091 Studio Insider transcript (James Lipton)

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Amit: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2020, age 93. He was the only child of a noted beat poet who left the family when this person was six years old.

No idea. Jack Kerouac Jr. Not Jack Kerouac Jr. [00:00:30] Who as far as I know. He's not a real person. No. Okay. On several occasions, he recounted a period of months that he spent in Paris earning a living as a me or a pimp for a

Friend: young prostitute. Oh, goodness gracious. You know, I think Paris and I immediately think George Plimpton, but I don't think pimp.

It's, it's not, it's

Michael: not former Pli uh, George Plimpton, he won his first professional acting job in the [00:01:00] 1940s when the live radio program, the Lone Ranger, cast him as the voice of Dan Reed, nephew of that Western's intrepid title character. I was gonna say Clint Eastwood. But Clint Eastwood is still going, not Clint Eastwood.

He was a knowledgeable interviewer who focused on craft while avoiding gossip.

Friend: Somebody from 60 Minutes. It's gotta be somebody from 60 Minutes. Walter Cronkite, not Walter Cronkite. Oh, uh, Dick ct. Not Dick

Michael: ctt. Who [00:01:30] actually, as of this recording is still with us. That's

Friend: impossible.

Michael: I'm telling you. He's in his nineties and he is still with us as of this recording on television.

He was Lampoon relentlessly by Will

Friend: Ferrell on Saturday Night Live. Oh. Oh, no. I know this guy's name. It's the inside the actor studio guy. Oh, James Lipton. Uh, James Lipton.

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is James Lipton.

Archival: What is your favorite word? [00:02:00] Honor. What is your least favorite word? The N word, no matter who says it.

What turns you on creatively, spiritually, or emotionally? Words. They're our most precious, natural resource. What turns you off? Humiliation, especially toward a defenseless child. What sound or noise do you love? Silence. Most underestimated quality of life. What sound or noise do you hate? The din that passes for fun in many public places today.

What is your favorite curse word? It's neither [00:02:30] obscene nor scatological. It's profane but offensive to someon, so I apologize when I'm really upset I say, Jesus Christ. What profession other than your own, would you like to attempt? I would like to be a premier dancer, but forever young and never injured.

What profession would you not like to do? That's easy, executioner. And if heaven exists, what would you like to hear God say when you arrive at the Parley gates? You see, Jim, you were [00:03:00] wrong. I exist, but you may come in anyway.

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And I'm Amit Kapur. And on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves today?

[00:03:30] James Lipton died 2020 age 93 category one, grading the first line of their obituary. James Lipton, who plumbed the dramatic arts through perceptive, mostly admiring interviews with celebrity actors as host of the Bravo television series. Inside the actor studio died on Monday at his home in Manhattan.

He was 93. Was that a dig dude? There's a couple digs.

Amit: Like was the whole thing a [00:04:00] dig? What do you mean say more? I mean, it just kind of sounds a little pejorative. The mostly admiring part. Part. Mostly admiring. 'cause that sticks out the most. That's the first thing that feels like a dig.

Michael: You know? It starts off nice plumbed.

The dramatic arts perceptive. I thought thought

Amit: plumbed was a negative word until I looked it up.

Michael: Because it means like you're going down into the plumbing.

Amit: Yeah, exactly. There's any connotation around the word. Plumb. Plumbing typically means filth, right? Of some sort. But no, it's actually like the definition of plumbed is to explore experience fully.

Yeah. Or too [00:04:30] extreme, so it's actually very appropriate.

Michael: But you're right, there is a little bit of like, are we in the muck here? Perceptive. I like the word perceptive. He is absolutely that. And this is the high compliment of this first line. Totally. Mostly admiring interviews. I have a lot to say on that.

I think one, yes, it is a dig and two. It's a dig because he was supposed to be doing something else. Like that's what I'm

Amit: wondering. Yeah. Right. Are they actually, or are they paying him the dues that he wanted, which is like, I am not a journalist [00:05:00] and I am doing admiring interviews because in this actor studio class, the criteria is, do these people have something to teach my students?

Right. So they are going to be already admired by the fact that they were invited onto the show to begin with. Why say this?

Michael: Like this is unnecessary commentary. I mean, you could have just said interviews that focused on the craft of entertainment or whatever. Exactly.

Amit: Craft was the word that I think belongs in here somewhere.

Michael: Mostly admiring has this, he was really deferential. He wasn't very good at this. You know, I, it's

Amit: a [00:05:30] journalist

Michael: attacking a journalist, I think. Well, but he's, he's not a

Amit: journalist. That's exactly my

Michael: point. And, and he was also very clear on that this criticism came a lot throughout the years of inside the actor studio.

Yes. Why are you not digging more deeply? That is not what I'm here to do. I'm not a journalist. I don't claim to be a journalist. Yes, I am here to focus on craft.

Amit: I'm a teacher on top of that. Yes. Like not only am I not a journalist, it's, I'm not even pretending to be one on tv. Yes. Yeah. So you and I are both aligned.

That one, this is a criticism two, it doesn't belong. I agree. And can we sidestep for a second because I don't think [00:06:00] everybody understands that the show. Was a class. Okay. So studio, rather than it actually being a show, the actor, just take a second to do it.

Michael: Uh, well, okay. Uh, I mean, we'll get into his whole life story leading up to the actor studio, but essentially what happened is that there is this thing called the Actor Studio, which was the way he describes it.

My favorite analogy. He said it was almost like an elite gem for great actors, right? It was the place where dedicated, well-known famous actors would come and train [00:06:30] and. The list is astonishing. Marlon Brando, Marilyn Monroe, Paul Newman, Pacino, and on and on and on. Like it's like the cream of the crop, but it didn't have a business model and it was threatened with a closing.

And Lipton came up with this idea of what if we offered a program that was a training program for students and MFA, which was actually a master's program. And they initially collaborated with the new school in the early nineties. And as part of this collaboration with the new school in New York, he said we should also think about a seminar.

[00:07:00] Where we invite these very well-regarded actors and people in entertainment broadly to participate in conversations. And why don't we make this a TV show? So he brought Bravo on board, Lipton organized all of that, and in so doing saved the actor studio from folding under. And then this is how this TV show was created inside the actor studio where he would have in-depth conversations.

With performers and artists about their craft.

Amit: Yeah. So what we're actually watching is just an edited version of a class.

Michael: Correct. He would also say [00:07:30] these interviews would go four or five, six hours sometimes, and we'd watch one hour, maybe two hours specials occasionally. Yeah.

Amit: Okay. I

Michael: thought

Amit: that was necessary, but let's, no, let's go back.

I, I think you're, you're right,

Michael: that is necessary context because mostly admiring interviews, they're taking a dig at the approach of interviewing where it's not wrong. But it just sounds like, why say that? It's just so unnecessary. Okay. I got one other dig here too. Okay. With celebrity actors, it's not just actors.

He's talking to comedians, he's talking to directors, [00:08:00] musicians.

Archival: Yes. Your father was a computer scientist. Your mother was a musician. When they. Spaceship lands. How do they communicate? That's a very good question. I like that you've answered the question. They make music on their computers and they are able to speak to each other.

And you see, I'd love to say, you know, I intended that and I realized that was my mother and father, but not until this moment.

Amit: So we just explained that the show was actually a [00:08:30] class. Yeah. So James Lipton wasn't. Really a television host. He was a dean and a professor, correct. I mean, who happened to have a televised class?

But my question is, does that belong at all here? His backstory, not his backstory, that this wasn't even really the pri, his primary function of his job.

Michael: Uh, so actually on this one, I'd give the obit writers and the New York Times a pass. I do think that the one thing this obit line is doing is saying, this is what you know this guy for.

Amit: Yeah. Which is what we've talked about repeatedly. Correct. Correct. So it's okay then [00:09:00] you in your view.

Michael: I, I guess, although I will say before you and I sat down to record my main. Point of frustration with this first line is that it does nothing to hint at his backstory, which is fascinating. Like, we're gonna get into it and I can't wait.

But this does not hook or intrigue in any way. This guy died, who you kind of know from that thing that was on Bravo. Yeah. And that's it. Like it's very dismissive of a, what I think is a very intriguing life. I'm ready to give my score. Okay, I'm giving a [00:09:30] four. I'm not going from 10 working backwards, I'm going from zero.

Working up. You get four points for the, you know, this guy for this thing, and I do like that they talked about plumbing, the dramatic arts through I. Perceptive interviews. Yeah. Everything else that it falls short in terms of the service he did to the entertainment industry, to the craft of acting, to what he did to save the actor studio and to just how.

Unbelievably [00:10:00] interesting. His life story is, it's missing all of that.

Amit: Okay. Uh, you've accused me of being too generous lately. I have. So, so here is my turn. I'm giving you a three. Alright. So I think we agree. We don't like, don't like we're plumbing the depths of Yes.

Michael: Of our grades

Amit: that we don't, I think we both agree.

We don't understand the point of including mostly admiring. Yeah. I like that you highlighted the celebrity actors versus. The entire field of entertainment. I actually like plus points for duping me with plumb because I think that's a very James Lipton thing to do because he was such a vocabulary guy.

Totally. [00:10:30] And unlike you, I agree that the job of the first line, which should be what we know them for, but I still think they could parenthetically say James Lipton, who has. Dean of the new school totally plumbed the dramatic arts in blah, blah, blah, blah. And yet another one of our celebrities who has died at his home in Manhattan.

Manhattan, well, he's very Manhattan. He is very, very Manhattan. Yeah. Like

Michael: Elite Fine Arts, New York.

Amit: Yes.

Michael: All right. Category two, five things I love about you here. Ahmet and I develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this [00:11:00] person was and how they lived.

Amit: I think you have to go first.

Okay.

Michael: Thank you. I don't even know how to contain my thing number one. Okay? But I wanna nominate him. Not award him, but nominate him for the Jonathan Goldsmith Award. For most interesting man in the world, Jonathan Goldsmith was the man who played the most interesting man in the world on the doses, commercials back in the day.

Amit: Stay thirsty, my friends. You

Michael: nominated

Amit: somebody else for

Michael: this. I can't remember who previous I did episode, I think it was Leonard Cohen. Might have been James Lipton, I think might win it. [00:11:30] It's what, what is so fricking fun about his story is how much sort of toss aside little trivia sprinkles his entire biography.

Yes. That he was the son of a beat poet and his father Lawrence Lipton was no. Joke as a beat poet, like he owned Santa Monica, the beat scene in the early sixties. His book and his, his landmark book, the Holy Barbarians, was huge. Correct? Uh, you know, James was a prodigy. He apparently learned to read at the age of one and a half and wrote poetry at three, had completed [00:12:00] three novels by the age of 12.

This whole, whole thing, that sounds very like Rushmore. Totally. This whole thing about him being a mech, a pimp.

Archival: A mech short from macro, uh, we would, we would say pimp, but there is a difference. Anyway, to make a long story short, she was beautiful. She was conis and she looked like those young women you and I have seen on the beach had ka those exquisite young French women.

We became great friends and one night I told her I had to go back to New York and she said, you're broke, aren't you? [00:12:30] And I said, yes. She said, problem solved. You'll be my mech. Well. She arranged it. It had to be arranged because if you freelanced in that area, they found you floating in the sun. And I began a new career as a mech.

Michael: Here's one here. I'm just gonna throw out a couple things 'cause these may come up later. Pilates, he was not just an early adopter of Pilates. He was friends with Joseph, Hubert DE's Pilates. He was friends with the guy he friends with. He was friends with the Pilates. With Joe Pilates. With Joe [00:13:00] Pilates.

Literally, that sounds like such a bar joke. No, he was actually friends with Joe Pilates. When Joe Pilates died. He and the community that was doing Pilates in the sixties in New York were like, we need to franchise this. And they weren't able to do it because Joe Pilates hadn't taken the necessary steps, but he was doing Pilates like.

Back when it was like straps and rubber bands in some random studio in New York. And shout out to your friend Pilates, by the way. Shout out to our friend Pilates, the Miss Scarlet thing. Yes. Uh, you know his wife, uh, [00:13:30] whose name I still not sure I can pronounce. It's a beautiful name. Keka Keka, I think is how you say it.

She was the model for Miss Scarlet on the clue. Board game on the cover on the board game on the Parker Brothers Clue game, the likeness of his wife. Like every time you're in a Walmart and you see a clue board like there's my wife. Yes. You know, modeling for Clue that he put on the very first presidential inauguration for Jimmy Carter.

Yeah. In 1976, this like major gala and that came because Leonard Bernstein, somehow he was friends with Leonard Bernstein, was like, James, please show [00:14:00] up that he had this relationship with Bob Hope as his producer for years and years. I mean, I could, you could go. On and on. There's all this little, like he was neighbors with Kurt Vonnegut and they would apparently copy edit each other's stuff.

Like, Hey, would you mind giving this a quick read? Like thi this comes up everywhere with James Lipton. The more you get into his life, just, it's unbelievable. Yeah, it's fascinating. So I nominate him for the Jonathan Goldsmith Award for most Interesting. And how does he fer against Leonard Cohen then? I think he fares better because the [00:14:30] way the little stories come up, like this is something I enjoy about our friendship.

Ahmed, you'll occasionally be like, ever, I've told you about my friend Bill, and I'll be like, no, and you will have my attention and you'll tell me about Bill. And Bill is doing something fascinating in some corner of the world that maybe touches on pop culture or maybe doesn't. This is story rich, right?

Yeah, it's, it's, it's dense with. Lemme tell you about this. One time I was in Barbados or I was in Paris with Bob Hope, or I was, you know, walking the streets of New York with Kurt Vonnegut. I mean it, there's [00:15:00] just so much density of stuff I want to hear about. Yeah. That makes for an unbelievably rich life.

Okay, great one. Alright. Okay. Number so on to

Amit: be from number two. Uh, he was a lyricist. This guy was basically, um, I mean, he was a rapper. He was a singer. He was Lin Manuel Miranda. Yeah, he was basically the former contemporary of him. So, you know, you talked about what some of his resume of writing novels before he was 12, he also produced Broadway musicals.

I mean, he literally was a [00:15:30] lyricist in that regard. Yes. But this is a man who loved words, and that's where I think a lot of the parodies and criticism come with. The Pompousness of James Lipton and the Will Ferrell impersonation in particular. Yes. Yeah. Correct. But one of his most lasting legacies was a book called Exaltation of Larks.

Yes. Which he wrote in 1968 and still was republished in 1993 by Penguin. But it's still in continuous print from what I understand. Yeah. And this is an exploration of. Phrases in LA in the human language, and a lot of it is like describing animals. A gaggle of

Michael: [00:16:00] geese, A pride of lions. Yes. What was the one we talked about?

An acre of dentists. An acre. Yeah. Some of these he makes up.

Archival: I finally compiled all of the original terms with their provides. That took a lot of digging because most of them are in middle English, and I fell in love with them, and then I began to invite my own. An acre of dentists in in the 15th century, they said, A rascal of boys.

So I said, an acne of adolescence, a lurch of buses, a slouch of models. An unction of [00:16:30] undertakers in a larger group, an extreme unction of undertakers. And I, I, I couldn't stop. It was like eating peanuts.

Amit: So he has these credentials in terms of Broadway and novels and this book that he wrote, but it comes across in his regular vocabulary.

Yeah. And so I just pulled a few of the things that I liked that he said. One is, this was in reference to Steven Spielberg and he says that as Steven Spielberg invited him to something, he would be there in no frames.

Archival: Yeah.

Amit: Right. Um, he talks about his father, who was a [00:17:00] great poet and deficient father. I just love that contradiction.

You would say things like, instead of saying that this was a beginning, this was entree, right? He has a bit of a Franco file, but the man loved words and words were what colored his life. Yeah. And I like that. I'm a guy who wanted like, I like music a lot more if it has good lyrics. Yes. And that's why I think this guy was a walking, talking example of a lyricist.

That's wonderful.

Michael: Alright. Number three, proto podcaster. Okay. Yes. This man is a podcaster [00:17:30] before everybody else. I don't think we recognize inside the actor studio as a podcast, and I think we should. It's frustrating that you can't get access to all of these conversations, but this is basically. A podcast, I think here are the similarities.

One, he had no previous training as an interviewer. The only reference he makes is that he did actually go to the year of law school. Yeah. And he said the only thing I learned in law school is you never ask a question that you don't have a pretty good answer to. Yes. He doubled down on his concept. This gets back to that first line, mostly [00:18:00] admiring interviews.

He said, this is about craft not gossip. And at one point the show was, we're gonna cancel this unless you listen to what our focus group has to say. The focus group had said, we want a little bit more of their personal lives and you've gotta get rid of the student segment at the end. And James Lipton said, I'm not doing it.

The show does not get canceled, but he sticks to his guns. That this proto podcast concept is about the craft of acting and it's not just acting as we called out. I like love that it was born out of a classroom [00:18:30] environment. Yeah. Like this, the mission here is to teach because I. More than anything else.

He is a lifelong student. He studied with Stella Adler, but later was like taking all these acting classes with the greats that that a all come from method and Stanislavsky and all that. But he was like sort of addicted to being a student and that's what a great podcaster is. If you ask me somebody who is a lifelong student.

Mm-Hmm. You know, who just loves the experience of learning and asking questions.

Archival: Who [00:19:00] was your editor on? Raging Bull? On Raging Bull. I, um, got Thelma Schoonmaker to, uh, edit the film and we, we've been editing every film since then. Are you in the editing room with the editor? Yes. Yes. Every minute. Every minute.

At the end of, of Raging Bull, this is what we see on the screen. So for the second time, the Pharisees summon, the man would've been blind and so forth, and the man replied. All I know is this. Once I was blind and now I can see John nine. 24, 26. What's it telling us, mark? Well, I, um, it's about making judgment on [00:19:30] other people.

Judging other people. Judging other people and saying, that person is a bad person. They did this, they did this, they did this. How do we know if we're not in, in that person's place, we wouldn't do the same. Yeah, that's all. 'cause I have a lot of people that say about me over the years, and I like, fine. The reality is, I, it's what I, that's what I did.

I can't run away from it. It's who I am, that's all. And what I am is up there on the screen.

Michael: Got one more thing to say on this before we move on. Okay. How old do you think James Lipton was when inside the actor studio started? [00:20:00] Uh, 68. Incredible. Amit. He was exactly 68 years old. Was he Really? Yeah. Okay.

Very well done. Isn't that, I mean, he's like been collecting social security for three years, like he's 68 years old when he starts his, what ultimately becomes basically a podcast, his entire obituary.

Amit: Yeah,

Michael: and I mean, I do think it is important. To understand it that way. If the New York Times is taking a dig in the first line of the obituary saying mostly admiring interviews, I think one of the ambiguities of podcasts is, are they journalism or [00:20:30] not?

I love and relate to him as a proto podcaster. Okay. That's my

Amit: number three. Wonderful. Okay. My number four, his relationship to the Will Ferrell impersonations. I'm so glad you brought this up. So I, I've gotta couch this 'cause we do have a category in which we talk about impersonations, but this is too important and this is too big.

Archival: When one thanks of the greatest all time films made by mankind in this century or in any other [00:21:00] one name keeps. Coming up again and again and again and again.

Amit: If anyone knows James Lipton for anything, it is for the Will Ferrell impersonation. Yes. There's probably a lot more people that know that than they do the actual show or have ever seen a full episode of Inside the Actor Studio.

Yeah, so what I love about it though is. James Lipton loved the impression. Yes. Most of the time if you're getting lampooned or [00:21:30] impersonated, you have a neutral relationship to it. Yeah. More likely a negative one. Yeah. But he loved it. He in fact said the words, I love it. I love it. I love it. He said, the worst day of his life was the day that Will Farrell decided to quit.

SNLI saw that. So what he sees in that impersonation is he saw basically an elevation of himself. Yeah. By Will Ferrell choosing to mock him that he was in fact elevating James Lipton. So it's not that you are making fun of me. It's saying you have chosen [00:22:00] me as a subject of impersonation and you have done nothing.

But elevate my profile and I have so much gratitude for that. Yeah. That is such a weird but special relationship to somebody who does an impersonation or imitation of you. It was just such a complete twist of fate,

Michael: and I take him at his word here when you rewatch them. Now, the thing that sticks out to me is not actually will Ferrell's lyricism or his diction.

Yep. It's, it's his eyes for me, the way he'll kind of like [00:22:30] hold his mouth open and stare out at the audience. Gravitas, right? Yes. It's so perfect. He talks about when Will Ferrell came on inside the actor studio, being in the makeup room with him. It was surreal to watch somebody next to me be put into makeup and become me.

Yes. You know, like, can you imagine? Yeah. So I, I just love that unexpected response. There is also something about the Will Ferrell impersonation. That to me, really speaks to the difference between ego and [00:23:00] confidence. I've been thinking about this a little bit with the Leslie Nielsen episode, the Way Leslie Nielsen presents as funny in all the interviews after 1980 mm-Hmm.

You know it, we talked about this is almost like there was an onus to be funny. James Lipton has a sense of humor. He laughs at himself and he knows how he's seen how he's viewed as this, you know, stodgy, funny, old academic man who happens to be interviewing the most famous people in the world. Yes, he can laugh at himself, but he's still a serious guy.

Yes. Right. And I think that ego confidence [00:23:30] balance in anybody is a kind of hard one to find.

Amit: Yeah. There's restraint. Yes. Restraint is a common, a common thread between those two things.

Michael: Totally. Totally. So I think that actually goes along with Will Ferrell impersonation. I'd like to hear you give one more to round out at our

Amit: five.

Okay. My number five is no pre-interview. Yeah. So this has to do with his style of how he ran that class slash show. Yeah. So traditionally in talk shows, there is a pre-interview to where the interview, we has a preview of the questions that are gonna be asked. And so that way [00:24:00] a conversation flows.

There's not any sort of big surprises. And then the interviewee or whoever their party is, has a say in the type of questions that they want asked. Correct. Right. So everything you're watching, you know, let's say it's on the Tonight Show, whatever is semi-staged Lipton, at least for him,

Michael: found that his method was to hold that sacred.

We don't know where this is going. We are out there walking on a tightrope.

Amit: Correct. And so that, that is the thing I love is that it imitates real life.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: Oh, it's just, it's the unknown. Yeah. It's like James Lipton loved to use this analogy of [00:24:30] like. Two people going up a ladder and they meet up on a tight rope.

And that is what you're actually witnessing when you watch that show. Yeah, but what I like about it is the complete unexpected.

Archival: The fact is that if I have had 400 guests or 500, whatever it is, I have been face to face privileged. To be face-to-face with four or 500 entirely singular souls. And because there's no pre-interview [00:25:00] and because we're up on that high wire with no net for three or four or five hours, we are on a journey together.

That is for me, the greatest privilege of my life.

Amit: And the second thing about this no pre-interview, that is something I'll say that I love, but I'll get into this a little more, is the onus is all on James Lipton to do all of the homework before a show. Totally. And so the guy talked a lot about that. His job was seven days a week, 12 hours a day, and it really, really was, yes.

[00:25:30] Like those around him said that this is actually how much he put into it.

Michael: I mean, there's some, not that you and I are necessarily spending those kinds of hours. Yes. But there's definitely some James Lipton, DNA, and Famous and Gravy, he. Must have enjoyed the research, I think the same way you and I do.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: You

Amit: know, like, I love, I love learning about all this stuff, stuff along the way. Correct. And so there's, there's something to love about that work ethic. Amen. And because I admire it, I can say it's a thing I love.

Michael: Alright, let's recap. So number one, I said Jonathan Goldsmith nominee for most interesting man alive.

Yep. Number two, I said [00:26:00] lyricist. Uh, number three. Proto podcaster. Very nice. Number four, you said relationship to the Will Ferrell impersonation. Yeah, and I added, which includes a balance between confidence and ego. Yep. And number five, you said? No pre-interview. Great list. All right, let's take a break. All right.

Category three, one love. In this category, we each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships. First, we will review the life data. So James Lipton two marriages, marriage [00:26:30] number one, Nina F Uh, 1954 to 1959. James was 28 when they got married. They divorced at age 33.

Marriage number two, Keka Turner, 1970. James was 44 and they were married up until his death. They were married just shy of 50 years. Okay. All right. No kids with either marriage. He made reference in his memoir to step kids at one point, but he didn't talk at length about 'em and there's nothing really on the internet about them.

Yeah. And he had no siblings. Yeah. Uh, this is [00:27:00] worth, uh, so in the other relevant data worth noting, we mentioned his father, the famous beat poet. Totally outta the picture. Yeah. Abandoned

Amit: them at when he was six or younger even.

Michael: Correct. And I mean, they were already struggling and his mother was a teacher.

And then later I think a librarian, you know, they worked very hard to make ends meet. He was working by age 12 or 13 to contribute to the family funds. Yeah. And he talks about seeing his dad maybe a half dozen times or so. [00:27:30] Yeah. So total, MIA dad deficient father. Yeah, exactly. So

Amit: what did you have? For one word, my one word, exaltation.

Do you actually know what the word exaltation means? No. So it's got two definitions, both of which kind of fit here. It's the act of elevating someone into power or a state of extreme happiness. Hmm. So I think it both works on both his relationship to the family as a child. Yeah. And to his relationships specifically with ke kai.

Yeah. So lemme go backwards, is the relationship with Kekai. [00:28:00] So you said before the most fun trivias that she is Scarlet and Clue or the model of Scarlet Crew. Yeah. So she actually was also a designer and illustrator, and she's like Irish and Japanese. She, yeah, she's beautiful. Yes. She's stunning. Yeah. And James Lipton did very well for himself.

He did very well for himself.

Michael: They're an adorable couple. They look great.

Amit: They are. Yeah. And so that's why I am, I'm giving in an exultation, this is the state of extreme happiness. Yeah. It just, it looks like a perfect. Pairing. I mean, we're not just assuming as based [00:28:30] on the pictures and the things that we see, but they were actually partners.

Yeah. Right. Like she illustrated the book for exaltation of Larks. Correct. And I love that. Like it's, my parents worked together for almost their entire careers. Yeah. And that's hard. Yeah. And I, but it is incredibly admirable and they have a rock solid relationship.

Michael: Totally. That, that is very self-evident.

And he is. Putting her up on a pedestal every time he mentions her name, like how lucky I am, how beautiful she is. It's just filled with gratitude every time he mentions his wife.

Amit: Yeah. And so the fact that they collaborated [00:29:00] together, that's what I see as an exaltation. Yeah. Right. Of, of this state of extreme happiness.

Michael: They also have a kind of, just for what it's worth, and it's not worth going into a love at first sight. Origin story. Oh, do they? Yeah. And he actually kind of stole her away from somebody else she was dating at the time. Okay. But they had this like wonderful love affair and were married like eight or nine months later or something.

Amit: Okay. Yeah. And then the other definition of exhalation was the act of elevating someone into power. And so this was basically what he was forced into. Yeah. By the abandoned father, [00:29:30] forced to become essentially a working child. Totally. But a working child actor, novelist, and hobby boy, I believe for the Detroit Free Press, by the way.

Both James Lipton and I from Detroit.

Michael: Oh, how about that?

Amit: You and James Lipson? Yeah, I was born there. We left by age four. But yeah, you know, there's so many similarities. No, I see. I see

Michael: it.

Amit: Yeah. I mean, Jonathan Goldsmith nomination and from Detroit, I mean, we're, he and I are just, just right there,

Michael: right there.

Amit: So there's my word exaltation. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. So I wanna throw it back to you. What is your one word or phrase?

Michael: So it's [00:30:00] interesting, I actually should have spent more time thinking about the marriage, but. Something that he said when he was on book tour when he was doing this memoir was how he discovered in the process of writing this book found family and that he had been on a quest for found family.

For a long time,

Archival: I thought that I was immune from family. My mother and I were alone, and I thought that was it. That was the unit, and I didn't think in terms of family, I certainly didn't think in terms of a male parent, and about [00:30:30] a third of the way through the book. It came this realization that all my life I've been trying to replace that.

Not only the father figure, but the whole idea of family. That was for me, the revelation of the book. I thought, oh my God, that's what I've been looking for.

Michael: I ended up going with Flying Circus. So Flying Circus. Whenever I hear Flying Circus, I think Monty Python. Yes. So I like that association, but I was like, what is that phrase?[00:31:00]

Actually I'd never clicked into it. So I went to Merriam Webster, an organized group of pilots engaged in public exhibition flying. He was a pilot. Yes, he was a licensed pilot and he is, uh, and an equestrian. And an equestrian, yes. Loved to ride horses. He's literally flying, but an organized group of pilots, I feel like that is the community he's in.

He talks about all these interviews and the people behind the scenes and the people on stage who he is in community with in high fine art [00:31:30] circles of New York, and there is a kind of flying high. Thing there. It's a bit of a public exhibition of flying, so his found family is ultimately a flying circus.

Okay, I like it. All right. Category four net worth. In this category, Amman and I write down our best guess ahead of time where they're gonna talk a little bit about our reasoning. We will look up the actual net worth number in real time. And finally, we will place this person on the famous eng gravy net [00:32:00] worth leaderboard.

Amit Kippur wrote down 6 million. Okay.

Amit: Michael Osborne wrote down 30 million. Oh wow. We are definitely on two different polls. We are

Michael: in two different polls. Okay. Before we look it up, I just want to say my reasoning a little bit. Yep. It needed to be a big number in my mind. Why? Uh, just 'cause he's got rich guy vibes.

Part of it was. Norman Mailer said, James, you really need to come by to the actor studio and learn about all these people. He had been a working actor, but he had transitioned into producing and directing [00:32:30] and Broadway musicals, and he eventually worked for Bob Hope, who was one of the most important celebrities of the 20th century.

I don't know if there's gonna be time to go into it, but he develops this very close relationship with Bob Hope. He is just floating in very, very elite circles and the vibes are such that, I don't know where it's gonna come from, but he is executive producer of Inside The Actor Studio. Yes. And inside the Actor Studio basically made the Bravo Network.

It had like 6 million viewers. At the start and it grew to like 70 million something

Amit: 25 worldwide. Oh, [00:33:00] there you go. Or something

Michael: like that. So I feel like he had a tremendous amount of leverage as time went on. Also, not very many dependents, so I landed at 30. So this is interesting is our reasoning

Amit: is actually not all that different.

Yeah. But you're better at this point. No, I think he has rich guy vibes and I think he earned a decent amount. So inside the actor studio, yes, it did make the Bravo Network, but it doesn't necessarily mean it's a commercial success. Yeah, right. There's not a lot of Proctor and Gamble trying to place themselves in ads in that show.

So I don't think, and again, it was not [00:33:30] his job as the host, it was his job as Dean and professor. Mm-Hmm. So I don't know that he was paid a lot, even if he was paid for 275 episodes, even if he was paid 50 grand. Or so that's what, 14 million?

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: Right.

Michael: So, but okay. When I say rich guy vibes, I also am assuming he handled his money.

Well, that's, I don't think you're invited onto boards unless you do. I mean, he rescued the actor studio,

Amit: correct? Yeah. So I think he earned it. I mean, I think he earned a decent amount from inside the actor studio. Yeah. Exultation of Larks, which [00:34:00] I've referred to a few times now, that was in print since 1968.

And now this is all adding up to 6 million for you. Yes. And this is where I'm gonna explain it. And then he is got rich guy vibes. Yep. And I think he spent it. Oh, I think this is a guy that loved France, loved horses. He was a fraile. Horses. Yeah. Loved horses. Yeah. Loved flying his own, it wasn't his own private jet.

Yeah. He not the finest restaurants. This is not in question. Yes. There's not much known about legacy or where he wanted to leave it. Yeah. There's not much evidence of charity other than the dramatic arts. Dammit. So I think he had it [00:34:30] and he spent it. This is very compelling. All right. And this is pure speculation.

Right. And then I also love to look up endorsements because they're so. Funny. Yeah. Uh, to me. So he actually did quite a few. Geico is probably his best known one. Of course. Course we can link to that commercial. Of course. Uh, he also did DirecTV, Toyota, LG,

Michael: and Intel. Alright. Yeah, it's time to get to it. You ready?

Yep. The final net worth number for James Lipton is $6 million. Is it really? Damnit. [00:35:00] Wow. Very well done on the nose. Unbelievable. I think. Yeah. I promise you that was confetti. That's incredible. Oh man. Samsonite, that was way off. That's great. Oh my God.

Amit: Uh, okay, so the good news Yeah. Is we have a tie. He is tied with Bob Einstein, our only other $6 million person.

Oh, outstanding. He did beat out Paul Rubins who was at. 5 million. Yeah, so that plays in number [00:35:30] 64, which is in the top 85% of Famous and Gravy. Okay. Right. Our median still stands at 20 million. Our minus per row average stands at 51 million and our mode is at 20 million as well. Correct. Correct? Yes. Both the median and the motor are at 20 million.

Alright, so at 6 million, he sits just below Ruth Bader Ginsburg and Neil Armstrong. Oh wow. Uh, interesting cultural figures. And just above Paul Rubins, but also in that category would be Fred Willard and Oliver Sachs.

Michael: Incredible. [00:36:00] I gotta say, really Well done, Hamit. Thank you. All right, thank you. Category five, little Lebowski, urban achievers.

Archival: They're the little Lebowski, urban achievers. Shit. Yeah. The achievers. Yes. And proud. We are of all of them.

Michael: In this category, we choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, and impersonation, or any other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of this person. I'll go first. Yep. On March 17th, 2006, James Lipton made an appearance on the Conan O'Brien Show where, [00:36:30] uh, he shotgunned a beer.

This

Amit: explains to me why I received a text message at 6:00 AM one morning a few days ago from you, happy

Michael: weekend. Yes. And he doesn't just kind of shotgun the beer, right? Like he, he pierces it and he's holding it up to his mouth, and then he like. Can't get it all down. So foam spills all over the place, but then he holds out his arms in the kind of like champion.

Yeah. Just did it. Like he straight up shotguns of beer.[00:37:00]

Archival: Thank you. Thank you. Dean Lipton. Dean Lipton, everybody.

Michael: The reason I love this, the reason I chose it is this different side of him. Like he knew how funny it would be as a man in, I think at this point, late seventies, eighties, to go on network TV for spring break and be like, we're shotgun beers. Yeah. So that's my little little basket.

Okay.

Amit: What do you got? [00:37:30] Uh, mine was arrested Development.

Friend: Perfect.

Amit: Yes. So he, uh, he had a recurring role in Arrested Development, and there's a few fascinating things about this. The warden. Yeah. He played Warden Stefan Gens, who was the warden of the prison, in which the father, what was his name? Uh, George Senior George.

George. George Senior Bluth. Yes. George Bluth, where he was in prison. So he was a warden there and he spent his free time. Daydreaming about becoming a screenwriter. So this was actually James Lipton's first acting in 50 years. Wow. [00:38:00] And, uh, UN Arrested Velman, which was well known for its celebrity cameos.

He was the first person on Arrested Velman to not appear as himself, to actually play as a character. So there's those kind of fun little trivia. So how he talks about how he landed on the show was, it all starts with Will Ferrell. Will Ferrell elevated him into a whole new level of pop culture. Uh, what I also love about it is the out of character ness of it.

So James Lipton is what he liked to say a lot about his interviews on inside the actor studio was he removed himself as [00:38:30] much as he could. Like he said, he spoke probably less than any other interviewer and interjected less. Than any other interviewer. He let it be about the subject. His role as Wharton Stefan Gens was to interject at every possible moment to try to push his screenplays on any character that would let him, uh, that would indulge him for even a millisecond.

Michael: You know, it's funny, like there is a kind of awareness that this is all fun from here on out. Yes. I'm working my ass off on the show, and I want it to be the best thing it [00:39:00] can be, but it is for the students and all this other stuff is just like. You know is gravy. Yes. All right. Category eight words to live by.

In this category, we choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them.

Amit: You go first. So in an interview in 2006, he was asked about inside the actor studio and about methods. So in

Michael: in the new methods or method, I mean this gets kind of ambiguous 'cause people talk about the method [00:39:30] even though it is methods.

Yeah. Okay. So perfect. I'm glad you asked that.

Amit: So let's say method, right? So correct me if I'm wrong, I believe it's called the Stanislavsky method.

Michael: Yes. But there are adaptations and interpretations of it and there's not any kind of claim. That's the only way to do it. But the proof is in the pudding.

Amit: Yeah.

So a, a singular method, if I'm gonna be a little reductionist, is taught. Yeah. Throughout that. So he gave a quote that says, talking about the show, he says, I've had 200 guests and 200 methods. Yeah. And that is my quote. Yeah. That is my words. To live by 200 guests and [00:40:00] 200 methods. 'cause what that speaks to is what James Lipton likes to talk about is the tributaries, the non singularity of the realm of acting is that you can study under a single.

Method, but essentially it's all customized to your own. So if I'm gonna expand that on, it's talking about the uniqueness of each individual as they perform a profession. So let's just stop talking about acting for a second, right? Let's say if we're talking about insurance salesmen, we're talking about engineers.

Everybody has their own method. Everyone may study under and get. A certain [00:40:30] degree of how to do a certain job, but the way that they actually do it is their own method. Hmm. There is nobody out there that is actually doing the exact same job. We are all doing different methods of a possibly similar job, and so I like that as a shift perspective on just how to think about employment.

Right, that we are not all doing jobs, we're all doing our own method of a job. And I didn't really think about that until I heard James Lifton say, you know, I've had 200 people who have studied under a single method perhaps, [00:41:00] but I, I've actually had 200 different methods on this show. That's cool, man.

That's a good one. Thank you. All right. Your words to live by

Michael: geniuses always think it's easier than we make it out to be. Then we, yeah. Okay. Yeah. I like the representation of we. Okay. I like that. You, you lock on then. We do. When you see real genius, uh, not the movie, the Il Murray, the IL movie. Yeah.

Wonderful movie with Maslow Holly Field. Yes. Um, not, not real genius. When you see actual genius on display, there is a seamlessness about it. Really, [00:41:30] really talented people make it look easy, and that's so confusing. Yes. You know, I mean, if you watch great. Athletes. If you watch great actors, if you watch masterful politicians or skilled entrepreneurs or you name it, people who like have a genius for a thing, display it with a seamlessness and they think in their mind it comes so naturally that it, they think it's easier than we make it out to be.

I like that. I like that reminder that if you, you know, want to recognize genius, part of what it presents [00:42:00] as is. It looks easy. Yeah. And it's not, you know? Yeah. I like it. Those are my words to live by. Very nice. Category seven man in the mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did this person like their reflection?

Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment. This is a hard one. You thought this was hard?

Amit: Yes. Oh,

Michael: dude, I went, yes, obviously,

Amit: no question. Hey, we're gonna get to have a little debate here. Do you find him believable? Very. You do?

Michael: Actually, that's a good question.

Lemme [00:42:30] sit with that for a second. It does seem, if you know the life story and the humble origins and the fact that he was not living a life of great wealth for a lot of his life, I mean, he is sort of trying to fit in Mm-Hmm. In, you know, what are very exclusive circles. Yeah. There is a kind of face you have to put on that.

And if I stop and think about. His origins and his destiny and where he landed. You know, as soon as you raise it. I [00:43:00] hadn't thought about this until just now, but yeah, actually. Maybe there is a little bit of an A front. Yeah, there's a There's a front. Yeah. That's what

Amit: I was concerned about is the guardedness of it.

Yeah. And especially a guy whose entire first line of the obituary talks about a show in which he encourages people to become unguarded. Yet he himself, with the exception of. Shotgunning an old style on Conan is a pretty guarded guy. Certainly on the show he is very guarded. And so there is that little bit of contradiction.

There is this like, I wouldn't say holier than thou, 'cause [00:43:30] that's unfair, but let's say, let's go back to what you said, rich guy vibes. Yeah. That he kind of has,

Michael: it's not, it's not even just holier than thou. I mean, you see him as being a kind of foot soldier for exclusivity. Yes. In a way, you know?

Amit: Totally, totally, totally.

Archival: Stella was. I think she was the best teacher I ever had of anything. At the core of it was this steely technique, which she had acquired over many years, which she had [00:44:00] acquired, in fact, from Stanislavsky himself. And then she came back to New York and she. There were all of her colleagues at the group theater.

This was a group of course that had changed everything in America. The group theater had brought the Stanislavsky system into America, and uh, they were waiting for, and they said, well, what did the master have to say? And she said, he's abandoned emotional memory. Now that may be meaningless to anybody listening to this, but to an actor it [00:44:30] has some meaning.

Amit: And so that's what, that's a really point. That's good point. I'm wondering and And he was also this big Fran Aile. Yeah. Right. Like I just think he completely regrets that he was like, born and lived in America. You're onto

Michael: something here, damnit. You're really onto something here.

Amit: Yeah. The guardedness vibe.

The guardedness is actually

Michael: kind of, it's a little more superficial than I care to admit.

Amit: Yeah, I mean, the phrase I wrote down is he's trying really hard to be himself, so I don't know if I'm gonna answer the binary, and I don't do this very often. Of does he like his reflection of the mirror? I think the guy is absolutely [00:45:00] self-accepting.

I think he, he, he's got gratitude. I think he's got gratitude. I think he likes himself, but I think he's trying too hard to be himself. And so with that, I said no to man in the mirror.

Michael: It's a really, really compelling case and I've, I think you're in my head about it now. Oh boy. Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right.

I mean, if, if I were to flip my answer theoretically, yeah. If I were to hypothetically say, you've won me over with your argument, I don't want that to be [00:45:30] misinterpreted as actually this guy is full of insecurity or No way. Right. Yeah. But there is a playing a part here. Yes. That. When you look at it, it does lend itself to parody.

It's almost like if you were gonna go into a factory and say, we need to create somebody who's gonna be the dean of an art school for actors, what would that person look like? This is what you would come up with. Yes, exactly right. I mean, this is, he was go into wardrobe and come out looking like himself, like James Lipton.

[00:46:00] Yeah. I mean, he is a perfect guy for that moment in a way. Yeah. I, I, I am gonna change my answer. I think you're right. I don't think he likes his reflection. I, I should have been a lawyer. Turned. Yeah. You should have been turned. Actor turned. Dean, not too late. Look, you, you've, and you know James Lipton didn't find his calling until 68 years old.

I can't wait. That all I'm saying is there's time. All right. Category eight, coffee, cocktail, or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. What do you got? [00:46:30]

Amit: I got cannabis with James Lifton.

Michael: I had the same thing.

Amit: Okay. Poor, poor. Jimmy's gonna be gonna be pretty high.

Michael: Exactly.

Amit: I think he'd enjoy that. If shotgunning that old style was any indication, then he may be up for this. How did you reason this out? Uh, to me it's the drive I. That I'm really, really curious about, huh? Right. So we talked about the interview prep that he did what he claims to be 12 hours a day, seven days a week, just to get ready for each of these interviews.

This man had incredible devotion to his job, which was [00:47:00] means incredible devotion to his love of the craft. Yeah, I wanna know where the hell that comes from. Like that is something that is. So opposite of what? Like I get to experience. Think I have a theory on it though. Okay. I

Michael: think it's joy of learning.

Yeah.

Amit: You think he has that much joy of

Michael: learning? I think, I think, I do think that he is an educator. This is why he was dean of that school for so long. I think he sees his role in life to represent what it means to be a lifelong student and to admire a a, a craft deeply. And I think he sees [00:47:30] every book he reads and every article he reads and all the research he does as furthering that mission and.

I, I get into a flow state with that. I relate to that that much. I think I would, man, I mean, I love doing our podcast for exactly this reason. It reflects back on things that I'm seeing that reveal a deeper humanity. Those points where I can relate and maybe I don't achieve excellence or genius. I don't think I'll ever make it look easy.

Yeah. I don't make anything look easy. I can't make everything look hard, but I connect, you [00:48:00] know, I connect with my own mind. I connect with somebody else's experience. I get lost in story. I don't see that as burdensome. I, I, and I, I do think that to be a great educator, you do have to be a lifelong learner.

Yeah. But to have that

Amit: degree of drive. So that's, I mean, that's where I don't think, what else is he doing? Uh, going to France eating cheese. I don't doubt your speculation Yeah. In your answer, but I wanna hear it from him. And because of what I said in man in the Mirror about guardedness, I don't think coffee is gonna gimme the direct answer.

Yeah. I obviously he's a pretty good drinker, so I don't think, I think he's gonna keep up the [00:48:30] guard. Right. But I think, but it's gotta be sort of that kind of free flowing creative weed. Yeah. That I think he's gonna explain to me a little more exactly what that drive is, and maybe I'm just not like, curious about how he gets that work ethic.

But like why he loves that craft so much. Hmm. Yeah. And I think he would have a very colorful, lyrical answer to it.

Michael: I agree with that. My reason for cannabis is not so different. It is not born quite as much, out of curiosity, so much as I think I would really enjoy his company. So it's still very [00:49:00] much in my head where you had to say in man in the Mirror that there is a guardedness and that he is kind of playing a part.

I think I enjoy the part. Yeah. You know, and I've been around people who are playing a part kind of like that, and I. I enjoy their company. If they have a big basket of stories waiting in the weeds and you are able to pluck some of them out and like, did I ever tell you about this time with that person?

I, I would love to just have a kind of enhanced [00:49:30] and embodied experience. I was kind of thinking edibles. Might be the right way to go here. I don't know. This category's always a little problematic for me as a sober guy. Yes. Uh, of everything I've given up, um, kind of miss weed the most, you know, but yeah, you did have seven cups of coffee this morning.

So of the two out of three things that I no longer partake in, but of everything I miss, I miss pot the most. And this is one of those figures where I think I would just. Enjoy it. I think I would enjoy almost like if he is [00:50:00] engaged in some sort of pretend about who he is and the circles he inhabits and the, the, you know, the life he's living.

Yeah. I'm here for that. I, I don't know, we all have an exterior that we're playing and so this is a story about who he is born out of insecurities and maybe born out of even childhood trauma. Who knows? I don't know that I have a problem with it, and I think I actually would enjoy it, and I just think.

The stories would be incredible. I mean, they are that there is no doubt we, we have barely touched the tip of the iceberg with the [00:50:30] kinds of people who he got to know. One of my favorite parts of this book is he talks about how Bob Hope. I don't know much about Bob Hope, other than he was a super big deal.

Yeah. Bob Hope because of his profession, was always like winding down at 11 or 12 and he would say, you were good to go for a walk. And he, Lipton talks about going on these walks and Paris and Beijing and Shanghai and London like Palm Springs, like these midnight walks with Bob Hope, where he would let his guard down and they'd have just this mono and mono [00:51:00] conversation.

Yeah. You know? Anyway. I just want the hang. Yeah. You know. Okay. Category nine, the Vander Beak final category named after James Vander Beak, who famously said in varsity blues,

Archival: I don't want your life.

Michael: In that varsity blue scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kinda life based on a single characteristic.

So here Ahmad and I will form a rebuttal to anyone skeptical of how James Lipton lived. Why wouldn't James want James life? Yeah, that's an interesting question. What, you know, 'cause you and I like to [00:51:30] start with a counter argument before we like sort of Yeah. Make the case. I mean, I mean it's the heirs about him.

What do you mean? The pompousness?

Amit: Yeah, the

Michael: perceived

Amit: pompousness. He doesn't want to be read as pompous. Yeah. So to be like that academic. Yeah. You know? Yeah. And maybe that's a better word. It's like eggheady. So Eggheady. Yeah. So eggheady and academic.

Michael: I think that's fair. I mean, it's so much so that it's a joke.

Yeah. And a, a well established joke. In fact, it, the joke is almost bigger than, than the reality. Yes. Yeah.

Amit: Anything else? Uh, I mean, I, [00:52:00] I've said myself at the work week. I'm just so like, baffled by it. Yeah. Um,

Michael: okay, so this is maybe part of the counter argument too, and maybe this goes back to what you were saying earlier, the work week.

Maybe he's working a lot. These are hard hours, but I, is it. That a life of the mind has limited appeal to you. 'cause this does seem like a life of the mind. It does have limited appeal to me. Okay. So maybe that's part of it too. I, so it's not just that he's pompous, it's actually that he is maybe gone a little too far and life [00:52:30] of the mind.

Yeah. I think that

Amit: that encompasses both of those pretty well.

Michael: Yeah. Well then let's mount the counterargument. Yeah. Here's what I like about the idea of life of a mind. Okay. It's not so locked in with what's going on with the body. I want to be able to have interest and explore interests and indulge in curiosities that are not.

Only locked into what my body is capable of. This is something I absolutely think about with aging. Correct. And longevity. And that's what Limitlessness is. Totally. Yes. And I don't know if we've [00:53:00] emphasized it enough, 68 years old when he finally like breaks through into public consciousness that Yes.

That we've talked about late in life successes. This is like one of the latest in life. I mean, Leslie Nielsen was 54 for Christ's sake. Yeah. 62 when he did naked gun. Yeah. He is older than that. Can you think of anybody else who compares in terms of, we didn't really know who this person was. I mean, I guess it's the, the guy that played Jonathan Goldsmith, maybe?

Yeah. Well, I'm sorry. No, Jonathan Goldsmith was his name. He played the most interesting man in the world. He played the most interesting man in the world. So the [00:53:30] first thing I would say is that to have interest and curiosity, if you ask me. Very, very desirable.

Amit: I think if you put it in terms of limitlessness, I could totally see that.

Yeah. Right. And I think for him it's also like he loved it so much. Yes. Right. And there is, there is evidence true that like there is dopamine released every time you learn? I think so. You know, if the guy is really that devoted in learning that much, there is actually a felt happiness. Within him.

Michael: I also think, I don't know if he arrived in a [00:54:00] place of wisdom, but I think he's seeking that.

If you ask me centering curiosity in your life, no matter what else, zero out everything else and say, I'm gonna center curiosity in my life. I, I, I'm very persuaded at this point in my life, always a good

Amit: idea. One thing also that didn't come up yet is his lifelong wish was realized. What he talked about endlessly that said that like his work is final or, or the greatest day of his life, I believe was the word he used, is that when he has a guest on inside the [00:54:30] actor studio who is actually a graduate of the program and was in the class.

Yeah. And that finally happened with. Bradley Cooper, right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. And every interview he ever gave leading up to that was always like, the greatest day of my life will be this. Yeah. And if you are somebody who literally says, the greatest day of my life will be some hypothetical. And that hypothetical is realize, yeah, my God, man.

Michael: Like that's pretty huge. Very few people can claim that. I'll give another thing. I mean, I, I do think while there may be some [00:55:00] pompousness and maybe even some hiding behind a kind of character here, this is still a fascinating life.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: The stories he has, I mean, don't you want that? Like, don't you want a unbelievable, limitless bank of stories?

Yes. And bear witness to stories and firsthand knowledge of stories. Yeah. Right. Like the. This was fun.

Amit: Yeah. And he, and he had fun with it. So there was the, there's the obvious things that were fun. Yes. Like producing presidential galas, going to China to produce the first special over there with Bob Hope.

Yeah. [00:55:30] Writing musicals, all these things. Those are fun stuff. But even having fun with his own character along the way later on in, in Arrested development in The Simpsons on Conan and all that. Yeah. Voice a

Michael: bolt on that, uh, comment or that, that cartoon. Yeah. Yeah. So fascinating and fun. Yeah, I, I also think there's a strong legacy argument that 20th Century is defined by TV and film, and he got some of the greatest producers, actors.

Creators of all time in a very [00:56:00] intimate setting. Like what a collection. Yeah. You know, what a

Amit: archive and the moments that came out with that. We barely got to even scratch that at all, but totally. The, the Jack Lemon admitting he's an alcoholic, Dave Chappelle explaining why he left the Chappelle Show for Africa.

Spike Lee crying for probably the first and only time on television. Totally.

Michael: Like, I mean there, there were real genuine revelations and lessons and I think that's what I mean by archive. Like what a gift, what a thing to have done. Yep. So I think that's it. Okay. I think those are the arguments. So what do we say?

We said that's a lot

Amit: to wrap up,

Michael: isn't [00:56:30] it? It is. We said limitless. I like limitless, limitless curiosity. Let's just go with limitless curiosity as thing number one. Thing number two, we said rich bank of stories. Like just a fascinating life. Yeah. And fun. Fun ing and fun life. Number three, realized his ultimate accomplishment.

And number four, a legacy of honoring a craft that he was in love with.

Amit: Yeah, with the archives, pretty darn good. Okay. Are you gonna do it or am I I'll

Michael: you take it?

Amit: Okay. Uh, James VanDerBeek. I'm James Lipton and you might want my life.[00:57:00]

All right. Speed round plugs for past shows. What do you got? This got all Maya Angelo written all around. Oh, interesting. After like, thought, thought. So one dimensional and then you get into just like paragraph two. Yeah. And you've got, oh my god, vibes.

Michael: Uh, I wanna go with Roger Ebert, which I haven't listened to in a while, and I know there's at least one line in there that I address, but I, I think the Roger Ebert episode is a good one.

Sorry. Maya Angelou was called [00:57:30] Poetic Justice. Roger Ebert was called Darling's critic. Darling's Critic. So, uh, check out Poetic Justice with Maya Angelou and Darling's Critic with Roger Ebert. Here is a little teaser for the next episode of Famous and Gravy.

During the course of his career, he overcame numerous personal trials. He was arrested several times. He weathered serious tax problems, a heart attack, and two open heart surgeries.

Friend: Uh, let's see, of course, I think getting arrested a [00:58:00] bunch is, uh, Lenny Bruce.

Amit: Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you. If you want to reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. You will hear back from one of the two of us in our show notes. We include all kinds of links, including to our website and social channels.

Famous and Gravy is created and Co-hosted by Michael Osborne and me Amed Kaur. This episode was produced by Megan Palmer with original music by Kevin Strang. [00:58:30] Thanks and see you next time.