00:41:29] I guess what is important is legacy here. You know, you pointed out at the beginning, mental health via lyrics and via expression. Could the way Eminem does it, which is every time he does it, it goes multi platinum, could that have happened without Bushwick Bill's expression? Who knows. So he may have been a person that paved that way to more gently integrate mental illness into hip hop.

[00:41:52] And

[00:41:52] Michael: we did make reference to office space earlier, and that is, I think, actually the other sort of major I don't know, cultural memory of the Ghetto Boys. It's not just that, damn, it feels good to be a gangster. There's a other song that they play while the, uh, the three of them are destroying the printer.

[00:42:20] I re watched it on YouTube and it still makes me smile. All right, let's move on. Category 7, Over Under. In this category, we look at the generalized life expectancy for the year somebody was born to see if they beat the house odds and to look for signs of graceful aging. So, the life expectancy for a Jamaican man born in 1966 is 64 years.

[00:42:41] He was 52. Twelve years under. He died young. Uh, it was pancreatic cancer, and there are some signs of graceful aging, I think, and Charles even makes reference to these in his book. I also do think that all the interviews I saw of him post cancer diagnosis, there's a impressive vulnerability about the man.

[00:43:05] But I don't know, man, 52, this is rough, this is a rough one.

[00:43:10] Amit: Pancreatic cancer, I think, is the biggest assassin on Famous and Gravy. I don't know how many times we've had it here. So it's a rough one, but The Grace is where we really need to talk about because he was born again in like around 2008, 2009. He said something very interesting to go back to Yermalkovich that, you know, his original destiny was to go be a missionary and teach the Bible.

[00:43:34] But what God. Gave him was to be a hip hop star and to go through all the violence and all the near death experiences and all the trappings of fame so that he could teach other people the way, which is an interesting take on it. And like I said, he's a sharp man. Obviously his actions. I don't think he was never completely drug free.

[00:43:57] He did take up mentorship a lot in his later years. Like we talked about, he amended the relationship with his son. There certainly was signs of grace. His last album that he did was, could more or less be called Rap Gospel. I don't know if it's grace, but there's an attempt at redemption.

[00:44:13] Michael: There is. I don't know.

[00:44:15] There's some, I don't know how to put this delicately, but there's some reliable narrator questions I have with Bushwick Bill because he has a born again moment in 2006 and then four years later gets busted with coke and like claims sobriety then doesn't. I mean, I feel like there's There's just struggle in the last couple decades of his life.

[00:44:35] I had some real admiration and I really like especially how he was honest and vulnerable around his likely death. I don't know, I had a hard time extracting any kind of wisdom or lesson from this category for me. But I do think, I don't know, there's also, I say that, there are other examples we've had on Famous and Gravy of famous people who did not disclose their diagnosis of, uh, of a terminal disease or a likely terminal disease.

[00:45:05] And I'm still not sure that there's any right or wrong way to do that, but I was sort of like glad that he was talking about it publicly because it was very true to his art that way. And I guess if you look at it in that light, it's absolutely graceful. Yeah, good point. Okay. Let's take a break. All right.

[00:45:24] Category eight. This is where we get to the more introspective questions. We take our best guess at what we think it would have been like to have been this person. First of these categories is man in the mirror. What did they think about their own reflection? Whew. This is a tough one. It's a really tough one.

[00:45:40] I'm still sitting with what Charles had to say. The thing I think I'm going to remember is I don't know how he felt about himself, but I know how he makes me feel about myself. Yeah. And I think that that's the important thing. I gotta say, it really was that interview I saw with Willie D, where he's talking about what Bill was like when he drank.

[00:46:03] That really changed my view in a big way. It was like, oh, this is a man who is really deep into addiction and who can't achieve lasting sobriety. And that, for me, the hallmark of that is self judgment. You know, the lack of acceptance. While I wanted to make the case that he Bishop Bill finds a lot of self acceptance and Lord knows he's battling for it.

[00:46:27] And I admire that battle. We're all battling for it. I don't see it. How much of a problem did Bill have with drugs and alcohol? It was a problem, you know, and I wasn't around him every single day or even every month. But whenever I was around him over that time, no matter how long the gaps were, it was a problem.

[00:46:47] It was always a problem. Shoot, man, mess around and get a little sip of something. Uh, Whatever he would do, go in that room, come out, bam. Something totally different, bro. Like something, somebody totally different. It's like, that was the thing you never knew. What Bill you was going to get? I don't think he liked his reflection in the mirror.

[00:47:09] I don't know that that's just because of his physicality or his disability. I think it also became really complicated because of the experience of fame. Had he never become famous, I think I might have given a yes on this because I feel like he's constitutionally proud and, uh, and and self-accepting.

[00:47:30] But I also think that the way he talked about the experience of fame made it all the more confusing to address the questions around self acceptance. So I'm going no.

[00:47:39] Amit: Yeah, I see your points on confusion and the trappings of fame of all that being part of, you know, sort of, uh, speckled demise of Bushwick Bill.

[00:47:49] I will offer the contrary of how he said being different made him good. And I think, you know, he knew that that was also key to his success, you know, originally as a short breakdancer, but then also being this very unique figure within the Ghetto Boys. And I think he liked that all eyes were on him. I think it screwed him up in a lot of ways.

[00:48:13] And exactly as you said, but I think he actually liked it. And this is a guy that thanked God for everything. This is the way God made him, as he said many times, as he said that that's how he explains it to his daughter. What he may not be thankful for God is how his mind works as he's afforded all these experiences or as he enters himself into all of these troubling

[00:48:35] Michael: experiences to clarify my no on man in the mirror.

[00:48:38] I don't think it's self judgment built around his disability. I do think it's exactly as you said, around his mental health. I also think that in all likelihood, This is not a simple question, because I do think that if part of what we're interested in in Famous and Gravy is these are the cards you're dealt, how did you play them?

[00:48:59] I think he's very proud of how he played the cards he was dealt. No question about it. And, and so, you know, with that, I think comes a tremendous amount of self acceptance. I just still see a tortured mind, ultimately. And that is most evident to me in his struggles with drugs and alcohol.

[00:49:17] Amit: Yeah. The obvious route that, that I think people would expect us to take is to talk about the physicality and how much you accepted that.

[00:49:24] But I think we're unanimous here that that was an asset and that was something that he was

[00:49:27] Michael: proud of. Yeah, so what is your answer,

[00:49:29] Amit: by the way? I mean, given the argument, I, I, I so want to say yes, because he's singing songs like Psy's ain't shit. But I, I can't argue with the consistent struggles with addiction.

[00:49:41] I can't. I've got to go with no, uh, I didn't want to. But I've got to go with no. All right

[00:49:47] Michael: category are we do we need to lighten the mood? Let's lighten the mood. Let's go to maybe just play some reggae here

[00:49:57] All

[00:50:03] right next category outgoing message like man in the mirror How do we think they felt about the sound of their own voice when they heard it on an answering machine or outgoing voicemail? Also, would they have had the humility to record it themselves or would they use the default setting? So I think he loved his voice.

[00:50:18] I loved his voice. Yeah. I loved his voice. I love a Jamaican accent, too. And his Jamaican accent is not super thick, but it's there. You kind of hear it. You know. I also tend to think, despite the struggles with the burden of fame, I kind of see some semblance of humility in here. Like, what his art represents in its best moments is a Universal human condition.

[00:50:44] And he's like, yes, you can point out all these differences. My race, my height, the fact that I have one eye now. And yet, I feel like ultimately he is speaking to something pretty universal, and that comes with humility. And I think he would have left his voice on a voicemail.

[00:50:59] Amit: Yeah, I fully agree. Rap music, specifically of that era, was so first person.

[00:51:04] So it is very much about you, which is the opposite of humility, but it still leads us to the same answer of recording your own voice. But yeah, I think he did have the humility. Like he loved to play it up and shuck it up in interviews as distorted as he might've been about past stories. He liked to divulge it all.

[00:51:22] And he liked to open up Bushwick Bill to anybody that would talk to him. He loves saying I'm Bushwick Bill. And if that's what's put on the voicemail, I think it's done out of yes, self. Confidence, self assurance, but I think there is also a humility in that everybody should have access to Bushwick Bill.

[00:51:41] Yes,

[00:51:42] Michael: I think well said. Okay, Category 10, Control Z. This is where we look for the big do overs, the things in life you might have done differently. I'm just gonna say, not getting into a brawl with his girlfriend where he loses his eyeball. And I'm gonna

[00:51:58] Amit: leave it at that. Yeah, I don't even know how anything can follow that.

[00:52:04] Yeah. Yeah. It was

[00:52:06] Michael: like this here. I started out the day drinking Everclear.

[00:52:10] Amit: Lots and lots

[00:52:11] Michael: of it. Which is strong stuff. Yeah, it is, it is corn liquor. And then I moved up to E& J. Then when I went to the club, I had Crown Royal, Long Island Tea, and I had gin. Then, afterwards, I smoked me some weed, you know what I'm saying?

[00:52:26] And, when I came home, my girl was asleep, so I woke her up and told her to kill me because I wanted to die. I was tired of my life. She said she didn't want to shoot me, so I shot at her and my three month old baby first. Then I tried to beat her head in with a vacuum cleaner, but I missed. Then I gave her the gun and jumped at her, and when I see her hand reach the trigger, I put my eye

[00:52:44] Amit: in front of it.

[00:52:45] Michael: He publicly regretted. That image on that album cover that image that photograph is compelling and I remember being whatever it was 10 11 12 looking at that and thinking there are things in this world going on that I don't know anything about He did

[00:53:01] Amit: hate that photo like, you know He was I came

[00:53:04] Michael: to hate it because he was all drugged up when they shot Yeah, and he also

[00:53:07] Amit: said this was a very personal struggle and doesn't doesn't belong and I regret that I did it So there's there's two controls.

[00:53:13] He's there. There's the actual act And then even following it up with the photo the next day. It's the most talked about thing in his life. And, uh, I think he certainly regretted all of it. Yeah.

[00:53:27] Michael: Okay. Second to last category, cocktail, coffee, or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity?

[00:53:34] So maybe a question of what kind of drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of what we are most curious about. Would you lead us off here? What do you have? I'm very curious.

[00:53:48] Amit: I want coffee. There's obvious troubles in, you know, wanting drinks or drugs with somebody that, that struggled with addiction, but that's not the reason.

[00:53:57] I don't think I'm looking for deeper access to Bushwick Bill, but I'm going back to my number five, which that he is a scholar and he is actually an inherently smart person. What I'm seeking for is his view on proud to be different. As he disclosed that, you know, what I thought about is just when I was coming of age during the ghetto boys, I was different in my own racially in, you know, a largely white context of junior high or whatever, but there was no pride in me in that.

[00:54:29] You know, I wish I, I wish there were, but there wasn't, um, it took me, it took me a while in, in order to be very proud to be different, but I think there is a good message that he has. And, and although I've, I've certainly come around full force by the age of 45, I think Bushwick Bill does have a.

[00:54:49] Particular viewpoint on it that if he's no longer able to extol it himself, perhaps I can help carry his message, but I think he is so uniquely qualified to have a viewpoint on that one that I think has power and wisdom that possibly can't be found anywhere

[00:55:10] Michael: else. Can I just say I had the exact same answer?

[00:55:14] I, you know, I actually, I did. I went coffee for the same reason. You said, look, the truth is I'll never know what it's like to be anybody else but me. I am forever going to be in this body as much as I understand the world of existence. Maybe there's some sort of rebirth. Who the fuck knows? But basically, I'm only ever going to know me, yet I want to know and I want to imagine it and I think that you can only do that, you know, through proximity and real connection.

[00:55:41] And so I would want to have a very lucid conversation with him. I don't even know how I would get at it. I just want to do it, you know, I want to talk to the guy and let him steer things. And I think I'd like to do it with coffee and it doesn't even need to be strong coffee. Fuck, it could be chamomile tea for all I care.

[00:55:57] But for the same reasons you said, Amit, there's something important. Here there's something that matters. There's something I want to learn and I'd like to learn it from him

[00:56:07] Amit: Yeah, I mean like charles said at the top. There's no autobiography, but I kind of wish there was one now

[00:56:11] Michael: Yeah, okay final category the vanderbeek named after james vanderbeek who famously said in varsity blues I don't want your life

[00:56:24] Amit: It's, it's not obvious to me.

[00:56:25] Um, Is it

[00:56:27] Michael: not? Maybe I'll leave. Cause it seems pretty obvious to me, man. This seems, this guy seems tortured. Yeah. He seems really, really troubled. I admire the artistry. I admire the fact that he, you know, had the run he did. And I think he's a fascinating figure in American pop culture history. I'm really glad we did this episode, but there just seems to be.

[00:56:54] A lot of internal struggle that that scares me and and I'd like to hear the case for but maybe that's where you're going. What is the case for?

[00:57:02] Amit: I think the case for is what Charles said is that, you know, he he made him appreciate the man in the mirror that he sees. The man was not just a pioneer, as you said, in perhaps mental health and hip hop.

[00:57:13] He was a Pioneer for making anyone disadvantaged look cool and tough and expressive and assertive. And, you know, we need those people in history. He did it in, in problematic ways, obviously, through what you're indicating, the substance abuse and the torture that both led to that and followed that. But this man was a change maker.

[00:57:38] He really was and you need those examples like I didn't have the examples growing up of as an Asian minority of somebody that was tough and cool in American pop culture and you know, Charles did have some of that. He said he came around a little bit later, but it's a big deal. It is a big deal and to play that role is no small feat.

[00:57:59] It's forgotten. It's forgotten. It's like we talked about with George Michael, you know, it's like, what was the purpose of this guy's life, you know, and then it was so tortured and so difficult despite all these successes. And the argument I made is that maybe he will never, ever, ever get credit for it.

[00:58:14] But the fact that sexuality is no issue at all in popular music anymore. It can be in part to him, and I hope one day it's

[00:58:22] Michael: not no issue, but it's much

[00:58:24] Amit: less. Yeah, I agree. I, yes, I hope the same happens for anybody that's perceived or self perceived as disadvantaged. And if Bushwick bill does this for a category of people, I think that's the argument for.

[00:58:36] However, I will say. You know, one thing I left out of the control Z was, you know, the misogyny and the homophobia in the lyrics. You know, the violence, I think I kind of take their own perspective that like, I don't think this violence instigates the type of violence that politicians would like to believe.

[00:58:54] But I do think the misogyny messages and the homophobia messages, I view that much differently than I did 30 years ago when I was listening to this music a lot.

[00:59:04] Michael: Okay, all of that is sort of in the category of legacy though. In terms of the Van Der Beek, are you a no? In terms of lived experience? Yeah, well, or do you want this life?

[00:59:15] The question is, do you want this life? Um.

[00:59:18] Amit: You know, the ride is fascinating, like, you know, I would definitely buy the virtual reality version of Bushwick Bill's life to see it, you know, I do have a problem with my life being defined by very specifically that music, which is so hypocritical as a big fan, but above all else.

[00:59:39] All I think the word you used was tortured and the man said it in songs. We obviously saw evidence of it. I hope, I hope, I hope those last 10 years when he said he found himself and was living out, you know, God's plan or whatever he said that he said, I am truly happy. I am truly at peace. I hope that is true, but that is still just 10 years of 50 and I got to go now.

[01:00:06] I don't want your life pushed with bill.

[01:00:08] Michael: Yeah, yeah, me neither. I'm, I'm a no, but that's not the point. The point is always to look for things we can learn. And I think this question about legacy and impact is weighing heavy for me today, in a good way, in a good way. I think the point is to try and learn to just give back where I can and to do it as completely as I can.

[01:00:28] And you can only get so far at that. And I think I'm in a really weird way reminded of that. And. This story, that to me is the lesson here. Amit, you're Bushwick Bill. You have died and you have gone to, let's just call it the clouds, where you meet Saint Peter, who's the universal proxy for the afterlife.

[01:00:55] You have an opportunity to make your pitch. What is your grand contribution to the stream of life?

[01:01:01] Amit: So St. Peter, I'm Richard Shaw. You know me as Bushwick Bill, but I'm going back to Richard Shaw because I am going back to the heaven and the God that I really believe in. You saw that first line of my obituary where they neither mentioned the group that I was a part of, nor the disability that I was born with.

[01:01:19] And that is what I left this world. I lived my life on my terms, without regards to the expectations, the insults, the categorizations, the callings of cuteness, of the you can't do this, and the look at them. I let none of those things affect me. My terms, my life. I did it problematically, sometimes, so the fuck what, St.

[01:01:46] Peter. I'm sorry, I didn't, I didn't mean so the fuck what. I just, I know God is back there. But I want, I let everyone know on a very, very public stage that no matter how you are born, no matter how you are labeled, no matter where you are born and where you are abled, you can and you must live life on your own terms.

[01:02:10] Let me

[01:02:10] Michael: in.

[01:02:14] Thank you so much again to Professor Charles Hughes for joining us at the top of the episode. If you are interested in his book, why Bushwick Bill Matters, I highly recommend it. Famous and Gravy listeners, we would love for you to participate in our opening quiz where we reveal the dead celebrity. If you are interested, please email us.

[01:02:33] at hello at famous and gravy. com. If you're enjoying our show, tell your friends, you can find us on Twitter X. We're also now on threads. Our handle is at famous and gravy. We have a newsletter. You can also sign up for on our website, famous and gravy. com. Famous and gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne.

[01:02:52] This episode was produced by Jacob Weiss. Original theme music by Kevin Strang. Thank you so much for listening. See you next time.