063 America’s Mustache transcript (Burt Reynolds)

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[00:00:00] Amit: This is Famous Gravy, life lessons from dead celebrities. Now for the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

[00:00:08] Michael: This person died 2018, age 82. His passion was for football, and he played halfback at Florida State.

[00:00:17] Friend: Ed McMahon.

[00:00:18] Michael: Not Ed McMahon. Fair guess. He was part Cherokee, and was cast often as a smoldering Native American.

[00:00:27] Friend: Uh... This isn't um, I think he's still alive. Wes Studi.

[00:00:32] Michael: I don't know who that is.

[00:00:33] Friend: He's a Native American actor.

[00:00:35] Michael: He was cast in Tarantino's Once Upon a Time in Hollywood.

[00:00:39] Friend: Okay, I know that Brad Pitt is in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood, but he's still alive. He is in Once Upon a Time in Hollywood. But also still with us. But is also still alive. Yeah, I have no idea.

[00:00:50] Michael: Okay. He had a volatile temperament, but he himself projected an air of insouciance and professed not to take his career too seriously.

[00:01:00] Friend: Rutger Hauer?

[00:01:01] Michael: Not Rutger Hauer, but I like that guess. Is he dead? He had an often turbulent career that spanned some 100 films and countless television appearances. He had close brushes with death, some resulting from his insistence on doing many of his own dangerous stunts.

[00:01:19] Friend: Evil Knievel's coming to mind and that's it.

[00:01:21] Michael: Not Evil Knievel. He's too dead, unfortunately. He's very, very dead. He was a self mocking charmer with laugh crinkled, dark eyes, a rackish mustache, and a hairy chest. He did not always win the respect of critics.

[00:01:36] Friend: Is Burt Reynolds dead?

[00:01:39] Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Burt Reynolds.

[00:01:46] Archival: Burt, do you really have approval of everybody who works in your films? Yes, and you'll never be in one of my films, Will. Wonderful, this set. Wonderful. How would you have evaluated your own work in some of the films that you did prior to The Longest Shot? Much better than you, my friend. Much, much better than you. I mean, how would you have reviewed White Lightning? Well, I don't... Review my work. That's what people like you do who have nothing else to do.

[00:02:21] Michael: Welcome to Famous Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

[00:02:24] Amit: My name is Amit Kapoor. Michael and I are looking for ways to make life better.

[00:02:28] Michael: And we believe that the best years might lie ahead. So on this show, we choose a celebrity who died in the last 10 years and we go through a series of categories reviewing their lives to extract wisdom and inspiration.

[00:02:41] The end we answer the question, would I want that life? Today, Burt Reynolds. Died 2018, age 82. Category 1. Grading the first line of their obituary. Burt Reynolds, the wryly appealing Hollywood heartthrob. who carried on a long love affair with moviegoers, even though his performances were often more memorable than the films that contained them, died on Thursday in Jupiter, Florida.

[00:03:12] He was 82. A lot of innuendo. A lot of innuendo. A lot of innuendo. Rhy ly appealing. Yes. What does that mean, rhy ly appealing? Uh, I

[00:03:23] Amit: think it's like

[00:03:24] Michael: What is rhy? I mean, rhy I hear rhy and I kind of hear

[00:03:27] Amit: like a But we're talking like W R Y. Yes. Rhy. Yes, yes. Yeah, I think it's like a, um, almost a sh Partially shameful appealing.

[00:03:36] Yeah. Like I'm a little embarrassed that I

[00:03:38] Michael: like this guy. Uh, uh, the dictionary says a way that expresses dry. Interesting that rye and dry are sort of synonymous. Rye, especially mocking humor. So I kind of like that. Because there is absolutely a like, ever present sense of humor. with Burt Reynolds.

[00:03:53] There's like always a wink. Yes, a hundred percent. And that it's, wry is a very good word. Yeah. So, uh, you know, wryly appealing, uh, heartthrob. I, I think that's a hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. And we'll, I'm sure we'll get into that. Uh, a hundred

[00:04:06] Amit: percent, but maybe not appreciated by, um, younger audiences, young, even contemporaries of our own.

[00:04:12] Yeah. I think he's just a little, little before our time in terms of

[00:04:15] Michael: peak. Yeah. But like older siblings knew him well. Right, like my brother and sister. My brother's five years older, my sister's ten years older. Like, the spirit of Burt Reynolds was present in our household growing up. The spirit of the ghost of Burt Reynolds passed.

[00:04:28] Yes. Okay. Alright, uh, let's get to the second half of the sentence. This is what should be talked about. Long love affair with moviegoers. Kinda like it. Kinda like it. Even though his performances were often more memorable than the films that contained them. What exactly does that mean?

[00:04:44] Amit: So prior to any of the work you did leading up to the show, like, name, name your Burt Reynolds

[00:04:48] Michael: movies.

[00:04:48] I mean, mine is Boogie Nights. Like, I

[00:04:51] Amit: love Boogie Nights. Yeah, 1990s, late 90s. Sure. But like, those aren't... Cannonball

[00:04:54] Michael: Run is the other one I'd go with.

[00:04:56] Amit: Yeah. Right. Cannonball Run, Smokey and the Bandit. But these are like, those are passing names. Yeah, but... You don't know those. I think you take your average person of anywhere between the age of, of 35 and 50 and it's like, name me your Burt Reynolds movies.

[00:05:09] Yeah. I know the name. I know who Burt Reynolds is, but like, I don't exactly know why.

[00:05:13] Michael: Yeah. Famous for being famous. If you read through his Wikipedia, there's a hyperlink to the Wikipedia page, Famous for Being Famous. Call out to Zsa Zsa Gabor, episode 22. And there's actually, it's a really fun Wikipedia article to read.

[00:05:27] That was sort of to shut out. Like, that is part of his story. I think we'll get into that as well. But, so, is that how you interpret this? Even though his performances were more memorable than the films that contained him? So, like, we remember him more than we remember his movies? Correct. It's certainly a dig, you know, even though it's like, we're just going to caveat some things here.

[00:05:47] He's a heartthrob, wryly appealing. Yet, you know.

[00:05:51] Amit: Yes. I do wonder if the even though is a nod to all of the things that he could have been. Which we're definitely going to get to throughout this episode. But like, what the alternate Burt Reynolds life is, is remarkable. Yes. As you and I

[00:06:05] Michael: both came to learn.

[00:06:06] Yeah, 100%. So, you know, it kind of, like, that idea had to be introduced in the first line of his obit. Even though there were roads not taken for Burt Reynolds. So, yeah, it, actually, the more I look at it, the more sort of elegant it is. And the more, like, sort of masterful and artful this first line is. It didn't quite do justice.

[00:06:27] Wryly appealing Hollywood heartthrob. I guess, like, those are the words that are meant to be capturing why you know him. That somehow... Feels like it falls a little bit

[00:06:37] Amit: short. Yeah, I think the difficulty is he died in 2018, right? Like, he was, he was cinematically irrelevant after the early 80s. Yeah, he

[00:06:47] Michael: describes his own career as looking like an EKG from a heart attack, right?

[00:06:51] Yes. Like, it's got, you know, major peaks and valleys. And it's... unique that way, like the way he hits the high highs and low lows is really like a case study in that. And it's,

[00:07:03] Amit: it's just a very strange corner for a guy that lives to 82 to have peaked and troughed about 40 years prior to his death and not really coming far out of that trough, but still being a bit ubiquitous, still being on the talk show circuit, somehow still knowing who he is.

[00:07:22] It's being all over SNL. Yeah. Like, as we'll get to. It's just, it's, it's a strange, strange corner of, of fame that we can't relate to because his contemporaries of people like Harrison Ford or Kevin Costner, they all very much still in our lives up until Jack Nicholson these days. Yeah. But Burt Reynolds, not so much.

[00:07:42] I think, okay. And so, but yeah, the thing we talk about often is the omission or over inclusion of proper nouns. Yeah. Like star of this and that. But I think they said that, that like his movies are less memorable than his performances. The exception would be Deliverance, but that was so long ago. Yeah. That I think they did the right thing by not listing the

[00:08:01] Michael: movies.

[00:08:02] It's funny, in a way, you draw more attention to his fame by not listing off the properties. Yeah. You know, you make him seem not like a one hit wonder. So, alright, I think I have my score. Okay. I'm gonna go nine. You're going nine. Like, the more I look at this one, the more I like it. I think the words are right.

[00:08:18] I think they really had to think this one through. I think the suggestions of what happened here catch your attention, so I'm sort of appreciate the hookiness of it. And I think it's also, like, pretty... graceful. I think that this is a man who invited, you know, a lot of ridicule, and they didn't really go there that much.

[00:08:39] They only kind of started to go there in a way that I felt like was, I appreciate the, um, respect, whether begrudging or real. So, uh, yeah, I'm giving it a

[00:08:49] Amit: nine out of 10. Okay. I'm going to eight. I, it's, I can't justify this too well because I'm not, I'm not angry at any omissions. Like I said, proper nouns, I'm okay without those.

[00:08:59] There's just, there's some lack of it, but I think maybe that's Burt Reynolds fault, not the obituary writer's fault, but I can't exactly separate them at this moment. And there's this inability to just wrap it in a package because it's so confusing.

[00:09:12] Michael: Yeah, I, I agree with that. I look, I'm an 8. so it rounds up.

[00:09:17] To nine, but I was right there with you. There is something a little bit falling short here and I can't quite put my finger on it. Yeah.

[00:09:23] Amit: And I, and maybe I'm an 8.4, so maybe we're, in actuality we're like 0.2

[00:09:27] Michael: apart. Yeah, I think that's right. But, uh, you know, that's the difference between a and AB, you know, this is true.

[00:09:31] This is how it works

[00:09:32] Amit: out. We, we are, we're integer focused

[00:09:34] Michael: indeed, . We should, we should experiment with that for a tagline for our show. . Uh. Category two, five things I love about you. Here, Amit and I come up with five reasons why we love this person, why we want to be talking about them in the first place.

[00:09:47] Oh my god, do I have a lot here. I thought a lot about this first one, and I'm calling it Failing Stud. And here's what I mean by that, um,

[00:09:58] Amit: Not too far off from Bill Paxton as a goofball stud.

[00:10:01] Michael: Yes, but this is different. So this is more a statement about what I think, like, what I interpret from his story.

[00:10:07] This is not an inner life thing quite so much, but it gets there. For those of us guys and gals out there who do not have 11 out of 10 sex appeal, or athletic talent, the man played football, I think we'll get into that, or insane countless opportunities after failures, it's really nice to see somebody screw up so much.

[00:10:27] I like seeing him... And I'm glad he stumbled a lot. Like it's very, you know, I think maybe a lot of us have that friend who's like very, very attractive and just can't put it together somehow. Or they'll put it together but then they'll, you know, fall flat on their face. I like that he did not manage, you know, they use the term manage his career or manage his image.

[00:10:48] I like that he didn't do it and that he was, Impulsive, and that he, you know, found himself in this situation where he had to be self deprecating, where he had to make jokes at his own expense. Yes. Um, his knack for very, very poor decisions, like, betrays his infallibility. I take the best of what's offered to me, and usually, uh, that's not a great deal.

[00:11:11] But, uh, at that time, uh, White Lightning was the best of the group, and it was what you call your basic... Action adventure comedy kind of thing. Lots of car chases and... And regardless of what you thought of it, John, Uh, it made about 18 million dollars. I was thinking about, like, Leo or Brad Pitt or Denzel. I mean, you could come up with like a thousand...

[00:11:37] You know, movie stars who have, like, been very, very careful about how they manage their image. And, and what that communicates to us is, like, that perfection is possible. Yeah. And, and it's not. I really like that Burt Reynolds reminds us of how imperfect you are, despite your... Genetics despite your

[00:11:56] Amit: natural attributes.

[00:11:57] Yeah, I would put McConaughey in that group because I think those are really the contemporary comparisons to what Burt Reynolds was in the

[00:12:03] Michael: 70s. I agree with that. But they're going to persist the same way Clint Eastwood and Jack Nicholson have in a way because they've quote unquote managed their career and they give this like false impression of what's possible in Hollywood.

[00:12:14] Yeah, but

[00:12:15] Amit: they also have, you know, they, they have their, um, their, their quirks and even sometimes their demons, uh, but managed very well.

[00:12:23] Michael: Even their demons look. pretty shiny to me though. You know what I mean? Like it still sort of has this like untouchability to it. Yeah. That I think that like the meta message of that separates us from them and like perpetuates, you know, all the things that are sort of, I don't know, screwed up and wrong about celebrity and celebrity culture.

[00:12:44] So I'm grateful. To Burt Reynolds for falling flat on his face over and over again and for not being able to, like, get out of his own way. I think he's a good example.

[00:12:54] Amit: You know, I had on my five things, I had fallibility as one of them. Did you really? Yeah. Oh, wow. We overlapped here.

[00:13:00] Michael: All right. Uh, yeah, I guess, I guess when you think about it, that's a, that's a good one.

[00:13:03] But, all right, awesome. So, I'm, that's my number one. Okay.

[00:13:07] Amit: Uh, number two, I'm gonna take a left turn here, Michael. All right. Uh, win, lose, or draw. Did you know about this? No. So it's a match in Pictionary played by celebrities and a guest. Okay. Every now and then. Burt Reynolds created Win, Lose, or Draw. Um. No.

[00:13:21] And I loved this TV show. I loved this game show and it was created by this production company called Burt and Burt Productions. He had another partner named Burt, uh, what is the guy's name, Burt Conway, I believe. Yeah. And they created this show, um, which was modeled after Burt Reynolds living room. And it's essentially, you play Pictionary.

[00:13:41] Michael: Thank you very, very much, and welcome to Win, Lose, or Draw. Uh, this is really a game that a lot of us have been playing for years. In fact, in fact, this is the room we've been playing it in, because you see, our set is modeled after Burt's living room. Right, Burt? Yes. Yes. It looks just like this, except I had more people.

[00:13:56] Yeah, usually have, usually have a bigger crowd, huh? Only if these walls could talk, huh? This couch could talk. Yeah, better, yeah.

[00:14:05] Amit: Why I love about it is, it is, uh, well, one, it's very fun, and people who know me know that, like, I'm an anti game night person. Really? Yeah, I kinda am. I thought I knew you. But, but these types of games, the, the Pictionaries or the Wind Loser Draws, I'm, I'm into.

[00:14:19] I can, I can be talked into that. Got it. Taboo would be another one. Yeah. Uh, all the same thing. It's like rapid guessing type of game stuff. I can do. So, I love it because he created it. So, I love the creation and the legacy of that, but I love that it's so not Burt Reynolds. You know, this is like, this is family living room fun.

[00:14:37] This is not bearskin rug, you know, cowboy hat driving cross country Burt Reynolds. And I love that contrast. Yeah. So, I love that he created. Something beautiful and lasting in at least my mind, and that it's so contrasting from the image we know.

[00:14:50] Michael: Is there a desirability message in that? Oh absolutely.

[00:14:53] Which is what? Creating

[00:14:55] Amit: something that lasts or lives in somebody's mind, we're counting my own as everybody's. Yeah. And secondly, never be able to be pinned down. Yeah.

[00:15:04] Michael: That's what I like. Good stuff. I love it. Alright. If I may, I'll take number three. This one is just low hanging fruit, but I feel like we need to spend some time talking about this.

[00:15:11] Okay. Fun! Oh my god, this man looks like he's just having fun. The laugh is a next level laugh. Two, four, nine, okay, twelve, sixteen,

[00:15:24] Amit: stop that silly laugh, you're a grown man. How can he be a sex symbol with that kind

[00:15:30] Michael: of a cackle? You can't come

[00:15:31] Amit: on here in a leather suit and then go, hey, hey, hey,

[00:15:33] Michael: hey, hey, hey.

[00:15:35] Come on. She should be going, ah, hey, that's funny! That's better! You don't do

[00:15:41] Amit: that. you giggle. No, it's

[00:15:43] Michael: my fault. But that's the way you

[00:15:44] Amit: laugh. That is the way

[00:15:45] Michael: I laugh. Very memorable and very unique. And I think we could spend time talking about, like, what it means to have a distinct laugh. His sense of humor is very good.

[00:15:53] The broad smile is good. I think there's a... Dark and dangerous charm about him. The word didn't come up in the first line of the obit, but I saw the word rakish over and over. R A K I S H. I don't know what that means. I had to look it up as well. Having or displaying a dashing, jaunty, or slightly disreputable quality or appearance.

[00:16:14] A few too many hyperlinks in the definition of rackish, but it's a really good word, and it could have very easily been folded into the first line of the op ed. There is something very charming, but also, like, a little bit mysterious, but more funny than risky. Yes. You know, that you get from him. I mean, you sense a temper, and it existed behind the scenes.

[00:16:34] You know, he could be difficult, uh, there's no question about it. But there's also, like, he seems to be working his way back towards what's funny here on and off screen a lot. Yes. You know, and, and that he's looking to have a good time and really embodies what it means to be, like, that guy is just fun. I don't know if I want to be his best friend, but, like, that guy is definitely fun.

[00:16:55] I admire that.

[00:16:56] Amit: Yeah, and he said that as much, uh, about the roles that he selected. Like, he definitely was off the Oscar trail for a long time because he was like, I selected for fun. Yeah. You know, against probably better judgment and maybe better money and, and better remembrance. Yes. It reminds me, you have the, his most recent autobiography in front of you.

[00:17:13] I do. So I just want you to do me a favor, very last line of the last chapter. So we're talking the last

[00:17:18] Michael: line of the whole book. Oh yeah. It just says, and there's one thing they can never take away, nobody had more fun than I did. Thank you. Bingo. I love this joke he used to make. Uh, he said he called himself America's most well known unknown, who only made the kind of movies that they quote, show in airplanes or prisons or anywhere else that people can't get out.

[00:17:38] Yes. That was a

[00:17:38] Amit: very famous quote, often repeated. That's another thing about this guy is he like says the same thing over and over again for like 30 or 40 years, but still manages to have fun with it. Yeah.

[00:17:48] Michael: But I also, I mean, he's witty too. You see him respond in the moment. And he is like, Absolutely funny.

[00:17:53] Yeah. You know, he cracks me up. He's

[00:17:55] Amit: sharp. There's something about being a, a running back and being a comedic actor that you combine those two skills. Totally. And you have a very good instinct on when to kind of shift around and, and make a quick

[00:18:08] Michael: remark. Well, okay, let's cut it off there. Why don't, why don't you go, you, you go ahead and take number four.

[00:18:13] Okay,

[00:18:13] Amit: number four, he had a toupee guy. Yeah. Um, so he, uh, We need to talk about toupees. You, you look at Burt Reynolds, any picture of him, and he's got a full head of hair, but that's not natural Burt Reynolds hair. Correct. He's not completely bald, but he always liked to enhance it with a little more. And I think early on in his career, it was, It's kind of painfully obvious.

[00:18:33] Yes. Burt Reynolds was synonymous, uh, with toupee. Uh, so I was reading an interview about, I think it was in GQ, but the guy asked about deliverance. And they said, uh, did you have a toupee in deliverance? And he said, no, I, I, I didn't. That was all me. That was my real hair. But then later he went into his toupee escapades and was kind of ridiculed for it, for sometimes being like Burt Reynolds with his giant, thick hair.

[00:18:59] But then people stopped noticing. And the reason is, he found a toupee guy. And the story he said is he goes, but I ended up seeing this guy William Shatner sent me to, Edward Katz. He's a genius at what he does. Best guy in the business. So I love that Burt Reynolds has a toupee guy.

[00:19:18] Michael: I do too. I did not know this.

[00:19:20] This is great. Yes.

[00:19:21] Amit: And the lesson here is I like anybody that has a guy, right? If you've got a seamstress, I love that feeling of having a guy. And this is completely removed from fame. This is life, you know, cause I think that is just something that so cements you in a community. It cements this, this relationship that's a little more than transactional to have a guy.

[00:19:42] I,

[00:19:43] Michael: really like that because I do think it, it calls attention to like, I appreciate your very particular, very specific, very unique craft and art form. Right. I'm thinking of friends. I have who have like a favorite taxidermist for example. Right. I mean, I know a good

[00:19:58] Amit: taxidermist in

[00:19:59] Michael: Tulsa. Exactly. Right. I know a guy.

[00:20:01] It is, it is a nice, like, I happen to be the person you want to talk to about this very, very specific thing. And it too

[00:20:07] Amit: pays a good. Yeah, but knowing that person, it's also not just the, the credit to the, the craftsman or craftswoman, craftsperson. Yeah. It is, it's the, the feeling of yourself. Yeah. You know, it's like, I've got, I'm knowledgeable, I've got resources, I own a little part of this community.

[00:20:23] Yeah. You know, I'm an authority somewhere.

[00:20:25] Michael: Yeah. And I, I gotta say, I agree with him. His toupee guy was masterful. His toupees are very, very good.

[00:20:32] Amit: Are you, are you listening, Edward Katz, to how we conflict you?

[00:20:34] Michael: I hope so. Uh. Yeah. Okay, am I going to take number five? I think so. I hope this isn't too simple or corny.

[00:20:42] I'm just going to say physicality. He played football at Florida State. He was a halfback. Uh, and, and injuries ended up sort of, um, diverting his career.

[00:20:51] Amit: And a car wreck. And a car wreck as

[00:20:53] Michael: well. Beyond just football injuries, yeah. That's right. That's right. And that led him to, uh, I forget what it was, like, Palm Beach State College or something like that, where he ended up falling into acting and, and things were never the same since.

[00:21:04] Uh, he also learned to box from Rocky Marciano. Thank you. He was a stuntman and insisted on doing his own stunts, and that cost him. There's some very famous stories about injuries that he, he almost died during deliverance. He also, there was a movie in the 84 with Clint Eastwood that I think was kind of a critical disappointment.

[00:21:22] But where he took a chair, like, that was supposed to break over his head and it ended up, like, dislocating or breaking his jaw. And he just, like, gutted it out. So he, like, accrued a lot of injuries. But And then this is probably the most important on point on the on the point of physicality. The 1972 Cosmos Interfold.

[00:21:39] I think you have to tell the story. So, his career takes a major turn in the early 70s when he gets the opportunity to to do deliverance. That, uh, you know Gave him a lot of critical acclaim, but his star is rising rapidly, right? And he is invited by Cosmopolitan to do a full nude centerfold. You know, I think they covered his privates, but he's naked, uh, and smiling.

[00:22:01] And this is a major turning point in Burt Reynolds story, right? He regrets having done it. He thinks that it cost a lot of people on deliverance, the possibility for Oscars. He thinks it put him in a category where he gets laughed at more than taken seriously, kind of for the rest of his career. Yes. But there's also like, okay, if you just go back to the, Hey Bert, we'd like you to pose naked and just smile with your mustachioed self.

[00:22:25] You know, there's a like fucking confidence in that, right? There is an early seventies. There's sexual liberation and he's a total heartthrob stud. I mean, I don't know. I'm like hats off, man. Good for you for being willing to take all your clothes off and pose for this picture. I mean, yes, it changed the trajectory of your life and was probably in retrospect, not a great idea, but there is a, Overall relationship to like my body is part of the instrument of acting.

[00:22:51] It's not just all in my head and it's not just all method and embodying characters. It's that if I'm going to succeed in this entertainment business, I need the whole package. Was that 73?

[00:23:01] Amit: 73. God,

[00:23:02] Michael: 14 years ago. Fortunately, I've had surgery on the body and it's remained exactly the same. You stay in good shape, don't you?

[00:23:09] I work out. Every day. You know, and I think that that, you see that in, in football and boxing and doing stunts and in, uh, posing naked for

[00:23:17] Amit: Cosmopolitan. So, uh, you know, it's, it's a very delicate subject to talk about this. For women, you know, especially nowadays, how do you put a male lens on this?

[00:23:26] Michael: I think I just admire athleticism, you know, I tend to think of athletic aptitudes as another flavor of intelligence that we don't often consider, you know, what makes somebody smart, you may be good at math, you may be good at analytics, you may be great at music, I think.

[00:23:41] Athletic aptitudes is its own seam of brilliance. And I think Burt Reynolds was, like, a very, very smart athlete. I think it served him really well, and I admire that about him. I want to have not just a relationship to my body where I say, you know, I like the way I look, but I like the way I can use it, and look at what it can do for me in a lot of different situations.

[00:24:02] This is what life's all about, is that I don't want to separate mind and body. I want to have it all be part of what I'm doing with my career. I don't know, maybe I just wanted to talk about football and cosmopolitan under the same heading. So, shall we recap? Yes. Alright, number one, I said failing stud.

[00:24:18] Okay. Number two, you said... Win, lose, or draw. And number three, I said, boy, it looks like he's having fun. Number four, you said... He's got a guy. He's got a toupee guy. He's got a guy. And number five, I said physicality and athleticism. Good list. Alright. Let's take a break.

[00:24:35] Amit: Uh, Michael. Yeah. On Sundays, I like to treat myself.

[00:24:39] Michael: Hmm. Uh, how do you like to treat yourself? Pedicure. Oh,

[00:24:43] Amit: sure. Uh, a foamy

[00:24:45] Michael: latte. I feel like you're talking about the finer things in life here.

[00:24:47] Amit: Well, this is really how I, you know, soothe my soul. Is there anything that

[00:24:53] Michael: you do? Well, you've seen my bookshelf.

[00:24:57] You know, I like to collect great things. For example, did you know right now at Half Price Books there is a leather bound collector's edition of Muhammad Ali, His Life and Times, signed by Muhammad Ali? Leonard Cohen, Stranger Music, Selected Poems and Songs, Signed Copy. Something that's like, this person who created this thing, and touched this thing, and now it exists on my bookshelf.

[00:25:20] That's meaningful to me. It's kind of like a pedicure.

[00:25:22] Amit: So they curate things only from our episodes?

[00:25:25] Michael: Well, I think this is just a selection of some of the many special items they have. And they're rare collections. price books. People bring very valuable items and have price books compensates and recognize that and make some available for

[00:25:37] Amit: all of us.

[00:25:38] You know, I think I'm just gonna check out the all new HPB dot com where I can find my local store, plan my next trip, maybe even buy online to pick up in store. Possibly create a wishlist and more.

[00:25:50] Michael: I think it's gonna go great with your pedicure.

[00:25:57] Okay, category three. Malkovich, Malkovich. This category is named after the movie, Being John Malkovich, in which people take a portal into John Malkovich's mind and they can have a front row seat to his experiences. Amit, I believe you go first today. Okay,

[00:26:11] Amit: so, uh, What was the word that preceded stud in your thing number one?

[00:26:15] Failing. Failing stud. So, Burt Reynolds was very, very imperfect, and part of that imperfection was temperament. He had a loose temper, and he's not Leonardo DiCaprio or Matthew McConaughey in that sense. Right. So, in 1994, after he had written his first book, called My life. My life. This was a very tumultuous time in Burt Reynolds life, because actually this is coinciding with his very, very high profile divorce to Lonnie Anderson.

[00:26:43] Correct. So he is on The Tonight Show with Jay Leno. You know where I'm going here? Yes. Okay, so sometime during the monologue, Jay Leno makes some joke about Burt Reynolds and Lonnie Anderson. Burt Reynolds is a sensitive guy, and he is a temperamental guy. Yes. This kind of, like, sat with him and festered, and he was a little disturbed throughout the interview, but still did it, because he's Burt Reynolds on stage.

[00:27:03] Yeah. But this anger is kind of a

[00:27:05] Michael: very familiar figure on night shows. Like, he and Carson were super tight, and, like, he was just used to sitting in that chair. They loved him,

[00:27:12] Amit: because he could cut it up, right? Like you said,

[00:27:13] he's

[00:27:14] Michael: fun. And he would improv things. He would do things sort of off the cuff that were sort of unpredictable, and he had a high confidence in his ability to...

[00:27:21] come up with an idea on the

[00:27:23] Amit: fly. So the next guest on the couch is Mark Summers, host of Double Dare, which I know him best

[00:27:29] Michael: for. The Nickelodeon aficionado.

[00:27:31] Amit: Yes, I cannot think of somebody less threatening, uh, than Mark Summers. And Mark Summers goes on to pitch his new show, he's smiling, he's nice, he's talking and he's saying, uh, something about the irony of his life is that he's a bit of a neat he does these shows like Double Dare and whatever that are very sloppy and messy.

[00:27:51] And Burt Reynolds, for no reason, says, who says you're a neat freak? He goes, you've got your back to me and you're just calling yourself a neat freak. Just randomly picking a fight with Mark Summers. And it was just, it made no sense at all. And Mark Summers just retorts what he thinks is friendly and says something about, well, my wife said it.

[00:28:13] And he goes, you know, I'm still married. And so this is the Burt. the Lonnie Anderson dig, and Burt Reynolds picks up his cup of water and just pours it on

[00:28:22] Michael: Mark Summers lap. Yeah. She says, I'm

[00:28:24] Amit: still married, as a matter of fact. Mark Summers still thinks he's joking, and so he picks up his cup of water and Burt Reynolds slaps it away.

[00:28:35] I mean, like, this looks like there is going to be a throwdown on the Jay Leno show. It is real anger. This is what's known as losing control of the program, ladies and gentlemen. So the producers try to, um, Diffuse it. Diffuse it. They bring out pies and like, let's just have a pie fight. But Burt Reynolds is still, like, slanging, like, nasty

[00:28:56] Michael: looks.

[00:28:56] You see his blood get hot. Yeah.

[00:28:58] Amit: In this moment. I mean, he is seconds away from punching Mark Summers. Yeah. If he's on The Tonight Show. And this is nutso. I mean, people love this type of television. Yeah. But, like, it's kind of nice if he gets angry and, and yells. That's drama. But you don't actually want to.

[00:29:15] The sadness of two

[00:29:17] Michael: adults, then. It looks like bullying. I mean, who the fuck is Mark Summers, right?

[00:29:22] Amit: Yeah, totally. It totally totally looks like

[00:29:24] Michael: bullying. And I don't want to cut you off. At the end they do, you know, Bert Reynolds does bring him in for the hug. He does

[00:29:29] Amit: bring him in for the hug. How much of that was for the cameras?

[00:29:32] I don't know. From what we've learned about, Bert Reynolds, I think the diffusion process. Could be a little bit longer. Yeah. But he did start this fight on national TV and on the leading late night program. So. Why is this a Malkovich? Yeah. Uh, humanity? Humanity. Humanity. Okay. And I think that's it. And I think that's why, this is one thing I kind of like about Burt Reynolds, is the fallibility.

[00:29:55] I mean, you said you kind of loved it. Yeah. Um, the man emotes. Yeah. I mean, the man emotes seriously. And he, as for as much of a stud as he is, like, he is emotionally hurt by you making fun of his soon to be ex wife. Yeah. And I just kind of like when that fourth wall comes down. Yeah. And that he can't control it.

[00:30:15] Yeah. And it is a pure expression of being hurt. Part of the problem that bothers us about fame and celebrities and talk shows is we know it's just a presentation. Yeah. You know, we know it's just going to the club and putting your pretty face forward and talking about what you want

[00:30:31] Michael: to. Trying to be charming for eight minutes before a commercial break.

[00:30:33] Amit: Yeah, and when that breaks down and you actually see see a person inside, you know that something major is breaking down. And to me, that's, that's, even though it's, it's bullying in this regard, there's, there's a whole lot of empathy. Yeah. Um, and seeing that

[00:30:47] Michael: happen. All right then. My Malkovich? I'm just going to read from Burt Reynolds book, if I may.

[00:30:53] Okay. This is chapter 17. This is in 2015. Bear with me, because this is going to go somewhere. Not long ago, I dared to go to Costco. I was looking for a tiny paintbrush, and when I turned around, there were eight people staring at me. When I went to check out, people came up asking for autographs. If you sign one, you have to sign them all, and the people behind me were getting pissed off, so I got out of line and kept signing.

[00:31:15] The manager came over and said, Can I help you out here? Thanks, but I'll be fine, I said. It took an hour to buy that brush, but I enjoyed every minute of it. When people come up to me in public, they want me to be a certain way. I try not to disappoint, but I don't pretend to be something I'm not. They say nice things, and we might giggle about something in one of my movies.

[00:31:31] Some of them are surprised. I always said you were a nice guy. You mean there were people arguing? In the old days, some people were disappointed if I didn't insult them or knock somebody down or burn rubber on the way out of the parking lot, but now everyone I meet is friendly and respectful, and I try to respond in kind.

[00:31:46] I don't do it for them. I do it for me. Makes me feel good. So, if you see me in Costco, come over and say hello. All right. Noted. Couple things going on here. One, this is 2015. He dies in 2018, three years later, so he's 79 ish. I'm very curious about his relationship to being recognized in public at age 79.

[00:32:12] This is something we've talked already a lot about just how unbelievably famous he was. People have all these interpretations, associations of who he was and feel like they know him. And I do think that there is a kind of question with fame overall about Feeling validated from, you know, anonymous people, from audiences, that I wonder at this very late stage of Burt Reynolds life, where he is with that.

[00:32:36] Is he still cray? Does he still have that need inside? He actually kind of says he does. I like talking to people if they're respectful. So there is a part of him that still sort of desires attention and desires that validation. I want to understand the kind of long arc of that internal need in him and how it's present at age 79.

[00:32:56] That's one question. I have the other question I have is why in the fuck would you go to Costco for a goddamn paintbrush? Like Walgreens has this right like Costco of all places. I maybe they have a depot Lowe's

[00:33:08] Amit: It's

[00:33:09] Michael: like that's a very large store for a very small item. Um Which makes me wonder, you know, was he kind of looking for that?

[00:33:16] Right? Yeah. Did he kind of go to Costco to be recognized, right? And to sign autographs in a way of like, um, just, you know, for a paintbrush, you know? Yeah. Ha ha. So, Uh, oh, I hope so. So I mostly have curiosity about this moment. Anyway, I do like that sentiment. So if you see me, come say hello. I thought you'd also, I thought you'd like that sentiment.

[00:33:33] I

[00:33:33] Amit: do. Yeah. I do. I like, I like any stores involving celebrities and big box retailers. I don't know why. It's a thing of

[00:33:41] Michael: mine. I get that. I totally get that. All right. Category four. Love and marriage. Here we go. How many marriages? Also how many kids? And is there anything public about these relationships?

[00:33:54] I'm gonna lay out the data. And then I don't know where we're going to go, but let me just give the data. Technically only two marriages. Judy Karn in 1963, uh, Divorced 1965. Bert was 27, divorced at 29. I didn't find out a ton about her. I didn't go digging. And this is, Burt's career is sort of slowly starting to take off a little bit in the 60s, really in the 70s.

[00:34:18] The 70s is where his sex life and his dating life are fully, like, you know, part of the public, I don't know, tabloid, sort of, like, early celebrity culture, TMZ ish, before it existed. So, the two relationships that he did not tie the knot, but I think are worth drawing attention to, are Dinah Shore, Which is mostly in like, 70 to 75 ish, it looks like.

[00:34:40] What's notable there is that she was 20 years older than him. Yeah. Um, which is, I mean, kind of great. And they actually look like a really great couple. And he has nothing but glowing things to say about her in the autobiography. The other one that was not a marriage but very noteworthy is, of course, Sally Field.

[00:34:55] He talks about how they fell in love on the set of Smoky and the Bandit. And he does say in his book, not making it work with Sally is the great regret of my

[00:35:04] Amit: life.

[00:35:05] Michael: I always wonder when I think about the women in your life, who would you consider the love of your life? I would say Sally. Sally Field? Yeah.

[00:35:17] She was, well, she is still. You know, she was, I, I wanted her really bad for smoking. And they said, well, she's not sexy. And I said, you don't get it. Talent is sexy. Uh, and then, of course, Lonnie Anderson from 1988 to 1994. It is a little hard to explain to younger audiences just how tabloidy and, like, ugly this divorce and relationship was.

[00:35:44] Burt was 52, divorced at 58, so technically only two marriages here. They had an adopted son, Quentin, and a very acrimonious divorce, and Burt... Says in his book, I don't know why I did this, I never really liked her. Yes. Among other

[00:35:59] Amit: things. Yeah, he had a lot of, uh, bad things to say.

[00:36:02] Michael: You could go on and on about this one.

[00:36:04] This man never really had, I don't know, I mean, he described Sally Field as his soulmate, but he didn't make it work. Yes. Yeah, this is a troubled sex life. There's a lonely heart. The Lonnie Anderson thing is really weird to me that age 52, you marry somebody who you later say I never really liked. Like, what

[00:36:22] Amit: the hell does that tell you?

[00:36:23] And that his mother is disapproving of it at the chapel. You're

[00:36:26] Michael: right. Doesn't that tell you, like, everything you need to know? This man never figured this... part of his life out. And, you know, I'm, I'm sure he had a very exciting sex life. I mean, it's certainly like the women he's dating throughout the 80s, you know, I mean, there's some real notable names in there.

[00:36:44] Yeah. But I don't know. I mean, it looks

[00:36:46] Amit: pretty shallow. Yeah, it does. And there's just a strange contrast of him being such a hunk, such a sex symbol and just never seeming to find resolve in, in the true love part of it.

[00:36:59] Michael: Yeah. I don't know. What conclusion do you draw from this?

[00:37:02] Amit: I think he's a lonely heart, but I don't think he was an unhappy

[00:37:04] Michael: person.

[00:37:05] Yeah, I agree with that, actually. I think that's smart. And I

[00:37:08] Amit: guess that's important to point out, that that can coexist, and here's an example.

[00:37:12] Michael: Yeah, I'm glad you said that. I agree. I don't have to take this to draw grand conclusions about his life. Problematic territory for him, but not necessarily a deal breaker on, like, how sad or happy this life was.

[00:37:25] Yeah. That's a good point on it. Okay. Category five. See what I saw? I'm not sure

[00:37:33] Amit: what you saw, there's so many numbers out there. The one I saw was 3 million. 3 million, yeah, that's the consensus. But this was a rollercoaster, this was like the career.

[00:37:41] Michael: Shockingly low for the endgame, but this could have ended at 250 million or 250 thousand.

[00:37:46] Amit: Yeah, they said, I mean, he was up at one point. earning 60 million, not even just accumulating 60 million, to earning 60 million, but he pilfered it. I mean, the divorce, that's one of the most costly divorces, I think, in celebrity history. To Lonnie, I think he said very publicly and, and quite angrily that lawyers took all of his money, and that bad advisors in real estate.

[00:38:08] took all, a lot of his money, he made some really bad investments in restaurants and things

[00:38:13] Michael: like that. I mean, we have to point out again, from 1978 to 1983, like, he was the most bankable star in Hollywood. Yes. Like, he was... Top grossing. Top grossing for five years. Yeah. It's an

[00:38:25] Amit: incredible streak. And it had not been eclipsed.

[00:38:26] I think maybe Tom Cruise took that over, over, like, a couple of decades later. Yeah. But nobody had a streak

[00:38:31] Michael: like that. No, this is like, uh, Will Chamberlain scoring a hundred points in a game. Yes. I mean, it's, it, this is one of those records that I'm not sure we're going to touch. Yeah. Yeah. And yet three million.

[00:38:41] I, I will say the way he discusses it in his autobiography, he was like, look, I just don't care about money. At the end of the day, it's not about material things. And I had a lot of fun along the way. I actually am willing to accept that at face value. Yeah. I think he probably had fun on the yachts and the jet planes.

[00:38:56] There's also like a whole bunch of failed investments and restaurants and an alternative to football that he went into with Donald Trump of all people. And, uh, you know, I mean, there was a lot of, you know, Had a theater and, like, an acting school, and, uh, it, it, like, there's, like, a Burt Reynolds Institute that he opens up in Florida in 79.

[00:39:14] All of this fails. Like, all of this goes south. Yeah. Um, and, you know, at the end of the day, three million's still a lot of money. I mean, with

[00:39:20] Amit: the number of bankruptcies he declared in his life, three million's actually

[00:39:24] Michael: not bad. Yeah. But a total, I mean, you know, this is really back to the kind of erratic EKG thing.

[00:39:30] Yeah.

[00:39:31] Amit: So I think what's interesting about this is, you know, we, you and I have talked a lot. I, I have problems with net worth. Yeah. Uh, here it's just a proxy. Okay. Right. Like ideally, our ideal number, which is very hard to obtain, if not impossible to attain, was cumulative earnings over a lifetime. Right.

[00:39:46] Right. What net worth says is that you earn so much, but then you also spent so much or didn't get so many returns. Uh, and Burt Reynolds is a good example of huge lifetime earnings with very little left in the end. Yeah. Um. But I kind of like it because we haven't seen it often. We haven't seen people, like, come, and he wasn't just, like, throwing lavish yacht parties all the time.

[00:40:10] He was investing. He's like, okay, I want to try this restaurant. I want to try this arena football league. You know, he kept doing all these things. Horribly ill advised. But he tried. He tried with it, and he wanted to have fun. He wanted to make more money with it. Yeah. And he just

[00:40:23] Michael: failed. One of the things that's really confusing about his story is that he actually is talented.

[00:40:28] He is also, you know, such a dashing charmer that movies like Smoky and the Bandit and Cannonball Run can be these runaway success that the critics don't take seriously. So, I could understand his own sort of uncertainty of who am I exactly and what should I be doing. Yeah. Anyway, I think all of that in a way does speak to net worth that he never exactly figured out what he was, you know, supposed to be doing.

[00:40:50] Amit: So, I think the wrap up is, I don't think that it's Is that tragic? Like, cause he did go bankrupt, he ended up with some, but like he said over and over again, he tried, he had fun. He just made

[00:41:02] Michael: some bad moves. I really like that conclusion, Amit, because I think all other things being equal, you would look at this number and say, what a tragedy.

[00:41:09] And I think if you stop and think about it, you're 100 percent right. This is not all that tragic. Not really.

[00:41:14] Amit: No, and still to his next of kin, to Quentin, he had a very close relationship with his niece as well, who actually became his money manager. Yes. You know, he did have something to leave behind.

[00:41:22] Absolutely.

[00:41:24] Michael: Okay. Category six, Simpsons Saturday Night Live or Halls of Fame. This category is a measure of how famous a person is. We include both guest appearances on SNL or The Simpsons as well as impersonations. I'm going to go through this really quick and get to the thing I really want to talk

[00:41:37] Amit: about.

[00:41:37] So you're saving SNL

[00:41:38] Michael: for last? I think so. So he was never on Arsenio, a little bit disappointing. He does have a Hollywood star. He was parodied on several episodes of The Simpsons, but I never saw any reference to him voicing himself. Okay. This is a channel six news bulletin. Fire has broken out on Mount Springfield, trapping two youngsters and their camera.

[00:41:57] Oh no, it's Bart and Lisa! Unfortunately, fire trucks are unavailable to fight the blaze, as they're all being used to film the new Burt Reynolds movie, Fireball and Mudflap. I caught up with Bert on the set. So, Bert, tell us a little about Fireball and

[00:42:12] Amit: Mudflap.

[00:42:12] Michael: Well, I play Jerry Fireball Mudflap, a feisty Supreme Court justice who's searching for his birth mother while competing in a cross country firetruck race.

[00:42:21] It's garbage. SNL, he hosted in 1980, but of course, was famously parodied by Norm Macdonald. Yes. This is what I want to talk about. Why was that so fucking funny?

[00:42:35] Amit: Uh, because I think it was so spot on. So first, I think I, I think we have to self promote here is that Norm Macdonald, episode 46. Yes. His perhaps two greatest impressions were Bob Dole, episode 48, and now, uh, Burt Reynolds, this

[00:42:49] Michael: episode.

[00:42:49] Uh, and of course, Celebrity Jeopardy. Yes. Yeah. And finally, back again, Burt Reynolds in a commanding lead with 14. Hey, hey, uh, check out the podium, look at this. Mr. Reynolds has apparently changed his name to Turd Ferguson. Yeah, that's right. Dirk Ferguson, it's a funny name.

[00:43:11] Amit: I don't know, it was just so perfect for this mischievous, uh I mean, it's

[00:43:16] Michael: perfect for Norm.

[00:43:17] It's

[00:43:18] Amit: perfect for Norm, but what he tried to capture about Burt Reynolds Yeah. About, hey, I'm fun, I'm a boyish kind of fun. Yeah. You know, I'm Either you get it or you don't. A little crass kind of fun. Yeah. And also, like, I'm gonna own it, and it's funny, and I'm saying it's funny, and so that's what it's gonna

[00:43:35] Michael: be.

[00:43:35] I mean, this is definitely more of a Norm McDonald conversation than a Burt Reynolds conversation. I'm just trying to, like, poke at why this parody works so well. What did Norm, like, sort of distill down to that is, like, kind of hard to put your finger on, but fucking hilarious, right? That's just so good that there is, there is something aloof that, I mean, I don't know.

[00:43:55] Somehow, Norm parodying... Burt Reynolds brought out the best in Norm, you know, and like brought out his talent so perfectly. Um, overall, as we've been discussing, very, very, very famous man, and I think that, uh, I think actually we are gonna remember him for a while because I think some of these movies are kind of durable.

[00:44:14] Yeah. You know, um, okay. Category seven? Yes. Over under. In this category we look at the generalized life expectancy for the year somebody was born to see if they beat the house odds and to look for signs of graceful aging. So, life expectancy for a man born in the U. S. in 1936 was 56. 6 years. Burke was 82, so 26 years over.

[00:44:36] Kind of in the

[00:44:36] Amit: norm. Kind of in the norm. Somehow it still felt a little bit tragic. It did, yeah. Even though 82 is, especially for a guy that lived as rough as he

[00:44:43] Michael: did. Yeah. So he had, you know, kind of somewhat predictable late in life ailments. There was, at one point after that injury to the jaw in the Clint Eastwood movie, he got addicted to painkillers for a little while there and eventually had to, like, check himself in.

[00:44:57] But, you know, he also played college football. He was at Florida State as a halfback. He mentioned this car wreck. He did his own stunt. Like, this man threw his body into stuff that's gonna, like, lead to later in life pain. Broke his back several

[00:45:10] Amit: times. Totally.

[00:45:11] Michael: Emergency surgeries. I mean, you know, so I don't know how...

[00:45:15] Super duper graceful it all is, actually. You know? I don't know. Is it? You're

[00:45:19] Amit: talking about the ride being graceful or the end being graceful?

[00:45:23] Michael: That's a good question

[00:45:25] Amit: because I wanna talk about the end. I wanna talk about the end

[00:45:27] Michael: being grace. Lemme back up. Let me, so yeah, so let me just say it like this.

[00:45:30] What, what, what do you conclude in terms of the graceful aging here, Amit? I, I

[00:45:34] Amit: kinda like it, so I'm kind of okay with it. Um, so there was, you know, he, he was sick and a lot of the two thousands. Yeah. But he was still very public. He was doing a lot of interviews 2015 or so when he wrote this autobiography.

[00:45:47] Yeah, right.

[00:45:48] Michael: Um, it's called, but enough about me,

[00:45:50] Amit: but enough about me. Um, and the, the person that came out in those interviews is the same Burt Reynolds that we saw for the previous 50 years, but I think there is a little more ownership of who he was. Apologies for, you know, his asshole

[00:46:09] Michael: ishness. Yeah, I think there's a softening with

[00:46:11] Amit: age.

[00:46:11] Yeah, and I liked it. You know, there was a lot more opening up emotionally about, like, his lost loves and his mistakes. There was a whole, whole, whole. whole lot about the importance of friendships. Yes. Right? Yes. And that sensitivity came out, and he was like, basically, this is, this is why I'm alive. Yeah, I mean.

[00:46:29] You know, and this was my engine that, that kept me

[00:46:31] Michael: going. John Voight, Elizabeth Taylor, Johnny Carson, I mean, some very, Hal Needham, who's an interesting

[00:46:36] Amit: figure in directing. Yeah, but these were like close, close, close Stuntman,

[00:46:40] Michael: apparently. Like he was really buddies with that crew.

[00:46:43] Amit: Yeah, so I, I liked that. I liked that controlling the narrative.

[00:46:47] Yeah. At the end, but still doing it with full faculties. Yeah. Yeah. Uh, he was barely seen on screen at all in the last 10, even 15 years of his life.

[00:46:56] Michael: So all right. I see what you're saying about how he describes the importance of friendships late in life. And I, I do admire it. I still see. You know, residual bitterness with him.

[00:47:08] There's something, there's something a little bit, I don't know, I actually get kind of a repellent vibe from him. Whatever was sort of dangerous and alluring at a younger age, I find to be a little bit, like, pissed off still at an older age. Interesting. So if you have

[00:47:23] Amit: to give a knee jerk thumbs up or thumbs down to graceful aging, what would you do?

[00:47:28] Michael: I, I'm going down. Okay. I go, thumbs down. I'm going up, I'm going down. Thumbs down. But I could make a case either way. Yeah. All right. Second, another break.

[00:47:39] All right. Category eight, man in the mirror. What do we think he felt about his own reflection?

[00:47:45] Amit: I don't see anything. I don't, I don't have any hot takes.

[00:47:49] Michael: Okay. Here's what I wrote down. Okay. I think basically he loved it. I think you could make this complicated because there are clear signs of insecurity.

[00:47:58] Uh, on balance, I think that this is a confident man. He's willing to get naked for cosmopolitan centerfolds. I think he, uh, can be self critical about his own impulsiveness. So I think the conflict is on the inside, but I think this man looks in the mirror and is like, I'm glad I got this. Yeah,

[00:48:15] Amit: that's what I, when I say I don't have anything to say, that's, that's what I meant.

[00:48:18] Michael: Yeah, but It's so obvious. See, but I think that there is a looking inward that his attractiveness almost masks. I think he has a hard time looking inward because he looks great

[00:48:28] Amit: outwardly. Yeah, and I think there's this point that we made, too, of like, how do you go from being this greatest sex symbol of the 70s to eventually ending up alone?

[00:48:38] Yeah. You know, and that maybe there is the curse of the too good looking. Yeah. Uh, but I don't think he internalized that

[00:48:46] Michael: or faulted that. Yeah, I think that's right. So that's it. That's all I have on Man in the Mirror. Okay. Onward. Category nine, outgoing message. Like Man in the Mirror, we want to know how they felt about the sound of their own voice.

[00:48:57] More importantly, we want to know would they have had the humility to record their outgoing voicemail or would they have used the default setting? So. I think he

[00:49:05] Amit: liked his voice. Loved his voice. Loved to argue. Loved to, uh, you know, use his voice as an actor, but he loved to use it as a defendant. You see and feel the range here, right?

[00:49:15] Yeah. He's one of the only people I've seen, like, argue with Terry Gross as he's being interviewed. There's one of those, who would

[00:49:21] Michael: believe this stud could play somebody who had a trouble last season? That's your word, not mine. Is it, no, is that, is that basically what they were

[00:49:27] Amit: getting at? I've never called myself a stud.

[00:49:28] I've never

[00:49:30] Michael: used that word. I find that word insulting. Okay, sorry. Who would think this hunk, this hunk, or you want to call me a hunk? Handsome celebrity. I'm just, I'm just trying to get to the images that I can't defend myself, but you defend these, uh, these critics. I mean, if I, if I don't want to be called a hunk, I find that sexist on your part in reverse.

[00:49:49] Here's what I wrote down about humility. for voicemail. Ultimately I find this question very interesting because I think he did feel this need to be self deprecating in public, right? I think he felt that like this I have to make jokes at myself because of the fallibility that we've talked so much about.

[00:50:08] I also wonder how much of that was for the cameras and I kind of think on balance his ego overrode his impulse for humility and I don't think he would have left it. Yeah. I

[00:50:22] Amit: think even the, the low point of twice divorced, bankrupt Burt Reynolds still didn't have the humility to, to leave his own voicemail.

[00:50:30] And I do Ego prevails

[00:50:32] Michael: here. I mean, I do kind of blame the entertainment industry for filling these, his head with these ideas, that I am above it, that I am special, that I can have all these failures and still have opportunities and still, despite everything, die with three

[00:50:44] Amit: million. Yeah, listen, ego is a product of the external.

[00:50:47] Like, you, unless you're gonna just devote a whole lot of time to internal work, To, to basically take away power from what that external world is giving you. You, you can't fault him. Yeah.

[00:50:59] Michael: So it sounds like we're agreed on outgoing voicemail. He would not have left it. No. All right. Category 10 control Z.

[00:51:05] This is where we look for it. The big do overs, the things you might have done differently. My. goodness there's a lot available to us here. I'm not sure I landed on one control

[00:51:14] Amit: Z. I'm not. Can I go with a list of roles that he claimed to have turned down? Perfect. Okay. Uh, Sonny Corleone in The Godfather.

[00:51:21] Yes. Which was eventually played by Al Pacino. Apocalypse Now, which was Dennis Hopper's role and offered to be the first American James Bond after Sean Connery. Uh, Bruce Willis's role in Die Hard. Yes. Richard Gere's role in pretty woman. Yes. Um, Jack Nicholson's role in Terms of Endearment, which he did say is the only one he truly regrets.

[00:51:44] Han Solo, later played by Harrison Ford, and he was offered a lead role in M. A. S. H. Yes, you left

[00:51:51] Michael: one out in there, another Jack Nicholson role, One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest, apparently came up. He also was offered a role in Magnolia, which was the movie that followed Boogie Nights, Paul Thomas Anderson's.

[00:52:02] His relationship with Boogie Nights is insane. It sounds like, did not understand it. Yes. Yet, I mean, this was like a career comeback opportunity for him. He gets the Golden Globe, is nominated for the Oscar. His only

[00:52:15] Amit: Oscar nomination

[00:52:16] Michael: in his life. Correct. And he is awesome in that movie, and... He and Paul Thomas Anderson, apparently, were really butting heads.

[00:52:22] The way he tries to rewrite the story of what happened there is sort of incredible. William H. Macy in that movie is sort of like, Bert just didn't get it. Like, he basically didn't get it.

[00:52:31] Amit: But yet, he delivers this incredible performance.

[00:52:33] Michael: Incredible performance. He's so good in that movie. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, and, and, you know, he fired his agent after that movie, and like, this was an opportunity again.

[00:52:44] This gets back to the fallibility. And by the way, I mean, we're on control Z here. We could talk about this. Is all goddamn day. The same thing applies to his love life. I mean, he talks about like prioritizing his career over a relationship with Sally Field as he describes love of his life. He probably, I think, would be the first to say, I never should have married Delani Anderson.

[00:53:04] There's a lot of second guessing throughout him. I, I love his fallibility. I also think like he had to beat himself up about a lot of this shit, and I, which one of these to pick? I have a hard time whittling it down, because I wonder how he would whittle it down. You know, he may call himself an idiot, but he's also looking like he's having a lot of fun.

[00:53:25] Yeah. Which one is the big control Z here, Amit? Do you have a theory?

[00:53:29] Amit: No, I, I think ultimately none of them are. I mean, these are all hypothesized ones. I think, yes, there's a greater fortune, there's a longer lasting career, there's possibly more stability, had you have taken even one of any of these roles that I listed, but I think he just

[00:53:44] Michael: rolled with it.

[00:53:45] I want to take that idea into the next category because I want to pick apart, what does that say? That there's actually all of these and none of these tells me something. The next category, if I may? Second to last category, cocktail, coffee, or cannabis. This is where we ask, which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity?

[00:54:01] This may be a question of what drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person, or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them we're most curious about. I want coffee. I wonder what the Ctrl Z moment is for him. Interesting. Or if there is a... You know, this came up in our very first episode on Robin Leach.

[00:54:21] The idea that life is just a big fucking joke, maybe, and we're supposed to just laugh, and you can't take it that seriously, because look how insane it all is. Burt Reynolds life completely embodies this. Like, this is a big joke and I'm just going to laugh at it. And I still kind of flirt with that as like, maybe that should be the central governing life philosophy.

[00:54:39] That all of this is a big fucking cosmic joke. You know, the best we can do is try and have a little humility and like, just take things as they come and act on intuition and, and not be deliberate and not manage our careers and not manage our love lives. And, and just, I don't know, throw our hands up in the air and befuddlement, but you know, slog our way through it.

[00:54:57] Yeah. And then try and have as much fun. Because that's kind of what happened with this guy. On the other hand, there could be a whole big category of regret. And like, man, I wish I hadn't gotten in that car and gotten in that car accident. I could have been an NFL star. Or I wish I had, you know, taken Cuckoo's Nest and I, you know, would have been taking a serious act.

[00:55:13] Or I wish I'd married Sally Field or whatever it may be. Yeah. I actually think Burt would be able to tell me to. That's the other reason I want coffee. If it's a joke or not. Just how he sees it. I'm not sure he could pinpoint these left turns in his life. But I do think the man is actually smarter than we give him credit for.

[00:55:31] I think he's more talented as an actor than he maybe got credit for. But I also think his wit, that's not just like pure charm. That is actually a great sense of humor when, when deployed right is incisive. It gets at some insight, and I think he was never quite encouraged or pushed. To go deeper with that, but I think he had the bones for it.

[00:55:52] I think he had the genes for it. I think he had the brain for it. And so I would love to sit down over a cup of coffee and say like, Bert, let's really take a look here. Let's really have a look. And, you know, map out for me what the life lesson is here. Cause I'm trying to like put my finger on it and it's kind of hard.

[00:56:07] Looked like he had more fun than not. I don't know. Where do you land Bert? I actually want to invite him into the Vanderbeek, you know what I mean? So, uh, yeah, I want a cup of coffee with Bert Reynolds. Okay. What do you want?

[00:56:19] Amit: Well, I think I'm going to relax him after this intense conversation that you put him through.

[00:56:23] No, I think we'll just have a couple of like Sazeracs in a lounge, you know, our legs crossed and I just want to imitate him. I want to be that sort of like naughty charm, uh, a lot of just sharp wits and quips. I want the hang. I just think he'd be fun. I think he'd be fun. Oh, yeah. And I think you get him one on one.

[00:56:41] I think you can win him over. And I think he can elevate you into just having a good time. And I'm not saying I don't have curiosities about Burt Reynolds, and I do, and most of them I think you listed already, but I'm not going to spend three minutes repeating what you said. Okay. But. I think there is a lot to be said to, to just suspending it all and just having a

[00:57:00] Michael: little fun with Burt Reynolds.

[00:57:02] I 100 percent agree. And that was my initial reaction and I could have gone coffee or, I'm sorry. But I'm

[00:57:06] Amit: glad you did. I'm glad, one of us had to, right? And I'm like, I'm not, I'm not saying that I'm being contrarian by just not giving your same answer, but that is also a true curiosity of mine is to have that experience with him.

[00:57:18] There's a lot I want

[00:57:19] Michael: to know. And I also want the hang. Like, I actually would love to hang out. You know, so long as I catch him on the upswing of a good mood. Correct.

[00:57:28] Amit: But you've got too many questions, so you can't, you

[00:57:31] Michael: know... I don't know if I have too many questions. I have one big question. Where do you land?

[00:57:35] Mm hmm. Let's just do it, right? Let's just go for it. Category 12. Our final category, named after James Van Der Beek, who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life. Based on everything we've talked about, Amit, the big question is, do you want this life? I'd really like to hear how you're thinking

[00:57:53] Amit: about this.

[00:57:53] Yeah, so big strike against is the lonely heart. Yes. I think if you envision your life and you're in your 30s and you're called the best sex symbol of the decade, you're probably envisioning something that you're gonna have. A lot of attention thrown at you, but it's gonna resolve peacefully and eventually you'll be on a back porch somewhere with your spouse in your seventies, you know, drinking wine and reading books.

[00:58:14] Yeah. Um, and I don't think that played out for him. I think that that is, I think that's a strike against, you know, um. But I think what's impressive is fun. You know, the fact that like, we bring up fun over and over again. That he chose things for fun. Yeah. Like, he knew that perhaps, in terms of endearment, or even, um...

[00:58:34] Cuckoo's nest, whatever. Yeah, whatever, that these could be... Apocalypse now. These could be the life... Defining movies or whatever, but he was like, I chose to do what looked fun and what I could do with my friends. And that is

[00:58:44] Michael: really desirable. That's a very strong argument, actually, like, you know, when all else fails, what's the more fun thing?

[00:58:50] That's a totally

[00:58:51] Amit: desirable, right? And it's just like you said, it's like, maybe it's just a joke and maybe you just have fun. I would caveat that with do no harm, which I don't think he did. So, uh, you know, in a more ideal world, you use your power and your visibility to elevate others and correct problems.

[00:59:07] Michael: I wonder about that, actually. In his biography, there's definitely, like, passages or two where he's like, if I was a prick to you during those years, I am sorry. I think that there was, I think he, I think he could be a dickhead and I think, I think he did some harm. I think he absolutely did. I think he was a, a diva at times.

[00:59:24] I think he was irrational at times. I think looking for fun is good, but I think you're also really right to say that's dangerous if you're not being attentive to how you might inadvertently hurt people. That's how a lot of pain happens in the world. People think they're just having a good time and you're actually doing it at somebody's expense and you don't even realize it.

[00:59:41] Amit: Yeah. And we talked about that with Jerry Jeff Walker that came up quite a bit, I think. Yes. Uh, so that's an interesting thing that actually throws me off. course, a bit, but not far enough, of course. So, like I said, I, I laid out what I don't like. I think the career was significant. I think his legacy is significant.

[00:59:59] This strange corner that he occupies, I think the hard to figure out the quirkiness, the quick wit, the unpredictability, all that is exciting. You know, all that is vitality. And I don't think there's serious. None of these spats you talk about, like, I didn't come across them. You just happen to read deeper into multiple biographies.

[01:00:18] Michael: Right, and this is the thing about Bert is there's so much information out there, you could spend a lifetime, you know, familiarizing yourself with his story. Yeah, but he

[01:00:26] Amit: defined himself in the end because he was not with a lifetime partner, which I don't, think I want for myself. I don't want to be probably without a partner going into old age.

[01:00:37] But he defined himself by his friendships. Yes. And those were very meaningful and I think those friends would define themselves by their friendships with him. And that is a ring of reciprocity that is very meaningful. That's validation for life. And to do that and to be an That means something to a lot of people to do that and to have fun along the ride.

[01:01:00] It's not perfect. I don't want 100 percent of it, but I will take it. So, yeah, I want your life, Burt Reynolds.

[01:01:08] Michael: It's a very compelling answer. Yet again, I'm right on the bubble here, and it sounds like you kind of are too. Like, you know, I heard a yes in there, but I heard, you know, a 55 percent yes or something like that.

[01:01:19] Is that fair? Yeah. That's about where I am. I'm really 50 50 here. It's not just, like, whose feelings did I hurt when I was trying to be funny and I maybe came off as a prick. It's also, like, there's a certain entitled behavior that comes with when you are given this level of fame. That's more of a comment on fame overall in the entertainment industry that I continue to be sort of at war with, but I think it corrupted his mind on some ways, you know, and blinded him to the most emotional truth of himself.

[01:01:52] And I have major questions here about the, like, Overall upward trajectory, the overall growth arc, and I'm not talking about like, you know, making more money or entering new chapters of your life because as we've talked about it, it's it's a real jagged line of peaks and troughs throughout his life. I do like that at the end, he drew attention to friendships and that he also did seem to like let go of material needs in a way that like I just don't need that much money that the fact that people enjoyed this is great and the fact that I can go into Costco and have a really nice day, you know, signing photographs, you know, and I welcome that like I do see some gratitude.

[01:02:33] Did it go far enough? You know, in terms of internal growth in terms of spiritual growth, it falls short for me like that deep, like, what happens with the soul over the course of a lifetime. And spiritual growth is a very good point. Yeah, it falls short. And that probably, I think, is the deal breaker for me.

[01:02:51] I think that there's something very valuable to be learned from somebody who looks like they're having so much fun. But there is, on some level, a question of not just was I attentive to people I might have heard, but just how selfish I was overall. And how far did I take with what I was given? There was a different hand to be played with these cards.

[01:03:12] He played a good hand, he played a winning hand, but it's not quite the hand I would have wanted to play if given that opportunity. So I think I'm a no. I don't want your life, Burt Reynolds. I'm right there. I'm very close to it. I think it has to do a little bit with the lonely heart piece of it. I think it also has to do more than anything with the spiritual growth.

[01:03:32] That, that there was an opportunity for greater spiritual growth, and he couldn't quite get there. I think because of some of the forces acting upon him, not necessarily what's going on inside. But for whatever reason, he didn't get there, and it fell short for me.

[01:03:45] Amit: I see it. All right. Michael, you are Burt Reynolds.

[01:03:50] You have died. And, uh, you're at the entry point. Before you is St. Peter, the proxy, uh, for all things afterlife. You have your chance to make a pitch. What was your unique contribution to this world?

[01:04:07] Michael: St. Peter, it's actually pretty simple. I had a lot of fun down there. In fact, I was a symbol of fun. I showed people what fun looks like.

[01:04:17] And I tried to express that from the inside out with my laughter, with my smile, with my antics, with everywhere I showed up, I was there to have a good time. I also fell flat on my face on occasion. I was fallible. I did not do that perfectly. In fact, if I were to do it all over again, there's... A thousand things I might choose to do differently, but isn't that true of everyone?

[01:04:42] Aren't we all fallible? Don't we need to see what pure joy looks like at the same time? We need to see what imperfection looks like may sound like a contradiction, but it's an important model to see It's an important symbol to put on display. I think I did that. Well, I think that that was my Great purpose and I think I reminded everybody that no matter what you're given in life We're all gonna fall flat and that's okay.

[01:05:09] Try and have fun. Try and be reflective Try and do better For that. I hope you let me in

[01:05:18] Famous and gravy listeners before you leave we need you We need people to participate in our opening quiz where we reveal the dead celebrity You can email us at hello at famous and gravy And if you're enjoying our show, please tell your friends. You can find us on Twitter or X, whatever it's called these days.

[01:05:38] We are also now on threads. Our handle in both places is at Famous and Gravy. We have a newsletter you can sign up for on our website, famousandgravy. com. Famous and Gravy was created by Amit Kapoor and me, Michael Osborne. This episode was produced by the magnificent Jacob Weiss. Original theme music by Kevin Strang.

[01:05:57] Thank you so much for listening. See you next time.