089 Surely Serious transcript (Leslie Nielsen)

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Amit: [00:00:00] This is famous and gravy biographies from a different point of view. Now the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2010, age 84. In 1993, he published an autobiography that cheerfully and blatantly fabricated events in his life.

Friend: George Burns was older than that. It probably long before 2010,

Michael: not George Burns. Before his [00:00:30] 18th birthday, he enlisted in the Royal Canadian Air Force and trained as an aerial gunner during World War ii, but he was never sent overseas.

Friend: Man, I have nothing on Canadian air flight, uh, guys

Michael: yet. Alright. His elder brother was Deputy Prime Minister of Canada from 1984 to 1986. Ugh. I have

Archival: no idea Canadian. No luck there. Okay. William Shatner's still alive, so it's not him.

Michael: As of this recording, I'm happy to say William [00:01:00] Shatner is still with us.

He was nominated twice for Emmy Awards, won in 1982 as an outstanding lead actor in a comedy series, and again in 1988 as an outstanding guest actor in the comedy series. What was I watching in 88? Isn't the Jeffersons? I don't know. Uh, not an actor from the Jeffersons, but that's a good guess. His big break came in 1980 when he was cast as a clueless doctor in the low budget, big money making disaster, movie parody airplane.[00:01:30]

The line that became his catchphrase was, I am serious, and don't call me shortly. Leslie Nielsen,

Friend: uh, is his name, Leslie Nielsen. Leslie, yes. Leslie.

Leslie Nielsen, Leslie Nielsen. I got it.

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is Leslie Nielsen.

Archival: Things fortunately for me, have not turned out to be as important as I used to think they were.

My big break, uh, began that very day that I woke up and decided I would no longer take myself [00:02:00] seriously. And, uh, so, and, and what, what day was that? Well, it was a day, and I can't pin it down. It was 20 years ago maybe, somewhere like that. When you say you decided not to take yourself seriously, do, did you think you'd been taking yourself too seriously?

Yes, I think so. You know, uh, you know, when you have important things to do. I. Uh, those, uh, in many cases are I think, the way we defend ourselves against our feelings of insecurity.[00:02:30]

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne.

Amit: And I'm Amit Kapoor.

Michael: And on this show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century and present a new narrative. Most biographies focus on legacies and accomplishments, but we are interested in the journey, the process, the experiences. What didn't we know?

What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today? Leslie Nielsen [00:03:00] died 2010, age 84,

category one, grading the first line of their obituary, Leslie Nielsen. The Canadian born actor who in middle age tossed aside three decades of credibility in dramatic and romantic roles to make a new, far more successful career as a comic actor in films like Airplane, and the Naked Gun Series died [00:03:30] on Sunday in Fort Lauderdale, Florida.

He was 84. Pretty genius. You think so?

Yes. Say more. I would think it perfectly encapsulates the arc of Leslie Nielsen. The

story. Yeah. Yeah.

Amit: It's new information though to me. Yeah, like so you didn't know this? I didn't know this. I didn't know about the pre-com life.

Michael: You didn't know that he had had a kind of like working actor, you know, was able to bring in a steady income for years.

But that there was this major pivot with airplane and the Jucker brothers and all that. No,

Amit: I just [00:04:00] sort of assumed that he was maybe a standup comic that made his way through and became a comedic actor. That's incredible. I, I had no idea. Had I have read this like in 2010 Mm, this would've been brand new news to me.

Michael: That's so interesting. Okay. So it was not to me, I mean, I, I knew because

Amit: you're a PhD in No, it has nothing to do with

Michael: education. I'm a little bit more of a film history nerd. I had seen the Poseidon Adventure, but I also even remember. That story of Leslie Nielsen. Really? I don't know how I picked it up.

Yeah. MTV news. Maybe. I feel like I did [00:04:30] know this somehow. You know, I think I also knew that he was kind of a mainstay on tv.

Amit: Yeah. So I, I think you're right. I think most people probably knew that story. I don't know. I just maybe didn't, certainly I think people older than us, 'cause we were, we were pretty much kids when the naked gun and all were coming out.

Michael: Yeah. And

Amit: certainly at an airplane. We were practically, we were babies. I don't

Michael: know. I mean, I do. Okay, so let me go back. You said it's pretty genius. Mm-Hmm. I think yes, to some extent. I actually have a big hesitation with this. Really only the tossed [00:05:00] aside three decades of credibility.

Amit: Yep.

Michael: You know what I, what really?

That's the

Amit: highlighted phrase for me as well.

Michael: Yeah. What really irks me about that is it implies agency. It implies that he was like, you know what? I've built all this. Capital as a working actor in serious and romantic roles, I'm gonna cash it all in and do something different. I think he kind of. Lucked in, stumbled into this story.

Totally. The way this is written makes it seem like there's a consciousness and choice and decision. Yeah. That is kind of there. He [00:05:30] wanted to do comedy. He was excited about airplane, and as soon as that pivot happened, he wrote it and milked it for all its work. Yeah. He

Amit: describes it more as this was a, this was his big break.

Yeah. Rather than he threw something away in favor of something that was potentially more risky.

Archival: I thought, you know, if they watch too much, they're gonna find out that I'm a fraud. But it never turned out that way. They were watching because they had detected in me the same wavelengths and humor that they had.

I. [00:06:00]

Amit: What I do like about that phrase though is credibility. 'cause he was, I think you read this simple arc of serious actor becomes a comedic actor. You assume he sucked. Yeah. As a serious actor. But he was actually pretty good. They compared him to Marlon Brando Contemporary. Well,

Michael: and I mean, he had some near misses.

He was almost in Ben Hur. He was up for The Shining. I mean, there was some. You know, big deal movies that he was considered.

Friend: Yep.

Michael: It's hard to get the pulse on just how important or how well known he was prior to airplane. I feel like he was, [00:06:30] you know, for the casual movie going audience in the early eighties, he was kind of a that guy.

Amit: Yeah, he was a Steve Gutenberg. Yeah.

Michael: I dunno if that's, I dunno if that's the comp, but go with Exactly. But sure, let's get back to this. Um. Tossed aside three decades of credibility. You like that?

Amit: No, I don't like tossed aside. I like credibility. I agree with your interpretation that it's not, it wasn't about agency.

It wasn't an act of throwing aside.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: I just like the word credibility there.

Michael: I think everything else, [00:07:00] I also really like in middle age, so he's 54 I think when airplane comes out. Yeah. What a comment.

Amit: He's gonna live to 1 0 8.

Michael: Yeah. Right. And then they point to airplane and naked gun. And that's actually all you should point to.

Amit: Yep. You just like the crap all over Mr. Magoo, don't you?

Michael: You know, actually, we're gonna get into this more later. I'm not sure anything else he did wasn't any good. You know, I watched it, but some of the

Amit: cameos, I think

Michael: maybe, maybe, maybe. But it's a stretch. I mean the, the thing is, I would make the case that we feel like he did [00:07:30] more, not because he did other great movies.

'cause most of the other movies, even the naked guns sequels are pretty forgettable. Yeah. But Airplane and Naked Gun are so re watchable and that it makes it seem like he did more great movies. Correct. You know, so. I got one other thing I wanna comment on and then let's go right to scores. Okay. Canadian born, it's kind of important, right?

Amit: Especially, I mean, uh, it's, he's so Canadian, the story and everything, which we're gonna get into as this all unfolds.

Michael: Were you surprised to learn he was Canadian? Uh, no, I'm not funny. I was a [00:08:00] little bit, there was something very, I always, they always

Amit: surprise us.

Michael: I guess That's true. Surprise Canadian. You never know.

Yeah. You just never know. But I don't know. I, he, he always sort of presented as very American to me. Yes. And so that's why I think I was a little surprised to learn Canadian born.

Amit: Yeah. But how Canadian he was is pretty phenomenal.

Michael: Yeah. All right. You got your score?

Amit: Yeah, I'm gonna go an eight. Okay. So despite my saying at the beginning that I thought it was genius, I think professor, you actually won me over with the agency argument.

So I'm docking two for that.

Michael: I'm docking three for it. Okay. I'm going seven. I [00:08:30] really considered an eight. That's a pretty big demerit for this, but I think it really matters that if the first line of the obituary is. An encapsulation of the story. I'm not sure this is an accurate story. Yeah, I, I think that there are, uh, you know, blowing with the winds of time and responding to market forces and opportunities come up and like, I, I really do enforce this.

Yeah, absolutely. I, that's

Amit: just funny.

Michael: Why is that funny? Yeah. The market. You don't think that's funny? He is a, uh, product. He is a product and he exists in the entertainment industry. Yes. And [00:09:00] there are market forces at play that will select for his qualities at some point. I just

Amit: feel like you read The Economist in the bathroom or something this morning, and so you have to throw out

Michael: market

Amit: forces.

Michael: I don't think I should be insulted by that. It's, I know. No, it's great. It's wonderful. Thank you. So those market forces were at play and he tossed aside three decades of credibility. I, I don't, I don't think that's what happened. Exactly. Yeah. And I don't like that that's how the story is presented. It feels like unnecessary spin.

And I think that there's another way of saying in middle age. [00:09:30] Found himself doing comedies or something. I think there's other better verbs here.

Amit: I agree. I agree. And so

Michael: I'm giving a seven. All right. Seven and eight. Okay. Let's go right into it. Category two, five things I love about you here. Amit and I develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived.

Would you like to kick us off?

Amit: I've got a bunch, but because of that, I actually want you to kick it off 'cause I want some constraints drawn around mine. Interesting.

Michael: Okay. Can we just start with the obvious thing? The latent life career? Yeah. Uh, but this is how I [00:10:00] qualified it. I wrote latent life, career success as a result of not taking one self too seriously.

Amit: Which he repeated over and over again. You

Michael: did? Yes. And I love that about him. Right. That I, I do think that there's something that we just love about his story of this. Man with a sense of humor was in there all along. Yeah. And he finally got a chance to let that person out, right? Correct. And he was the guy for the moment when these comedies came about.

Archival: Comedian is someone who says funny things. [00:10:30] Comic is someone who says things funny. So I'm neither. I'm someone who says unfunny things. I say unfunny things in an unfunny way. And somehow it seems to end up funny.

Michael: There's a playfulness to it. There's a like funny old grandpa quality to it. Yeah. But it sort of gets at a deeper life philosophy thing that if you are seeking love, then you've gotta stop looking for love, right?

If you are looking for success, then you surrender all outcomes than just like, well, you [00:11:00] quit taking things seriously. The joys of life flow in your direction. And so. Yeah, I mean he's 54 when an airplane comes out, he's 62. When Naked Gun comes out, it's really late in life success.

Amit: Yes.

Michael: And it's just such a great story.

Amit: Yeah. And it was definitely, I mean, this was my number one also. Yeah. Which is kind of why I wanted you to open him with it. 'cause I could just add to it. And so the words I used were like pivot phase two, et cetera. But I think what my interpretation of what I like about it is what you said of him not taking himself so seriously.

Yeah. So you think [00:11:30] about late in life success or any success you think about acceleration. And his was more of a deceleration. It's just, I'm not gonna take myself as seriously. Yeah. And that turned out to be the golden ticket.

Michael: Yeah. So I, I think it's pretty simple. This is a thing that comes up all the time on Famous and Gravy, how much we love these latent life successes.

Yeah. You know, somebody who. It's not that he had a bad life or a bad career or anything that was not going great, but it was kind of middling until he turns into an old man and then is completely unleashed.

Amit: That's

Michael: 54

Amit: is not an old man.

Michael: It's an older [00:12:00] man. An older man. Back

Amit: then it was, now it's,

Michael: it's still, it is, it is.

No, I know. It's close. Close now. The flag. The flag is visible. I'm not calling you. Okay. I I 54? Yes, but sixties. I mean sixties. Are you an old, okay, here's the question. Yes. At what age do you become an old man? 70. I feel like we're moving the goalpost on this.

Amit: We are removing the goalpost. Yes. Is that because we're aging or is that because of No, I think the goalpost is actually moving.

Michael: Yeah, maybe you're right.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: Okay. The white hair makes it look like an old

Amit: No, that is totally true. Yeah. He has white hair syndrome.

Michael: [00:12:30] Yes. Yes. I think that's part of this still, so, okay. I retract it, not necessarily an old man, but definitely second half of life over the hill. I mean, you, you kind of would have thought all other things being equal.

He was just gonna fade into the memory of forgotten Hollywood figure. Yeah. And it takes this total turn that nobody expected, which is just, it's beautiful. It's inspirational. It's, it is it, that's the word. It's inspirational. Nobody would've planned this out. Yeah. You know? All right. You take number two.

Okay. I'll go log cabins and [00:13:00] apples. Oh, yes. Okay. I still, yeah, I had something like

Amit: this. Uh, so he literally grew up in a log cabin. Yes. Like logs, sod, roof, clay floor. His father was posted in like way, way Northern Canada and way, way Northern Saskatchewan.

Archival: Fort Norman is a place where I spent my childhood and, uh, that is, uh.

On the same parallel of Latitude as Fairbanks in Alaska's, it's pretty cold, you know, it gets 70 below zero.

Michael: We are a few hundred miles [00:13:30] outside of the Arctic Circle.

Amit: Yes. Yeah.

Michael: And

Amit: he said it was a town of 75, 5 of which were, were us were his family. Yeah. Um, so that's the log cabin part, like these origins.

But he also credits that for being a big part of his sense of humor. Right. 'cause you've got nothing else in a small freezing town. But to find a way to have joy. Yeah, and joy through words and laughter.

Michael: It really sounded like with his brothers too. Yes. Was sort of where he found that. 'cause his dad's a pretty hard guy.

Amit: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, his dad was there basically as a member of ironically the, like a National Guard police force. [00:14:00] Those origins really surprised me. I wouldn't

Michael: have thought he was like from the sticks.

Amit: No way. I mean, I'm Canadian, I can buy, but I'm like Fine Toronto or, or something. Right.

Michael: Exactly. He's got a worldliness about him or enough of one that I didn't think.

He came from, you know, town of, there's not even a town. It's like, say like you said, 75 people. Yeah. It's, I mean, it's

Amit: literally the size of the parking lot outside of this studio. Right,

Michael: right,

Amit: right. So it's that, and the apples, uh, is, is related to that, is about his brother specifically. Yeah. Who was alluded to in the quiz.

His brother Eric [00:14:30] became Deputy Prime Minister of Canada. And so I like how the, from this log cabin, the two apples fell in completely opposite directions of the tree. I think it's very cool when brothers do the same thing. If you have like the Kelsey Brothers, right, welcome to Wondery. Right. By the way, I think you have like brothers, like you and I have that we're quite similar, but a little bit different, and then you have these completely different types.

Yeah.

Michael: I totally

Amit: chose different paths. I think they're all beautiful for different reasons, but this like way, way different and hugely successful in different ways is just awesome.

Michael: Yeah, [00:15:00] I agree. I agree. I had this one on my list too. Okay. Okay, so that's number two. All right. I hesitated to put this one on, but I'm gonna take number three.

Okay. The fart machine. Oh, you did? Yeah. Okay. Okay. Okay. So here's where it's a little offputting. Okay. But first of all, this has to get brought up. Yes. He carried a fart machine with him everywhere, at every interview of Leslie Nielsen. He's busting it out and cracking up interviewers and, you know, talk show hosts.

By pressing the button. Yeah. And he was delighted by this thing.

Archival: Uh, although I will do [00:15:30] almost anything I can for a laugh. Mm-Hmm?

Michael: I said almost. What have you got there? What is the, what is the, hold it. Let show this. You heard, you

Archival: heard the rude noises that it makes? Yes. I, I did nothing but fun. I got that from a man in Oklahoma City, Jack Martin, who's a senior golf pro, and one night he said, Lasley, I'm going to give you something to change your life.

I did [00:16:00] too. I've had nothing but laughs.

Michael: Look, it is so childish and so dumb, but he's also so delighted by it. Yeah. You know, Leslie Nielsen is so happy to bust out his, his fart machine.

Amit: Yeah, I can see that as, as a vehicle for joy. I, okay. I buy that. Well, I, I sign off on

Michael: that. My children have a little sound machine that they get in the car and it drives me absolutely crazy.

But then, like, when it's really well timed, it still gets me, it's still funny and it's based dumb humor, but it's on brand. [00:16:30] So, I don't know, are you gonna shoot that one down? Do you not wanna go with that? No,

Amit: I like it. I, I like how you spun it into Joy. Yeah. All right. You take number four. Number four. I'd say boisterous language.

And this is about Leslie Neilsen himself, not about any of the characters that he played, he used. Fantastic language if you watched him in the interviews. I selected a few of my favorites. Okay. So he uses the word terrific a lot. Yeah. I saw this on both a Pat Sage X show interview, which I think it was Pat Sage X sitting in for Letterman.

Oh, yeah. Saw in a Conan interview. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He was always like, life is terrific, [00:17:00] or this, I've got this terrific new project. It's just, it's such a nice word to Terry Gross, he said, talked about an upcoming movie. I think it was Naked Gun two and a Half, and he's like, it's wondrously dumb.

Archival: Yeah,

Amit: yeah, yeah, yeah.

And my third favorite use of vocabulary was Peter Segel. So he told a story about directing Naked Gun 33 and the third, and he had a little bit of odds with Leslie Nielsen at first, and then they came around it and. Leslie Nielsen said, you're doing a Herculean job.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: And so I love his use of vocabulary as a mechanism [00:17:30] for excellence.

Michael: Yeah. Interesting. I was gonna ask about like to what end, but you're talking about in terms of sort of like praise and exuberance and I don't know, I got, I'm trying to dig in, double click into some of the examples you've offered here. Yeah, it's praise ex ance, but I think

Amit: it's, it's a next level 'cause these are extremes.

And the way that he offers them, and it seems like he offers them genuinely. I love it when somebody can pull off genuine, strong vocabulary. Yeah. And 'cause it, it elevates whatever they're talking about. It elevates the person they're talking to. It elevates to the pe. It [00:18:00] elevates the people that are listening to it.

Michael: I did actually think a little bit about calling out his voice as a thing. I love, it's not on my list, but I think he, he does have a great radio.

Amit: Well, let's, let's group that in here, because I don't think in a dull voice you can pull off. Terrific. Wondrous and Herculean. It is packaged in the voice.

Michael: Yeah.

Okay, cool. I like it. So is that number four? That's number four. So we're at five. Do you want another one? I can tell there's more on your end and I'm, and I want to hear them. Yeah. Uh, okay. Crossed

Amit: institutional

Michael: barriers through comedy.

Amit: Oh wow. [00:18:30] Okay. Explain, say more. I've got two examples for this. They're, they're both naked gun examples.

Okay. So for anyone unfamiliar with Naked Gun, particularly the first one, the plot is he is a police detective Leslie Nielsen is Sergeant Frank Dre, and he's foiling a plot for someone to kill Queen Elizabeth. She's visiting America. That's right. It largely takes place around a baseball stadium. That's right.

Um, so two things. One in 2005. The Queen visits Saskatchewan, and there is a gala held [00:19:00] and one could attend for several thousand dollars guests of honor, queen Elizabeth, prince Philip, and Leslie Nielsen.

Michael: No way. Yeah. Oh, that's fantastic. Absolutely. Oh, I've always wondered about the Monarchy's relationship to Naked Gun, and then I have my answer that we're apparently we've accepted it for what it is.

Totally.

Amit: Apparently they've embraced it.

Michael: Um, I mean that was, I think the first time I learned that. England had a queen, was naked gun probably. So I think I was introduced to the Queen as a figure through Naked Gun. I think there was a nursery rhyme that we had to learn. Learn. There's [00:19:30] actually the Naked, naked gun is like, and it's in a way, an important movie.

I did not know who OG Simpson was before Naked Gun. Yeah. I did not know who Reggie Jackson was. I didn't know who Enrico Palazzo was.

Amit: Ah, thank you. Thank you, thank you. 'cause this is my second institutional barrier. Okay, great. So Enrico Palazzo was the name of the The National Anthem. National Anthem Singer.

But Leslie Nielsen also played the umpire in the movie, so they confused

Archival: you.[00:20:00]

Amit: The second serious institutional barrier that was broken is when Leslie Nielsen died. ESPN published an obituary for Enrico Plato. No way. Yeah. I'll link to it in show notes. I'll show you immediately after the show, but then I'll link to it in the show notes. I'm so curious to hear the first one. So here you have two like semi-serious things that because of these, like such [00:20:30] critical iconic role.

That Leslie Nielsen played, that it actually crossed over these real life barriers between kind of serious institutions and this comedic fiction.

Michael: So what do you love about that? Do you love the transgress of it? Do you love the taboo, like you're not supposed to do that?

Amit: I, no. I like the, the arresting of the guard, the downing of the guard.

For it. Yeah. To use, to take the the monarchy reference a little further. Yeah. But his thing is so funny and so ridiculous and so iconic. It's like, we're, we're gonna pay it. It's due.

Michael: Oh, that's great. What I really like about it is it does get [00:21:00] at the heart of his humor, like, of why we find him so funny.

Amit: Yeah. 'cause it, it. Levels us all down. Totally. It's just so simple and so funny. That said something like The Queen is willing to do a gala with him, and Joni Mitchell was at the same gala, by the way. Is that right? That out or EPN is willing very rarely to actually do a satirical obituary.

Michael: Yeah. Alright, let's recap.

So number one, we went with late in life career success as a result of not taking oneself too seriously. That's an important one. I'm glad we called that

Amit: out.

Michael: That's,

Amit: that's everything.

Michael: That's sort of everything. Yeah. Uh, number, number two. Number [00:21:30] two. I said log cabins and apples. Number three. I went with the fart machine.

Number four, you said boisterous language and voice, but number five, crossing, how'd you put it? Crossing institutional barriers. Crossing institutional barriers. It's a really good list. It is very good. All right. Thank you, Leslie. Thank you, Leslie. All right, let's pause for a quick break. Category three, one love.

In this category, we each choose one word or phrase that characterizes their loving relationships. Before we select our word or phrase, [00:22:00] we will review the family life data. So Nielsen was married four different times. First wife, Monica Boyer, 1950 to 1956. Leslie was 24 when they got married, 30 when they got divorced, she was six years older by the way.

Is that right? Yeah. I tried to get ages on most of these. I couldn't find them. Yeah, I couldn't find her. But because she was a public figure, you were able, so she was older. Yeah. Interesting. And a Calypso dancer. Yeah. Which actually took me down a little bit of a, this is a side note, Maya Angelou Rabbit Hole, because Maya was also a Calypso dancer.

Mm-Hmm. And I was like, did [00:22:30] Leslie and Maya ever cross paths They did in the nineties when they were invited to an event at the Clinton White House?

Amit: That's what we gotta do. We gotta do a cross path special. Oh my God. Other people we've done episodes on.

Michael: Yeah. With like, you know, strings and a whiteboard and we look like crazy.

Amit: People look like John Nash.

Michael: It's not a bad, but I like the idea that Leslie Nielsen and Maya Angelou weren't in the same space on at least a few occasions. All wife number two, Asda, I think is how you say her name. Ulman, 1958 to 1973. Leslie was 32 when they got married. 47. When they got [00:23:00] divorced, they had two kids.

Brooks Oliver married, 1981 to 1983. Leslie was. Age 55 at this point, and they got divorced when he was 57. Then finally, wife number four, Barbara e Earl. They got married in 2001 and they were married until his death in 2010. Leslie was 75 when they got married. He died at age 84. There's, I think, a 22 year difference with wife number four.

Okay. I mentioned two daughters. There's also some stepchildren. This, this was an [00:23:30] unusual one. It was very private. It didn't talk about it. It's very private. There's not a lot of information. Anytime he is asked about it in an interview, he kind of deflects and say, well, I'll get it right one of these days.

Right? Yeah. And this is a guy who wrote a fictional autobiography, right? I mean, actually researching Leslie Nielsen's life was not easy. There's not a lot out there about him. Yeah. And he gave interviews, but most of the interviews he gives are after 1980. Where he's transitioned into this comedic figure and he approaches [00:24:00] every interview.

As if he's supposed to bring forth his sense, character, sense of humor. Yeah. A little bit. If not being character. Like present as a comedy actor. Yes. Or as a comedic actor. And so he, he doesn't seem to go there very much. I also, I do personally detect a little bit of a coldness, a little bit of a standoffishness.

A little bit of funneled grandpa. But you actually can only go so deep with funneled grandpa or something like that.

Amit: Yeah. Which could just be a form of protection. Totally. That's, have nothing wrong with that. Totally, totally. No, I'm not, I'm not criticizing It makes, it [00:24:30] makes our

Michael: show harder, but everyone's,

Amit: everyone's got that right.

I'm not

Michael: criticizing it necessarily. But the other thing is you look at all other things here, hammed and for marriages, and the wives look to be getting increasingly younger as he gets older. Yeah. Where there's like a larger age gap. So I gave this a lot of thought and I actually went back to the log cabin a little bit.

I was looking for something that's like trying to capture, that's like maybe a little bit of a cool or cold interior. My word is. Wolf. Okay. [00:25:00] Okay. So I went down to Wikipedia. I'm like, I'm gonna look up the Arctic Wolf. Okay, I'm gonna read this description from Wikipedia, edited for clarity. You tell me if you hear some Leslie Nielsen in here.

Arctic Wolf, also known as the White Wolf. A subspecies of gray wolf native to high arctic tundra of Canada. Unlike some populations that move between tundra and forest regions, Arctic wolves spend their entire lives north of the tree line. It is a medium sized subspecies, [00:25:30] distinguished by its smaller size.

Its wider coloration, its narrower brain case, and larger caracals. Those are teeth, I believe. Okay. Since 1930, there has been a progressive reduction in size of arctic wolf skulls, which is likely the result of wolf dog hybridization. Wow. Okay. Do you see some Leslie Nielsen in that description? Yeah, I get it.

Well done. Thank you. Thank you. So, uh, that's all I have to say. Yeah. I, there's so little to say and so little to dig [00:26:00] into. It's all guesswork, but there's a little bit of architect wolf. Yeah. We shouldn't,

Amit: we shouldn't extrapolate where there's nothing to like available to extrapolate. Yeah.

Michael: It's what do we

Amit: see?

Michael: Yeah. And, and this is what, what I see is a little bit of an a wolf. Yeah. Because there's, there's an elegance. There's, he's attractive. Right. He's a very handsome guy, but a little bit of a loner and exists, you know, north of the tree line. Yeah. And doesn't go below that. So what did you have here?

Amit: Um, I went, nobody knows anything.

Yeah. Okay. Yeah. Which is a nod to William Goldman in episode that we did. Because we don't know. We just don't know. Yeah. And like I said, [00:26:30] it's he's, he's got that right to be protected. If you say that, maybe there is a possibility of a coldness. Yeah. But either way we don't know

Michael: how Does it affect your interpretation of the story or does it at all, you know what I mean?

Like, so if one of the reasons, like we wanted to do a Leslie Nielsen episode Yeah. We're excited about this, is that there's this major life pivot where he's like sort of going along and. Getting cast in roles but not breaking through. But then there's all of a sudden this watershed, holy cow, the guy is hilarious if cast in the right movie and in [00:27:00] the right part.

We love this story and I think we love it for the late career success. I think also for how important it is to not take things too seriously. I think it also speaks to the Hollywood dream that you show up and you just never know if you're ever gonna break and here's somebody who broke, you know, decades later than you thought he might have.

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: So does the lack of information about his interpersonal life. Move the needle one way or another, or is it, does it get back to the Nobody knows anything thing.

Amit: To me, it makes me a little suspicious that the guy that presented might be a little different [00:27:30] than the person at home. Yeah. But again, that's speculation.

And I don't,

Michael: no, but that's how I, I, I, I see that too. Yeah. And if our intuition is that, then I think that's fine. I, it just sort of puts things in a, you know, a little bit of context,

Amit: but we should equally give him credit for nobody knows anything. I mean, he goes from a log cabin to moving to New York and then his twenties.

And this is a lot of transitions going on. And as we've talked about, this whole life is about a major transition.

Michael: And I mean my, I guess my baseline assumption is that anybody who is making a career in LA where the entertainment industry, you [00:28:00] know, has all these sort of superficial qualities and culture to it, multiple marriages for a good looking guy who has some success and the wives get younger.

It's a little predictable.

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: You know, figures, whatever, and, and let's move on.

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: Okay. Category four net worth. In this category, Amit and I will write down our numbers ahead of time. We will then look up net worth number in real time, and the person closest to the actual number will explain their reasoning.

Finally, we'll place this person on the famous eng gravy net worth [00:28:30] leaderboard. So, Amek Kipur wrote down 25 million. Okay. Michael Osborne wrote down 20 million. We were quite close. Leslie Nielsen Networth 20 million. Ah, you win. I know. I'm right on the money.

Amit: Yeah, as it were. Oh, you, you said you were worried 'cause now you have to explain.

Michael: Now I have to explain how I came up with this number. Okay. Well, okay. So I didn't do any of the analysis you often do of comps or anything like that.

Friend: Yep. [00:29:00]

Michael: I have learned that actors are very rarely a north of 50 million, so I was tampering it down a a lot. He is very, very busy. From 1988 to 2005 or so.

Yeah. 1980,

Amit: arguably, but yeah. Yeah.

Michael: But I think he came to be known as a comedic property, right? He had market value in comedy movies.

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: Starting with a naked gun where people were just gonna keep giving him a shot no matter what. My hunch is that he was a lot of fun to work with, and I [00:29:30] think that he was a gamer for whatever kind of dumb script was thrown his way.

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: And these were cheap, kind of easy movies to make all these parody movies. And so I, it just looked like about $20 million to me. Oh, that's fair. That works. And apparently it was so I, you know, market forces. Yeah. Yeah. Market forces. Thank you. Good. Thank you. I apparently, I do know something about market forces.

Yeah. I. I can't believe you're still mocking me for using that term mock better. Prai. There's a little, there's a little bit of a dip. There is. There is. I'm hearing a little insult in it. Yeah, I mean, it's a little more, I know you get money. It's a [00:30:00] little, you understand my better than I do, but you know what, I'm right today, so not that well anyway,

Amit: so,

Michael: ah, okay.

Where is he on the net worth leader group? So he's

Amit: actually at the mode. The leaderboard. 20 million is the most common number that we've seen. Would you like

Michael: to define mode for our audience?

Amit: Yeah. Mode just means the most common number in a list of numbers. The most repeated numbers is that 20 is the most

Michael: common in our, well, we've

Amit: seen through our 80 something episodes.

Yeah, no kidding.

Michael: Okay.

Amit: Contemporaries in 20 million. Maurice Sinek, Gary Shan, Tom Wolf, gene Wilder, Eddie Money, Sidney Poitier. Rodney Dangerfield, which was just a few episodes ago, so [00:30:30] sitting just above that at 25 million would be Bill Paxton, Hank Aaron, sitting just below that at 16 million. Alan Rickman.

So at 20 million it actually, ah, okay. So wait, wait.

Michael: I wanna pause on the last one. Yeah. Leslie Nielsen died with a greater net worth than Ellen Rickman. Approximately $4 million more. Yeah. Okay. Well it certainly is consistent with the story we're telling. Yeah. It's not just late in life recognition of talent.

It is late in life. Material success.

Amit: Yeah. And I'll add some data just 'cause people like data. So the first naked a gun pulled [00:31:00] in 152 million, the second to 192 million. The third 132 million for a total of 476 million add to that airplane, which made 171 million. So that's a total of $647 million in which Leslie Nielsen was a leading man.

Wow. That's act, that's a big number, but it's not a huge, huge number. Yeah. 'cause he really only has four important movies as a leading man, which I think makes 20 to 25 million a reasonable number as opposed to a 50 to a hundred million. He did a few notable endorsements. The biggest one was called Red Rock [00:31:30] Cider.

This like Canadian cider that had this legendary commercials. Along with it, he also did Alamo Rent to Car, Arizona Reserve Bank, and Domino's Pizza.

Michael: Oh yeah. Right. All right, fantastic. Moving on. Yep. Category five, little Lebowski, urban Achievers.

Archival: They're the little Lebowski. Urban achievers. Yeah. The achievers.

Yes. And proud. We are of all of them

Michael: in this category, we choose a trophy award, a cameo, an impersonation, or some other form of a hat tip that we would like to bring into the [00:32:00] conversation. This is our A thing. You don't know them for award, or if you did know them for it, you forgot about it. Would you like to go first or you like me to go first?

I'll

Amit: go. Okay. I'm ready to blow your mind.

Michael: Here we go.

Amit: Okay. Pretty good. Uh, let's do a little word association and then see if you can just come up with a name here. I'm just gonna throw out some words. All right. Okay. Dorothy, uh, wizard Voz, no. Rose, uh, Titanic Blanche,

Michael: uh, uh,

Amit: [00:32:30] Dorothy Rose Blanche.

Michael: Yeah. Wait a sec.

Uh, okay. This isn't Streetcar named Dza.

Amit: No. Golden.

Michael: Oh, oh. Golden Girls.

Amit: Yes. So Leslie Nielsen was on the series finale of The Golden Girls. No. He was the last person who was not one of the four golden girls to actually appear on the TV show. The Golden Girls. No. So the entire ending of the plot of the Golden Girls, I did not know this or if I knew this, I completely forgot the way the show ended is that Dorothy, who was played [00:33:00] by be Arthur meets Leslie Nielsen, who is a character who's supposed to be.

One of Blanche's uncles who comes to visit, they're supposed to fake go on a date, but they actually ended up really falling in love. So the entire Golden Girls Series ends with Dorothy be Arthur's character marrying Leslie Nielsen, and the house dissolves of the golden girls. That is. Beautiful. Yes,

Michael: that is perfect.

I know. Oh my God, I can't believe

Amit: I haven't seen this. I can't believe I didn't learn this until

Michael: like two days ago. I can't believe this isn't [00:33:30] in the first line of the obituary. This is not Little Lebowski, sir. This is the Big Lebowski. This is, this is huge. Yeah. Wow. Good one. Well done, sir. Well done.

Alright. My little ob baky. Yes. This is selfish. You're not gonna care about this even a little bit, so we,

Amit: we do have an audience too. It's not just about me. Have you ever?

Michael: Well, okay, it's October. We're coming up on Halloween. Have you ever seen the movie Creep Show? I'm familiar

Amit: with it, but I

Michael: don't

Amit: know that I've seen that.

Well, you

Michael: should be familiar with it. It, it has come up on our show before because it was [00:34:00] directed by George Romero Okay. Of zombie movie fame. Check out the Zombie Mastermind and written by Stephen King, also starring and also starring Stephen King. This is the only time these two guys came together. The movie is sort of, um, inspired by fifties Horror comics.

It's a series of vignettes. It's short stories. Okay. Um, there's five of them. There's one episode in creep show called, uh, something to Tide You Over starring Leslie Nielsen, Ted Danson Galen Ross, who you don't know, but she's the female [00:34:30] lead and Dawn of the Dead and apparently even Richard Gere has a small uncredited scene as the man on the tv.

Okay, I love creep show. It is so weird and campy and, but actually kind of horrifying and. You seeing Stephen King and George Romero come together to work on this? Like, the cinematography of it is great. Yeah. And this is Leslie Nielsen after an airplane, before Naked Gun. So he's trending in this comedy direction and there's even sort of a comedic [00:35:00] element to the character.

So, uh, he's a rich man and he catches his wife cheating on him. Okay. Uh, and he. At gunpoint takes both his wife and her lover separately down to the beach and has, he's dug a hole on the beach and he buries them up to their neck and then he puts a camera on it on them and he's like, the tide's gonna come in.

You might be able to break free when the tide comes in. If you can hold your breath long enough for the sand to loosen, otherwise you're gonna drown. And he goes home and [00:35:30] films this. And watches it and drinks and cackles,

and then the zombies of these two people come and haunt him, and then they're covered in seaweed and it's grotesque and awesome. I. Okay. Happy Halloween. Still won't see it. Yeah, I, well, it's it your loss, sir. Okay. Creep show's a great movie, uh, and I wanted to bring it up today and I totally forgot Leslie Nielsen was in it, and he's really good

Amit: in it.

This reminds me of like Rodney [00:36:00] Dangerfield and Natural Born Killers. Yeah. There's a little bit of that unexpected.

Michael: I, you know, so I did try to watch some Leslie Nielsen movies. I watched Forbidden Planet. Yeah. Um, which is actually like a really important sci-fi movie. One of the things that didn't make it into my five things.

He is credited with perhaps being the very first treche. Did you see this?

Friend: No, no,

Michael: no. So Leslie Nielsen watched the first episode of Star Trek and wrote to Gene Roddenberry the creator, and was like, this show is fantastic. And Gene Roddenberry had pointed to Forbidden Planet as inspiring a tremendous [00:36:30] amount of the storylines in Star Trek.

Yeah. I mean, it, it, you look at it, and it looks like a pro Star Trek episode. He, he has like real cred and sci-fi and horror subgenres. Yeah. And well, he did that Dracula movie too, right? Yeah. Dracula dead and loving it. I mean these, these movies are really bad, but yes. Anyway, so be it. So be it. All right, let's take another break.

Category six Words to Live by. In this category, we each choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's own [00:37:00] mouth or was said about them that resonated for us in a certain way. You go first. Okay.

Amit: My words to live by are it was a day. This was an answer to a question that Terry Gross asked him on Fresh Air.

So the story that we've been repeating about Leslie Nielsen's pivot from serious acting into comedy is he said, my biggest break was a day I woke up and decided not to take myself too seriously. Something we have alluded to a couple of times now.

Friend: Yeah.

Amit: And Terry Gross said, uh oh, what? What was the day?

And he just [00:37:30] goes, it was a day. And I like that because it's, most of the time it was just a day. It wasn't an exact moment. Like we talk about these, these big epiphanies and these big aha moments. That's rarely true. Very often it's a very gradual type of thing. And we say, you know, a day that I decided to do this, it's never one single day that we really pivot.

It's kind of the ship is starting, is just turning. And so I like the fact that Leslie didn't say like, oh, this was a day that I woke up and had my coffee and. I was having toast and I [00:38:00] was like, that's it. I'm not taking myself too seriously. He's just sang. It was a day, which

Michael: me and it's of like ambiguous.

It's not a day. It was a phase. It was a chapter of life. It was a moment, you know? It was, it was a process.

Amit: Yeah. And so I find that a, a good word to live by in that just sort of, it's, it's not a big epiphany. It's not a big aha. The slow turn is very often what begets the big change, and that's why I liked it.

Michael: I like that. I like that you're drawing attention to it. 'cause it's a small moment that's sort of easily passed by. But [00:38:30] you, you're right, it captures our relationship to decisions and how things come about. It sort of gets back to the tossed aside, you know? Yes. It was a day, right. It, it wasn't like he said.

He took all these scripts of serious romantic leads and said, I've had it. Where's comedy for me?

Amit: Yeah. And I was particularly proud of it because it does, it does encapsulate the story as well. Yeah. Of this. Don't take yourself too seriously. Yeah. So it works on a couple of levels. Can we

Michael: speak to that for just a minute?

Not taking yourself too seriously?

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: I mean, I feel like that's good instruction that I [00:39:00] need to hear from my friends occasionally. Like, dude, you take yourself a little bit seriously here. Right? What? How do you interpret that as life advice? Do you? You know, because I don't know. I mean, there are some things I absolutely take seriously.

There's some responsibilities, there's things I'm wanting to accomplish, and then there's other places where it's like, I have no power. I, or I have limited power, and let's not overstate what I can and cannot do. What I cannot, cannot force or materialize or whatever. Yeah. You know? So how do you take

Amit: that?

[00:39:30] Comment. So as life advice, I think it comes from a pace, a place of privilege. Hmm. Right. Because when you're talking about it, this kind of in a career context, to me it's sort of like if, if you're okay. If you're secure enough, financially enough. Yeah. I'm just saying, yeah, yeah. The baseline and you've got some career under you, you're okay.

Yeah. You don't need much else. Just don't quit accelerating so much. Just kind of enjoy the ride, poke around. See.

Michael: Yeah, that's interesting to hear you put it that way. Taking yourself seriously. It's a, it's a nicer way of saying Don't [00:40:00] be selfish. Yeah. In some way, which I, which I think is always good advice.

Yeah. You know, 'cause we're all self-centered, selfish, you know, humans wandering around with egos, worrying about our own problems most of the time and not thinking about other people. Yeah. And that's what taking yourself seriously is. And,

Amit: and Leslie Neil's not another quote that I almost used, but is a, a perfect follow up to what you just said.

He said, I have no ambitions, I have no goals. I like people. I'm happy. It's that simple.

Michael: That's great.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: God, these are really good. I actually found a lot of good quotes from him too. Uh, I'll give you mine. I said, uh, [00:40:30] this one popped outta me. Doing nothing is very hard to do. You never know when you're finished.

That's funny. Which is funny, but I also like, to me, I heard something about procrastination in there. Yes. You know, doing nothing is very hard to do. Like procrastination is hard. There's a angst inside building and mounting. You're like, I gotta get to it. And you also never know when you're finished. Yes.

You know, I mean, I, I do think that it is good to reflect and stew on things sometimes, but. Doing nothing is actually very hard to do. It is

Amit: extremely difficult.

Michael: Very [00:41:00] hard to do, and you never know when you're finished, you know? So I will say before we move on, I might just, when we put this episode together, insert a naked gun quotes montage, because that script is absolutely fantastic.

Okay. Oh,

Archival: Drummond, I don't want any more trouble like you had last year on the south side. Understand that's. My policy? Yes. Well, when I see five weirdos dressed in toga, stabbing a guy in the middle of the park in full view of a hundred [00:41:30] people, I shoot the bastards. That's my policy. That was a Shakespeare in the park production of Julius Caesar.

You moron. You killed five actors. Good ones. It's true what they say, cops and women don't mix. Like eating a spoonful of draino. Sure. It'll clean you out. They'll leave you hollow inside. Thank you, your Honor. Protecting the safety of the Queen is a task that's gladly accepted by police squad, or no matter [00:42:00] how silly the idea of having a queen might be to us as Americans, we must be gracious and considerate hosts.

By the way, I faked w again. It's a topsy-turvy world gene. And maybe the problems of two people don't amount to a hell of beans. But this is our hill and these are our beans.

Michael: Moving on Category seven, man in the mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did this person [00:42:30] like their reflection? Yes or no? Uh, this is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment.

I didn't think too deep here. I didn't

Amit: either.

Michael: I see a confident man, an arctic wolf, if you will. I think that part of the reason we love this story is that it's just not hard to imagine some of the voices of self-doubt.

Amit: Mm-hmm.

Michael: Right. As he's, he never quite totally breaks through. He never becomes an Alister in the first 35 [00:43:00] years of his career.

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: So I, you, you have to imagine that between 1950 and 1980. Like Leslie is like, man, I hope I, I hope I make it through. Yeah. But it, it's not coming from a place of self-doubt. I think it is luck. I think that's how he understands his story when he does break out as a comedic actor. Yeah. And like he, he attributes this to the whims of Hollywood.

And I got lucky that Zucker Brothers found me. I wanted to do comedy. Here I am and I can do this. And he milks it [00:43:30] for all it's worth. You know, he does, uh, however many dozens of dumb movies in the nineties and the two thousands.

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: And the gratitude that he expresses from that is coming from like, whew, it broke my way.

But uh, underneath all of that, I see self-confidence.

Amit: Yeah. I'm pretty much the same way. He was a good looking man. Yeah, he really was. Okay.

Michael: So this is the funny thing about his career though too. You go back and watch all the pre 1980 stuff, it's just hard to see it the same way. You just keep waiting for these dumb gags [00:44:00] and they're not there.

But if, but you're almost like laughing at it now. Yeah. It reads very differently because of what happened.

Amit: Yes.

Michael: You know what I mean?

Amit: But, um, there's also, there, there's these signs of the masks that he's wearing. You know, that like, we've talked about this protectionism. Yeah. Maybe so, maybe there is some insecurity there.

Here's a dicey

Michael: interior.

Amit: Yeah. You know, again, back to the art thing, it always goes always, it always goes back to Saskatchewan. It does. Um, and you know, the four marriages are some questions there of Sure. Of, of his own. In our personal life, perhaps. Yeah. We, we just, we just don't [00:44:30] know so much. But when he gave an interview, like we said, very rarely did we sense we're getting a hundred percent his authentic self.

Yeah. But we do believe that we're getting a hundred percent authentic happiness.

Michael: I, yes, I agree with that. And I think whatever he's protecting, I'm not sure. It's like problematic. Yeah. You know, I, I mean, there's kind of a question like while we may have some. Qualms with, okay, so there's mystery around his interpersonal life.

You could maybe start to hint at, Hey, maybe something's not right underneath the surface. There's also a part of me that's like, even if something's not right, I'm not sure [00:45:00] everybody needs therapy.

Amit: Yeah. You

Michael: know, and I think Leslie Nielsen is a case of like, okay, maybe there's some broken pieces in there and he can never quite put it together with marriage, but.

I don't know that it's such a problem. Like some people, it's just how they're built. Yeah. I don't know.

Amit: I guess this is where I wanna bring up the OJ question.

Michael: Hmm. Yeah.

Amit: I mean, it's just gotta be a weird thing to live through. Yeah. I mean, like the third naked gun came out one year before the OJ murder. He responded to it.

Archival: It's sad. Uh, it, it's not, you know, it is strange, you know? It is. And it's very unusual. It's very unreal, [00:45:30] huh? Yeah, it's very unreal. Is it? But, uh, yeah. Well, the man I had worked with in, uh, naked Gun was charming and witty and, uh, there was nothing ever that would indicate in any way that he could possibly be, uh, uh, the person who would do that kind of thing.

Michael: And I mean, this is the thing is like, it's so hard to go back to 1988. In your mind, OJ was funny. That movie. Oh, he was great. Yes. Yeah. But we will never be able to watch that movie and be able to [00:46:00] laugh at his jokes necessarily. Yes. Very easily. Right. I mean, it's it's such a, it's just such a, I don't know, cloud over the movie.

Yeah. You know, in a way. And you, you almost have to tell yourself, I, I watched it with my 10-year-old son. Mm-Hmm. And, uh, I was like, remind me at the end of this movie to tell you something about this guy. And he, and we got halfway through the movie, he's like, you've gotta tell me, or I'm not gonna watch the rest of this movie.

So. I did. I paused it and I was like, so he killed two people And he is like, what? I mean he just did not know how to process that information. Yes. [00:46:30] Right. How could he, I guess like all of the Leslie Nielsen story speaks to the unpredictability of the entertainment industry. I. And this is just another piece of

Amit: that.

This is the worst part of it though. I mean, we're talking mostly about good unpredictability. Totally. But you know, I don't, it doesn't

Michael: totally touch him

Amit: actually. But I mean, they were friends, right? They had a working relationship for, what, seven years over the course of the three movies.

Michael: But maybe that tells you like how limited the friendship really was.

I mean, how could have close, could they have really been. Yeah. Or Leslie NIS potential, [00:47:00] or

Amit: White Bronco oral, or the potential sociopath that OJ was, he was that good at hiding it.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: You know? But still, I think it's gotta screw with the friends.

Michael: Yeah. No, I, I mean, I mean, I guess that's my point is, you know, for the concept of our show and our sort of interest in fame, I think neither of us want to be famous and I think anybody wanting to be famous.

Is in dangerous place. What's that? That Derek Thompson thing that I shared with you, the plain English host. He said something about what is it about fame? It's getting a one star review and everybody seems to want to [00:47:30] go for it.

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: Right. And I think this is why, is because it attracts and selects for unpredictable personalities and trust is in thin supply.

Shall we move on?

Friend: Yeah.

Michael: All right. Category eight. Cocktail coffee or cannabis. This is where we asked which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. This may be a question of what kind of drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them.

We are most curious about. You go first?

Amit: Yeah, sure. Okay. Coffee. [00:48:00] I think the exterior is, comes down if it's one on one and it's just coffee. Hmm. I think actually my theory on Leslie Nielsen is if you throw 'em the booze or you throw 'em the pot, that the exterior actually stays up. You know. Oh, interesting.

He's so good at keeping it and I think just actually having a one-to-one just kind of chat, you know, I'm like very curious about what it's like growing up in a log cabin and going from that to, you know, receiving Hollywood accolades.

Michael: Yeah, I mean that's what's interesting here is not necessarily that you went coffee, but [00:48:30] that you have residual curiosity.

You wanna know more here?

Amit: Yeah. I mean there's so much little public information about him. I just wanna know the guy. Not necessarily because he's famous, but because he was hilarious. Yeah. But I wanna know the guy behind the hilarity, which we're trying to do here on the show. Yeah. But I'm saying that obviously it was hard working, very working, very little information.

Michael: It, it was very,

Amit: very hard. And so that's why I kind of wanna complete this research with a cup of coffee.

Michael: Do you think you could learn something in that conversation though, that would be valuable? I mean, what do you [00:49:00] imagine? And I'm not asking you to project. Yeah. You just like to see where it goes. Yeah.

I just wanna get to know

Amit: the

Michael: guy. Yeah. You

Amit: know, because you only see little tidbits of it here and there.

Michael: Yeah. I really liked what you pointed to earlier. It was a day that says a lot. That's a great, those words to live by. That's a great call out because. It's in that subtext that you might actually learn something.

Right. But if you are curious about the guy, you actually do need to spend time with him. Anybody who's protecting anything, you kind of hang out with him long enough until they accidentally betray themselves.

Amit: [00:49:30] Yep.

Michael: You know where they accidentally reveal themselves.

Amit: Correct. Yeah.

Michael: Okay. Well I went in a totally different direction.

Yeah,

Amit: go for it.

Michael: Uh, I want to have a glass of scotch on the golf club terrace. So he is a big time golfer. Yes. Huge. Um, and he even did some like golf parodies. I'm not much for golf, but I do see that that is a certain place where a certain kind of person will let their hair down. Mm-Hmm. Um, enjoy sunshine, enjoy the game, and then kind of relax afterwards.

Friend: Yep.

Michael: And I'd like to see him use the fart machine a little bit. Okay. [00:50:00] I think, uh, I, I think it would just be fun. I think I'd also like to get him in a context and hang out with him where he doesn't necessarily. Feel like he's supposed to be fun. Right. You know, in the, in the interviews in the nineties and beyond, I do sort of see him performing on some level.

So I'd like the humor to come out of just a little bit more organically. I bet it's richer

Amit: and through an activity. Although it sounds like you're on the terrace, you're not actually on the golf course. Yeah. But I wanna go,

Michael: I want to have beers on the golf course and then scotch on the terrace. Yeah. So through an let's get [00:50:30] nice and tipsy.

Amit: Yeah. Yeah. And so through an activity I see that. I see that as a means to kind of get through to him. Totally. Right? Yeah.

Michael: And in his element, someplace where he's comfortable and that he's longing for. Yeah. You know?

Amit: So I think we're both kind of looking for the same thing. You're just wanting the humor couched around

Michael: it.

Yeah. But I mean, when I was throwing the question to you a second ago of what would you want to probe him on, what would you wanna learn? I'm not sure I would know either, but I would like to have an undirected conversation. Like to hang out. Just get to know somebody. Like

Amit: you get to know anybody.

Michael: Yeah.

And I mean my, I mean, my [00:51:00] favorite kind of conversations these days always start on the sort of superficial plane, and then somebody does accidentally betray themselves. Yeah, and I click into that. I'm like, ask about that real quick. And that's when you get into fun territory. Yeah, I'd like to have that experience with, okay, cool.

On the Gulf Terrace. All right. I think we've arrived. Category nine, the Vander beak named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said In varsity blues, I don't want your

Friend: life.

Michael: In that varsity blue scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain [00:51:30] kind of life based on a single characteristic. So here, Amit and I will form a rebuttal.

To anybody who's skeptical of how Leslie Nielsen lived. Let's assemble the arguments. Maybe we start with, yeah, well, we start with a counter

Amit: argument, I think. Yeah. And there's not a lot, I mean, there's this, there is the question around marriages. Yeah. You make stuff up

Michael: about the marriages and the family life.

Being in Hollywood for decades, I don't know. Has some, yeah. Your entire life. I mean since age 20 something. And I also think that if you grew up just shy of the Arctic Circle, yeah. I could [00:52:00] see a sort of like, I'm never going back. I'm staying in this. Perfect little climate in this funny corner of Southern California, and I'm gonna try and make it based on my charm and looks.

Yeah. And that is my life plan. And there is, I think we both intuit appropriately or not a little bit of an interpersonal deficit. Right. Like, I don't, I think he was friends with the Zucker brothers. I think he did have friends in Hollywood, but it just seems like he's in a culture of superficiality. Yeah.

And that that's a, that's a knock against, yeah. But let's go, let's go the case four.

Amit: I think this [00:52:30] is definitely one of the easier cases for it that we've done. Yeah. So the big theme that we've talked about was, you know, the phase two. Yeah. And if I'm gonna put that into something that's something to want

Michael: Yeah.

More universal

Amit: even. Yeah. It's the unknown. You know, you get to you like you really got to live out the unknown. Yeah. And if you saw your life and whatever, we all predict our life going one way and it goes a completely different turn for the much, much better. I mean, there's nothing more beautiful than that.

Michael: I think I have a one B to that. 'cause I, what I hear in your one A is interesting story [00:53:00] and life is unpredictable and I did not know it was gonna go here. And here we are. And

Amit: it, well, it gets better where you didn't see it getting better.

Michael: Right, right. My one beat of that is the gratitude that comes along with it.

Yeah. I mean, this guy really does feel like, man, I'm lucky. Yeah. I'm lucky. I got to be lucky. I gave up on being lucky, and here I'm lucky. Yeah. You know, like I, I, I love that. I want that for everybody, and I don't think you have to be a Hollywood star or a $20 million net worth death to, to get that right.[00:53:30]

Yeah. I, I think that part of the whole. Game here is to see the ways in which we are very lucky and and experience 'em. And then he does seem to take that in as much as the arctic wolf can.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah, totally.

Amit: And is there

Michael: more?

Amit: Yeah, I think two is, it may be A1C even. It's just the mechanism by which the unknown was done was by a loosening, you know?

Mm. It was finding more freedom by the Don't take

Michael: yourself too seriously. Yeah. Yeah. The surrender.

Amit: Yeah. That, that's not, that's not, not a bad way to put it at all. Yeah. You know, it's finding success in [00:54:00] freedom at the same time.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: You know, it's like you're, you're freed. You're freed from this constraint of how serious you have to take your career and how hard you have to push.

And lo and behold, that's where the golden rainbow is.

Michael: I mean, I think that's one of the things that's really attractive about this story is that you, we can kind of see an idea that does feel kind of universal and global in this like. I have to give something up somewhere. Yeah. I have to surrender the right thing and then when I do possibilities open up.

Amit: Yeah. A third thing I'd say, and this is a hard thing to say as as biographers [00:54:30] and historians that we may be, is, you know, he maintained that privacy. Yeah. The fact that we couldn't find a lot of things about his marriages and his personal life. You know, there was a lot that we could intuit by what other people said and other people saw, but.

That's pretty damn good to, to be that successful and still have that secondary life that's still your own.

Michael: And I do think comedy deflects, I mean, the fact that he put out a biography that is completely fabricated where he is like talks about his marriage to Liz Taylor and winning the Nobel Prize for acting.[00:55:00]

Yeah, he's got some really good stuff in there. In a way it both like acknowledges the curiosity of an audience and diffuses it. I was gonna go also as another argument maybe. I, I think it's, it's always interesting to me when comedy endures. An airplane came out in 1980. It is still hilarious.

Archival: You better tell a captain, we've got to land as soon as we can.

This woman has to be gotten to a hospital.

Michael: A hospital, what is it?

Archival: It's a big building with patients, but that's not important right now. Tele captain and I must speak to 'em,

Michael: naked Gun in 88 is still hilarious. [00:55:30] A lot of comedy doesn't hold up that way, and Okay. OJ Simpson was involved and maybe that makes it a little problematic.

Yeah. But I always feel like when, whenever a great comedy has a long shelf life. There's something underneath that, and maybe it's your thing. Number five, crossing institutional sort of boundaries. Boundaries. Yeah. I mean, I, I think that there's something about the, that humor and that aesthetic that's still sort of exciting in the sense that these institutions and these boundaries we have are all just made up.

Like [00:56:00] the life is just, you know, and then they,

Amit: they are dissolving before our eyes. It's Right.

Michael: Well indeed. Uh, and I don't know, it's, it's, it's so much of, it's just perception. Yeah. Right. And so to turn that into humor, I think does shine a light on the ridiculousness of it all.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: And

Amit: that's

Michael: a hell of a legacy.

Amit: Yeah. And he, you know, he lived 40 years after airplane came out and he got to receive a lot of that joy back. Totally. You know, we talked about people ask for autographs all the time saying, please sign it. Don't call me Shirley. Yeah. And you know, that can be an annoying to a certain extent, but you're also receiving that joy back continuously [00:56:30] for 40 years since that

Michael: movie.

I mean, I think part of the having a, a, a later in life kind of break is that kind of feel like you earned it. That's how it plays out. And so. You're happy to sign

Amit: those autographs,

Michael: you know? Yeah, totally. I said

Amit: 40 years, I meant 30,

Michael: whatever. Okay. Uh, so wrap it up. Yeah, I think so. I, we actually said a lot here in the case four.

It is a, it's a very compelling case. Four. Yeah. Uh, but we said late in life, success born out of not taking yourself too seriously. Yeah. And gratitude. And gratitude. We also said maintaining privacy. Uh, we said, [00:57:00] uh, comedic legacy and with that, receiving joy back and receiving joy back. That's enough.

Amit: That's plenty.

So, do you wanna do this? Yeah, I'll do it. James VanDerBeek. I'm Leslie Nielsen and you might want my life.

Michael: A rapid fire round, uh, plugs

Amit: for past shows. This gives me Angelo Lansbury vibes. Wow. Yeah. Interest the opposite way, how she was psych. This [00:57:30] charismatic, sometimes humorous, sometimes loud actor and ends up being sort of a soft, silent one. Yeah. And it's a reverse. Leslie Neils.

Michael: Yeah, I like that. I like that a lot.

Ah, but that's a good one. Uh, all right. I had originally thought more McDonald's because the similarities are tremendous. We go Alex Trebek, just 'cause I like great Canadians. I do like great Canadians. So, uh, check out, uh, quintessential Quiz Master and Dame Detective. We'll link to them in the show notes.

Here is a little teaser for the next episode of Famous and Gravy.[00:58:00]

Months before he died, it was reported that he was working on a memoir and a documentary. He said quote, today, it seems to me a lot more difficult to stand out if you want to be weird. Good luck.

Friend: Huh? Somebody weird who died in 2023. I mean, weird Owl is still with us.

Amit: Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you. If you want to reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at [00:58:30] hello@famousandgravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. Famous and Gravy is created and Co-hosted by Michael Osborne and me, Amit Kapoor.

This episode was produced by Megan Palmer with Original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks and see you next time.