084 Vocal Bedrock transcript (Johnny Cash)

Listen to the full episode and see show notes at this link.

Amit: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. Now, the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2003, age 71. He is considered a pioneer of rock and roll. In 1992, he was elected to the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame. Okay. Um, it's been done a while.

Archival: I can't even,

Michael: well, Jimmy Buffett just

Archival: died.

Michael: Yeah. Not Jimmy Buffett, but great guess. All right. In 2003, a music video of his won six nominations at the MTV Video Music Awards. 2003. David Bowie, not David Bowie, he was a guest soloist on U Two's 1993 album Zooropa.

Archival: Oh my gosh.

Michael: Well, it can't be Phil Collins. It's not Phil Collins, who as of this recording is still with us.

He fought a long battle against addiction to drugs, particularly amphetamines. Oh

Archival: [00:01:00] gosh, that could be so many.

Michael: Sadly, that does not narrow it down. Okay. All right. His voice, which projected the fateful gravity of a country patriarch and his signature look, which suggested a cowboy undertaker led him to be known as the man in black

Archival: Johnny Ca, Johnny Cas.

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Johnny Cash.

Archival: I, I could go over a lot of kitch phrases like know your own self to thy and own self be true, and the self-esteem and perseverance and confidence. That's all important. But the first thing is to know what you want to do. Set that goal out there and never lose sight of it and work toward it and know that they're gonna be by waves and sidetracks.

But keep persevering and keep on. I. That something has to be worked out with all that youthful vigor and energy a person knows when it just seems to [00:02:00] feel right to them, something they wanna do. Feelings still got a lot to do with

Amit: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Amit Kapur. And my name is Michael Osborne, and on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century and go on a search for a new narrative. Most biographies focus on legacies and accomplishments, but we were interested in the process. What didn't we know?

What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today? Johnny Cash died 2003 at age 71.

We're back. We're back. It's been a while.

Michael: Yes. It's been a few

Amit: months.

Michael: Yeah. It's good to see you. It is. Uh, I love that. I guess this is audio so people can't see, but we're dressed for the occasion. We're both wearing black. We're both men in black. Yes. I'm very happy about that. All right. Should we do this?

Yes. [00:03:00] Category one. Grading the first line of their obituary, Johnny Cash. Whose gravelly bass baritone was the vocal bedrock of American country music for more than four decades, died yesterday in Nashville. Were you disappointed

Amit: when you saw this? Initially, yes, but then I digested it. Okay. So I think, I think what you're getting at is this is just all about the voice.

So I think Johnny Cash's voice, which is hinted at at least three times here Yeah. Is really what we are talking about in the life of Johnny Cash. If you take a few steps back, not the day necessarily after he died, it's not a bad encapsulation. Mm. Of his contribution, his character and his, I don't wanna say legacy, his, his bedrock formation.

Michael: They used the word literally bedrock. Yeah. Vocal bedrock. I, I agree. That's good. Gravelly based baritone is good. You're making a case here that [00:04:00] all the attention on the voice is like the right level of attention. It feels

Amit: narrow in scope to me. It is very narrow, but I think it actually encompasses so much of the story.

Hmm. Does it do justice of what we say that we want the first line to do, which is to. Be the headline of what this person achieved

Michael: and the the hook, the news lead. Right. I mean the sort of like, why they're important.

Amit: Yeah. So it's not, I, I like the accuracy of it, weirdly, and that's gonna come out, I think, over the rest of this conversation.

Yeah. But I don't like the lack of proper attribution.

Michael: Say more. I don't understand proper

Amit: nouns.

Michael: Oh, okay. Like either

Amit: who was known as the man in Black, throw in Boy named Sue or Folsom Prison Blues or something. Yeah. Throw in the Highwaymen, I don't know. Throw in, you know, the fourth quarter run with Rick Rubin and the American recordings.

Sure. That would've been great. Who started with Elvis?

Michael: Yeah. And ended with a sort of, you know, a a 21st Century producer. Yeah, yeah. A

Amit: youthful comeback [00:05:00] or something like that.

Michael: Right. I mean, there is no. Trial and tribulations here, ups and downs, which is very much the story of his life. In fact, there's very little story.

To call him a vocal bedrock makes it seem sort of not flat to me, but not a, you know, a story with highs and lows.

Amit: Exactly. So this is maybe where I'm defending it, like this is a good plaque in front of the Johnny Cash statue somewhere, but I'm not liking it as a first line of obituary. Yeah, because I, again, I'm gonna say it's weirdly accurate for me, but I'm with you.

The, the lack of narrative is, is starting. To piss me off a little bit.

Michael: Well, it's funny 'cause I'm sort of going the other direction now that you've pointed out how much attention. His voice gets here and there. There's this sort of literal voice, the gravelly based baritone, but then there's a metaphorical voice, right?

The vocal bedrock. Yes. Right. That, I mean, this is something that I really want to talk about in this conversation. What does he represent? What does his voice. Both in literal and metaphorical sense represent American music and American folklore and [00:06:00] American pop culture. I mean, one thing that's really striking about Johnny Cash, one of the reasons we are doing this episode as the first one where we're going a little deeper into history than normal is his durability.

You still see Johnny Cash, t-shirts and bumper stickers and posters all over the place, even though he's been dead more than 20 years now?

Amit: Correct.

Michael: Why? Why is that?

Amit: Why did you ask? What does his voice represent? So Bono said, every man knows he has a sissy compared to Johnny Cash. That's. Right.

Michael: That's true.

I do

Amit: feel

Michael: like a sissy compared

Amit: to Johnny Cash. But this is, I think what his voice represents and, and I wanna bring a lot of this to the discussion, is I think he is a sissy badass.

Michael: Yeah. I, okay. Okay. He's a badass. Sissy. Okay. We're bleeding into a future categories. 'cause I have a similar thing. Yeah. But

Amit: I think that's what his voice represents.

A

Michael: sissy badass. Yeah,

Amit: badass sissy. Which is better. I, I

Michael: know what you mean. And we're gonna talk about it, but that's what it represents.

Amit: It represents two things. Yeah. It represents. This bedrock solid foundation with a lot of heart and a lot of sensitivity.

Michael: Yes. Uh, a hundred percent compass, but the deeper that

Amit: voice goes, [00:07:00] it's easier to latch on to the badass part.

Right, right. And it feels very America, it feels very trains and prisons and grit. And it kind of hearkens back to what we think is a simpler time,

Michael: but it also has emotional vulnerability, but it also pulls at heartstrings. Okay. So,

Amit: so in short, it's what we want out of all music to just both transplant us somewhere else and also move us.

And I think that's the bedrock they're talking about.

Michael: All right, so to get back to the first line of the obituary, actually, you've made a very good case for the disproportionate attention to his voice. I just wish there were more, you know, American country music for four decades. Accurate, true. But there's a lot of people who have been around many decades.

It doesn't get at that highs and lows. So there's some major wins for this first line in my mind. There's also some major losses. I have my score.

Amit: Okay.

Michael: I'm gonna go six. I'm gonna give it better than average. Mm-Hmm. Because you've really made a case. I was gonna go lower. I was gonna go below average. I saw, I saw it in your eyes,

Amit: but you, you, the gravel, the spit in your eye,

Michael: you, God damn, [00:08:00] you've won me over.

You've bumped me up a few points. So I'm going six.

Amit: Okay. I'm, uh, just above you at a seven. 'cause like I said, I think it tells more of the story than meets the eye.

Michael: Yeah. But

Amit: I do want the proper nouns in there. I need at least a song, at least a nickname, or at least somebody else that he was associated with in a huge way.

Michael: Yeah. And. It's not something we usually discuss. I will say the rest of the obituary does have the kind of language I'm looking for. Get this line. This is great. Uh, known as the man in black, both for his voice, which projected the fateful gravity of a country patriarch, and for his signature look, which suggested a cowboy undertaker.

Mr. Cash was one of the few performers who outlasted trends to become a mythical figure rediscovered by each new generation. That almost feels like a first line. So it is a good obituary, but not the first line. It gets assessed, so it doesn't matter. Alright, category two, five things I love about you here.

Amit and I develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived. So, uh, number one, [00:09:00] I

Amit: said town crier. Mm. Um, this well

Michael: done

Amit: this, man. It's a very old timey turn. Thank you. Thank you. Yeah. Uh, Johnny Cash's musical career is largely built on crying in tears.

His very first debut single was Cry, cry, cry. Yeah. Most of Johnny Cash's hits as well also refer to crying in tears.

Archival: Thought to weep in Willow how to cry. I got all choked up and I flew down my gun. When I hear that whistle blowing, I hang my head and cry. You're going cry, cry, cry, and you cry alone. I hurt myself today.

Amit: This man cried for the better half of 45 years in microphones. Yet he is according to Bono and most other people, he's one of the biggest [00:10:00] badasses of our time.

Michael: Yes.

Amit: And so he managed to pull off what I am calling a, I actually wrote, I didn't wrote Sissy, badass, I wrote, he's the softest badass we ever knew.

Michael: What strikes me about you saying that and pointing out how often. Crying literal tears from one's eyes comes up in Johnny Cash's songs is he is the 20th century embodiment of masculinity in a lot of different ways. He's got this mythical western cowboy persona, which is, you know, keep it all bottled up inside, right?

Grown men don't cry. This is something that I think generationally is changing a little bit, but it was hiding in plain sight as something that he was in his own way advocating for, or at least like betraying. There's a truth about his soul and who he was. Exactly. But the,

Amit: the narrative or what we're remembering about Johnny Cash now 20 years later, is that I still just think of like street fights and brawls and picturing him fighting with this fictional dad in boy named Sue.

Yeah. All of that is like the Johnny Cash that we sort of remember. But I think he is entire musical [00:11:00] career is just built on expressing pain in a deep voice. And we love that. No, uh, a hundred percent love that. We love that. But we've kind of forgotten,

Michael: but, well, or it's not. Point it out the way you're pointing it out, you know, and I, yeah.

I think it's

Amit: remembered more as more bad assery than it really is as sensitivity.

Michael: Yes. I think that that's, uh, a very astute observation. Okay. I'll go with my number two. Yeah. Um, I wrote, he's just non-judgmental.

Amit: Hmm.

Michael: Part of it is his professional affiliations and and friendships. I think Bob Dylan is a great example.

Yeah. He had a hold of Bob Dylan's like first record and immediately was like, who is that guy? And this is a famous moment when Bob Dylan shows up on the Johnny Cash Show, like 1966 or so. They became friends at the Newport Folk Film Festival. That was when they like met and kind of connected, but they remained friends in kindred spirits throughout their lives.

Archival: A good friend Bob Dylan would like to do one of his. Songs and, um, [00:12:00] we've been doing it on our shills all over the country and trying to tell the folks about Bob that, uh, we think he's the best songwriter of the. The Age Sons, Pete Seeger. Sure do.

Michael: Rick Rubin, I think is another great example. I mean, was there a friendship there?

Uh, yes. More than you would realize. So I read a biography just called Johnny Cash, the Life. I've read a few books on Johnny Cash. Robert Hillburn. This one was. Really comprehensive and people remarked on just how detailed it was. There is a friendship there. There was initial skepticism, right? I mean, Johnny Cash is at a kind of low point in his career.

In the late eighties, he'd been dropped from Columbia and things were not going well at Mercury. And Rick Rubin comes along and. You know, is looking for a challenge. 'cause Rick Rubin had produced the Beastie Boys and run DMC and like was also known for like rap and heavy metal. Mm-Hmm. He was looking for a challenge.

They connected Initially Johnny Cash was like, who is this long-haired hippie. They clearly developed a respect and I would it. [00:13:00] It looks like friendship. I mean, he is on the phone with Rick Rubin for the rest of his life talking about the next project. It's such an unusual collaboration born. If you ask me out of a, I'm not gonna judge a book by its cover, you know, this looks like a man who I don't have a whole hell of a lot in common with.

He's producing rap and heavy metal. Why the hell would he want an old country singer? But I think non-judgmental gets at a deeper idea For me. It, it, it is the not. Looking at a book by its cover and it is seeing somebody's real humanity and absolutely, that's what I love about Johnny Cash. I mean, he voice for the underdog.

Whether you're talking about Native Americans or prisoners or addicts or railroad hobos or whatever it was, I, I feel like there is this. Humanitarian streak in him that is so admirable, but it's born out of a kind of flattening of the human spirit and the human experience that is decidedly non-judgmental.

It's something I think is such a deep streak in him [00:14:00] that it remains part of his charisma. I think it's woven into his. Persona. I mean, he can point to Bob Dylan, Rick Rubin, bono Willie, you know, you name it like the people he shares a stage with. But more than anything, you see it in his behavior. You see it in his persona.

While I would be intimidated to be in front of Johnny Cash, I don't feel like he's gonna judge you or judge me. Yeah. Or judge anybody else. And I think that that's a rare and extremely admirable quality. And so I love that about him.

Amit: Do you think that that is a overcompensation for all the self-judgment that he put himself through?

Michael: I've had that thought as I was writing it down, and I don't know if I'd say overcompensation, but I do think it is woven insight and out of him, I think it's part of the inner life that has an outward expression, because I do think he is a, obviously very conflicted man. And, and we'll get into

Amit: that. Yeah, you're right.

I, overcompensation wasn't the right word, but it's basically filling one bucket more as, as one is, is.

Michael: I know what you mean. Yes. Overcompensation makes it sound like a defense [00:15:00] mechanism. Yeah. And I don't think it's that. I think it is actually born out of a spiritual pursuit more than anything else.

Amit: Okay.

Yeah. So that's my number two. All right. Thing three, four years older than Elvis.

Michael: Nice.

Amit: Like, holy god, man. Like so one, I actually looked it up. So Johnny Cash said in all these interviews, like, I'm four years older than Elvis. Elvis was that young man. Yeah. And I looked it up. He was actually three years older, but we're gonna, it was the fifties.

You. The Google was less popular

Michael: and they came up together. I mean, is that why you're pointing it out? I'm

Amit: well, yes. So they came up at the exact same time. They were El more, Elvis was a

Michael: little earlier, I think, but, but they both came to Sam Phillips in Tennessee, correct. You know, around the same time.

Amit: Yeah.

And both living out of Memphis, they're opening for each other. Right. Elvis died in 77. Right, right. Around the years that, that you and I were born. Yeah. Elvis to me is super old timey. Hmm. Johnny Cash is not super old timey. He is a still a today's artist, and this is a lot due to the revival that came in the nineties that you alluded to.

But I think [00:16:00] just that fact points to this incredible lifespan of four and a half decades in music and transcending so many audiences. Yeah, I don't think his style necessarily changed that drastically, except. For until the very end.

Michael: Yeah. It's elemental. It's got a simplicity to it for sure. I mean, it's all, it's all, it's very stripped down.

Even the more produced stuff like Highway Man is, feels kind of like stripped down, produced, you know? Yeah. Yeah. I can agree with that.

Amit: But four years older than Elvis, I think that tells the entire story of how we relate to Johnny Cash and people born in the early 1930s. Giant, giant gap.

Michael: I love that.

That's a great number three. All right, I'm gonna go a little left field here. Okay. Fishermen. Fisherman. I love that. He loves fishing. This comes up all the time. So there's this, you know, apocryphal story of when his brother died, when he was young. This is in the movie. Yes. This is a

Amit: life shaping story,

Michael: life shaping story, right?

He had an older brother who he loved, who was like everybody agreed, was destined to become a preacher. One day he uh, wants to go fishing. He is trying to get [00:17:00] his brother to go. His brother says, no, I need to help this guy out in town.

Archival: He started imitating bugs money, and I saw, I'll see you later, doc. And he kept guard going on this way and I went this way.

I got to the river and it was the worst day for fishing I'd ever come to. And I, I laid down on the bank and stayed lay there probably like two hours, and then got up and headed back home. I get back, got back to this junction and my father came up in, uh, in the preacher's car and told me to jump in. He said, and throw you a fishing bowl away.

And I knew something really bad had happened and I asked him and he said, Jack has been hurt on the table. Saw. Cut here and, uh, there's no hope for him. It was pretty heavy time for me.

Michael: And this haunts Johnny Cash for the rest of his life. There's all kinds of fishing stories with Johnny Cash. There's another one where he goes fishing with his nephew and almost causes an extinction of the California condor.

Did you see this one? No. [00:18:00] Yeah, he started a forest fire and actually they would've gone extinct had these birds not bred, been bred in captivity. He has a falling out with his, it doesn't matter. He like. He talks about, a lot of stories will begin in a, I was out fishing with this person kind of way, or I wanted to go fishing with this person.

I like that. That's his refuge. He's a country boy through and through. You know how good of a fisherman he is. I don't know. Let me ask you this. What's your relationship to fishing?

Amit: I. Used to do it a lot as a kid. Either would go to the creek by my house or one of my friends had, his parents had a boat, so we would go to that lake, but not necessarily like go out on the boat.

Yeah, just sit on the pier and fish. Yeah. It was very like a Huck fin in the eighties for an Indian boy. I.

Michael: I'm not. That sounds right. I like that image. Um, I'm not much of a fisherman. I've got a couple buddies who are super into it, like, you know, compete in tournaments.

Amit: I I picture you in waiters like half the time though.

I'm,

Michael: yeah. Not a, a lot of people see me as more of a fisherman than I probably am, but I get it enough that there is [00:19:00] a sense of peace, connection and, and slow rhythm pacing that is just very consistent with who Johnny Cash is. And, uh, I love that about him. So I wrote, I wrote that for my number four. He's a fisherman.

Amit: Okay. I feel like I need to contrast that. So I've got two in the running for number five. I am gonna go with activist. Oh, wow. Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Uh, the, he was the Greta Thornberg of, uh, of his time. This goes back, I think, to a little bit of the badass, sissy.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: But Johnny Cash was all about the downtrodden.

Yes. Right. All about those that had been left out. And he didn't just sing about it. He actually did. Act on it. So he did a lot for prison reform, played these concerts that are gonna come up more often, which we all know in Folsom and San Quentin, he took on Native American causes. Yeah. So played benefit concerts, did fundraisers for them.

He was part Cherokee, but he said he claimed to be part Cherokee. Think that's little bit contested. We didn't really, it's a little Elizabeth Warren, isn't it? Yeah,

Michael: I, it's the, I forgot that she did that. I think it [00:20:00] might be, I think that there's some question about his actual bloodline.

Amit: The more important thing is that he, I think sympathizes with them.

Yeah. Ballot about Ira

Michael: Hayes. I mean, that's a big one. Yeah,

Amit: exactly. But just being a depression era kid suffering through addiction, he saw a lot in the plight of the Native Americans. Yeah. And actually did something about it, like made it a cause. He, um,

Michael: his actual political affiliations are a little hard to pin down and I don't even think they're that important.

I'll ask. Yeah.

Amit: That's the funny thing about this genre of country music. If we're gonna just group this into outlaw, it's a little different because it's more Nashville centric.

Michael: I had outlaw pioneer. I mean, I think the outlaw movement would not exist without Johnny Cash. He enabled Willie and Waylon and the rest of them to

Amit: correct.

But whether they sit on the left or on the right, you don't really know.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: They have a lot of qualities of both. You look at, you know, Toby, Keith, Kenny, Chesney, those people from today, you know exactly where they sit. Totally. Uh, these guys love to to hover in both camps.

Michael: Yeah. And I think they're more apolitical, but they, what's interesting is that there's an [00:21:00] apolitical, but they're still an activist, you know, champion of the underdog streak in them.

Amit: Yeah. Champion is a great word. And that's one that I, I wrote down a quote that Chris Christofferson said about Johnny. Said he was willing and able to be the champion of people who didn't have one. So let me run out this activist point. He had the Johnny Cash Show, right? Which he got, I believe in 1969.

This is after Folsom Prison really had taken off the album Folsom Prison. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And he had Charlie Pride on the show in 1969, and he hugged Charlie Pride on stage. Yeah, they were very good friends.

Michael: Charlie Pride is black man.

Amit: Yeah. I guess I should have stated, not everybody knows that, but Yeah, correct.

He said the next week the letters from the Klan started pouring in.

Archival: It was Charlie Pride that I hugged on my television show. The letter came the next week from the plan written in blood. It would be dangerous to become complacent and think the attitudes changed.

Amit: He's only at this point, 35 years removed from growing up in really rural Arkansas, reckoning with his own upbringings and racism, but he had well [00:22:00] transcended it, which is not.

Easy given time, place, and context of rural Arkansas in the thirties and everything that was going on in the country, and especially the south throughout that time. It's pretty reasonably progressive. Yeah. And so yeah, Johnny Cash, the activist. Recap.

Michael: All right. Number one, you said town crier Number two. I said non-judgmental number three,

Amit: four years older than Elvis.

Michael: That's right. Four. I said fishermen. And number five, the

Amit: activist.

Michael: Next category. One. Love. In this category, Amman and I each choose. One word or phrase that characterizes their loving relationships. This is really about the family life. So before we select our word or phrase, we will review the life data.

Johnny Cash had two marriages. The first one to Vivian, Roberto, and they were married in 1954, divorced in 1966 or 67. She filed in 66. I couldn't figure out when they were, it was finalized. Johnny was 22 when they married. He was 35 or so when they divorced. They [00:23:00] had four children, all girls, the oldest of which is Roseanne Cash, the famous country singer in her own right.

Second marriage. This is the more famous one to June Carter in 1968. June died in 2003, just months before Johnny. Johnny was aged 36 when they married and 71 when she died. June had two daughters from their previous marriage. They had one son together, John Carter Cash. Okay. I've got my word, but I had to,

Amit: this is hard.

This was a hard one to do. This is a hard new category.

Michael: I'm a little proud of my word.

Amit: Okay. You wanna hear it? So you gotta, yeah, I must,

Michael: I went with

Amit: tempestuous. Tempestuous.

Michael: Yes.

Amit: Okay.

Michael: Okay. There's a few reasons I went with that. I was thinking like, it it, it's chaotic. What you know about his personal life may not be right, especially if you only watch the movie Walk the Line.

'cause it makes it seem like he sobers up in the sixties and they lived happily ever after. Every peachy. Oh my God, no. Johnny Cash got into amphetamines at a young age, but then [00:24:00] had multiple relapses. Some of 'em related to pain, some of 'em related to hard days on the road. There's also a whole lot of extramarital affairs, even though he's constantly trying to fight his way back to being a good Christian.

'cause he is very devout, uh, throughout his whole life. So. Temp tempestuous was the word I chose because there's a few reasons. So one, it's sort of synonymous with chaos. I also, it made me think of the tempest. The Shakespeare play and there is something Shakespearean about Johnny Cash and June Carter, right?

Yeah. There is a kind of kindliness to who he is and there's a Shakespearean quality into, in terms of our interest in his family life. It also made me think of the song Man comes Around. I. Which was one of his last hits, which has this famous line, the whirlwind is in the thorn tree. Tempestuous literally means intense windstorm, violent, strong wind, accompanied by rain, snow, and hail.

I think it's a very chaotic home life. I think that there is [00:25:00] love. Deep love. Yes. Between him and June Carter, but there's some big drama behind the scenes. One of the big revelations is that Johnny Cash in the late sixties had an affair with June's sister, and that seemed like at first to be like a National Inquirer kind of rumor.

Rumor. It's very,

Amit: very Hamilton of Johnny Cash

Michael: and it's true. And she sort of forgives and berries, uh, or at least keeps that out of the public limelight. Uh, but it seems verified. This is June's sister who. It looks like she also had an abortion, so this is like high drama shit.

Amit: Was that someone's book?

Michael: This is in the biography. It's not, he didn't come clean with all any of this. Not in the autobiography. Yeah. This is more something that comes out after the fact. The kids are also, at least the, the first four daughters feel like he, there was an estrangement, his first wife. I mean, she was devout Catholic for her divorce was a great sin.

So she came to divorce in a very hard way when they finally do split in 66 or 67. So while I do think [00:26:00] he's a loving man and fighting for the right thing, it is a troubled home life. There's just no question about it.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: So I went tempestuous.

Amit: Okay. My phrase is Second Mountain, which I borrowed from a book by David Brooks that he wrote in the last.

Five years. His book was about basically second mountains in life and different types of achievement. What I mean by this second mountain is that you climb the first mountain in life. You know what you think you're, you're achieving what your goal is, the home that you're making for yourself while you're climbing that mountain.

You cannot see that there may possibly be a second mountain or a third mountain or so forth, that you think that the only thing on the other side of the first mountain if you fail to make it, is just tumbling down and Johnny Cash. Did do terrible by his first marriage. Yeah. To Vivian, like he was 100% culpable for not coming home, for basically living this road rockstar life.

While she has left at home with the family, he repented and he reached the bottom of his darkness [00:27:00] and June Carter sort of lifted and back up, as you said, like. The story's not that clean, relapsed. A lot of times it wasn't a perfect marriage, but it was his second mountain.

Michael: Yeah, it

Amit: was his second opportunity.

I'm putting a much more positive spin on it than you. Well,

Michael: I actually think you're right to do it. I think it's somewhere in between. I think that there is a mythology out there that this marriage represents a symbol of purity and and redemption and greatness, and I think that. Is only half true. I think that there was a lot of argumentation and deceit and betrayal and frustration and pain behind the scenes while at the same time there was an acceptance and loving and understanding that ultimately does in my mind, I.

You know, when you get as close to the truth of it as you can, it looks like actually a healthy, great marriage. Yes. It's just not quite as shiny as was presented in popular imagination. So I, I'm on, on board with the Second Mountain idea that this ultimately [00:28:00] was a marriage of understanding, but it's also one that's in the context of.

You know, being on the road, touring lifestyle, a culture outside the norm that most of us experience every day.

Amit: And it's also about redemption. Yeah. And as much as Johnny Cash's story is about redemption in his career, redemption from drugs or renewed Christianity, this is really a way for him to redeem his past love sins port.

Yeah. So to say.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, I think I'm really okay with both of our words because I think they get at. Some truth about what was really there.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: But it's also complicated truth. Totally. Which is always gonna be the case in this category.

Amit: Yeah. Okay, let's move on. So you said contemptuous? Tempestuous.

Tempestuous,

Michael: yeah.

Amit: And I said Second Mountain.

Michael: Second Mountain. Good words. All right, net worth. So in this category we write down our numbers, guessing this person's net worth ahead of time. We will then look it up in real time and the person closest to the actual number, we will [00:29:00] explain their reasoning. We will also place the number on the famous and gravy net worth leaderboard, which Ahmed will say more about here in a moment.

You ready?

Amit: I'm ready. So I reveal yours first? Yep. Okay. Michael Osborne, guest, 25 million. Wow. Ahmed Kippur guest. 12 million. Okay. And the correct answer is 60 million. Johnny Cash is net worth 60 million. Oh, Mike, this is not what I expected. You've

Michael: always been so much better than I should be.

Amit: Theoretically, given a, a financial background.

Michael: Well, I thought. That he did lose a ton of it. I know that there was a big bankroll. He had a lot of people on staff. I mean, he had an entourage pretty much from the mid sixties onward. So I would've thought had he handled his money better, that he would've been closer to 50 million. But going into the less than 20 felt uncomfortable to me.

I assumed no matter what for his entire career, he could sell concert tickets and he was performing all the time. [00:30:00] One of the things I got in reading through the biography is this man was always, always, always on the road, and he was very big overseas, so I had a hard time imagining anything less than 20 million.

I bumped it to 25. I'm still surprised to see it's 60.

Amit: I thought, you know, he complained of going broke in the sixties and again in the seventies. Yeah. Maybe that was just language. If he wasn't really selling albums or CDs at that point until the nineties, he didn't have much time for that to compound.

Michael: This is like broke by like, you know, music icon standards, which is only so broke, right? It's, this is not dio Madonna broke.

Amit: Yeah. So what we're doing is we're now placing them on the famous and gravy leaderboard. So Johnny Cash at 60 million comes in a three-way tie. For 18th place, including his compatriots, Mary Tyler Moore and Olivia Newton John.

Wow. Also ended at 60 million. So that places them just outside the top quarter of Famous and Gravy episodes, but within the top 30%.

Michael: So Johnny Cash is tied with Mary [00:31:00] Tyler Moore and Olivia Newton John.

Amit: Yes.

Michael: Who's above and who's below this? Tied at 18th?

Amit: Just above would be Angela Lansbury. Interesting. Uh, just below would be Bob Saggot.

Michael: 60 million. Well done Johnny Cash. I am glad to see that number. I gotta say

Amit: I am too. Yeah. I'm, I'm glad, I'm very glad I lost, I wanted to be higher.

Michael: Yeah. All right. New category. Little Lebowski, urban achievers.

Archival: They're the little Lebowski. Urban achievers. Yeah. The achievers. Yes. And proud. We are, of all of them

Michael: in this category, we choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, or any other form of a hat tip that we wanna bring into the conversation.

What do, what do you got for Little Lebowski Urban Achiever?

Amit: Swingers.

Michael: Ah.

Amit: Ah, yeah. So let me explain the 1996 movie Swinger starring Vince Vaughn and Jean Favreau. There was a character in it named Sue. So as Sue was introduced. They explained why,

Archival: what's that guy's name again? Sue. Sue. Yeah. His dad was a big Johnny Cash fan from my understanding.

Oh, right, right, right. With a song. Yeah. Boy named Sue. Right. So I think it was such a mean cat, [00:32:00] that guy. Oh, he's a bad guy. You know, look at he's, he's mean, man. I seen him in a fight once. He just had a guy who was just fucking smacking his fucking head into the curb, like his mouth just fucking smashed his teeth came out.

Fucking fucking blood came outta his fucking mouth, man, guy.

Amit: And how that scene played out is when they left, that was in a bar, and then when they left the bar, they were kind of approached in a parking lot fight. And this character Sue, who was previously just described this way, rather than like engaging, just keeps like yelling out.

Like, who are you calling a bitch? Who are you calling a bitch? Yeah. And then he pulls a gun. Yeah. Okay. Which is the exact. Opposite of the description that John Favreau gave of Sue. This is like a Johnny Cash hat tip in so many ways. Hmm, right? Is that like this idea of this rough and tumble willing to engage?

In a bar fight at any time, but in reality is probably a bit more of a softie. And [00:33:00] the next scene they show up at Trent's apartment, Trent Ping, Vince Vaughn and the guys that that had confronted them in the parking lot were in there playing Sega Hockey. With Sue and all the guys and Sue had come around and said, yeah, I talked it over.

We smoothed it over and I, I brought him in. We're we're, we're all friends. Now, again, part of like the Johnny Cash hat tip of this, like rough and tumble, but then like, ah, bring him back in.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: The character Sue also had Johnny Cash hair and he dressed like Johnny Cash. Yes. Like they did in this late nineties rockabilly sort of way.

So I chose this as my little leki, urban achievers. Partly 'cause of the personal significance. Mm-Hmm. When I saw Swingers, this was right around the time I was getting introduced to Johnny Cash. Late nineties. Yeah,

Michael: me too.

Amit: That that really prompted me to like go. You couldn't really download boy names Sue.

No. Me to like go list. No, it You interested in?

Michael: Yeah. I got you. Interested in the lore of Johnny Cash? Yes. Yeah. I think everybody probably knows this, but boy named Sue written by. She Silverstein, the same person who wrote where the [00:34:00] sidewalk ends and the children's books. Johnny Cash actually said in interviews, ever since that song, he runs into Sue's all the time.

Archival: Did you ever hear from people who had boys born into them during that summer? Yeah. And foolishly named the kids Sue. I, I still do. I still do. Oh, I, I've heard from a lot of men named Sue. Matter of fact, I know a guy named Sue Cash. He's a judge in Arkansas, but is it Sue? S-I-O-U-X? Like Sue Indians or no, S-U-E-S-U-E.

Yeah.

Michael: Okay, I'm gonna go with the obvious one.

Amit: The Simpsons

Michael: gotta go with the Simpsons. That's so good. Uh, it's one of my top favorite Simpsons episodes. I was really close to going with Stephen King, the Gun Slinger. There's a character named The Man in Black and I looked into it and there is a great picture of Stephen King and Johnny Cash on stage playing music together in 1987.

This is from the. University of Maine's website. There's nothing else they say about that other than the man in Black was visiting the main campus. Anyway, Simpsons 1997, Johnny Cash the [00:35:00] coyote who takes Homer. The space Coyote is the lady, the space Coyote. Coyote who takes Homer on a spiritual quest or guides Homer through a spiritual quest when he accidentally eats too many chili peppers.

Archival: We are not Homer. I am your spirit guide. I am. There is a lesson you must learn. If it's about laying off the insanity peppers, I'm way ahead of you. No, I speak of a deeper wisdom. The problem, Homer, is that the mind is always chattering away with a thousand thoughts at once. Yeah, that's me. All right.

Michael: So that was my Little Lebowski Urban achiever.

It's a great moment for Johnny Cash 1997 as he's experiencing this resurgence, this rejuvenation, finding these new audiences, and then shows up and I think easily one of the top five Simpsons episodes of all time.

Amit: Totally. And I don't think it's any coincidence that our choices were to gear apart.

Michael: Yeah.

Uh, alright. Next category. This is a new one. Words to Live by. In this category, we choose a quote. [00:36:00] These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them, that, for whatever reason, resonated with us in a certain way. I had a hard time with this 'cause there's a lot I like,

Amit: there's a whole lot to like,

Michael: yeah, I, there's, there's some great quips you could borrow from a.

Song if you wanted to. There's actually something in the biography where he talks very eloquently about Kurt Cobain, which I thought about bringing it in because Johnny Cash has this sort of interesting relationship with grunge music, covering sound garden's, rusty Cage, and obviously hurt, you know, which is a Trent Resner Knight ish nail song.

So I thought about that one. I decided to go for something a little simpler. I just liked this. He said, success is having to worry about every damn thing in the world. Accept money.

Amit: That's also mine. You're kidding. I dunno if I have a backup though, so, okay. Is that right? Yes.

Michael: Oh man. Okay. I got a backup too.

No, no, no.

Amit: You go with yours. That's awesome.

Michael: I think that it just says like, money is not gonna solve the problem.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: You know? And success solves the money problem and that's it. Yes. And you are [00:37:00] still worried about every damn thing in the world. Maybe even worried about more.

Amit: And I think what drew you to it, I'm guessing is it's so thematically in tune with the show.

Michael: Yes.

Amit: That like they are not better. Just richer. Mm-Hmm. In this case, Johnny Cash is just saying, I am not better than I was before. I'm just richer. Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. Exactly. Exactly. It's the For Gump thing, one less thing. Yes. You know, I don't have to worry about money anymore.

Amit: Yeah. But I think in a, in a guy like Johnny Cash, who we talk about expresses pain and accumulates pain.

I mean, it's maybe just as that bucket depletes, the pain bucket increases.

Michael: Yeah. I, I think I well said. All right, so what did you have?

Amit: Um, that, but my, my backup was sometimes I'm two people. Johnny is the nicest one. Cash causes all the trouble. They fight.

Michael: Almost had this one. Okay. Uh, myself, I love this one.

Yeah. Johnny.

Amit: Yeah. So, so we've talked about the dichotomous nature of Johnny Cash, of being both badass and sensitive. Yeah. And I like how he divides this into two parts of him in a [00:38:00] very different way than like, you know, good angel, bad devil on my shoulder. Yeah. You give some personalities. Yeah, but it's interesting that he says Johnny is the nice one.

Cash causes all the trouble. So you liked it that

Michael: it wasn't about good and evil so much, or you read something different than the good and evil, the nice one, and causes all the trouble?

Amit: Yeah. It's saying that it's two parts of me. It's not two, two temptations or two different competing voices. It's I, I am actually both.

Yeah. I think it's interesting his choosing of cash causes all the trouble. Hmm. Because I think that goes back to the upbringing and relationship with his father, specifically this lifelong,

Michael: yeah.

Amit: Trying to get his father's approval, which I think after his older brother Jack died, was amplified throughout the rest of his life.

He talks about even like when he took his dad to the White House or to meet Billy Graham. Yeah. He still wasn't impressed. Even though Johnny Cash is this. Person worth $60 million going to these things. And that the Johnny is the nice one. I just kind of like that. It's kind of cute. Yeah. You know, because it's, you know, Johnny Alone is, is a cute name, which is [00:39:00] again, one of the many interesting contradictions of Johnny Cash.

Yeah.

Michael: Johnny is not, no, it's, it's, it's, uh, a nickname that is like filled with like camaraderie and like familiarity and friendliness.

Amit: Right? Yeah. But I just think the open acknowledgement of two of us, it's a great way to encapsulate it.

Michael: Well, and it sums it up in a two word sentence. They fight. They fight.

Yeah. That's really good.

Amit: So who's, who's the good one? Michael is the nice one. Osborne is, causes all the trouble. Oh, that's a good, that's an interesting question. I can answer mine. Yeah. What's yours? Amit in Hindi means? Well, the proper pronunciation, Amit Yeah. Means boundless without boundaries.

Interesting. So that's where all the trouble is caused. Yeah. The kapo is the, the solid foundation, the nice ones. I, I,

Michael: I think Michael means like, like God or something. There's like a God like this. Oh, come on, please, Don. I'm serious. If you look it up again, I'm been looking at, look, I'm. All I know is I'm holy.

No, I'm actually, that's the problem. You

Amit: use this to make me pay for dinner last night in town. What

Michael: does Michael

Amit: mean? Don't tell me you're Googling this for the first time at age [00:40:00] 45. I, yeah, we

Michael: occasionally take, uh, no. Uh, yeah. It says it. It's Michael is of Hebrew origin. It means who is like, God. I think that's the bad one.

Okay. Yeah. I'm no good playing God though. That's a living

Amit: expectation. Living up the expectations.

Michael: Yeah. Hell yeah. That's a hundred percent. Okay. I, I think Osborn's the safer territory for me. Okay. You know, I'm, I'm one among many Osborn's. It's a very common last name. It gets spelled all kinds of ways.

Amit: Okay. So you and I are both reverse, Johnny Cassius? I think so. We both have the first name, Temptu, correct.

Michael: Uh. Okay. Next category, man in the mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment.

I thought this was hard. Mm-Hmm. I struggled on this one. I have an answer, but it is a total coin toss for me.

Amit: I'm a little more certain.

Michael: Are you okay? You get it then? Yeah.

Amit: The words. Hi, I'm Johnny Cash. What? He opened every, um, hello. I'm Johnny

Michael: Cash. I think

Amit: sometimes [00:41:00] as high. Sometimes it was Hello? In Folsom Pros and Blues it was.

Hello?

Archival: Yeah.

Amit: And so then maybe that's what we remember most.

Archival: Hello, I'm Johnny Cash

Amit: in Backstage Pass the Willie Nelson Show. It's, hi, I'm Johnny Cash. Oh, that doesn't matter. He starts it all by pronouncing and claiming who he is. Right. This is a guy that works on affirmations. Hmm. Right. He steps up on stage, he declares who he is. There is a certain sense of pride in centering that he must do in order to lead himself and perform and present.

Michael: I just wanna linger on that for a second. Ahmed works on affirmations. I think it's really a great observation and I hadn't thought of that.

Amit: Yeah, and I think that that is just a clue to, to how I think Johnny Cash looks at himself in the mirror. He. Probably he sees an addict.

Michael: Yeah, he sees an inner conflict.

He sees Johnny and Cash and they fight. Correct. I mean, yeah. They, they like, he's very transparent about the inner conflict.

Amit: Yeah. But he sees, hi, I'm Johnny Cash. They fight, but they do come together as a whole Yeah. Like, like Transformers do. Yeah. [00:42:00] He's also a man of deep, deep faith. Yes. Right. And he's the type of guy that just, I think looks and gazes deep into his own eyes, or you know, someone else's.

Eyes and really sees the deep soul.

Michael: I agree with that and I, I think back to my, you asked this earlier when I said non-judgmental was one of my favorite things. I think this is kind of coming up here too. If he's got that kind of spirit of forgiveness and lack of judgment for his every human, every man, every woman, every in between, then I do think that that does sort of bias us towards.

He liked his reflection, which is I think where you're leading. Yeah. Eye contact with himself. That's actually where I landed as well. Ultimately, there is a self-confidence that I see that tips me towards, yes, hearing you talk it out. I think you've put into words things that I was struggling with, but I think you've tipped the balance in a way that I have more confidence with.

Yeah, so I, I agree. I think he likes his reflection. There's also great smile. You look at some of those pictures from the sixties and seventies when he is on [00:43:00] TV and. You know, he, he looks great. Yeah. It's definitely like that Nashville country boy smile that, that is like so handsome, you know? Yes. And has a certain kind of imagery to it.

Amit: Yeah. And he's confident as hell, no matter how much he's dying inside. A hundred percent the way he stands, the way he performs, it's, it's pure confidence. Totally.

Michael: Which makes the addictions sort of interesting because that, that is a tormented in inner life.

Amit: Oh yeah.

Michael: You know, but in terms of the appearance, I think he likes it too.

Okay. Next category, coffee cocktail, or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. So maybe a question of what drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them we are most curious about.

This was simple for me.

Amit: Okay, you go ahead.

Michael: Black coffee with a man in black.

Amit: Okay.

Michael: Yeah, I, I, I want to just talk like he's got a rhythm about who he is. I love his voice. You know, to go back to the first line of the obituary, the vocal [00:44:00] bedrock, his singing voice is great, but his speaking voice also just, I find it very soothing.

I find myself bringing more patience than I might otherwise have. To like, just listen to him talk. I don't know that I need to know the stories of the wild times, the friendships with Waylon Jennings, how he heard about Bob Dylan with the womanizing on the road, the ups and downs. I don't know that I really want to talk about.

God necessarily, although I'd be kind of interested in that because he is devout, but in a way that I do not find off putting and that in other conversations I might be a little threatened by his, this level of spirituality, I'm not, I think more than anything what I would want out of a black coffee conversation with a man in black.

Is to kind of come away understanding a truth about America. I know that sounds about America. Yeah. Okay. I know that sounds a little corny, but I think that there is something so of the soil and of the roots and like so thoroughly [00:45:00] American about who he is. I think it's no coincidence that his last album.

Last albums were, you know, with the American label, like in the best sense of the word, right? Because I think he is flawed and he is transparent about his flaws and I'd want the conversation to go there if we needed to. But there is also a redemptive element to your point about Second Mountain and him that he's always like striving for that is.

Sort of for me, woven in with my identity in, in so many ways, musically, nationally, and I, I guess I would just wanna soak that in and I wouldn't want any mind altering substance around that.

Amit: Do you think he could get into two-Way dialogue?

Michael: Yeah, actually, I think that there's give and take. I think he has curiosity about everybody.

I don't know what he would be interested in around me. I wouldn't presume

Amit: fishing probably,

Michael: maybe, although I think it'd actually be a little bit more interested in that. I think, you know, I could imagine having a talk with him about nature. That'd be really fun. I mean, and fishing is a vehicle that's, I was,

Amit: I was using that [00:46:00] as a jab, but there you go.

You, you're a man who knows nature well.

Michael: I think it is somewhere where he experiences a God of his understanding and I bet we'd connect around that. You know, I'm, it's doesn't come up much on this show, but I have a love of earth history. Yeah. And I think that he and I would actually find a lot of common ground around that.

So I don't know where it'd go, but it, it mostly, it would be just to soak it in.

Amit: Have you ever thought of Father Nature as your DJ name?

Michael: No.

Amit: Because you haven't thought about DJing.

Michael: Well be because there's enough patriarchy as it is. I think. I think, uh, mother got, oh, much better answer. Mother got the nature.

Okay. So yeah.

Amit: All right.

Michael: What about you? What did you go with here?

Amit: For my DJ name?

Michael: No, for

Amit: your coffee cocktail cannabis. Ah, yes. Okay. So, uh, it's cocktail, but I have a very, very, very different reason than anything I've ever done before. Oh, so do you like Field of Dreams? The movie, of course one of my favorite movies.

What was the voice coming from the Korn [00:47:00] Fields? Telling Kevin Costner to go find James Earl Jones.

Michael: If you build it, he will come.

Amit: No, that's to find Shoeless Joe Jackson.

Michael: Oh, I forget. Ease his pain.

Amit: Exactly.

Archival: Ease his pain. What? I'm sorry, what? I, I didn't understand. What? Ease his. Ease his pain. What?

Amit: That's kind of what I want to do with Johnny Cash.

I don't want the access in. I see an incredible life. But well, from the very beginning we said it's characterized by pain and Well, and he is already kind

Michael: of given

Amit: access.

Michael: Yeah. Right. I don't, I don't feel like we need that. I mean, I think that there are other people we bring to this show where it's like, I'm still curious.

I feel like he's generous of spirit that way.

Amit: Yeah. So I just wanna, I wanna get drinks with him and it's, it's probably straight whiskey and beers.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: And just be goofy. Just ease the man in black's pain.

Michael: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, he's got a sense of humor too. [00:48:00] I know he does, and I bet that's what you and him would connect over in this scenario.

I hope so. I think he'd find you funny. I, well, thank you. Yeah. I mean, I, I don't know how and around what, but I do think that he, like, he's ready to chuckle. Yeah. You know, and I

Amit: get, I get a lot out of that. Yeah. Of, of breaking people's. Spirit in the right way. Yeah. I get a lot of that out of, out of breaking people out of the wrong spirit, not breaking people's spirit.

I think it's both that it's a little both. Well, you, you break out of their spirit by breaking their spirit a little more. Yeah. Right. Yeah. You have to go down before you go up. Yeah. It's the, it's a story arc. Yeah. And that's really enjoyable for me. Yeah. And I think I could, I could help a guy like Johnny Cash feel just a little bit better for a few more hours.

What are you drinking? Uh, I'm thinking there's probably a bottle of wild Turkey poured in neatly. The bottle gets thrown against a concrete pillar every now and then. Yeah. Uh, and then just probably slamming back bottles or drafts of, I don't know, probably [00:49:00] pearl

Michael: I'd have, I have to say I like this scene.

You

Amit: better learn how to duck 'cause there's whiskey bottles flying everywhere. I get

Michael: it. I'll, I'll stand behind a, you know, plexiglass one way mirror and drinking black coffee by myself if I have to. But I like the idea of you and Johnny meeting each other. I think that would be like actually a great interaction.

You know, you and I connected early on it. Part of our friendship was our shared interest in country music. Yeah. Willie especially, I mean, Willie seems like your guy.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: I just like the idea of seeing you and. Johnny Cash knocking back Wild turkeys.

Amit: Yeah. Alright. I'll share my hip hop catalog with him too.

Michael: I bet

Amit: he'd be under it. He'd be way into it.

Michael: There's even, I've seen a case out there that Folsom Prison is like inspiration for early hip hop and sort of celebrating prison life. I don't know, it's a little bit of a stretch of an argument, but I, but I do think that gets back to this non-judgmental thing about him.

Amit: Yeah. And I think a, a celebration of the downtrodden too. Yeah. There's, there's a lot of parallels.

Michael: All right, Ahmed. We have arrived the Vander Beek, the final category named after James Vander Beak, who famously [00:50:00] said in varsity Blues, I don't want your life. Ahmed, you and I are now gonna work together to develop a response to James for why we would, in fact want this life.

How would you begin to lay out the case to James for why you. Could want this life.

Amit: I want to first respond to what you say is, 'cause what we're doing now that's different from maybe what we've done before. And what's very different from what we do in the first line of the obituary is now we look at process, we look at the experience of life.

And so my first response to James Vander beak would be. Johnny Cash got to let out his pain.

Michael: Yeah, that's exactly where I was going. He got to use his pain and the inevitability of pain.

Amit: Yes.

Michael: I, I, I think that's the thing that, you know, we want to go through life pain-free and it just doesn't work that way.

Amit: I don't think we do wanna go through life pain-free.

Michael: Well, I don't know. I think we have an idea in our head that we might want to go through life pain-free. I think certainly a lot. Of our behaviors as humans are designed to avoid pain, emotional, physical, spiritual, and [00:51:00] otherwise. Yes. And I think what gets complicated for artists is that pain can and often does lead to great art.

So I think one of the things you see with a lot of creatives is they fall into the trap of inviting more pain than is necessary because maybe some part of them believes that they have to in order to create great art. I'm scared of pain.

Amit: Mm-Hmm.

Michael: You know, um, but I also think it's inevitable.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: You were leading off with James.

This is how you deal with pain. No, I'm saying he got to let out his pain.

Amit: Especially if, if the idea of the Vander beak is frustration. Yeah. You know, it's, it's responding to frustration. It's like, look at this. Look at the way he was able to work it out and able to express it. Yeah. Right. We're not saying it's completely not in the bones still, but a lot of it's out there and it could have had a lot, lot worse endings.

Michael: I agree with that. And it wasn't a one-off. I mean, while there are peaks and troughs in his commercial success, his [00:52:00] interest in using music and art to release pain basically is present throughout his life. Mm-Hmm. Right. From the early hits. Through the sort of wayward loss of the seventies through unusual collaborations in the eighties with the Highwaymen and Bono and U2 to finally his, you know, sort of transcendent collaboration with Rick Rupert and the American recordings and the Hurt video, which, I mean, I watched that the other day, dude, that, that stands so powerful.

Oh my God,

Amit: you know, that is still the number one, is most streamed song. That

Michael: doesn't

Amit: surprise

Michael: me.

Amit: I guess generationally it makes sense.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: Okay. So the point you were making, so when I said he got to work out his pain and then you supplanted it by, but with what?

Michael: Not just once, but throughout the years and decades.

Amit: Yeah. Which also I think leads to, to the mountain thing. There's progress, there's each building and you couldn't really see it coming from the first mountain or the second mountain. You couldn't see the next mountain coming. Like he really did have these. Unexpected turns where [00:53:00] life did get better. Yeah, and I would say more meaningful too.

Finding more meaning as he went along.

Michael: I think so. I mean, even that quote words to live by success is having to worry about every damn thing except money.

Amit: Yes.

Michael: I mean, I, I feel like there is an upward staircase journey. You know, of emotional depths that he continues to plunge as well.

Amit: Yeah. So one of my concerns was him suffering alone.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: Right. Because he had these, these addictions, he obviously had just this inner felt pain that, that goes back to the, his, his brother and, and his relationship with his father. And you don't see like as much evidence of close friendships as we see with other people. You do have a very tight relationship with Billy Graham, as you mentioned, Bob Dylan.

I think him and Waylon were quite close, very tight. Yeah.

Michael: And Chris Christofferson.

Amit: But those were also different type of pain cures. Mm-Hmm. And I thought about it and I was like, I'm, I'm not sure that I could make the argument because he had to do so much alone suffering. But this is a man that feels deep love.

Right. The song [00:54:00] Ring of Fire is all about the burning desire of love. So he did as troublesome as it could be, as tempestuous tempestuous. Yeah. As it as it is at sometimes. He did rely deeply on love. And whether that's romantic spousal love or of children or in his case, deeply of, of God and specifically of, of Jesus, I think.

Yeah. Yeah. So he had love and he had faith. And the other thing I don't think that is an argument against him suffering alone is, is he had us, you know, basically that's the Johnny Cash story. It's like he just lets us suffer with him. Yeah. And we kind of wanna do that. Yeah. It's kind of a fun ride.

Because we think we're kind of being a badass as we do it, but really we're just kind of suffering along with Johnny. Yeah. And I think that's a hell of a way to go through it. 'cause you're bringing your fans in, but you're not bringing them down. Right. You're bringing them in and just, you know, essentially giving them a hug of pain, but it feels like a, a hug of togetherness.

Michael: He, he creates [00:55:00] permission to express more than, I think, especially men, but a lot of people are comfortable expressing. Yeah. To your point about. Tom Crier. Right. If he can cry, all of us can. Yeah. You know, and what a gift.

Amit: Yeah. So we, I mean, do you, do you have more to add? I don't. So what, what did we say? We said he got to let out pain.

Michael: He got to do it over the entirety of his life, essentially

Amit: in gradual increases. Correct. Yeah. And thirdly, he was not alone. He was not alone. Although he may have appeared. So, yeah. And so I think that's pretty good. So if I may say so James Vander beak. I'm Johnny Cash and you want my life.

Michael: All right. Before we close out, let's do the speed round. What episode does this remind you of? From our back catalog.

Amit: I feel embarrassed to say, but it really is John Prine. I'm embarrassed 'cause it's the same name and they're both kind of folk singers. Yeah. But the [00:56:00] whole final act is so similar as them putting out some of their best music in the last 10 years.

And the way that they were also misconstrued artists. They were just so deep. Yeah. So incredibly deep, but don't appear So on the surface,

Michael: uh, I was gonna go with Betty White for just a great fourth quarter run, you know? Yeah. And, and, and like, what a way to end it with vitality and with like, age is good. I think Betty White is my nomination for a back catalog episode to listen to.

Archival: Okay.

Michael: And before we finally close out here is a little teaser for the next episode of Famous and Gravy. He portrayed a hapless self-deprecating. Every man slapped around by life and searching in vain for acceptance. You know, Michael, I couldn't tell you a single name even

Archival: if I tried.

Michael: Okay. Famous and gravy listeners, we love hearing from you.

If you wanna reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz. [00:57:00] Email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. Check out our show notes where we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. Famous and Gravy is created and Co-hosted by Amit Kaur and me, Michael Osborne.

Megan Palmer produced this episode. Thanks as always to Kevin Strang for original music.