092 Acerbic Comedian transcript (George Carlin)

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Amit: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. To participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. Now here's the quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2008, age 71. He grew up with his mother and his older brother on west hundred 21st Street in Manhattan.

Friend: I'm gonna say Woody Allen, but he's not dead.

Michael: Well, Mel Brooks is still with us and he grew up in Brooklyn, but it's [00:00:30] not Mel Brooks. I'm so happy to say. As of this recording still with us. He dropped outta high school and joined the Air Force, and while stationed in Shreveport, Louisiana, he worked as a radio disc jockey.

Friend: I think of that guy. Wolfman Jack. Wolfman Jack.

Michael: Not Wolfman Jack. Is it not Wolfman Jack? Everybody keeps guessing. Wolfman Jack. During the course of his career, he overcame numerous personal trials. He was arrested several times, all of which were dismissed. He weathered serious tax problems, a heart attack, [00:01:00] and two open heart surgeries.

Friend: We still got Willie Nelson with us, don't we?

Michael: As of this recording, I'm very happy to say we still have Willie Nelson with us. In 1978, the Supreme Court upheld an order from the FCC that prohibited the words as indecent from his bit. The seven words you can never say on television. Oh, George Carlin.

Friend: That's George Carlin.

Oh my goodness. George Carlin.

Michael: Today's dead celebrity is George [00:01:30] Carlin. Wow.

Archival: And I discovered one day that I could say I am. Greater than the universe. Lesser than the universe and equal to the universe. And these are the proofs. I'm greater than the universe because I can think about it and contain it within my head.

Okay, that's the universe. It's in here. I'm lesser than it because that's. Obvious and I'm equal to it because all of the atoms in me are the atoms that make up the universe the same atoms identically are. So there I am. And what [00:02:00] is the fear? What's the punchline, George? You got it. It's a long punchline.

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And I'm Amit Kapur. And on this show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century, and we take a totally different approach to their biography. What didn't we know? What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us about ourselves [00:02:30] today?

Died 2008, age 71.

Category one, grading the first land of their obituary. George Carlin, whose astringent standup comedy, made him an heir of Lenny Bruce, who gave voice to an indignant, counterculture, and assaulted the barricades of censorship on behalf of a generation of comics that followed him. Died on Sunday in Santa Monica, California.

He was [00:03:00] 71 and lived in Venice, California. Okay. Where to start, Ahmed? Where to start?

Amit: I wanna start easy and build our way up if I don't mind. What do you think about this? Who's who thing? George Carlin. Who's astringent standup comedy comma who gave voice. Is that allowed? That's a good question.

Michael: It

Amit: reads funny.

It reads really funny. This is like third grade grammar, or it's so advanced PhD level grammar that I'm not even getting it.

Michael: It's a complicated sentence, but I don't know. Doesn't that feel kind of apropos? [00:03:30] Like he's a complicated guy. They want to get a lot of stuff in here, but he's also a language guy.

That's a good point. Overall, my first impression is I'm glad they went for it. Like they did go for something here. Whether they got it right and whether they got it perfect and whether it's great. I have gripes with this, but I do like the sort of rule breaking in the first line of George Carlin's obituary.

So far I was actually pleased. Let's start with astringent.

Amit: Yes. So I had a premonition. That there was gonna be the [00:04:00] word acerbic before I even read the first line. I was like, they're gonna use the word either acerbic or cantankerous, and I didn't see either of them, but astringent is pretty much the same thing.

Michael: It's in the same ballpark as those words. I expected the word fierce in Tina Turner's first line of her obituary. Yeah, it wasn't there, but sort of similar thing. What do you think astringent means?

Amit: Exactly that. Like bitter.

Michael: So I, I went and copied the dictionary definition. Okay. I thought this was a good opportunity to go to the dictionary.

Here's what we have two definitions causing the [00:04:30] contraction of skin cells and other body tissues. Like cringey. Yeah, totally. It's cringey. And then a secondary definition is slightly acidic or bitter. Oh,

Amit: there I go.

Michael: Yeah. I like it. I like that they went for a word that's less familiar that. Has a kind of quality that you feel the word astringent.

It does feel cringey. It does feel like the skin is tightening, so I was happy to see that word. I

Amit: agree with you on

Michael: that. Let's go to the next thing. Air of Lenny Bruce.

Amit: Mm-Hmm.

Michael: This is actually [00:05:00] probably my number one problem with this first line of the obituary. I think. Lenny Bruce is a relevant and smart person to invoke, and I think that there is a truth to the fact that Carlin was a sort of heir to Lenny Bruce.

However, Lenny Bruce is not that familiar of a figure. Lenny Bruce is not relevant in 2008, and George Carlin today is still very relevant. So. I feel like they actually undercut Carlin's legacy with [00:05:30] this comment.

Amit: I agree. 'cause it makes him sound more like a continuum of something else rather than a new inventor of form.

Michael: That's right. And I do think Linny Bruce paved the way. George Carlin is the Play-Doh to Linny. Bruce's Socrates, perhaps. Yes. But I also feel like we're not quite giving Carlin enough stature, including Lindy Bruce here. All right. Who gave voice to an indignant counterculture? How do we feel about that indignant?

Counterculture me likey. Really? Yeah. You don't think so? Okay. Are they calling the counterculture [00:06:00] indignant, or are they talking about a subset of the counterculture that is indignant?

Amit: I think it's more of the subset, and indignant means like an annoyed counterculture rather than a very active fierce. To go back to Tina Turner counterculture.

That's one that's annoyed at things that are unfair or outta authority.

Michael: I agree, and it's a certainly a better word than resentful. Resentful is a little bit too sort of reactive and blank. Indignant is like, we have a target for our frustration and resentment.

Amit: Yeah. So I'm good with it. Are you [00:06:30] implying you're not?

Michael: No. Now that we're talking about it, I really like it as well. All right. Assaulted the barricades of censorship on behalf of a generation of comics that followed him. I've got issue with this. How did he assault the barricades of censorship?

Amit: Oh

Michael: seven. Dirty words.

Amit: Yeah, but it was censored. It basically in the Supreme Court case that followed, it essentially upheld censorship.

Yes,

Michael: but he challenged it. I actually love this. I think that he is throwing rocks at a wall. He doesn't move the wall, but he's throwing rocks at it. And [00:07:00] I do think it's really appropriate to say on behalf of a generation of comics that followed him, they're pointing towards his real legacy here, which he got up on stage.

Yeah. And said things that were dangerous, said things that challenged people, said things that were risky. And so. I actually quite like it. I don't understand why you don't

Amit: so assaulted To me, at least what I took away from it means victorious over. Oh, interesting. You're seeing it as more as just the challenging of

Michael: Yeah, and I also do think that there is victory.

He did [00:07:30] make it. Okay. To at least say a lot of things on stage. Not even, okay. We've been talking about this a lot in recent episodes about permission structure. He created a permission structure for very, very dangerous things to be said on stage. Yeah. And he, in that way, is an heir to Lenny Bruce, who kind of began that project in earlier generation.

So no. So I actually love this. I actually love the assaulted, the barricades of censorship.

Amit: I just think there could have been a better word. I see what you're saying, but I think there's a better word than assaulted. [00:08:00] This is the most deep we've gone phrase by phrase.

Michael: It required it though. I mean, one, we're not a hundred percent sure.

This is a real permissible sentence. Yes,

Amit: right. It assaulted the barricades of first lines

Michael: of grammar Without a doubt. Yes. And so there's that. And then they packed a lot in as well. They should. This is an incredible figure in American history and so like they had to go for it and I'm kind of glad they did.

I think I have my score. Do you wanna go first? Yeah. I

Amit: went with the seven. Didn't like the Lenny [00:08:30] Bruce and uncomfortable with assaulted, but I think you really made the argument well of the way that they took risks with it. Yeah. And that's the only way you can do it with the George Carlin obituary.

Michael: I do like it when there's a meta quality Yes.

To these first line of obits. Right. Where there's like something they're doing in the sentence that is in the spirit of the life story. I'm gonna go nine. Nine. Yeah, I'm gonna go higher. I was gonna go eight. I really don't like the air to Lenny Bruce. However, one thing this first line also [00:09:00] does do for me is incite curiosity and invite like a sort of, don't you want to go deeper and learn a little bit more?

And if you don't know who Lenny Bruce is. Lenny Bruce is also worth knowing about. I sometimes feel like if they bring another figure into the first line of an obituary like they did with Nora Ephron and Dorothy Parker, it's like, well now I gotta go look that. Person up to, I want them to do that. In this case, Lenny Bruce is so fascinating that I'm a little more graceful with it, and the more you and I talked it out, the more you know I really like as stringent [00:09:30] indignant.

Counterculture is great, and yeah, I'm very okay with the assaulting the barricades of censorship on behalf of a generation.

Amit: Yeah, if the word counterculture was left out, I would have big problems with

Michael: it. Yeah, I agree with that. All right. Let's move on. Category two, five things I love about you here, Ahed and I develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived.

I'm gonna start with the simple one. Reinvention. Yep. If you watch the Judd AAU documentary, if you read the George Carland biographies, [00:10:00] one thing that comes out is this is a man, an artist who reinvented himself. Over and over and over again, and I just love that. I feel like that is what I want my life to be.

That's what I want everybody to have the opportunity to do with their lives, is to say who I am today. This is not who I want to be. I'm gonna hit a reset. I'm gonna start over and I'm gonna try again.

Archival: I'm an entertainer, first and foremost, but there's art involved here and an artist has [00:10:30] an obligation to be.

En route to be going somewhere. There's a journey involved here and you don't know where it is, and that's the fun. So you're always gonna be seeking and looking and going and trying to challenge yourself. So without sitting around thinking of that a lot, right. It drives you and it, and it keeps you trying to be fresh, trying to be new, trying to call on yourself, calling yourself a little more, you know,

Michael: to go through the story.

George Carlin started off at a very young age in the early sixties, actually part of a comedy team, and he was very straight laced and was known for the hippie to be [00:11:00] weatherman. Then he takes acid, I guess. Yeah, and just sort of joins the counterculture and becomes famous for the seven dirty words. Free speech bit that we talked about is snorting a tremendous amount of cocaine in the 1970s and he talks very openly about that.

But his career kind of stalls out late seventies, early eighties, and he's going through a number of health problems and he's becoming less relevant. He's not the IT guy anymore. And then suddenly this thing called HBO comes along and [00:11:30] he gets the opportunity to do one hour specials. And so for the next really 20 years, more or less, he is doing an HBO special every two or three years and becomes a lot more, not just political, but a lot more philosophical and really creates a template for a new kind of comic.

That's the whole life story. But each of those, and the thing to draw attention to is reinvention along the ways he is ending a chapter of the previous life and opening up a chapter of the next life. And I love that. I love to see [00:12:00] that in an artist. I love to see an artist who continues to challenge themselves.

And to try and strive for something bigger, greater, deeper. And who uses experience and wisdom to make the next thing better? Yep. It's the upward staircase that you and I have talked about, and it's just so on display here. That's my thing, number one.

Amit: Okay. For number two, I'm just gonna zoom in on a certain piece of that reinvention, which is really the sixties.

Mm. And I think how much George Carlin tells the story of the sixties in [00:12:30] his transformation from being a suit and tie comic to a voice of a counterculture. You said he took acid and I. Changed his mind, but I think there was a few things, and a lot of it was he started to not relate to his 40 something audiences.

Yeah. And saw him relating more to maybe their children or their nephews. But Stephen Colbert summed it up very well, is that he went from the Beatles of Hard Day's Night into Producing the White album in Sergeant Pepper's Lonely Heart. Yes, right. He went from buttoned up and moppy hair to long hair [00:13:00] and about freedom and spirituality.

Michael: George Carlin is the Beatles of comedy.

Amit: He is totally the Beatles of comedy and we don't think about that. Like we easily look at this transition from fifties to sixties culture as totally existing in music, existing in literature. He is possibly the sole representation. Of it existing in comedy. I think the way that he mirrors what America went through at the time and possibly globally, is something to absolutely love because he is essentially writing the history of the turn of comedy.

Michael: [00:13:30] Yeah. It's so interesting to see that kind of pattern play out in different art forms in music, in movies, in comedy. You could maybe make a case for Richard Pryor. Which maybe we'll do in a future episode. Yeah. Calling George Carlin, the Beatles of Comedy actually really captures a lot of it because of the reinvention.

He also talks a lot in his biography about how he really identifies with rock and roll and rock and roll musicians. Yeah. And one thing that's sort of interesting about him is that. While he has an incredible influence on other [00:14:00] comics, he's not exactly a comics comic in the same way like Rodney Dangerfield is.

Yeah. He's not as obviously in community with comics and the way he talks about it, he's more in community with rock stars and you can kind of see that in, in your thing. Number two, totally figure go number three.

Amit: Yep.

Michael: Surrender outcomes. This is something that. Has come up a lot on our show, really since the very first Robin Leach episode, the idea that maybe life is a big fucking joke.

Carlin, I think [00:14:30] more than anybody else really advocates for that as a, he never puts it in these terms, but I would as a kind of spiritual solution, right? That like he gets to a point in his comedy where he is like, here's how I see things. I see really corrupt powers that control the world, that are business interests, that are media interests, that are political interests.

And I, George Carlin. I'm gonna choose to be entertained [00:15:00] by this show,

Amit: okay?

Michael: Right. That I am going to look at the reality of the world and the power structures of the world, and the hubris and selfishness of humanity. And I'm gonna do my damnedest to laugh. And that begins by surrendering outcomes. That begins by not having a strongly held position about.

How things are supposed to go and why they're supposed to go a certain way. I'm gonna give up. It's all gonna work out.

Archival: [00:15:30] We've all seen a lot of communities who seem to have a political bent in their work and always implicit in the work is, is some positive outcome that this is all gonna work. If only we do this.

If only we pass that bill, if only we elect him. It's not true. It's circling the drain time. For humans. I believe this, not just as a comedian, he thinks that, he likes to say that. I believe it. And when you say to yourself, I don't care what happens, it just gives you a broader perspective for the art, for the words to, to emerge to not care.

It's not [00:16:00] all gonna work out according to George Carlin.

Michael: Yeah. And that needs to be, if nothing else. Funny, and I'm gonna try and bring out the humor in that I have a complicated relationship to this life philosophy, but I am really moving towards it more and more, and I think that there may be something liberating about that attitude.

Amit: I love that. I love your phrasing of that too. I'm surrendering outcomes. How does that like idea of a life philosophy sit with you? I think to fathom is a near [00:16:30] impossibility. It's a very easy thing to embrace in a vacuum, right? But if you truly are surrendering outcomes, you're still doing it in a world of 7 billion people that are not necessarily also surrendering outcomes.

And so I think as an ideal, it. Fabulous. I think it is hard as F to actually live out that idea. Yeah. Right. And I think the only way to actually do it is to go back to your number one, to constantly reinvent yourself If you don't have a preconceived notion of what the next year, the next five years, and the next 10 years look like, if you're [00:17:00] actually surrendering to the outcome of that yet, be completely open to reinvention.

I love the idea. I think I'm gonna do it,

Michael: but that's, no, you said it. Well. That's exactly, that's how I feel about it. It's like I really like it. I think I'm gonna do it, but I have fear around that because maybe because of the implications and maybe because of what that means and how that changes your relationship to fear overall.

Surrendering outcomes can be liberating and liberation to me implies. Letting go of certain fears, which is [00:17:30] how other people might judge you or perceive you or think what you're all about. And I think that's something a comedian has to do no matter what kind of jokes you're telling. Alright, what do you got for number

Amit: four?

I think I have to just mention this because it's of historical significance is he was the first person to ever host Saturday Night Live. This I did not know, nor did I, and it seems so huge. So one, we're at exactly 50 years of Saturday Night Live. So I think that speaks to one thing. The guy is part of the kickstarting of an institution.

Yes. I think more what I like about it [00:18:00] is Saturday Night Live has still remained relevant over 50 years. And the fact that he was the very first person to host it, I think is. So symbolic of the type of humor and joke telling and vision that George Carlin has. And so I love him as a symbol of this institution that with the exception of maybe a few years in the eighties, doesn't really become irrelevant.

Michael: I think it's really fascinating that as SNL is trying to lay a foundation of what it's going to be and. Does not [00:18:30] realize that it'll be in existence 50 years later. Yeah. That they attach themselves to George Carlin by saying, we want to invite you on to be first. Yeah. And he doesn't do any skits. He just does a standup bit and I think there's almost an immediate divergence.

I think that while they're all wearing bell bottoms and have long hair and don't. Ton of drugs. I think that Lauren Michaels and George Carlin don't see eye to eye and he doesn't totally connect with the cast. That said, the fact that he was there first and sort of [00:19:00] in a way, 'cause he's hot in 1975. Yes, he is a big deal comic and certainly one of his peaks.

What's I think hard for people to understand about the significance of him being the first guest is that he is essentially giving SNLA stamp of approval. Not the other way around. It is we are inviting George Carlin on to tell you the world how cool we SNL are. I didn't think about it that way. That's got me thinking.

I also would say the same thing about HBO, that HBO, when [00:19:30] George Carlin does his first special. Isn't even in LA yet. Cable television and the HBO package isn't available in whatever it was, say, 79 or 80 or 81. Yeah. George Carlin is critical for what HBO becomes as a comedy destination. Totally as an institution of entertainment.

Right. If you look at SNL, you look at HBO and I. I think you can also talk about George Carlin's comedy records as laying a foundation for [00:20:00] just comedy overall, like what standup can be and what he does. Sure. I wrote Foundation Layer bricklayer, like he is somebody who's actually laying the foundation for institutions across entertainment.

Yeah. In the second half of the 20th century. That's kind of four BI guess we'll go with. Yeah. Do you have something for number five? Do you wanna take the last one? 'cause it kind of expanded on your four A

Amit: I certainly can do it. Timeless observations. Oh, love it. I guess we kind of hinted at it at SNL is that one thing I liked about it was it's an institution that [00:20:30] lasts.

That has never become irrelevant. So every time there's a school shooting, everyone always posts or talks about the Onion headline says, how can we prevent this saying only nation in which this happens regularly. Right? Yes. Right. So George Carlin does the bits that he was doing in the sixties, seventies and eighties are still highly relevant today?

Michael: Yeah. I mean, this is something that gets pointed out a lot is how both people on the left and right. Claim him and will repost old clips [00:21:00] saying, see how George Carlin got it right?

Amit: Yeah. Which gives him a sort of prophecy quality 'cause everybody else sort of tells jokes that are very relevant and related to current events.

But he had this ability to really see things globally that are issues that really pervade. The ones that are often mentioned are his views on abortion. He talks about global warming and the planet

Archival: and the greatest arrogance of all save the planet. What are these fucking people kidding me? Save the planet.

We don't even know how to take care of ourselves [00:21:30] yet. We haven't learned how to care for one another. We're gonna save the fucking planet. I'm getting tired of that.

Amit: And then there's all the talk about war. Have you ever noticed, have we only bombed countries of brown people? All these things have not faded one bit since he first told those jokes in the seventies and eighties.

Michael: Yeah, I mean, even the understanding of political power, it's a big tent and you ain't in it, and I think that whatever your political orientation is, everybody agrees with that, that the world is run by a small group of people and that really, the fights are about how [00:22:00] we understand those groups or what the dimensions of those groups are.

I'm gonna addendum this one as well. I love how brilliant all of that is, and he never even went to high school. I love people who are really smart, who don't have a formal education and he becomes self-educated in a big way. There's just something my older brother's best friend. Said to me when I was like 11 or 12, we were talking one night, and he is like, I think the best measure of intelligence is somebody's sense of humor.

Mm-hmm. And I've [00:22:30] always loved that. I think that there's a lot of truth to that because humor can be so incisive, it can cut through. When somebody makes a point with humor, I'm just sort of really impressed by it. And the longer that point is relevant, the fact that it is sort of evergreen as you were just speaking to.

Makes it all the more brilliant to me, so I'm glad you pointed it out. It's absolutely one of my favorite things about George Carlin as well.

Amit: This also points to the gripe that you had about the air to Lenny Bruce.

Michael: Mm.

Amit: Because Lenny Bruce jokes are not being retold and referenced or [00:23:00] paraphrased, or even misattributed as George Carlin's R is still to this day.

Michael: Okay. Let's recap. So number one, I said reinvention. Number two, you said embodied the sixties. Cultural

Amit: shift like the

Michael: Beatles. Yeah, the Beatles of comedy number three. I said surrender outcomes. Number four, you said

Amit: first to host, SNL, you added HBO, which we just kind of grouped into. He was a bricklayer.

Michael: Yeah. Brick layer. And number five, you said timeless [00:23:30] observations. Timeless observations. Great list. All right, let's take a break. Category three, one love. In this category, Amin and I each choose one word or phrase that characterizes this person's loving relationships. First, we will review the family life data.

So two marriages. The first one to Brenda Brook. They were married in 1961. She died in 1997. They were married about 36 years. George was 23 when they got married and just short of [00:24:00] 60 when she died, they had one daughter, Kelly, born in 1963. Second wife Sally Wade. George married her in 1998. They were wedding in private.

George died in 2008. They were together about 10 years. George was 61 when they got married and he died at 71. This data doesn't tell much of a story, and I think. Before we offer our words, lemme just start with this. I was surprised by what I learned about his family life. One that Brenda, his [00:24:30] wife, they had some major, major ups and downs, but there was a real love that was very evident and a real partnership, and she was incredibly supportive of him kind of all throughout with every.

Reinvention. I mean, they're, they're crazy rocky points, especially in the seventies when his cocaine addiction is really taken off and her alcoholism

Archival: and some things coincide that aren't related to one another. Uh, life [00:25:00] and art and, and entertainment and all of those things come and go in waves. And I had a period, uh, after being the hot guy, the hot new guy on the block.

You can't be the hot new guy on the block forever when the heat dies down and you're not a novelty anymore. And, uh, I had the heart attack and a huge debt to the IRS and my wife was also recovering from substance problems, alcoholism specifically, and. It was a period of gathering strength and, and recovering in a manner of [00:25:30] speaking.

Michael: And she ends up going to rehab and becoming a big sort of 12 stepper and they kind of reevaluate life. There's one story, the documentary that was also came up in his autobiography. George, Brenda, and Kelly are all on vacation in Hawaii. And Kelly, the 10-year-old or 11-year-old says. You need to sign this contract saying you will not drink or do drugs tonight because you two are about to rip each other's throats out.

Yeah. So that was one story about how out of [00:26:00] control the marriage was and might've even been violent at times. Yep. During that peak of the addiction and alcoholism and so forth, one thing that struck me, I really, really struggled to come up with a word that characterized their loving relationships. And what I landed on was that it was humbling.

I'm intrigued by this. I don't see where you're going yet, and I like that. Well, I think the word, when it popped into my head, it had a kind of comforting quality. I do [00:26:30] see in the documentary and in the books and in the story a surprising amount of love and support. I see it. Really complicated. I see that they're causing each other pain in the marriage, and George worries about the damage that he might have done to his daughter who had her own struggles.

But when you see her interviewed, she is unbelievably eloquent about who her parents were and how she understands her father's legacy. I was also really. Heart warmed [00:27:00] by his second wife, Sally. She's like, okay, you may see a resentful old guy on stage. That's not who I experienced in the relationship.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: And the way all of these people in his life even, and we didn't talk much about his mother, who has a complicated relationship, or his brother for that matter, the way they're all kind, lifting him up in messy ways felt to me, sort of humbling. Like it was grounded. So. I do think his ego is sort of in check by his family.

Like he comes back to being a human in [00:27:30] his family life and that there's gratitude, but it does take some humbling breaking down to get there. So that's what I went with. Humbling. Okay. I

Amit: think it fits. My word is it's a noun. Soda water. Okay. Okay. You would appreciate that being the fan of soda water that you are.

So this talks a lot about Brenda in that 36 year marriage that you talked about. So one, if you just take it in summation, it's water. It's this [00:28:00] beautiful, clean, clear. Partnership. There's a lot of purity to it. I mean, they went from meeting to marriage in like three weeks and they experienced the absolute heights of fame, which led a lot to her alcoholism.

That's a little nod to the soda water, but I think the fact that you have this guy who became so institutional. But you had a very steady marriage. Those are the bubbles in the soda water.

Michael: Yeah. It's not coincidental. Right. There is something buoyant about the soda part of it. Correct.

Amit: But the bubbles are also [00:28:30] disrupting the purity of the still water.

Yeah,

Michael: yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, I like this

Amit: metaphor. Yeah. Yeah. When she's going through the alcoholism, he's going through the drug addiction, which was. Pretty much simultaneous. I think he's on the road going on these cocaine binges, but not being disloyal as best as we can tell.

Michael: It doesn't sound like it. You didn't hear about any of that.

And even the second wife, he says six months after Brenda's death, he is very drawn to Sally, but he is like, I need to give this time. And then she thinks he ghost him and he calls her eight months later and then they [00:29:00] marry in private. He is sort of a gentleman about it all as best we can see.

Amit: Yeah, so they have these things, and I'm just going back to Brenda, but I think this is also true of Sally, is these things that bubble up, specifically the contract that Kelly made them sign, but they're small disruptions in what seems to be a pretty solid, pure loving marriage

Michael: in as much as such a thing exist.

Amit: Yeah. I don't think I've seen many like this, that parallel this level of fame and notoriety.

Michael: Wow. I [00:29:30] really like this metaphor. Soda water. I, I can't believe how well it works, but this category is always a little bit blunt in that one word to summarize the loving relationships, right? Yeah. I mean, we're never gonna get at that.

And I do think that you and I, one thing we have in common, in our words here is that, boy, it's hard to simplify a complicated story, but I think in a way, both of our ideas here speak to it and are pretty good impressions, which is essentially what this category is. Let's move [00:30:00] on. Category four, net worth.

In this category, Ahmed and I are going to write down our numbers, our guesses about this person's net worth and share 'em with each other, or they're gonna talk a little bit about our reasoning. We will look up the actual net worth number in real time. And finally, we will place this person on the famous and gravy net worth leaderboard.

So Ahmed Kippur wrote down 27 million. And

Amit: Michael Osborne wrote down 3 million. Okay. The prediction markets were

Michael: [00:30:30] way off. Yeah. This is like the opposite of James Lipton where I said something like 30 million and you said six and got six. Right on the money. I am now terrified that you're gonna get 27, right on the money.

27 million. Say more. How did you get at such a large number?

Amit: So it started off when, when he was performing Vegas in the. Sixties and seventies. He was making what they said was 12 grand a week, which essentially these days comes out to about 65 KA year. And that's if he was performing every week, that's about a $3 million annualized [00:31:00] salary.

Yeah. That he was earning way back in the seventies. And he pretty much continued, although I think he wasn't necessarily packing the same size venues throughout the next almost 40 years. He was consistently performing. And if he can essentially make $3 million a year. Performing, I think over a course of, let's say a 40 year standup career, more or less, there is a lot of money being earned there, and that's without the specials.

So I think his cumulative earnings, and this pure speculation was [00:31:30] probably somewhere in the fifties. Fifties or sixties, millions. He liked boats. I think he spent a lot, but he also did albums. Albums that were a big, big money maker in back in the, in the seventies. Yeah. I don't know what an HBO special was paying.

I don't think it's paying, like Netflix is paying Dave Chappelle these days, but I think it's paying pretty well. And so I actually started out closer to your number. My initial thoughts before I started to dig in a little bit were, this is gonna be maybe a five, $6 million thing, especially as he talked about in the seventies, [00:32:00] needing money and so forth.

But yeah, I kind of ended up discounting that as a bit

Michael: of a charade. I mean, this is well documented in his biography. He was negligent in paying his tax bill in the late seventies, and he woke up to being in incredible debt and owing the IRS quite a bit of money and had to manage his way out of it. Part of the reason he doubles down on his effort to reinvent himself in the early eighties, which happens to coincide with the rise of HBO, is because he's desperate for money.

[00:32:30] So I think all of the funds you were talking about are erased in my head in the early eighties. And I guess the other thing that led me to go with such a low number to 3 million is that I see him as more of an artist than anything else he says. In multiple interviews. I'm glad they pay me, but if they didn't, I'd be doing this anyway.

And if we were in an environment where I was a caveman, bartering for meat, I'd probably do this to barter with the other cavemen and tell jokes in exchange for meat that it's almost antithetical to [00:33:00] his message and that his message and his integrity or such an important part of the experience of him, that anything north of 10 million.

Felt a little bit like it might threaten that. However, the guy's gotta make a living and he is very valuable and he is, I think in many people's minds, one of the most, if not the most important standup comic ever. So I'll be really curious to see what we get. All right. Let's look it up. Okay. George Carlin's actual net worth.

10 million. 10 million.

Amit: Okay. You're still [00:33:30] closer?

Michael: I'm a little closer. And you know how I feel About 10 million. I thought that was old Michael

Amit: Osborne. I thought the. It's,

Michael: it's swinging back. I love this number for George Carlin. I assume there's no endorsements and there's not a whole lot in the film and TV world for him, A few parts here and there, but he never really makes it as an actor.

So the income is almost all standup, but it's standup in different forms. Right. It's album specials and touring. Correct. And those albums probably have a long tail of sales as [00:34:00] well, so. 10 million for George Carlin. I'll just say before we move on, I really am glad that that's the number we got There feels something serendipitous about that.

Amit: The smile on your face tells that story.

Michael: Yeah. So Amed, where does this put George Carlin on the Famous and Gravy leaderboard?

Amit: Okay, so 10 million puts him in a multi-way tie. For 51st place. Okay, so tons of contemporaries. I'll tell you first who's above and who's below, because it's very entertaining.

Right above you'd have Judge Wapner and Robin [00:34:30] Leach, right? Right below we have mean Gene Oakland, Neil Armstrong, and Ruth Bad Ginsburg. Wow contemporaries in the 10 million category, which by the way, puts you at exactly in the top. Two thirds of Famous and Gravy episodes include Roger Ebert, Margaret.

Thatcher, Maya Angel, Louis Anderson, Leonard Cohen, Luke Perry, bill Russell. There is quite an array of people of all ages and professions that landed at 10 million.

Michael: I love that. I love that number. And we probably ought to come [00:35:00] with some infographic of the 10 million Club. Shall we move on? Yep. Category five, little Lebowski, urban Achievers.

Archival: They're the little Lebowski. Urban achievers. Yeah. The achievers. Yes. And proud. We are of all of them.

Michael: In this category, Amin and I will choose a trophy and award, a cameo, an impersonation, or any other form of a hat tip that shows a different side of this person. This is near and dear to my heart because it was my introduction to George Carlin.

I'm going Bill and Ted's excellent adventure.

Amit: Oh, you are? I am. Okay. I felt [00:35:30] kind of pressured to go there 'cause I felt like it couldn't go unmentioned.

Archival: Bill s Preston, Esquire and Ted Theodore Logan. Gentlemen, I'm here to help you with your history report. What Bill, what strange things are afoot at the Circle K.

Michael: It cannot go unmentioned. It's way too important, but I wanna speak to the different side of this person as well. So Bill and [00:36:00] Ted's excellent Adventure was an important movie for me. In fifth and sixth grade, me and my three best friends would say, dude, and we imitated those guys. We were sort of infatuated with the movie in a way, and George Carlin was kind of an afterthought in thinking back on him.

Now, I kind of love the metaphor here that it's not really clear who Rufuss is other than he's a time traveler guide that is going to lead these two teenage knuckleheads through history. I don't know how much you remember the [00:36:30] movie, but Bill and Ted. Their future band ends up uniting humanity around rock music.

Yeah. And there's this future utopia that is made possible by how together we all feel, by Wild stallion. Right. Wild stallions, their musical genius. It's an absurd premise, but it stands in pretty sharp contrast to the cynicism you hear in George Carlin's comedy. Yeah. And his message. And the fact that. He is sort of wise and they're [00:37:00] not, and that he's taking them through history.

I just kind of like what that means and what that says about who George Carlin was. 'cause there is a way in which he was the perfect guy for that part in this frankly silly movie.

Amit: Yeah. And it's so different from him. Rather than being somebody who challenges authority, he was in a sense, a mentor. Yes, exactly.

Which was very different from the George Carlin that we saw everywhere else.

Michael: Yeah, he's not insulting barricades in this one. He's explaining the value of barricades in a way.

Amit: He's putting them up a little bit.

Michael: A little bit. So that's [00:37:30] my a little Baky Urban Achiever Award.

Amit: Okay, great. So, you know, I said in the top five things we love was the timeless observations.

Yeah. So one thing that's happened and still happens and has probably happened a lot in the last couple of weeks is people point to old George Carlin quotes and bit. And say, this explains what's happening right now. So there's a lot of misattribution. So you look on Twitter to the extent anyone's still on it, or Threads or Instagram.

There are fake George Carlin posts out there [00:38:00] because he was such a prophet and because some of the things he said are so relevant and so accurate. I'm going to a weird Al Yankovic lyric. From a 2011 song called Stop Forwarding That Crap to me. So you gotta go back to 2011 when we're a little more email centric and everyone is forwarding well, lots of crap to each other.

Yeah. And in this song there is a lyric which says, your quotes from George Carlin aren't really George Carlin. Oh wow. And this is surrounded by a bunch of other lyrics. That talk [00:38:30] about the uselessness or the misinformation that's floating around the internet.

And so this lyric that's coming out three years after the death of George Carlin and very well could have come out right now is pointing to that. How much people keep attributing things to George Carlin. Because the things he said were so timeless.

Michael: I feel like people do this with Nostradamus too.

Amit: Totally. Yeah. I [00:39:00] don't know if you ever, like back to nine 11, they're like, oh, Nostradamus said this was gonna happen. Yeah, totally. And so now it seems like any current event, especially as it relates to those things like abortion, global war and climate change. Do we always go back? I'm like, yeah, George Carlin called this and again, whether you're on the left or the right, they tend to do that and so I love that Weird.

Al chose to single this out in terms of internet spam and group George Carlin into that.

Michael: Let's take this moment briefly to talk about the AI George Carlin of 2024. Do you remember this [00:39:30] story that Yeah, I came across it a lot. There was an AI that was. Built on George Carlin that I think his daughter ended up bringing a lawsuit saying he never said these things.

And what's interesting about it is that this AI is meant to like sort of respond to things in the voice of George Carlin. Yes. What that spoke to, to me was this hunger for a voice like that for comedy, to offer comedy analysis of the absurdity of our media life and our news and information ecosystem [00:40:00] is like, God, do we need this guy right now?

You know what? Let's bring him back in the form of an ai. I'm glad they shut it down though. I thought that was really interesting.

Amit: Yeah, and it's sort of the same argument about the misattribution of quotes. A hundred percent. That weird Al pointed out to all of us. Yeah. Okay, so Bill and Ted and Weird Al.

Bill

Michael: and Ted and Weird Al We are true Gen Xers.

Amit: Actually, no. If this were, uh, 1970 sitcom, it'd be called Bill and Ted and Rufuss and Weird Al. We need to make that T-shirt. That'd be a good T-shirt.

Michael: All right, let's take a break. Category six [00:40:30] words to live by. In this category, we choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them.

This one comes up a lot. I saw him saying this to Roseanne Barr of all people, about like, are you really a cynical, as we think? And he said it sometimes said, if you scratch a cynic, you'll find a disappointed idealist. Yes. This one's really been speaking to me a lot lately. Mm-Hmm. The way. The world is going and the way I feel like I'm [00:41:00] absorbing news and current events.

I'm at a point in life where I'm taking a turn towards a more cynical posture, and that is not how I've always thought of myself. I've always thought of myself ultimately as fairly optimistic and fairly idealistic, and I'm always gonna fight for hope. I do think you're existing in a world of naivete and denial if you don't develop a somewhat cynical [00:41:30] exterior.

Archival: Yeah, I love people as I meet them one by one. People are just wonderful as individuals. You see the whole universe in their eyes if you look carefully. But as soon as they begin to group, as soon as they begin to clot, when there are five of them or 10, or even groups as small as two, they begin to change.

They sacrifice the beauty of the individual for the sake of the group. There's a little bit of a sick part in this too. Yeah. I root for the big comet. I root for the big asteroid to come and make things right. That's the way I put it. Stir things up. Yes.

Michael: I think this kind of gets back at what [00:42:00] we were talking about earlier, about the sort of big fucking joke life philosophy and how far to go with that.

I want to adopt a point of view that allows me to laugh more because I find humor to be soothing. I also think that it is really possible to misinterpret Carlin as, especially in the later years, going very, very dark. I think some of that resentment and frustration is [00:42:30] genuine. I don't doubt that for a second, but I also think that he starts with.

Emotional truth gets to humor and lands at cognitive intellectual resonant points. And all of that is for me, captured in this quote. If you scratch a cynic, you'll find a disappointed idealist. Yeah, I think it's a good reminder. When I come across very, very cynical people, I need to remind myself that underneath.

That crusty exterior is probably an idealist.

Amit: Yeah. I love it. And I almost [00:43:00] use that same quote as a word to live by. It's a good one, man. That's a really good one. It is. Oh, there's so many. This goes back to what we were just talking about. Yeah. I mean, he's a real lyricist. Yeah. And I dug around and I was looking for more, 'cause I knew there were so many, but I did land on another one from him.

My words to live by are. Think of how stupid the average person is and realize half of them are stupider than that. So this one gets quoted a lot. It's funny.

Michael: I hadn't heard that one.

Amit: It gets referenced a lot because people are often referred to saying that they are in [00:43:30] fact of the stupider half. Yeah, it's referenced a lot that way.

What I like about it is something completely different. It is our relationship to averages. I like how it points that out, that anytime we talk about an average of anything, we talk about an average voter, an average income, an average whatever, that we don't really fully understand that half of the people are below that.

Line.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: And half of the people are above that line, and so we think of average as being a most common, but it's not. It's just a midway point.

Michael: It's a demarcation [00:44:00] between top and bottom,

Amit: and I think it's important actually for empathy building. Hmm. When you think about average income or average healthcare access and so forth, then really what you're saying is that half the people have less than that, and if you sympathize with an average of being like, oh man, that's really low.

Then you gotta sympathize even more with, oh my God, like actually half of it is less than that. I think that's why it's a word to live by for me, and that's why it resonates is 'cause George Carlin, this master wordsmith takes [00:44:30] apart a word that we use and take for granted. In this case average and points out the kind of hypocrisy on how we use it.

Michael: I love that. I do love all the stuff he does on euphemisms.

Archival: I don't like words that hide the truth. I don't like words that conceal reality. I don't like euphemisms or euphemistic language. And American English is loaded with euphemisms 'cause Americans have a lot of trouble dealing with reality.

Americans have trouble facing the truth, so they invent a kind of a soft language to [00:45:00] protect themselves from it, and it gets worse with every generation for some reason. It just keeps getting worse. I'll give you an example of that. Poor people used to live in slums. Now the economically disadvantaged occupy substandard housing in the inner cities.

And they're broke. They're broke. They don't have a negative cash flow position. They're fucking broke.

Michael: George Carlin was never my guy. I didn't grow up loving his comedy. As soon as I began the [00:45:30] research for this episode, I immediately loved the interviews. I was very good with hearing him talk and not making jokes, not being on stage and not being funny.

I. I like a lot of his bits now, and I can point to sections that I like more than others, but overall, what really endeared me to him was not his humor, but his intellect. And those are related, but they're separate things. Yeah. And I think it's well captured in your words to live by. Yeah. Okay, let's move on.

[00:46:00] Category seven, man In the mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment. I'll kick us off here. I mean, to me, comedians are some of the most confident people in the world. Yes, it's such a risk taking thing to get up on stage and it's so vulnerable.

Is the audience gonna like me? Yes or no? And I like how honest he is about. Even like in the sixties and seventies, like, yeah, look, I get up on stage and I'm [00:46:30] like, Hey me, love me. Like me. I want attention. And I respond to that. I mean, he's very transparent and clearer about the dopamine hit that comes with making a crowd of people laugh.

And I don't doubt for a second that that is one of the most exhilarating dopamine hits you can get.

Amit: Yes.

Michael: I set aside the looks and I basically said, sure, some self-doubt perhaps, but this is a very confident. Guy who he really understands confidence on a deep level. And if this is a question about self-confidence versus [00:47:00] self-judgment, I come down pretty heavily on the side of self-confidence.

So I said yes. He liked his reflection.

Amit: That's what I wrote down. I wrote down. I don't see why not. Yeah. The confidence that you talk about, I think speaks multitudes. I think what's really interesting is that he was not an angry off stage guy.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: He was very angry on stage and to me actually the ability to do that, to walk off stage and not be angry.

They say that he did his best angry work when he was happiest, speaks to that same self-confidence or inner peace. One thing I really, really like about [00:47:30] him, and I almost included this in the five things we love about Him. Is that once he stopped changing and toying with his image, once he was just wearing a black sweater and slacks is when he started doing his best work, what I wanted to say and five things is counterculture in a sweater.

Yeah. Right. And so he realized that the projected image was less important than the beauty of his mind. That his appear doesn't have anything to do with the message that he is delivering or the quality of his jokes or the level of his fame and profession.

Michael: I would even go [00:48:00] a step further and say, I think it goes back to my thing number four, surrendering outcomes.

There's obviously a surrendering outcome sort of experience when you step on stage, and I hope I'm funny. We'll see how it goes, but I even see it. As enviable, he comes across to me as liberated. I don't know if that's like spiritual liberation or emotional liberation or if those are two different things, but it is actually a benchmark that I'd like to strive for, and I've been thinking a lot about that as we've been getting ready for this episode.[00:48:30]

Okay. Category eight, coffee, cocktail, or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. I went in coffee. Okay.

Amit: Yeah. I mean, I think you just watch his specials and that gives you all the cocktail and the cannabis interactions that you need. Yeah. Why? I like coffee.

You talked a lot about. This deep intelligence that he has, which is remarkable because it comes from a place without formal education.

Michael: Right. But a tremendous amount of self-education. I mean, he references history in great works, like he is a smart son of a bitch.

Amit: [00:49:00] Yeah. He's got sort of that norm McDonald quality about him.

What I talked about in Man in the Mirror, this equanimity that he seems to have of the anger and the incision on stage, but walks it off.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: And I think sitting down with him for a cup of coffee is when you would feed off that. And I think it's not only just. Being around it. I think he actually does have these non joke forms of telling you how he reaches it and how he sees life and how he divides his mind between what he's doing out [00:49:30] there versus how he's living.

Actually,

Michael: that's interesting. So we're in the same place I actually went. Cocktail normally with somebody this smart, I've wanted coffee because I want to learn from that person and just have a very intelligent conversation without impairment. Right. And maybe I just feel like picking up a drink lately, but I have questions here.

I wanna speak to the same thing you were just speaking to, which is. This division of expressions, as you said, the people who are close to [00:50:00] him say they don't experience a lot of anger in their day-to-day interactions. I think some of that was there when he was snorting a lot of Coke, but it really sounded like the older he got there was more of a partitioning of expression and that he saw resentment as a way to arrive at truth and humor and to.

Capture the emotional experience of an audience, but then lead them to someplace insightful where they could laugh and they may learn something. I'd sort of like to explore [00:50:30] that more with him and for all the interviews he gave, I think at, at times he touches on this, but I think that there's a.

Different kind of wisdom to be gleaned that I feel like I need a little bit of booze to just loosen up that cynical exterior and get a little vulnerable to get at that deeper truth. And I think he wants to go there and I don't even know what kind of booze, maybe a watered down vodka soda water.

Perhaps

Amit: I was thinking of Manhattan.

Michael: Yeah, I thought about a Manhattan too. Something that you gotta slip slowly. Yeah, because I [00:51:00] actually don't really want to get drunk with George Carlin, but I would like to learn from him and I'd like to try and go a level deeper in a way that maybe he didn't in other places, even though I think he's fully capable of

Amit: it.

Yeah. Because it's almost like we feel like we've already gotten drunk with George Carlin. Yes. Or we've already gotten high with George Carlin, and now Totally. Yeah. We need something different for the actual off stage. George Carlin.

Michael: Yeah. For a different experience of him. That's exactly right. Alright.

Category nine, final category. The Vander [00:51:30] beak. Named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said In varsity Blues, I don't want your life. In that varsity blue scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kind of life based on a single characteristic. So here Ahmed and I will form a rebuttal to anyone skeptical of how George Carlin lived.

Alright. You and I have gotten in this habit of starting with the counter arguments. Here's where James is coming from when he says, I don't want your life. Yeah. What are the counter arguments here?

Amit: Although he is [00:52:00] somebody who reinvented himself over and over again. He is still pretty singular in his career.

He's pretty alone. Yeah. Which is the thing James Vander beak disliked the most.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: Is that somebody is so singularly devoted to something.

Michael: Yeah. And you even see the impulse from George Carlin to want to get into some other things that never quite materialized.

Amit: Yeah. He had a sitcom that lasted a year, and

Michael: yeah, he talked about a Broadway show that never came into fruition.

George Carlin had wanted, it sounded like it [00:52:30] various. Times to be in movies. He's in dogma in an interesting role.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: And Jersey Girl,

Amit: very deep relationship with Kevin Smith. Right.

Michael: Ruthless People is not a terrible movie or I remember enjoying it when I watched it 30 years ago, but it never kind of took off.

So like he is in the pantheon of great comics. Mm-Hmm. But it's kind of all he was. I'll add to that that I do think it's sort of surprising to me that he didn't seem to be tight with other [00:53:00] comics. I think he had one-on-one relationships with him. There is a great story. I don't know if you remember this.

George Carlin encouraged. Gary Sling to try comedy. Gary Sling was in college in Arizona. Went to see George Carlin in Phoenix and said, I'm kind of thinking about this. Here's some stuff, and George Carlin read it and said, I think you've got some promise. Yeah, give this a shot. He was encouraging to Chris Rock.

He was encouraging to John Stewart, Jerry Seinfeld, and he certainly inspired all these guys. He also talks a lot about, this [00:53:30] is something I really. Can relate to at times. He's like, I love individuals. And you look at an individual in the eye and you can see the whole universe in them, but I don't care for groups.

Yeah. And part of his cynical exterior and his posture of it's all a big joke and I'm just gonna be entertained by it, is because of the power that emerges from Clusterings, what he calls clumps of people. Yes. There's something I get about that and even kind of like about that idea, but is also.

Ultimately kind of [00:54:00] isolating. It means you can be in friendship, but friendships and group cohesion are uncomfortable. And that seems to be a truth about his story, which I put in the counter argument of, of why James might not want this life.

Amit: Yeah. I'm glad you brought it up 'cause it didn't seem like he had that kind of pal relationship with other comics.

Michael: He's not Rodney Dangerfield that way where he is lifting everybody up and he is a friend among friends and peer among peers.

Amit: Yeah. And that's what the obituary said is that he paved the way for other comics.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: Right. But he wasn't necessarily coming up with them [00:54:30] as much. Yeah.

Michael: If we were to mount the argument for why you should want this life.

I don't know. I mean, there's some really obvious stuff if you ask me. Mm-Hmm. I'll start with the legacy and institution building for S-N-L-H-B-O, a generation of comics, a free speech warrior. What he did for the world of comedy and entertainment is tremendous. I mean, he, he is on the short list of most important [00:55:00] entertainers of the last 130 years.

Amit: Yes.

Michael: And he did it, it seemed to me, with a. Unbelievable amount of joy and excitement. Like when he hits his stride in the early eighties and all those HBO specials, he keeps trying to one up himself when he talks about it, he seems excited about where things can go. Yeah. And what he might be able to do with this art form.

It looks so gratifying. The legacy looked like fun to me. Yeah. So

Amit: that's where I'd start. And this goes to the point too, about the recurrence of [00:55:30] the jokes and the misattribution and everything. He actually built that system that enables that.

Michael: I also think that there's something really interesting here around this self-confidence question and surrendering outcomes that he seems to me very aware of his own ego and the risks that come with over-inflating his own ego, while still being a very, very confident I have something to say and I've got a platform to say it.

Kind of person. So that line of confidence cockiness, I think he walked that in [00:56:00] a diligent and incredible way. That looks very enviable to me.

Amit: Yeah. I think another point I would make is the assaulted of the barricades, but I'm gonna reduce that to just being uninhibited.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: So you talk about freedom.

There's no greater way than feeling like you are unrestrained in your thought process and that you have a platform to go out and speak it. To thousands, tens of thousands, and ultimately as the years go on, millions of people. Yeah. That's the ultimate freedom.

Michael: I'll add another one. I think that there's something [00:56:30] authentic.

I, I know that word's overused the way that I see running through his life on and off stage. I. I was really impressed by how his widow and how his daughter talk about him. And I think that can only be true if he is willing to reveal truths about who he is to the people who love and care about him. His interpersonal relationships strike me as humbling.

Mm-Hmm. But also I think he actually knew. How to give love and how [00:57:00] to be loved, and to the extent that he didn't, he learned it. Yes. And that's a hell of a reason to want this life. So if we were to try and summarize our arguments for why you would want this life, one, the legacy in terms of what you've done, what this person did, what George Carland did for the comedy and entertainment industry.

Two, I think the uninhibited sense of freedom. That he experienced three, the self-confident and cockiness sort of line that he managed to [00:57:30] walk. Yeah, and then I think four is like the love, the love and be loved. So with that, James VanDerBeek, I am George Carlin, and you want my life.

So Amit, speed round here, plugs for past shows, what's coming up for you? This is an odd one, but actually

Amit: Dick Clark.

Michael: Oh,

Amit: interesting. When you talk about reinvention decade by decade. Yeah. It's one thing I learned from our Dick Clark episode is how much he was actually able to [00:58:00] reinvent.

Michael: Yeah. Okay. I'm gonna go Gary Shandling.

Maybe that's obvious, but I think such an underappreciated comedic genius. Plus Judd Apatow made documentaries about both these guys and they're both really good. Yeah. So Dick Clark was eavesdropper. Yeah. One of our most cleverly titled episodes. Yeah. Well, he said Humbly. And Gary Sling was Zen comedian.

Correct. Here's a little preview for the next episode of Famous Eng Gravy. She once said her acting was [00:58:30] purely intuitive, as she said, quote. What I try to do is give the maximum emotional effect with the minimum of visual movement,

Archival: not Angela Lansbury,

Michael: not Angela Lansbury. Famous and gravy listeners, we love hearing from you.

If you wanna reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousenggravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and our social channels. Famous Eng Gravy is Co-hosted by me, Michael [00:59:00] Osborne and Ahma Kaur. This episode was produced by Ali Ola and original music by Kevin Strang.

Thanks and see you next time.