085 More Respect transcript (Rodney Dangerfield)

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Amit: [00:00:00] This is famous and gravy biographies from a different point of view. Now the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2004, age 82. His big break came in 1967 when at age 44 and relatively unknown. He won a spot on the Ed Sullivan show,

Friend: ed Sullivan, um, 82 years old. Ed Sullivan, not George Burns of it, not

Michael: George Burns, but I [00:00:30] do love that guess after a particularly humiliating experience at a Catskills hotel in the early 1950s.

He quit show business. The hiatus lasted for more than a dozen years, during which he began businesses as a paint salesman and a house painter.

Friend: Lenny Bruce died in the sixties. Um, gimme another clue.

Michael: On stage, he portrayed a hapless self-deprecating. Every man slapped around by life and searching in vain for acceptance.

Friend: [00:01:00] Oh, oh, oh. Um, oh gosh. Um, comedian, right? Um, the.

Michael: Archie Bunker, not the actor who played Archie Bunker. That's okay. All right. In 1969, he opened his own comedy club in New York, and he was notorious for hosting young comedian specials.

Friend: Oh, um, any mercy? Still alive? Any mercy? Oh, Richard Pryor.

Michael: Not Richard Pryor.

Oh, so close. All right. His first comedy album [00:01:30] won a Grammy in 1981. It was called No Respect.

Friend: No Respect. Oh. Oh, oh, oh. Uh, Rodney Dangerfield.

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Rodney Dangerfield.

Friend: Ah.

Archival: How I first happen to start with no respect was I, uh, I actually felt I wasn't getting anything. There's a lot of people doing life. And I said what I felt, and one day I was going to an elevator and uh, I was gonna the third floor and the other operator looked at me and he said, basement. And I said, [00:02:00] oh, you know, and I, that night I went over a friend of mine's place, George Schultz, he owns a coffee house and sheep said Bay called Pips.

And I told the joke on the floor and they laughed at it. I said, look, get no respect. And I just wrote hundreds of new jokes on the, uh, same premise, and I found out that, uh, it's something everyone is, uh, looking for. As a matter of fact, eventual goal eventually, if possible, is to have a course taught respect in public schools, and then in perhaps two or three generations you could eliminate the majority of prejudice in the country who know what you started it all in the club.

Thank,[00:02:30]

Michael: welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And I'm Amit Kapur. And on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century. And we present a new narrative. Most biographies focus on legacies and accomplishments, but we are interested in the journey, the process, the experiences. What didn't we know?

What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today? Rodney [00:03:00] Dangerfield died 2004, age 82. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Rodney Dangerfield, the punchy goggle eye comedian whose fidgety delivery and sad sack catchphrase, I don't get no respect, brought him cult status and eventually wider fame.

Died yesterday in a Los Angeles hospital. He was 82. Your initial thoughts.

Amit: I mean, the man's already self-deprecating. Why? [00:03:30] Like point out these weak features of him.

Michael: Oh, interesting. You're coming out the gates with the criticism. I loved this one. Did you? Oh, my initial reaction was like, I think this is really great.

Okay. Let me start with the positives. Um, start with the prosecution please. I love the. Visuals here. Punchy gogoli. That plants a mind's eye picture very quickly and even fidgety delivery. Okay? Sad sack catchphrase. I don't get no respect. They had to get that in there. And more than anything, what I really like is [00:04:00] the story brought him cult status and eventually wider fame.

Amit: Adam, with you completely, I like the storyline a lot.

Michael: Let me spend another minute on that. Cold status. Is very cool. You know, for somebody who we're calling Sad Sack and Goggle Eye.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: And then I kind of like the ambiguity of how they dealt with wider fame because he is a comedian's comedian. We're gonna get into his legacy and importance in the world of standup.

But he also had movie success. He also had a lot of TV [00:04:30] success with Carson. So let's call it wider fame. I don't think it's a cop ad. I think it's like right on the money.

Amit: I dig that too. Like I, I like wider fame because it's the, the thing you left out also was the comedy club and how big and influential that was.

Michael: Totally right. And so it's like, you can imagine them writing this obituary and saying, do we mention Caddy Shack? Do we mention back to school? Or he is acting at all. Do we mention Carson? Do we mention that he had a club? All of it. And they're just like, no, it's just wider fame. And it started in a kind of cult status and became.[00:05:00]

Bigger

Amit: in that. Yeah, we're on the same page. Just seemed like a little too many adjectives that were negatively slanted, but that's what the man builts his career on. Do you think it's undignified? I think it's a little too much. You go Ponche Goggle. ied. Fidgety and sad. Zach, I. Yeah. Okay. That's a But why?

Why four? Come on.

Michael: I think that was the thing we know him for. They are speaking to a character he played, not who he really was. Right. The first line is a, what do you know him for? Let me just remind you what he looks like. [00:05:30] Remind you of what his demeanor was and remind you of the character he played and that character frankly extends into all those things we were just talking about.

Comic. Actor, TV guest and so forth. So I think this is an excellent person. So let, so lemme ask this then. So

Amit: is it necessary to say Ponche Goggle died and fidgety in order to paint the entirety of the picture of who Rodney Dangerfield was? Well, I

Michael: don't think it's just about painting the picture. I think it's also hinting at the humor.

He's kind of funny looking to quote Fargo fidgety, I think is also [00:06:00] like, and you may, he had a kind of nervous energy wiping the brow and sweating all the time. Yeah. And all of this is to set up. I don't get no respect. So I mean, these are all external descriptions of the visual of him and all of it, I think brings him to life, so to speak.

They usually don't spend that much time describing somebody's physical appearance. And I actually think it's really appropriate here because he's kind of cartoonish.

Amit: Oh, totally. He's definitively cartoonish

Michael: because

Amit: of that. It justifies the [00:06:30] verbiage. Yeah. So I'm with you on the work. It does. It is just one too many for me.

Michael: You are a little, it's just a little bit insulted on Rodney's

Amit: behalf. Yeah. A little bit of heart bleeding, I think.

Michael: But should it have been just less words or should it have been a different idea? I don't quite understand. Your criticism is, it just should have just been less

Amit: words. It's a little less piling.

I don't think a different angle is appropriate. I think you, you said it very well that this is the character that he brought forward, and this is the entirety of his fame and how he influenced culture. Yeah. And so it's important. It's just a little much. Well, so do you have your [00:07:00] score? Yeah. All right.

What are you going? Even five.

Michael: Oh, wow.

Amit: Yeah. Significantly lower than I would've gone. I can tell by our initial reactions. Storyline was good. Just just one too many punches. I

Michael: flirted with a 10 here. Whoa. Yeah. I'm gonna go

Amit: nine. You sad

Michael: sack

Amit: Fucking malicious.

Michael: Yes. This, this is what's gonna be written about me now.

Yeah. I mean, I'm gonna go nine for one tiny ding. Okay. One thing it does lack is there's nothing in here about his. Stepping away and [00:07:30] then coming back to entertainment. Yes. And that's, to me such a big part of the Rodney Dangerfield story. This first line does not get me excited to read the rest of the obituary.

The first line of the obit should be, here's what you know them for, but it should also be, and don't you wanna learn more? And I'm not sure this is doing much work hooking me into the rest of the story and it is a good story. I'm docking one point for that. Otherwise, I think this is perfect.

Amit: So you just want an element of mystery.

Michael: Intrigue. Yeah. Something that's got me a little bit more bought in [00:08:00] on who is this guy? It's getting most of the way there, but it also doesn't quite really get his impact. Yeah. You know, and his stature in the history of standup comedy, which in 2004 when he died at that point, is very well established.

Amit: Yes. Right. Well, the good news is we're gonna spend a lot of time on it.

Michael: Yeah. So in that sense it could do a little bit more. But otherwise, I think this is an awesome one. Okay. Five is really low. We're working nine to five. Alright. That is not, that is not very low. All right. Category two, five things I love about you here, Amin and I develop a list [00:08:30] of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived you lead.

Amit: So number one, I've gotta go the pause, what you alluded to and was in the quiz. I haven't seen a similar story. I. Elsewhere in, in American history of somebody that completely steps away from the profession for 12 years as Rodney Dangerfield is.

Michael: Yeah. You should lay out what happened. Yeah.

Amit: The backstory is he, he tried to make it in comedy through his twenties, had flirted with minor successes, but also some bigger [00:09:00] failures, and he just stepped away from the business for 12 years of roughly age.

28 to 41. Yeah. And sold aluminum siding. Yeah, was his primary business.

Archival: So you got married and got married and, and for while you were like a salesman and stuff. This is inspirational. What kinda salesman was he? I've always heard of that. He was a, I sold aluminum siding, right? Aluminum siding. I painted houses and stuff like that.

Yeah, I mean, and is aluminum siding the ugliest crap in the world or what? And how do you

Friend: get people to buy that? I would say that there were jobs

Archival: up there. Up still up there 20 years later. Really? Do you have to go back out of those? Did [00:09:30] my house. They don't even care that you're a comic. They just, there's many funny stories I can tell you about that.

Where did you sell the aluminum side? I was in Englewood, New Jersey for 10 years. Did you want. Imagine. I'll tell you something. So I saw people at Job. You understand that Saturday, Sunday, they're watching Ed Sullivan and they see me walk out a different name. Wow. My name Jack Roy, the real name sold him siding.

Then they see Rodney Dansville. So they said, she says to the mechanic is Mr. Roy's. Oh, so and show business? Yeah. He said, yeah. He just sat the aside, you know? Wow. On [00:10:00] the side. Ed Sullivan. Yeah, ed Sullivan's the side gig. It's the side gig. So even when you were siding, so even when you were back doing Ed Sullivan, you were still selling the aluminum siding and people would tune in and see their aluminum siding guy on Ed Sullivan.

That's right. That had to be, that's amazing. That had to be amazing. Bit weird. And Sullivan, let me announce it to anybody here on aluminum. I'd be happy to do it. Is that

Amit: right? I absolutely. Absolutely love that comeback. Knowing that there is a second chance, there's a third chance with that big of a gap as [00:10:30] well as completely sidestepping.

Yeah, there's one thing to be slogging, but there's one thing to go try another life, realize it's not for you, comeback and kill it.

Michael: I couldn't agree more, and it's something that gets mentioned a lot when people tell the story of Rodney Dangerfield, but it almost doesn't get quite enough attention. He's still in those 12 years.

Writing jokes. He is, he had this

Amit: famous duffle bag. Yeah. That he would like write jokes and put 'em in the duffle bag for like, if he's ready again.

Michael: I also like that it happened in his forties. This reminded me a little [00:11:00] bit of the Alan Rickman episode where Alan Rickman doesn't become successful until Die Hard, where I forget exactly what he is, but he's, he's

Amit: 39 or 40.

Yeah,

Michael: he, he is over, I think he is over 40. Kenny Rogers also had a sort of like success in his forties. I really like that story because I. Actually think at that point in life that you're just a little bit more well equipped to handle success, to understand it and to know like, this is my calling. You know, I'm gonna make the move for it now or never.

I love that about Rodney Dangerfield. [00:11:30] Okay. Should I go number two? Uhhuh. Alright, this is a little corny sounding 'cause this is a very in vogue phrase, but I wrote Create spaces. Create spaces. Okay. Now this is a phrase you hear a lot. Create space for safe conversations or create space for acceptance.

Your inner

Amit: Brene Brown.

Michael: Coming back a little bit, this comes out in a few different places. One, he says in his autobiography, there were two times in my life where people said, you are absolutely crazy. One is when he decided to go back into comedy in his forties and two is when he decided [00:12:00] to. Start his own nightclub in 1969.

Like it's a very risky business. He has to raise a ton of money and borrow a ton of money. And the whole reason he does it is so that he doesn't have to go on the tour and he can be around for his family. Yeah. So he can have a home club to play at. Exactly. And so he creates Dangerfield, the nightclub through that.

He winds up becoming something of, I don't know if you wanna say talent scout, but certainly mentor to other comics. Mm-Hmm. The number of people for whom he had a. Enormous role to play in their career is [00:12:30] astonishing. Sam Kennison, Jim Carey, Jerry Seinfeld, Bob Sage, Jeff Foxworthy, Roseanne, Tim Allen, Louis Anderson, Chris Rock, Andrew Dice, clay, and that's just like a small sampling, like he became the guy who was championing young comics.

This man created a whole generation of comics. I think part of the reason I wanted to say create spaces is that I find his humor. Pretty good, but not great. So I was trying to think of like, what about him is innovative, you know? And I do think that no [00:13:00] respect as a kind of prompt to create jokes is really smart.

And in that way he kind of creates a way of thinking about comedy that others. Younger than him innovate on top of. So I think he creates room for a whole comedy movement. And he also creates a literal nightclub for a comedy scene. So create spaces.

Amit: Great. I think that is absolutely perfect for what I wanna say for number three.

I think he's a loneliness, antidote. And this is very much in the vein of creating spaces. So this talks about his whole [00:13:30] self-deprecating approach to comedy and the, I get no respect routine. It was pretty unusual when he came out with it. And still not that common, you know, comedy is a little more. Self boasting, but with self-deprecation in it never is it a hundred percent self-deprecation.

And what I see in Rodney Dangerfield is he's expressing everybody else's like inner pain in a funny way. Yeah. So it just, you know, comedy is just our struggles with pride. Well, it's just our struggles with pride man versus himself, whatever

Michael: it is. [00:14:00] Well, pride and validation. I mean this whole no respect thing actually sounds so corny and sticky, but it's actually profound.

Like we want respect in life. Correct. Right. And, and, and in that way he is embodying a kind of global need of the human condition.

Amit: Yeah, but it's more, it's more what that actually connects is with how that actually connects with an individual person or individual audience. Is that somebody going up there and explaining a struggle, however funny they may phrase, it allows an audience member to kind of feel seen, yes, that there is, there is a shared [00:14:30] experience of, oh, somebody else is imperfect and they're being vulnerable and I don't feel quite as bad about my own.

Thought patterns or my own perceptions or my own frustration, totally. They described him. There was this New York Times article is that he was not only a jester but a guru and ombudsman to the abused, downtrodden, put upon and ignored in a world long gone mad. That takes in almost everybody, everybody can get into.

No respect.

Michael: This is more Johnny Cash-like than I realized to hear you put that. It [00:15:00] is, but it's

Amit: a different way. There's one thing to do it through guitar strings and a deep voice, and there's another way to do it through a nervous twitch. And laughing. Yeah. And inviting people in and making 'em feel less alone.

Michael: So yeah, that's all I was gonna say that this relates to my second point when I was saying it was create space for other comedians and for other artists. You are saying for audiences

Amit: completely in this era of the sixties and seventies, that's very different from what we have now with. Podcasts and everybody being open about their feelings or as well as comedians going into these long [00:15:30] narration about problems in their life.

This was way, way, way, way, way different in the sixties and seventies. Yes. To be this open and in this vulnerable about your pain.

Michael: Yeah. That does dovetail

Amit: wonderfully.

Michael: Okay. Should I go number four? Mm-Hmm. And this a little simpler. Marijuana champion, marijuana champion. I love what a pothead he is. I mean this for me, tremendous.

So he wanted to call his book. He ended up calling his autobiography. It's not Easy being me, A lifetime of No respect, but plenty of sex and drugs. The book's original title was My Love Affair with [00:16:00] Marijuana. Yeah, I mean he, he found a tremendous. Psychic relief in pot smoking. Yes. And he was very early on with having a medical marijuana license.

Just

Amit: like the only button in the country that had one.

Michael: Exactly. I guess I like it when marijuana works for people, you know, like there's abuse and then there is actually a. Medical, you know, mental health kind of service that pot can do. And Rodney Dangerfield, it just makes me smile that he got such relief from marijuana, so much so [00:16:30] that there's like stories about him, you know, as his health is failing, like lighting up in the, not the er, the, uh.

Operating room and not just the operating room. I think it was like intensive care. Okay. Like he's like, you know, and he has a story in his book about like lighting up in like airport lounges and a cop coming over. He is like, oh shit, I'm in trouble. And the cop just wanted an autograph. Yeah. Yeah. And I, I love his advocacy for like, how great marijuana can be and how necessary it's.

Amit: Yeah. And it's good. I mean, it's a good part of the de-stigmatization story of marijuana. 'cause he's not [00:17:00] Jerry Garcia. He's not Jack Nicholson. He's your every guy that has struggles with neurosis.

Michael: Totally. Uh, yeah, and, and we will get more into that, I'm sure. But yeah, I love what a pothead he is. All right.

What do you got for number five?

Amit: Um, number five, he made old look fun. Mm. And you and I are big on this. Yeah. It's like we got issues with this idolization of, of youth as the best time of your life. Yes. Right. But Rodney Dangerfield explicitly made getting older look fun. Yeah. It's like he's, he made your fifties look like so much fun.

He made your sixties look [00:17:30] like so much fun. And your seventies, he's going around in a bathrobe and the older it gets, it seems like the more fun he is having. Yeah. Just. Being himself and being free and being unrestricted. I just love that. Yeah. I love that. Older is better and older actually seems more fun and in a very, very strange way, seems more unrestricted.

Mm-hmm. We're so conditioned to think that getting older just means more restrictions and the less that you can do with your body and the fewer places you can go, or the more you like, can't say [00:18:00] embarrassing things, and he was the exact opposite of that.

Michael: Yeah, there was one of my favorite Rodney Dangerfield moments.

So are you aware of the story of when he's honored on Jay Leno's Tonight Show and Jim Carrey comes out as a surprise guest when he has a heart attack? Well, he has a heart attack the next day, I think, on his 80th birthday, and he asked the doctor in the emergency room who gave me this, you know? Yeah.

Which is. Uh, I love that joke. And like, one more thing on the Jim Carrey thing, he, it's not like he had a small role in Jim Carrey's [00:18:30] career. Oh,

Amit: potentially a hundred percent responsible for,

Michael: for Jim Carrey's continued stay at Itness. Right. That Jim Carrey was this impressionist, and then he wanted to be more himself and he bombed for two years.

And Rodney kept saying, yeah, I want you to be my opener. And kept him on the road. Yeah, like the, the love between them agree was really tremendous. He was always there

Archival: for me, always supported me even when I was experimenting. And no one knew what the hell I was doing. He was there for me. He still hired me.

He sat in the wings with his balls hanging out of his, you know, robe on the [00:19:00] side of the stage, just howling with laughter. And I'd get off and he'd say, man, they're looking at you like you're from another fucking planet.

Michael: Yeah, and I mean, I'm not sure if we'll be able to do it justice in this conversation, but you know, already kind of mentioned the, the number of comics for whom they owe their careers to Rodney Dangerfield.

It's not even necessarily people who owe their careers to 'em. It was also just helpful along the way for so many people who star was already rising. Okay, so let's recap number one. You said the pause [00:19:30] number two, I said create spaces number three. Antidote to loneliness. That's really good. Number four. Uh, I said marijuana champion and number five, made old look fun.

Made old look fun. Okay, next category one love. In this category, we each choose one word or phrase that characterizes their loving relationships. Before we select our word or phrases though, we review the family life data. This is interesting. So. Joyce Enig. This is Rodney's first marriage from 1951 to [00:20:00] 1961.

Rodney was 30. They divorced when he was 40. He remarries Joyce again in 1963. Rodney is 42 and they divorce again in 1970 when Rodney is 49. She dies in 77. I think She is the mother of both of his children. One boy, one girl. And it sort of sounded like in both cases got married to quote unquote do the right thing.

Yes. But unusual to marry, divorce and remarry the same woman and then divorce again. [00:20:30] Yeah. I knew a guy that did that. Really? Yeah. Oh wow. Okay. And then second marriage, Joan Child, 1993 to 2004. Rodney marries Joan at age 72. She's about 30, so significantly younger, and they're together until he dies at age 82.

This seems very well verified that I thought I heard somebody put it this way. This seemed like a quote unquote classic gold digger situation. Yes. And it's not that, that, while she is a young, attractive blonde woman, 32 years younger than Rodney, [00:21:00] the. Compatibility they had by all accounts is tremendous.

So, you know, yes. She made out well, in a sense, and she's interesting background. I mean, she's Mormon and from a very conservative family. You know, her dad, after the initial shock, end up, ends up becoming friends with Rodney. Yeah. So it's a little bit like, uh, Kenny Rogers last, uh, marriage. Correct. And she was a florist too.

Florist, I gotta say. It's the one nice relationship in his life. You know, you dig into the family life and. [00:21:30] There's a lot of pain in Rodney Dangerfield's interpersonal

Amit: life. Definitely. Definitely in his younger formative years. Lots of abuse, if not directly, a lot of indirect abuse.

Michael: Yeah. Let's just go ahead and talk a little bit about his upbringing.

So basically his. Dad marries his mother at a young age, then he runs out on the family and he's a vaudeville figure and he's not around. His mother is, it just sounds like a thoroughly cold woman and probably suffering from some sort of, you know, mental health condition. Oh, no

Amit: [00:22:00] doubt. It seems, has all the signs,

Michael: but you Right.

But so it's, it's not abuse, like physical abuse, it's abuse through neglect. Never hugged him, never kissed him, never praised him in, in any way, shape or form. And he also seems like a sensitive soul. Who needed some of that. Yes. And so he is sort of left to fend for himself for much of his childhood. Some sort of deep, painful void is created in Rodney Dangerfield at a very young age.

Yeah. And if you're looking for a, gosh, where did this No respect, [00:22:30] sad sack, goggle light figure come from? It's not a deep search. You find it pretty quickly. Right.

Amit: And that the saddest story within that was the, the kissing of older men. Yeah. You see that, that he would let, he would let older men kiss him for a nickel.

Oh, there was one

Michael: man who would Yeah, in the neighborhood. 'cause he was just sort of roaming free in the neighborhood. There was one man who, I mean, I'd call this sexual abuse, but he, he talks about this in his biography and describes himself as a male prostitute. So he sort of trying to make light of.

Light of it as always.

Amit: Yeah. But let's, let's, I mean, he's what, six or seven years [00:23:00] old? We're not

Michael: Yeah. This is painful shit. Yeah, yeah. No, and it's, it leaves a lasting trauma. Uh, there's no question. And it's, and it's born out of a. Home life that has all this neglect around it. The thing is, while he is critical of his mother and his autobiography, he's not not defending her either.

You also see this a little bit with his children. It's really hard to understand what his relationship with his kids are as they get older. It does sound troubled, but he doesn't throw anybody under the bus, and even his first wife is sort of like, oh, she's [00:23:30] struggling. And it does sound like when they got married the second time, she was suffering from.

Debilitating arthritis. He had to take a bigger role in being the daddy on the spot, which is part of the reason he opens the nightclub in the first place. So my word was. Actually loyal and it's sort of a tragic loyalty, but I think that there is a sense of obligation of like, I want to be there for people.

Even if he was never quite handed the tools to do it. I admire him for it, but this is what stuck out to me about the Rodney Dangerfield story. I think he struggles with love [00:24:00] and I think that that's true for out his life. I think he does find a, a soulmate of sorts and a marriage that he's happy in, but I do think that there's a, an emotional distance that takes root at a very young age that.

Not sure how much he ever is able to overcome that.

Amit: Yeah, so my phrase was life imitates art. Oh. So specifically around the marriages and the love is that he was compelled to try to do the right thing, but it was not rightfully him, meaning it wasn't his inner self. He [00:24:30] sort of had this conflict of being a, a free.

Person a goofball and doing the right thing of staying married and being a home man. It felt like it was two conflicting forces, and it doesn't have to be to Rodney. It was like, okay, I can't be happy and be a home body. That's the saddest of all, is that he couldn't find a way to be happy without having first had the outward success and until he had the outward.

Success. Only then could he grow more [00:25:00] into himself. Yeah. And that's his whole shtick. That's his whole routine is that this person that doesn't get what he wants, but he finally did, like you said, his final marriage with a huge age gap does not seem like a gold digging marriage. It actually seems like, uh, adjoining of spirits.

And maybe it's just somebody like Rodney, you know, that's, that's somebody 40 years younger with him is. Who he's going to connect with because he is that type of person. And I could say the exact reverse could be true for an older woman too. Sure. And so, yeah. Life [00:25:30] imitates art.

Michael: I'm good with that. I don't find his story all that complicated in a way.

He talks a lot about where did he experience joy? Very much on stage. You know, not even in the movies. He found movies tedious, having to do take after take, but on stage he felt a joy. And it does look like the second family of the sort of comedian tribe wants to. Pour into him in a way because they see that and understand that void and he is sort of the ambassador for that kind of pain for a whole generation of [00:26:00] comics.

How much joy he ever experienced is not clear to me though. 'cause it does seem like he was in a lot of inner turmoil and conflicted for a lot of his life. Your heart goes out to the guy. Right. I just wanna say one more thing on this. It reminded me a little bit of the very first episode we did of the show, Robin Leach.

Only in that, there's a kind of big fucking joke Yeah. Around all of this, right? That if there's one sort of truth that Rodney arrives at as a human who's on a, you know, [00:26:30] spiritual journey, it's like life may be one big cosmic joke. And I, you and I, I think, are very interested in other ways of exploring spirituality and I'm, I'm here for it, but I'm also holding open the door that maybe it's just a big cosmic joke.

Amit: Yeah. But if you start at the point of just big joke, that's when you, that's all the bigger canvas to create meaning,

Michael: yeah, I know it's an unlock in a way. Or it could be, you know, and it was for him. Okay. Category three. Yep. Net worth here. Ahed and I will write down our numbers ahead of time. We'll look up the net worth [00:27:00] value in real time and the.

Person closest to the number will explain their reasoning. Finally, we will place Rodney Dangerfield on the famous eng gravy net worth leaderboard. Okay, Ahmed Kippur wrote down 30 million.

Amit: Michael Osborne wrote down 45 million.

Michael: The correct answer is 20 million.

Amit: Ah, thought it was a little bit over.

Michael: Yep. Uh, you win.

Amit: I win. Uh, I, I wrestled with 20 for a while.

Michael: Did you, I mean, I, [00:27:30] I guess the reason I went high is that there is Hollywood movie Success where he has the writer's credits, and it sounded like the club venture was long-term successful.

Amit: Yeah, so I, I also thought I went high and I did a little bit. I did 25 versus 20, so movies were not his.

Thing.

Archival: Yeah,

Amit: he was a stage guy. That's where he got most of his money. Even Caddy Shack, his breakthrough movie got paid $35,000 for, and he said it cost him $150,000. Yeah. He lost money by being

Michael: in Caddy Shack. Yeah. '

Amit: cause [00:28:00] it made, it took two months to make and he was otherwise making a hundred thousand a month.

By performing in Vegas clubs. So he was earning all of his cash and you know, we can round that up to around a million or so in the early eighties through live performance. You churn through that cash a lot. You know, it's not extended royalties. I don't even think he got royalties from Caddy Shack. Yeah.

Back to school. Arguably really his only like big cinema success. Yeah. And it was huge. It did earn $90 million. He had writing credits, producing credits and all of that. I don't think [00:28:30] it's getting replayed so much towards 2004 and to where his death in his final estate established

Michael: great movie, a established little dated, established,

Archival: there will be an additional springboard installed for melons Die the triple Lindy.

Is that hard? That's impossible.

Amit: I think he did very well for the type of profession that he was in at the time.

Michael: Yeah, I think I'm very happy with that number 'cause there is a blue collar element to Rodney Dangerfield. Mm-Hmm. And. If he were north of 50 [00:29:00] million, that kind of puts him in a different category in my mind.

Yeah. So I'm actually kind of happy that it was 20 million because that's plenty of money that is obviously successful, but it's a number that communicates that money is not exactly the point. Correct.

Amit: Yeah. So on the, the famous mc Gravy leaderboard, that puts him square in the middle square at the 50% mark.

So interesting. So he is in a, Ooh, how many people is this? He is in a one, two. Uh, A seven way or now an eight way tie for 35th place at 20 million. Some of [00:29:30] his contemporaries, Gary Shand Link, Tom Wolf, gene Wilder, Eddie Money, Sidney Poitier. So Rodney Dangerfield had slightly less net worth and say Kerry Fisher, bill Paxton, who had 25 million and slightly better than Alan Rickman, who ended with 16 million.

Michael: That feels about right. Yeah. Okay. Next category. Little Lebowski, urban Achievers.

Archival: They're the little Lebowski, urban Achievers. Said. Yeah. The achievers, yes. And proud. We are, of all of them

Michael: in this category, we choose a trophy and award, a cameo and impersonation, [00:30:00] or any form of a hat tip that we wanna bring into the conversation.

What do you have here?

Amit: I've got impersonation. Oh one Michael Bolton. Yeah. Do

Archival: you know where I'm going with

Amit: this? I do, yes.

Archival: I celebrate the guy's entire catalog.

Amit: So Michael Bolton in the 1997 movie Meet Wally Sparks, which Ronnie Dangerfield is a talk show host a bit of a Howard Stern type who is sort of grifting his way, uh, around and makes.

His way into to staying and going to parties at the Governor's [00:30:30] mansion. Michael Bolton plays himself and encounters Rodney Dangerfield. Wally Sparks at uh, a party at the Governor's mansion and greets him with an impression of Rodney Dangerfield.

Archival: You know, I tell you though, you know, I went out with this girl last week.

She was so ugly. I took her to the beach. They wanted to know what I used for bait,

Michael: and the two of them go on to form a friendship. The,

Amit: well, the friendship was before that, and that's part of why I loved this impersonation is, is one, it's, it's Michael Bolton, which is just [00:31:00] funny. Yeah. To consider Michael Bolton doing a Rodney Dangerfield impression.

Michael Bolton is a lot funnier than you think.

Michael: Yeah, I agree with that. I agree with that. And a lot more

Amit: athletic than you think. Michael Bolton well, well rounded individual here.

Michael: I, I, he's been unfairly ridiculed by the movie office space and which is permanently imprinted in our minds. You know, there's nothing

Archival: wrong with that name.

There was nothing wrong with it until I was about 12 years old. And that no Talent Ask Clown became famous and started winning Grammys.

Amit: Yeah. But the second thing is because of, of the realness of this friendship and the imitation. So [00:31:30] I think it started back, uh, Michael Bolton sang one of the songs that was in school, back to school in 1986, and then they formed a little bit of a friendship.

But Michael Bolton started doing these impressions of Rodney Dangerfield whenever he went on Carson. And Rodney called him up. Oh really? I didn't see that. And Rodney called him up and was like, you know, quit doing these impressions of me there. Let's, let's do 'em somewhere else. And invites him to come on the movie of Meet Wally Sparks and do an impression of him.

Michael: Michael Bolton was scheduled to sing at his funeral and [00:32:00] was too choke. Too joke choke up. Yeah.

Amit: I mean that is such a weird picture to think of. Rodney Dangerfield's pallbearers. 'cause it's people like Adam Sandler, Rob Schneider, Jim Carrey. And Michael Bolton. Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. And I, I, a little bit of, uh, who was it?

Was it John Mayer and Bob s

Amit: It's got a lot of that. Yeah. A lot of that flavor. It like

Michael: that sort of unusual friendship. A little bit. Multi-generational. Two people you wouldn't expect to be sitting next to each other who find this commonality. I love those kinds of friendships. And to cap it off

Amit: with the impersonation, that's my [00:32:30] achiever.

Very good one. All right.

Michael: My little Lebowski urban achiever, are you aware of the Rodney Dangerfield Institute at the Los Angeles Community College? I'm not, it claims to be the only standup institute in a community college anywhere in the country. Wow. They are teaching standup comedy here, and here's why I love it.

Community college, I have such warm feelings towards community colleges. I think I've told you this. Before I became a scientist, I did all of my physics, chemistry, and calculus at [00:33:00] community college and therefore preserved my GPA. So I will always be like community colleges can serve a great service to literally communities.

In la Think of how many people are like, man, I wanna break into the entertainment industry and need training. This actually exists at Los Angeles Community College and it's named after him. Sounds like they're training aspiring comics. That's great. Isn't that awesome? Yeah. It's also like it's, it gets.

Back to the blue collar thing with Rodney Dangerfield. Right. I mean the fact that he [00:33:30] not only took a 12 year hi hiatus, but was doing manual labor, aluminum siding on houses. You know, we are so divided in terms of manual labor and knowledge workers and American economy nowadays that I love that there are still pathways by which, you know, blue collar folks can find their way into the entertainment industry.

Amit: Yeah, I think that's a separation that I really like. 'cause most comedy clubs or many comedy club are. Do offer standup courses like a six or eight week course of an, an intro of, of how to do [00:34:00] standup. I've taken one before. Yeah. And they're very good, but it's a mirror demographic. Right? A lot of people, everyone around there is sort of same say with socioeconomic similar kind of phase in in life, but it being in a community college opens it up to a completely different.

World. And that's, I love that.

Michael: And the, I'll say one more thing about this. Something that I love about standup comedy is the purity of the art form. You don't don't need to know how to play an instrument. You don't necessarily have to be attractive. You don't necessarily have to have a strong voice. It's [00:34:30] so primal in terms of like all you need to do.

Is get up on stage and try and make people laugh. That's no easy task, right? It looks terrifying and you have to be willing to accept a tremendous amount of rejection, but it is something anybody can do.

Amit: It's funny you said you don't have to be attractive. I completely disagree with that. You either have to be attractive or you have to own your appearance,

Michael: but it is sort

Amit: of.

Democratic as an art form? I, I think it's, it's more about presence than, than you think. Oh, yeah, sure.

Michael: I, no, no, no. I, I [00:35:00] think that there's such a thing as natural talent, and I think that being present and how you present matters, I'm just saying anybody can do it the same way anybody can do a podcast. Are we actually disagreeing on this?

Amit: I am saying appearance is, I think, a bigger factor than you realize in standard comedy. I'm not saying it doesn't matter, I think it matters just as much in comedy as it does in rock and roll.

Michael: Oh, I disagree with that. I, I, I, I totally disagree with that, and I'm not saying that you have

Amit: to be attractive and look like a rock star.

Clearly, when we're doing an episode about Rodney Dangerfield, that's not what we're talking about. Right. But you really have to [00:35:30] own your appearance and your appearance needs. To match your cadence and your content

Michael: a hundred percent. But what you are talking about is developing natural skills, and that I think exists in any and all art forms.

All I'm saying is you don't have to buy equipment. Like the investment can just be a, a, a personality investment.

Amit: Yeah. A notebook and some time Totally. Is really totally

Michael: right. And that's, that's the only point I'm making. All other things being equal, it's a fairly open playing field for anybody who wants to give it a go.

Yeah. Whether or not they're any good at it, I think is a. Totally [00:36:00] different question.

Amit: Yeah. And there there is a purity and a beauty in that sort of analog beginning of it.

Michael: That's what I mean. And I love that it exists at a community college. Yeah. Okay. Category six words to live by in this category, we choose a quote.

These are either words that came out of this person's mouth, or it was something that was said about them that resonated for us in a certain way. You want me to go or you wanna go?

Amit: I'll go. There goes the neighborhood. Oh, do you know why I bring that up? I do not. It is on Rodney Dangerfield's headstone.

Really? He is buried in, uh, [00:36:30] outside of LA and it says Rodney Dangerfield died 2004. There goes the neighborhood. Wow. He did a, he essentially did a bit at death by putting that there. He made that joke when he bought the. Plot is like, I'm gonna get this cemetery plot and there goes the neighborhood. Yeah.

But it was, oh, Rodney. Yeah. You know, it's such the outsider's way in. Yeah. And, and that's, that was his bit, that was also so much of him. Mm-Hmm. You know, to go back to the first line of the obituary of Ponche and Sad, sad, but [00:37:00] it's an outsider making it in, you know, and in his movies and Caddy Shack, that was exactly his character and back to school, it's all of just.

Anybody can kind of go in and disrupt things. A kind of barging

Michael: in sort of thing. Yeah. And there goes

Amit: the neighborhood, the, the origins of it. You know, were, do go back to like racial integration. Do they I

Michael: was wondering that. I didn't know,

Amit: but I, I, I, I definitely like went down rabbit holes on this, but the first published uses of it were always almost in mockery, like in this satirical way.

Yeah. And that's what Rodney [00:37:30] Dangerfield did. He came in, shook things up, took institutions that were otherwise sacred or thought to be a certain thing and brought his own style.

Michael: Very well said. That's beautiful. Alright. Uh, mine? Yes, you'll figure it out. Okay. So Jerry Seinfeld, when he's a young comic, has a lot of admiration for Rodney Dangerfield.

Archival: And I went up to him and, you know, he didn't know who I was. I was just, uh, in the bar standing there and I go, could you gimme some advice about how to be a comedian? [00:38:00] And he went, you'll figure it out. That that's the, that's the kind of weird thing about standup comedy is like. Nobody can help you. It's, it's like being a newborn calf.

The, the cow can't say, here's how you walk. It's just like, figure it out, you know?

Michael: And here's why I love it. It's actually a vote of confidence. I have faith in you. You'll figure this out. It's also simple and elegant, like just. Do it. Yeah, just figure it out. You are funny. I believe in [00:38:30] you. Let's not overthink it too much.

'cause we could overthink it. Yeah,

Amit: you'll figure it out. It's such a powerful phrase when it comes from somebody of authority in a higher status.

Michael: Exactly. And somebody who's known for mentorship. Right. You can hear it being received with such a. Truth to it. Yeah.

Amit: Yeah. Because there's two ways to do it, right.

There's the, you'll figure it out. You see somebody like struggling with something mechanical and, you know, a, a careless father is like, eh, you'll figure it out.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: But then you have this other mentor type of figure that, that puts an arm on your shoulder and it was like, [00:39:00] you'll figure it out.

Michael: Yeah, exactly.

I don't think it's dismissive. No, not all. At least the way Jerry Seinfeld tells. And it could be misinterpreted as dismissive, but if you're, you know, when the student is ready, the, the teacher appears and this is the lesson.

Amit: Yeah. Intonation and gesturing has a huge part of it. Yeah. Excellent.

Michael: Thank you.

Okay. Category seven, man in the mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment.

Amit: If he woke up every morning and had to read Ponche, [00:39:30] googly-eyed, sad sack, fidgety that could do a little bit of damage,

Michael: I went with There's no way he liked his reflection in the mirror.

Really? Yeah, I did. I didn't Nothing. Think about this. Are you gonna, are you gonna make a case where he liked it?

Amit: Yeah. I Huge. Thumbs up all the way.

Michael: Okay. I, I went, I went with the obvious sort of, I mean, I, 'cause there is evidence of self abuse in a lot of different ways. I am championing his marijuana consumption.

I'm not quite on the same page when it comes to his cocaine consumption

Amit: and alcoholism

Michael: to some extent, I think, and I don't know if I'd go that far, but, but it

Amit: wasn't alcoholism, certainly

Michael: heavy [00:40:00] drinking. He's right on that line and absolutely, you know, lifelong smoker struggled to, to get in shape and stay in shape and take care of his body.

I mean, he did. Stay away from heroin, thank God, uh, even though he watched Lenny Bruce shoot up. Have you, did you see this story? No. Yeah. I mean, so he and Lenny came up together.

Amit: That's what's so funny. Lenny seems so much older than of a person, than Rodney.

Michael: Well, that's, it's interesting you mentioned that.

'cause I was gonna say that one thing about Rodney Dangerfield is he's a little bit Burt Reynolds, like in a, being [00:40:30] a bridge figure of generations. Yeah. In the entertainment industry. I mean, I'm not sure we did it justice in the Burt Reynolds. Episode he really came up with Golden age of Hollywood kind of people and was just a little younger.

But we associated him with this next generation of actors. Same thing with Rodney Dangerfield and, and comedy. I mean, he was contemporaries with, you know, Lenny Bruce and Carlin and Cosby and all these throwbacks. But then he gets associated with people who hit it. A generation later, Saggot and Adam Sandler and um Correct.

I mean I think the reason [00:41:00] his Paul

Amit: bearers were people like Adam Sandler and Bob Saggot is 'cause the Lenny Bruces and so forth were dead already. Yes, exactly. Because a lot of them lived these more reckless lifestyles than Rodney and, and didn't make it into their eighties. Well,

Michael: and honestly he was lucky to make it as long as they did.

Totally. The way he traded his body. Yeah. I that and I think he's just a, a goofy looking guy.

Amit: Okay. Alright. My take completely different. Alright. So I think to have a self-deprecating sense of humor, you have to like yourself.

Michael: I need to sit with that one for a second. I'm okay. You sit with that and I

Amit: will, you can come back as I continue [00:41:30] to talk about it.

No, let's,

Michael: let's, let's hear this out. Let's hear this out. Are you saying that as a truth or are you gonna like, argue that case?

Amit: Uh, I'm saying it as, as a truth, but I can provide an argument for it. There's one argument that you can say, okay, you just want to get ahead out in front of the insult before somebody else.

Michael: That's

Amit: where I'm born. It's,

Michael: it's it's defense mechanism. Yeah. You, I'll make fun of me before anybody else does. That way it doesn't hurt as much.

Amit: Yeah, that that is one possible interpretation. It's one point if you're the kid in the classroom, maybe if you're a guy getting on huge, huge stages, it is your [00:42:00] confidence, your self-deprecation is your confidence and it's your ownership of yourself in your narrative.

And it's the same thing that allows you to look yourself in the mirror and say whatever irregularity I may have, whatever goggle eye or, or little or sad sack, but it's ownership. Of it is that I've got this narrative, I know who I am. Hmm. And with it, I think there comes quite a bit of liking yourself.

Rodney Dangerfield also like this guy is so self-made. Although his father was this absentee vaudevillian [00:42:30] comic, they say essentially he had no inborn ability. To be funny. Yeah. He just kept trying and honing and they said, you know, he did it with like the rigor of an engineer, the way that he honed jokes and he reduced everything down to just align and

Michael: timing.

I admire his work ethic more than I envy his natural genius. 'cause I think he's funny, but I think it's funny. Born out of hard work.

Amit: Yeah, well, exactly. So there should be a hell of a lot of pride in that. And I think he had it, although he struggled with depression and his whole gig was, I get no [00:43:00] respect.

Yeah, I, I do not see any. Possibility that he did not feel good enough about himself to be self-deprecating, and he took pride in this road traveled.

Michael: Okay. So I like the argument we're definitely gonna agree to disagree on this because I ultimately think he developed a sort of steal iron inside from his upbringing.

I do think that this is. The consequence of a trouble to childhood, not born out of confidence, although those things are hard to distinguish. I I, I do see your [00:43:30] point, and I do think that there is a, a pride and a confidence that can exist, even if it comes from a problematic root. I just don't see it.

Amit: Ah, God, I don't know, man.

I, we've seen this so differently. It's like to be a, a googly-eyed, punchy, sad sack, fidgety. But to be the worldwide sensation and that important of an institution in comedy, entertainment, and most importantly, like all of these individual lives, despite these adjectives at the beginning of your [00:44:00] obituary.

Yeah, I just, I sense a greater triumph above words and figure.

Michael: I do too. I just don't think it necessarily translate to the visual of, I'm looking myself in the mirror today and here's what I see, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. You've, you've moved me. You've moved me. Yeah. I mean, the best

Amit: we can do is triangulate to our best approximation of what we see in other signs that would tell us of how he perceives him.

Michael: What's interesting though is how emphatic you are about like, I really think he liked his reflection on some level. Yeah. And as much as he was like capable of that. Correct.

Amit: Yeah. And he's also a guy that when he gave an interview, [00:44:30] like an actual real interview, it was as himself, he's very contemplative.

Yes. You know, very self-reflective. He'd done a lot of self-work over time. Yeah. You know, that didn't necessarily slow down the, the drinking and the pot and the coke, but. Uh, he's been there. Well, he's, he's a

Michael: psychiatrist, is like, smoke away. Yeah. You know, if you're finding relief, you know, I, and which I think makes sense.

Sense. I too have had a psychiatrist tell me that. Is that right? Yes. Oh, beautiful. Um, I wish I had, I need to, can, can you gimme his name? Uh, no, I cannot. Okay. Probably meant for the best. All right, so you're [00:45:00] a yes. He likes it. I'm a No, he didn't and I think, I think we need to leave it there. Okay. Category eight, coffee cocktail or cannabis.

This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. This may be a question of what drug sounds like. The most fun to partake with this person or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them. We're most curious about Should I lead?

Yeah. Okay. Cannabis, a hundred percent.

Amit: Because you don't even have to light it. He's already like,

Michael: nah, it's actually more than that. So. As somebody who's a heavy drinker, like I don't wanna drink with them. Right. [00:45:30] Because I see it all turned inward. But people who actually smoke a ton of pot and you can actually see and feel the relief.

I'm a little envious of that. Yeah. I mean, Doug Benson comes to mind as somebody who makes me want to get high, even though he is high every day, there's nothing like Unique or Willie, for that matter. Yes. Willie Nelson. You know Snoop

Amit: Dogg?

Michael: Yeah. I, I mean, I, they, they make pot look pretty good and I do think that it.

Clearly does something important for him. And I kind of like seeing that work. It makes it look attractive to me. Uh, [00:46:00] it's not an unlock necessarily, I just want, you know, a version of him that he likes more. And so, yeah, I didn't overthink this. I, I'd love to smoke a joint with Rodney Dangerfield.

Amit: And any, any topics you wanna go into or just hanging out.

Michael: I think it's probably just hanging out. I don't need to go anywhere philosophical necessarily. I think I probably would enjoy hearing some, like when was the first time you saw Sam Kinison? He, uh, there was a young comedian special where. Rodney Dangerfield introduces Bill Hicks. I'd like to know [00:46:30] his first impressions of Bill Hicks, who's my favorite comic.

You know, I'd, I'd like to hear him break down what works about somebody's act. You don't see him being very analytical about that. And one thing about his comedy, it is very much like joke set up, joke set up. It's very old school that way it's not storytelling. Right. Which is kind of the comedy I go for.

We were raised on that. Totally. And yeah, I don't, I don't know to need to go deep here. I think what he. Wants from people is, is an acceptance of who he is. And I think the marijuana would help him and would probably help [00:47:00] me. Yeah. So I went cocktail, but probably the first cocktail,

Amit: you know, I don't wanna be on there for like the sixth cocktail.

I want be in the it's, yeah. Yeah. Well I, I mean, probably yes, but, but I, what's especially important to me is that first one, and I think I just have one question for him. It is what gives you joy? Yeah, because it's so unclear because of this huge amount of success, the self-deprecation, which I have argued is potentially a good thing.

This straight man in the interviews of like being very pontificating, being very open about dealing [00:47:30] with depression for a good bit of his life. And that's a reason for the marijuana. But clearly that you, you can't fake the smiles and the laughs. Yeah. Right. 'cause he had them and he had some awesome moments and you see him cracking people up and loving it and really.

Getting into flow, but he's such an enigma because of this really tough childhood that struggles with his own depression and with substances and this whole man versus himself. But there is definitely a lot of joy in there. You just cannot spot exactly when it's coming out [00:48:00] and when it's. Fully inhabited by him.

And so I just want to know when he feels it most.

Michael: Do you think he's ever asked himself that question?

Amit: I don't see how not a guy that's that in introspective,

Michael: well, hang on, I wanna, I wanna linger on this for a second. 'cause this continues to actually be something that has been a real journey for me since I sobered up.

Okay. I didn't realize that. I didn't know how to experience happiness. Without, without a substance. Yeah. And, and know how to experience joy, that my whole idea of fun was built [00:48:30] around getting fucked up Uhhuh. Right. And that I am still, you know. Almost 11 years sober now learning how to know when joy is upon me, you know when part of it is, I have this idea that if I'm happy in the moment, oh, this means I'm now gonna have a happy life.

I, I quickly project it into the future. I quickly try and take that emotion as, as future condition, which is weird, but I think a lot of people do that. Also, when something beautiful is [00:49:00] happening, when I'm playing with my kids. And they're, you know, being playful and joyful when I'm connecting with my wife in a great conversation.

When you and I are like in a, in having like a good chat about whatever that celebrity or whatever, you know, I don't always know, Hey Michael, this is joy, this is fun. This is what happiness looks like. I don't always recognize that, and I think if you struggle in the way that. I I'm saying I did, but also, and do the way that Rodney Dangerfield does.

I, I actually don't [00:49:30] think it's as simple as a question as you might assume, Uhhuh, are you experiencing joy? And can you, can you tell yes when you are and can you allow it? Right? So that's why I asked the question, do you think he asked himself that question? Yes. But that is, that, is that the conversation you want to have over a drink?

Amit: That is. And I, I think he has an answer. And I think part of this, of like working until he dies and that knowing that that is what keeps him moving. I think he has some sense of what his inner drivers of joy are.

Michael: I actually agree with that. Some, [00:50:00] something about in the interviews you sometimes see a kind of straightforwardness, it's sort of like the Jerry Seinfeld thing.

You'll figure it out. Like some things are not that complicated. Yeah. And I, I actually think he's got, uh, intuition about that. Alright, final category. The VanDerBeek named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life. Ahmed. What is the case for wanting Rodney Dangerfield's life?

Well, wait, we're gonna answer this together. Yeah, right. Yeah. There's a lot here actually. I thought this was gonna be a harder case to make. [00:50:30] There's some hard stuff here. There is some hard stuff, but I don think it's know there's, there's a lot of pain and. You know? Yeah. I don't

Amit: think it's

Michael: that hard

Amit: though.

And I'll, I'll start with one, which was where I was going in. One of my five things I love about you was his making old look fun. Yeah. And let's wanna reduce that to a phrase of freedom. Like the guy really just achieved more and more freedom and cared less. Huh. And less about really about other people.

And I think he's with, with a guy that rose in this generation [00:51:00] that, that. Could have gone a lot of, of bad ways that you see in, in terms of harassment, abuse and so forth. So far we don't, we don't see much of it from Rodney, thank God. Um, but the guy had great freedom to be himself and be inside of his own skin, and it seemed to get better as he went on.

And with each additional bathrobe that he purchased.

Michael: Uh, would, would you tie those things together, that greater freedom because of service? To his profession and younger comics. This is, this [00:51:30] is a real idea in 12 steps, right? That you get to experience joy and freedom yourself by being of service. Yeah, and he kind of stumbled into that in a way because he is more than I think anybody else of the last 50 years, a champion for younger comics and for like the art form itself.

Even great comics who I love like Pryor and Carlin and Steve Martin, they may have mentored some people overall, but Rodney. Mentor to generation. Yes, to my point about creating space. Yeah. So my question is, would you tie that in [00:52:00] with his journey of greater freedom with age

Amit: I. Uh, yes, I would tie it in. I wouldn't say it's the only ingredient.

Right. But I would definitely tie it in. Yes. I think it's

Michael: an essential ingredient though, or an important one. Very much. What's another ingredient then

Amit: towards freedom or just towards why we want his life? Yeah. Towards why we want his life. To me, it's, and this is, this is overlaying a, a lot of myself on it.

It's how busy he was. Hmm. He used to very famously say like, I hate actually doing movies and tv, because they're just so damn slow. Right? It's like I'm [00:52:30] in a trailer half the time and then I shoot for a minute and then I'm back in the trailer and he is like, there's just so much standing around, you know?

I'd much rather be on stage. So this is a guy of impatience. And a disdain for inaction. There was a lot of activity. There was a lot of activity, and with that comes flow. Yeah. And somebody that is as impatient as quote unquote fidgety as him, he found a way to both be in a profession and do things auxiliary to his profession and his personal life that constantly kept him [00:53:00] busy, engaged and connected.

That's very

Michael: well

Amit: said.

Michael: I don't think I have much to add to that. I think the only other thing I'd say. To me, and maybe this is your point number one, I think he did figure it out. And as much as there's anything to figure out, there is no meaning of life. There is no great secret. Maybe it is all a joke, but he figured it out for him anyway.

Right. And I think that that's all you can ever hope for Yeah. Is to figure it out for yourself. Because, I don't know, we're looking for universal truths and we're looking for like a one idea to unite us all. I, I think everybody's gotta figure [00:53:30] it out, but he figured it out.

Amit: Yeah. Let me ask one of you, because th this is something that, that to me looks pretty good, but he, you know, he had bad habits Yeah.

With the drinking and the smoking and the drugs, but he didn't really get into addiction. He didn't really get into any major trouble. Yeah. Because of it. Yeah. So is that something too. To like want a life for is you sort of still got to enjoy what these sort of false chemically produced reactions that, that do bring these or these, uh, vices or [00:54:00] whatever, but whatever they're, they're still vehicles for, for enjoyment.

Yeah. Right. I, I, I, so is this an addiction question? I'm saying, is it a good thing that you got to be a drinker and a smoker and still lived overweight well into your eighties?

Michael: I don't think it's a bad thing. I mean, when it, when it comes to bad habits, vices, and even sort of getting into addictions there, there is the damage to internal self and then there's the damage to relationships and almost even a, a public health concern.

And, and I do think in as much as he had the tools, [00:54:30] he participated to the best of his ability in. Interpersonal relationships. Right. And I think he was capable of that. We're all imperfect. So on that level, I don't. Have any judgment or even, I dunno, and it's even kind of attractive. Look, I'm sober. That's what I was trying to get at.

It's still kind of attractive. Yeah. This is my point about marijuana. I kind of, you know, like I, I love my sobriety. It's the most important thing in my life. No question about it. That said, I can look at somebody like Rodney Dangerfield, who smokes a lot of pot and say, well, it looks pretty good. Yeah. [00:55:00] And it's working for him and he figured it out for him.

So I, I, I, I'm able to divorce my own. Relationship to substances from somebody else's, I guess. Yeah. You know, and I, and I actually, in a funny way, don't see an addict here. I don't see an alcoholic here, and it's because of what I just spoke to. It's because I, I don't see it as having an undue toll on interpersonal relationships, as best I can tell.

Amit: Yeah. So I think throughout this whole episode, we saw a lot of bad stuff, a lot of midlife bad stuff. Yeah. But I, I think the case is [00:55:30] there. And I started with freedom. Yeah. And then after that, we also said service. Creating spaces, however you wanna describe it. Yeah. And I and, and

Michael: then

Amit: I said

Michael: busyness as a lifestyle.

Yeah. You know, I really, and then figuring it out. So James VanDerBeek. I'm Rodney Dangerfield and you want my life.

All right. Speed round here. Plugs for past [00:56:00] episodes. Uh, which episode does this one most remind you of?

Amit: I thought of a few. I'm gonna go Fred Willard. Oh,

Michael: interesting.

Amit: It's 'cause very similar, their movie Breakthroughs being in their early eighties and it happening in their fifties. Yeah. And both just funny as hell in different sorts of ways.

Michael: Yeah, I thought about Alan Rickman for that same reason, the post forties. I think I actually am gonna go Burt Reynolds. I'm not sure we totally nailed the truth of who Burt was in that episode, but I do think it's a different way of looking at his legacy and the sort of multi-generational [00:56:30] historical figure in entertainment history.

Okay, on the next episode of Famous and Gravy. She was married three times in all and between marriages. She dated many prominent and powerful men. Among them, Senator John Warner of Virginia and the Federal Reserve Chairman, Alan Greenspan. Oh, I know this. I know this. That was Taylor. She was married more than that.

Friend: Oh,

Amit: famous Gravy. Listeners, we love hearing from [00:57:00] you. If you wanna reach out to us with a comment question, or participate in our opening quiz, you can email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and social channels. Famous and Gravy is created and Co-hosted by Michael Osborne and me, Ahmed Kapur.

This episode was produced by Megan Palmer in original music by Kevin Strang. See you next [00:57:30] time.