086 Boundary Breaker transcript (Barbara Walters)

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Amit: [00:00:00] This is Famous and Gravy biographies from a different point of view. Now for the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2022, age 93. In 1976, she became known as the Million Dollar baby because she signed a five year million dollars a year contract.

Friend: Um, million Dollar Baby, not Gloria Swanson.

Was it? Not

Michael: Gloria Swanson. She was married three times in all and between [00:00:30] marriages. She dated many prominent and powerful men. Among them, Senator John Warner of Virginia and the Federal Reserve Chairman, Alan Greenspan. Oh, I know this. I know this. That was Taylor. She was very more than that. Oh. Oh, I dunno more clues.

She drove a motorcycle with Sylvester Stallone, danced the Mambo with Patrick Swayze, and rode a patrol boat with Fidel Castro across the Bay of Pigs. Oh,[00:01:00]

I have no clue. She tried to intervene in a vitriolic spat between Rosie O'Donnell and Donald J. Trump. Barbara Walters, today's dead celebrity is Barbara Walters.

When I'm told sometimes that I pave the way for other women journalists, I'm very proud, [00:01:30] but it's not something that I did deliberately. I've always been able to assert myself, but afraid to assert myself. Part of me that's happiest, I guess, behind the camera, behind the lights. It's the way I have lived my career.

You learn from everything you do. And as my career is coming to an end, I look back and think, look who I [00:02:00] met. Look what I saw.

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And I'm Amit Kaur. And on this show, we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century and present a new narrative. Most biographies focus on legacies and accomplishments, but we are interested in the journey, the process, the experiences. What didn't we know?

What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us [00:02:30] about ourselves today? Barbara Walters died 2022, age 93. Category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Barbara Walters, who broke Barriers for Women as the first female co-host of the Today Show and the first female anchor of a network evening news program, and who as an interviewer of celebrities became one herself helping to blur the line [00:03:00] between news and entertainment.

Died on Friday at her home in Manhattan. She was 93. This is not one sentence. That is not one sentence. Let's just

Amit: talk about the ands co at the Today Show and first female anchor and who has an interviewer of celebrities, game one

Michael: herself, and then comma, helping to blur the line between news and entertainment.

So there's like, and entertainment. This is not a single sentence.

Amit: Where do you wanna start? Well, I think an easy place to start is they started with the word broke. Broke barriers. Yeah. I like that. I like [00:03:30] that.

Michael: That's like our first verb. So there's a lot of firsts in here. First female co-host and first female anchor of a network.

Evening news. She was the first woman on TV news in so many ways, right? For me, there's one massive oversight. The view. Yeah. I mean, look, I'm not a big view fan. This falls into the category of TV that I mostly didn't watch or it was on the background. I wasn't paying attention. It's, it's still on Michael.

It's not targeted at me though it never was. Right. If you would like to get a balanced view, yes, but, but there's this whole [00:04:00] final chapter of her career that is the view, which is an unbelievable. Property, right? Yeah. 20, 27 years running. But, and also has this like storied history and I kind of can't believe they didn't mention that.

And instead they have this line helping to blur the line between news and entertainment. That's a dig. Yes. What I don't like about the criticism, and we're absolutely gonna talk about this later, is how good she was as an interviewer. Right? And, and, and so to me, I kind of don't like that it's in the [00:04:30] first line of the obituary.

Because it feels a little outdated in my mind to draw these stark lines between news and entertainment. I think one thing we have learned over the last 5, 10, 15 years is that maybe this is all entertainment. Mm-Hmm. You know, if it's on tv, it's entertainment. And I understand that. We try and have an approach to this is the news and it needs to be said in a certain way.

But I'm sorry, I, I've really. Come to, I don't wanna get into media [00:05:00] theory here, but that, that I did tell you about reading that book, um, amusing Ourselves to Death. Oh yes, that book is great. And it's basically a criticism of television and I think most of it applies to the internet and social media and so forth.

Sorry, I'm going on at length about this, so I need to cut myself off. But my point is that I don't like it as a dig, and it does feel like they chose to include that instead of mentioning the view. Could be, you

Amit: know, but let me, I, I think you talked to yourself out of your own argument. Yeah. You might be.

Right. So you said that, you know, in the last five, [00:05:30] 10 years, we, it's just a known fact that there is a blur between news. I wouldn't go in far so

Michael: far as to say known fact, but I do think the lines have only gotten blurry. Correct. And, and this was, was always true. That's my point.

Amit: Yes, maybe it is, but somebody has to show it and highlight it.

Yeah. Which is what she did. Yeah. And especially if, so, if you're reading the newspaper at the end of 2022, when Barbara Walters dies, so much of what could be on your mind of consuming any news is, how did we get here? You're right. How did we get into this very blurry line between news and entertainment?

And here they're just. [00:06:00] Pointing out this was one of the starting points, and so I don't think it's unnecessary. I'm not a second. Sure. If it's a wait second, it, it has some sexist roots though, and I think that has to be pointed out. Whoa. I think it does. Okay. Well let's get there in a second. Okay. Oh, I want to address your thing is did this take the place of mentioning her third potential big accolade?

The view

Michael: and the thing we most remember her for modern audiences. Probably questionably. Millennials absolutely know her if they know her at all, if they even know

Amit: her, if they even know that she created the View. She hasn't been on it, and she wasn't even on it for [00:06:30] like eight years prior to her death.

Michael: Okay. Point taken. Go on.

Amit: Okay, so they made a double point, right? So they said, who has an interviewer of celebrities became one herself, which helped to blur the lines between news, entertainment. It's a double line, making the same point. They could have inserted the view and made one of those points.

Mm-Hmm. But I will say in your defense that I don't think it's a necessary first line of obituary thing that she became this self-fulfilling prophecy of becoming a celebrity herself and blurring the lines. I just don't think that's the biggest part of the story. [00:07:00] Yeah. And, and so I don't know that it belongs, but I don't think it's inaccurate.

I

Michael: think that's

Amit: ex

Michael: I think I totally

Amit: agree.

Michael: I think

Amit: I totally

Michael: agree. I mean, I. Okay. Can I talk about the sexist roots briefly? I think we have to. I, I think that that was the criticism of her from a largely male establishment that does date back to her early interviews, interviewing Fidel Castro in 77, and then interviewing, I mean, everybody throughout the eighties.

It's the way it was thought of then. The so-called hard news. [00:07:30] A woman couldn't do it. The audience wouldn't accept. Her voice, she couldn't go into the war zones. She couldn't ask the tough questions. The fact that I did ask the tough questions was something that was very controversial.

Michael: She represented a different kind of approach.

I. To premier interviews, to exclusive interviews, to Marques interviews in a way that rubbed people wrong. And I do think that because she was the first woman to do that, some of that is rooted in a sexist mentality. Yeah.

Amit: [00:08:00] And you know, when I first read it, I didn't read all of this as a dig so much as you did.

I mean, I see your point in that by a woman entering a man's world, she's blurring these lines and they're making a sexist. Point in that, but I'm just reading it as an empowering point, is that, you know, oh, thank, thank God somebody came along and pointed out that news is entertainment. Correct. And that like, and that Stodginess is done.

Which is, it's, it's, it's over World War ii. It was 30 years before she became an, a nighttime anchor. Yeah. Like, it's just, yeah.

Michael: That's, that's [00:08:30] actually an interesting point. I mean, I read it as a criticism and I'm, I'm coming outta the gate defending Barbara Walters. Much to my own surprise, I, we'll be defending her for weeks to come.

I think I, I guess it, you said the right thing here. This is an interesting idea that should have been drawn out over multiple paragraphs further down in the obit. It's not first line stuff

Amit: to me or perhaps through this entire episode and well, themes of it I'm sure already do. Before we score, I, I do need to point out something.

She died at home in Manhattan. Yeah. This is very Nora Ephron. Yes. If you remember [00:09:00] her obituary. 'cause Barbara Walters, like, this was one thing I learned that I, that I, I kind of loved, but not quite five things. Love is, she never had a driver's license or a car. I know. She is so New York. I know. And so I like that they included that she died at her home in Manhattan.

Michael: Yeah. That's good. Okay. I have my score. You go ahead. I gotta go six here. I almost went seven. I do think that there's a lot of accuracy here. Uh, basically I'm docking two points for the view and I'm docking another two points for introducing this dig without really [00:09:30] drawing it out. I almost went seven 'cause you almost talked me up to the like, maybe that is actually I can, that I should

Amit: sell

Michael: you a car like every few weeks or something.

Well, you showed me a podcast that's, I think that went the other way around. We're gonna go back a few years. That's a good point. Anyway, so yeah, I, I mean it's like 6.4, but I'm going six.

Amit: I'm, I'm a pretty solid eight. The view maybe, maybe be not as an omission. It, it would've, I it would've been nice. What I particularly don't like is just this double point is became a celebrity herself and blurred the lines we, we've discussed not even sure if that was necessary.

[00:10:00] Certainly not needed to, to basically repeat it twice. Yeah. And so I dock it for that. But I do love the long run on sentence and the fact that this is not a sentence at all, but they made it one.

Yeah.

Amit: I, I'm kind of. Baking that into a higher score.

Michael: Yeah. So it's an eight. Uh, 600. An eight. That feels about right actually.

Okay. Category two, five things I love about you here. Amit and I develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived. Where do you wanna go? Uh, you can go ahead. Okay. I'm gonna just, 'cause we started talking about it a [00:10:30] little bit. I wrote down interview prep Barbara Walters prepared like crazy.

Yes. For interviews.

At one point you had terrible anxiety attacks. Mm-Hmm. Oh, you did do your homework. Oh, I did do my homework. You did? I,

Amit: I don't know when I talked about that. How did you find that out?

How'd you find out about that? 2002? You told me you wanted to wait to have sex until after you married.

I said that.

Michael: I really like the Barbara [00:11:00] Walters over prepare approach. One. I think this does actually speak to some of the stuff we were talking about in the obituary that if you want to criticize her, she reintroduces a tremendous amount of integrity by doing her homework and by obsessing about somebody in the lead up to a conversation, people have said that she knew more about them than they did about themselves and I the things that they'd forgotten about themselves, and there was this sort of sleight of hand put people at ease, you know?

People cried in a lot of her interviews. They were forthcoming. They didn't see it [00:11:30] coming. Even if they knew they should have seen it coming. It was a unbelievable gift. And it all started with I am preparing for a conversation as, uh, somebody who works in podcasting. I really admire that. But more than that, I'd like that it's.

Honoring somebody, and it's not just like you have earned yourself a Barbara Walters interview. It's more like, I want to do justice to this person. It's genuine, and I think it's also what brought out the best version of her. There's a real lesson to that for me, and whether it's. Interviews on TVs or [00:12:00] podcasts or whatever it is that turning the spotlight on somebody else is just always a healthy thing to do.

Yeah. You know, so it's interview prep as a bigger idea in a way of taking the spotlight off of yourself, which I think we all struggled to do. Yep. So that's my number one.

Amit: Okay. Number two, I'm gonna say she took a limitation and blew it outta the water. Mm. So a lot of the obituary referred to all of the barrier breaking that she did.

But it was a rough, rough road for Barbara as she became first nightly news [00:12:30] anchor. Mm-Hmm. And even before that, as she became the first co-host of the Today Show. Right. People got in her way a lot. Yeah. And it's specifically these entrenched male anchors. So they would impose all these little rules, like she cannot speak first, or she cannot take the first interview or two within a newscast.

Yeah. So in that latter restriction, this restriction that they made up for her, the exception was though, if you don't do an interview in studio, it doesn't have to follow that sequence. Mm-Hmm. Right. And so she started doing these more [00:13:00] onset interviews in people's homes out. For example, like out on a ranch, wherever they may be, she would meet them where they were.

And the result of that is that became a Both legendary. Yeah. And secondly, like her signature interview and more or less like the signature interview for a very personal tell all for the better part of 30 plus years. Yeah. And it was all started with this, no, you can't go first thing. Yeah. And so I love that she took what.

Was a restriction meant to [00:13:30] kind of punish her and turned it around and made it better than the original thing from which she was excluded.

Michael: Creativity comes from constraint, right? It's such a lesson in that idea. And I think like the breakthrough moment was interviewing Fidel.

Amit: Yeah. 1977. That was like, I mean, what an odd breakthrough interview to have.

Totally. To interview Fidel Castro in 1977. In Cuba. In Cuba. But she would ride around in his Jeep and he would hold like his gun.

Fidel Castro came to our hotel early this morning. To take us on a tour of the island in his Jeep. [00:14:00] He likes to drive himself. So he did the first stop the young pioneers camp, 20 minutes outside of Havana.

Amit: He came to meet her at her hotel for breakfast, and people were like, why the hell is Fidel Castro like here in this hotel? Totally. They crossed the Bay of Pigs together. Yeah. In a boat. But she did all of these things. She went on Ronald Reagan's ranch. There's tons and tons of these things that are all kind of hallmark TV moments.

Michael: Yeah. So what, how did you summarize that one? I said she took a limitation and blew it [00:14:30] outta the water. Took a limitation and blew it outta the water. Well said. Uh, number three. Yep. Okay. Kind of corny provider. Provider. Yeah. Okay. Part of the reason she is the first woman in so many ways on TV news is that we'll get more into the family life in a minute, but there came a moment in her young adult life where it became very, very clear to her, I've gotta provide for my family, for my mother, and my father and my sister.

Are you talking about the father's suicide attempt? Yes. Yes. Like. She had that idea early on. [00:15:00] It's born of insecurity. Mm-Hmm. And I think it never went away. I think it, it got instilled in her psychology, like, I need to work so that I can provide. But what's sort of funny is that it is at a time where it's not clear.

That she could have done it

Amit: 28 at this like pivotal

Michael: turning point and coming off her first divorce. Yes. I mean, and she's like, I have got to figure this out. I am gonna kick myself into action and figure out a way to provide for my family. It's a small idea, I guess, but I admire when somebody [00:15:30] steps up like that, and I do think that that set her on a course that determined the rest of her life.

Amit: Yeah, and I, I think we need to share the story a little bit. Basically, her father, who was a very up and down financially, um, but he was an entertainment guy. He owned nightclubs, big nightclubs, including the Latin corner where

Michael: Rodney Dangerfield played.

Amit: Yes, past episodes, but definitely a very up and down type of guy, both in terms of what he accumulated and I think how he acted.

Michael: Yeah, I, he would have great riches and then he'd gamble it away. [00:16:00] I mean, he was a major risk taker and irresponsible. Yes. And

Amit: Barbara's mother was, she describes her as a perpetually unhappy woman. Right. So when the father attempted suicide, when Barbara was 28. Well, and I think we need to mention the sister, sister who has special needs and, and, and, and I'll, I'll, yeah, I'll wrap that in in a second.

So the, the father attempted suicide when Barbara is 28. The mother can't even handle it, or doesn't even feel like it's, she didn't call the hospital. She called Barbara. She called, she called Barbara. And Barbara was the one that added. Take the father to the

Michael: hospital. He did survive. And he was enough of a figure that she had to manage the news [00:16:30] coverage of this moment.

Yes. Right. And keep it out of the news, what had happened. Yeah. I mean, he's a guy

Amit: that used to hang out with Frank Sinatra. 'cause he used to come to the club all the time. Right. Milton Burl. Yes. But she said they was at that moment that she realized that like, this family is, I'm gonna have to be at the helm of it.

Yeah. And then the other part of that was her, her sister, who she was very close to was special needs. Yeah. And would not be able to provide for herself financially. And so Barbara, at that moment realized I got a. Make a killing. 'cause I've gotta look after both generations of this family. Not even just [00:17:00] myself or just my sister, but also my parents.

And I admire and I love that about her. Okay. Uh, so it's third three. So number four, I'm, I'm actually gonna build on that story a little bit. And this is the sister and daughter. So the sister we just alluded to, a named Jacqueline was. Special needs. Barbara loved her very much. I think that's all she can say.

It was a complicated relationship, I think, when they were teens, because Barbara kind of had to look after her a little much in some ways felt like she was robbed of her own teen years 'cause she couldn't go on dates or something, for example, because her sister was unable to. Right. [00:17:30] But she still loved her sister dearly and really did live for her sister.

The nature of the disability is a little hard to describe. I mean that special needs, I think is what we would call it now. Barbara, I'm sure it had a lot more. Barbara,

Michael: we used today, autistic somehow, but I'm not sure there was a. A diagnosis. We understand. I think Barbara said we would

Amit: use developmentally disabled right now.

Yeah. Anyway. But overall she did love her sister very much and felt very strongly for her sister and what her sister was unable to do. So when Barbara finally had a daughter by adoption after she'd gone through some miscarriages. Yep. She names her [00:18:00] daughter. After her sister. So she names her daughter Jacqueline later just goes by Jackie.

Yeah. And the reason she chose to name her after her sister is she said, I knew my sister was never going to be married and get to have a child. And I wanted her to have part of the joy that I was experiencing in being a mother. Wow. And so I just like that as a gesture.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: I don't think I need to add to that.

I don I like that. That's a thing to add as a gesture.

Michael: We

Amit: have a fifth thing. Do you have a fifth thing that you like? Uh, yeah, I definitely [00:18:30] can. Okay. You take it. So you said interview prep? Yeah. Right. I'm gonna go specifically with the killer question. Mm. Yeah. That she had. So she was known for a few bombshell questions that she asked, and I guess that there's so much to say here.

I'm just gonna go with two things. Okay. So one is my personal favorite is she had this question of what is your personal philosophy?

Yeah.

Amit: Which I just love that question 'cause it's the type of thing that just. Breaks it up and you're not talking about news and the weather, and that's what Barbara Walters was all about is, let's get a little deep.

So here's just some examples of how people answered. What is [00:19:00] your personal philosophy? Yeah. Arnold Schwarzenegger. Stay hungry. Will Smith. I don't embrace negativity. Chris Rock might have differed a few years later. Uh, Nancy Reagan, everybody has a purpose. Uh, Liam Nees and I just like this. Take every moment as it comes and be as truthful to yourself as possible.

In each of those moments, they called those killer questions, but she actually was known for. Killer questions too that she would ask some really hard ones. You mean like Of killers? [00:19:30] Of Killers? Potential killers. So, uh, yeah, like

Michael: David Chapman, Vladimir Putin. Is that where we're going? The Vladimir

Amit: Putin story I think is the one I want to tell.

Yeah. Is that she got to interview Putin. This was not long after nine 11 and it was in Russia and she had to write down all of her questions. 'cause you know Russian security. Right. But she didn't run write down this question. 'cause then she knew they might block it. Yes. So she went and. Asked the question last, but was not written down, and she said, Mr.

Putin, have you ever ordered a kill on somebody? And he said,

Michael: yet, yet, [00:20:00] yet,

Amit: yeah. But she, she was just notorious for these brilliant piercing questions.

Michael: I mean. I think that when you do that kind of interview prep, you can have some real confidence to go there. I think she earns that, right? Or at least that's the philosophy, which is cool.

Okay. Recap. Recap. Okay. Number one, I said interview prep. Number two, you said took a limitation and blew it outta the water. Number three, I said provider number four. You said sister, daughter, and then you said, killer Question for number five. Great list. All right, let's move on. [00:20:30] Category three, net worth in this category.

Amit and I write down our numbers ahead of time. We will then look up the net worth number in real time and the person closest to the actual number will explain their reasoning. Finally, we will place Barbara Walters on the famous eng gravy net worth leaderboard. Amit Kippur wrote down 140 million.

Amit: Wow.

Okay, Michael Osborne, 125 million. So we're kind of close as a percentage. This is about the closest we've ever we've been. Yeah.

Michael: And Barbara [00:21:00] Walters net worth is 170 million.

Amit: Yes, you're closer. I win prices. Right. And proximity rules. Um. So our agreement is whoever is closer should give their explanation.

Yeah. But I think we're gonna have similar thinking here. Go ahead. Yeah. We knew it'd be a large number. Yes. Right. So in 19, what you referred to in the quiz in 1976, you had a million dollars salary, which was the highest of any news anchor. Male or female. Correct. That million dollars salary in today's dollars, depending on whether you wanna count for inflation or price index, that's a [00:21:30] very significant salary, probably in the five to $10 million range in the year 2000 she signed.

A five year contract, a renewal with A B, C, which was $12 million a year. Yeah. This one was making a lot of money just on her primary job. These are excluding some of the other specials she did and excluding the View, which started in 1997. That's the one. Yes. And went on. I mean, the residuals from that 'cause they were paying the hosts of the View anywhere from.

One to $8 million. You just imagine is that much. Holy cow. Yeah. Created executive producer. Yeah, absolutely. [00:22:00] So I, I knew there would be a windfall. Yeah. And so I aimed a little bit low, but, but I knew Barbara would be rich. And so Rich, the number was 1 60, 1 70, sorry. So she basically grabs the number seven spot of all time on Famous and Gravy.

Okay. Tell me who's around her. Just above her is John Madden, and just below her is Prince. Okay.

Michael: Should we move on? Yes. Category four, little Lebowski, urban achievers.

Archival: They're the little Lebowski. Urban achievers. Yeah. The achievers. Yes. And proud. We are, of all [00:22:30] of them.

Michael: In this category, we choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, or any other form of a hat tip that we wanna bring into the conversation.

I'll go first, um, because

Amit: I really hope you're going where we. Need to go. Of

Michael: course. Okay. SNL parodies. Yes. I mean, you had to, when I asked my wife, you know, who we're doing next, and she's like, who? I said, Barbara Walters. The first thing she said was. Barbara Wawa,

exactly. I was told that I didn't pronounce my Rs and that's when Baba Wawa [00:23:00] was being done on Saturday Night Live.

Archival: This is Baba Wawa.

I hated Baba Wawa. What

Archival: was Whiz Wei? White Richard.

Michael: And. I go back and forth on who had the better cameo between Gilda Radner, who had it first, who had better impersonation, better, I'm sorry, better impersonation between Gilda Radner, who did it first. That was in the mid seventies when Barbara Walters was on her sort of celebrity ascent.

Yes, and Sherry o Terry. I think I [00:23:30] prefer the Sherry o Terry really. I

Amit: think so. It was less of a caricature.

Michael: Sherry Oter, I think is an underrated SNL cast member, just the way her kind of eyes would go off into the mid space and she'd have that like quirky look on her face. Yes, that I eat up that kind of humor.

This I thought was worth describing. Barbara Walters speech impediment is described as a lateral lisp. Have you ever read that term before? Lateral li

Amit: I can share something with you. Michael, go ahead. I could not pronounce my s as a child. No. Yeah. Really? Yes. You went to a speech [00:24:00] therapist? I did. I had to go once a week, at least once a week.

I had to go into like a special closet within the elementary school. No shit. I have to work with a speech pathologist to get my Rs down.

Michael: Are you, is it gonna come back with just you talking about it now?

Amit: I

Michael: hope not. I

Amit: don't know. I guess our listeners will tell us if they're detecting it. Oh wow. Ahmad, God damn.

Yeah, I didn't, I don't think I got the label that she got, but this was definitely three or four years of, of speech therapy. So when did to get my Rs down? Yeah.

Michael: Holy cow. When did, so, when did it get, you know, corrected? If, I think by fourth or fifth [00:24:30] grade. Yeah, it was running on its own. Well, I'm glad you got your ours.

Thank you. Yeah. So I, yeah, if I have to choose, I'm going. She, Terry, even though I love that Gilda Radner. Oh, one quick thing on Gilda Radner. Did you read about this when she died? Gilda Radner. Barbara Walters sent a note to Gene Wilder. Yeah. Who check out that episode. Pure Imagination. Yeah. Pure Imagination.

And signed it. Bob Wall. Wawa. Yeah. Even though she, she hated it. Yeah. Even though she hated it. And she also went to speech therapy. Oh, no doubt. But like I know I didn't see her there. But you didn't overlap, but yeah. [00:25:00] So that was my little bestie, urban achiever. Yeah, no doubt. Like that's probably what I knew her for most.

I think. So was that impression? Yeah. This is one of those cases where the impression was almost more famous

Amit: and lasted so long beyond even Gilda Ratter stint on SNL. She

Michael: did an interview with Bette Davis, the Hollywood actress who told Barbara Walters. It is good that you're being caricatured. This means you're gonna have legacy.

Totally. This, you're gonna be remembered. Take this as a positive. Totally. So, I mean, it sounds like it did hurt her feelings. Why wouldn't it? But ultimately, I, I do think we're gonna remember [00:25:30] a little bit more because she was ridiculed so often.

Amit: No doubt. Yeah. Okay. So my achievers, Barbara's name is dropped a lot in songs, movies.

TV shows, so I, I just pulled out a couple of my favorites. Okay. One was in half-Baked. You familiar with Half Dave Chappele movie? Yes. The Dave Chap very early, like Dave Chappelle breakthrough. Even John Stewart Yeah. Was in it. Neil Brenan, co-produced it. Like pretty much anybody that's in that movie really Nelson is in it.

Good. Yeah. So there's a scene that Dave Chappelle's character, Thurgood is going to sell pot to, like this local kingpin named Sir [00:26:00] Smoke a Lot. Mm-Hmm. And then next, and I'll, I'll wrap this up where the parallel is. Brad Paisley country singer had a song in 2003 called Celebrity.

Archival: I Get to cry to Barbara Walters when things don't go my way.

Amit: So both of these are about Barbara Walters as a vehicle for kind of emotional outpouring. Yeah, and this was so penetrated into our own psyche of like Barbara Walter's ability to produce tear or to produce the inner [00:26:30] truth out of people that it's mocked, but in a quite. A loving way here in both of these pop culture references, and if one thing is to be remembered for your sort of like lisp in seriousness, I think this is a great contrast to that of like how awesome that you are parody, mocked, or just referenced for being somebody that people open up to emotionally.

That's a good way of looking at it. Okay.

Michael: Next category. Yes. All right, one love. In this category, we each choose a word or [00:27:00] phrase that characterizes their loving relationships. Before we select our word or phrase, we are going to review the family life data. Okay? So one correction here, even Wikipedia says Walters was married four times to three different men.

This is a mistake apparently that got reprinted. All over the place. I kept seeing it. Her biographer, Susan Pager, wrote this book was like, I really tried to chase this down. This is not true. Anyway, there are three marriages, but they did all bend poorly. But there

Amit: [00:27:30] was, you're saying it, there was three marriages to three.

Three

Michael: marriages

Amit: to three different men. It is a little funny though that this coming right off the Rodney Dangerfield episode, who actually did marry the same woman twice.

Michael: Yes. Okay. Marriage one. Robert Henry Katz, 1955 to 1957. Barbara was about 24, divorced at 26. She really tried to. But didn't, like this one didn't happen.

There's even a funny story like late in her seventies or something. She's walking into a party and she says, oh, hello to somebody, and the, she turns their person, that was my first husband and they just had this nice smile and that was it. [00:28:00] There's no contact. This is just a mistake. Okay. Okay. Marriage number two.

Feeling for Henry Katz a little bit right now. I do. I think he goes on to actually have a a, a loving marriage and a good life as I recall. Okay. Marriage two, Lee Gruber 19. 63 to 1976. Barbara was 34 when they got married, divorced at, uh, 47. You mentioned this earlier. Three miscarriages. This is where they, uh, adopted Jackie.

And then finally the third marriage, Merv Adelson. This is the one where people say she married him in 81, and that didn't happen. [00:28:30] Merv was still married to somebody else in 81. They got married in 1986, divorced in 1992. Barbara was 57. Diviv, uh, divorced at 63. So it. Is remarked upon by just about everybody that she struggled in her personal life.

Yes. And she's sort of the first to say that

Archival: you were married more than once. Why didn't the marriages work?

I don't think that I was very good at marriage. It may be that my career was just too important. Uh, it may [00:29:00] have been that I was a difficult person to be married to, and I just seemed to be better.

Uh, alone. I'm not lonely. I'm alone. Do you wanna start

Michael: with your one word or phrase?

Amit: Yes. Okay. So my phrase is, I did it my way, I. Oh, so Barbara, first of all, was a big proponent of this statement of you can't have it all. You know, she tried, she wanted to have it all, obviously, and she adopted a child because she wanted that love and that joy.

She knew that those were [00:29:30] are meaningful things in life. Yeah. And she certainly tried her hand and marriage three times. Eventually she just said, okay, I'm not trying anymore. This isn't for me. You know what really gives me drive love and joy is the impact I have through my work and. In the world. I love my daughter very much.

That was a very tough teenage years from what I understand with her daughter. She was not there and available. I strangely, just like her own father was not there for her during that same time period. [00:30:00] But ultimately Barbara said, I'm just better off alone. I have fun with myself alone. I like myself. And that's ultimately where she landed.

And I'm not saying she's that. Peace with it. Okay. I'm just saying she tried her hand, she tried to do the things that she knew, brought her maximum love and joy. Yeah. And she let the other ones sort of aside. I'm not saying she made a hundred percent peace with it, but she at least. Did it [00:30:30] her way and she thought life was still pretty damn good to her overall.

Michael: Okay. I like that you went positive here, and I like that you're telling an affirmative story about her and her decisions because I do think it is fairly conscious I did not go. Positive here. Okay. What I wrote down, I'm not sure is the right phrase. It made a lot of sense in my head when I wrote it down, but I'm gonna try and draw it out.

I wrote down third person, singular. Interesting. I think where I'm going with this, like L aa. Okay. So I do think that [00:31:00] there is a. Case to be made that her family of origin explains a lot of her psychology. And this is certainly the argument in, uh, in the Susan Page book that she had a father who acclimated her to show business and to celebrity, but was also an insane risk taker and led their family into a state of permanent insecurity where they would live in lavish apartments and then they'd be on the streets up and down through much of her childhood, New York to Miami to.

California to whatever. Totally. Yeah. Yeah. I think that her [00:31:30] special needs sister was both the love and a real burden, and there's stories about her interviewing other people who had special needs siblings, and there, there is a lot of psychology about what that comes with. And then I think that, and, you know, a neurotic mother, what that comes with to a sibling Yes.

Of somebody of special needs. The effect that, and the, the out outsides, the tension. There's a story about Barbara Walters faking a stomach ache as a kid that went so far that the doctors could not diagnose it, that they ended up removing her appendix. Yeah. Right. And she faked this so that she would get [00:32:00] attention.

That tells you something about how much attention she was not getting for understandable reasons. Yeah, it's, it's

Amit: a difficult situation

Michael: back

Amit: then, especially.

Michael: Yes. Okay. So there's that. Where I went with this third person singular idea is that she also, in her interactions with her daughter at times, refers to herself in the third person.

This is always a weird thing to me when anybody refers to themselves as Barbara Walters. And the reason this is a. Problematic thing in my mind is because she's on TV so [00:32:30] much, she's got a TV persona. I think when you're on TV the way she is, the ability to distinguish between the real me, the me at home and the me at work gets really, really hard and I ended up going down.

Here's a question for you. Okay. Do you think workaholism is in the DSM? The diagnostic statistic manual. The psychiatry manual.

Amit: Uh, I don't believe it's exactly there, but I think it's couched in other stuff. Yes. It's not

Michael: okay. I looked it, but I looked it up and I really went down. A really bit of a rabbit [00:33:00] hole was like I,

Amit: it may be eventually just the same way that internet addiction probably will be soon if its not there.

It may

Michael: be, I don't know. I think it is hard in the world we live in where we prioritize work and where people enjoy a lot of their work to actually cleanly diagnose workaholism. But my point is when I looked at her life, so here's, here's a fact that I think is important. She was traveling when her father died, when her mother died, and when her.

Sister died. She wasn't able to make the death bed for any of them. And it seems kind of coincidental. It's [00:33:30] not all at the same time there. This is, these are spread out, but that tells you something about where her priorities were. Right. And I don't mean to say that as too much of a criticism because she is pioneering, she is groundbreaking, she does have the psychology that I gotta provide.

Even if she makes it to north of a hundred million dollars, she's still talking about that into her eighties of like, Ugh, I should have made some different. Financial decisions, what are you talking about? And I think that there is a tremendous amount of validation that just comes from being on TV and being important.

Yep. Third person, singular. I think where I was [00:34:00] going with that is that there's something I see removed from herself in her interpersonal relationships. There's Barbara Walters, the actual human person, real person. And there's Barbara Walters, the TV personality. Yeah. And I think her ability to parse those out, it just gets, gets lost.

So that's what I went with. I think we're both right. That's usually the case. Yeah. Yeah. But it's two, two completely perspectives on a story. Yeah. I, she, and she is explicit about the sacrifice [00:34:30] and she's, I mean, her main rival is Diane Sawyer, who's married to Mike Nichols and seems to have this wonderful marriage and she, at times seems to express real, you know, envy around that.

Yeah, she expressed envy a lot, and that's more of a man in the

Amit: mirror question, which we'll get to.

Michael: Yeah. Category six words to live by. In this category, we choose a quote. These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about this person that resonated for us in a certain way. I got a nice, simple one.

Okay. Deep breaths are very helpful at shallow parties. True. I like [00:35:00] these words a lots. I ended up going to a lot of shallow parties. I would betrayed that. Like the Dalai Lama, I know who she interviewed. Yeah. Deep breaths are very helpful at shallow parties. I need to be reminded when I'm feeling insecure in a social situation where there's room full of strangers that are talking about things that I'm not interested in.

The deep breaths are helpful. Yeah. All right, so

Amit: what was yours? Okay. Mine is a quote that she wrote. I believe this was from her book. I'm gonna read the whole mini paragraph, but it's only one sentence that I care about. Okay. To excel is to reach your own highest dream, [00:35:30] but you must also help others where and when you can to reach theirs.

Personal gain is empty if you do not feel you have positively touched another's life. Oh, wow. Yeah,

Michael: and I think

Amit: this is

Michael: sort of the counter, the counter to my interview prep thing and the killer question thing.

Amit: Well, I think it also gets that you're a third person singular thing. Yeah. Yeah. Is that she's not only conflicted of her own commitment to her own success, but like what is the significance of it if you're only inflating yourself?

Right. This has come up a lot in some of our episodes. I'm remembering it coming up [00:36:00] in Gary Shandling. Yeah. Is that it's just like success is no good alone. You gotta use it to bring up others and that's the only way it feels good. And that just seems to be the most obvious but most misunderstood thing for anybody achieving any kind of rising success, big or small, is that it's only worthwhile if you're bringing oth others up with you.

Michael: I mean, I do think this just feels like a decent place to talk briefly about the view. I do not pretend to be an expert on the view, but there's a way in which the view is Barbara Walters. Baby, like [00:36:30] her character, strengths and weaknesses are kind of manifest in all of the hosts throughout the years.

Yeah, I mean, I think her inner conflict is the DNA of that show. What was the quote again? How

Amit: does it go? Personal gain is empty if you do not feel you have. Positively touched another's life

Michael: because I, okay. If you are as influential and as powerful as she is, and you are shaping public opinion about the newsmakers, whether they're heads of state or whether they're in the entertainment section, that is one [00:37:00] way of convincing yourself, I'm doing good in the world.

I am helping get at the truth of people and putting it on display for millions to see. But really a bigger legacy is I'm empowering others beneath me, which. She does imperfectly, but in a way that's engaging with the view. Yes. And when she retires from the view, I mean, there's an incredible, did you see this image?

Like all these women broadcasters come, Oprah and Diane saw, I mean, it's everybody. Yes. It's a really, really powerful picture. All there to like say, thank you for what you've done.

Amit: Yeah. And she, Barbara [00:37:30] welled up at that moment and said like, she kind of just spontaneously said, this is my legacy. And it's, it was really interesting.

And e even the view itself, I mean, there's been 29 hosts. It should

Michael: have been in the first line, man. It should have been in the first. Glenn. All right, let's move on. Category seven, man In the Mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about beauty so much, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment.

So first off, she gave us an answer and I'll play the clip.

On a scale of one to 10, the way would you put [00:38:00] you, if I tell you, will you tell me? Yes. A nine. Do I have to tell you? You said you were. I would say I am a,

probably a five. Oh to six.

Michael: She rates herself on a scale of 10, she says five, six. Six. Yeah. Which she's an attractive woman. She is probably, by most standards, higher than a six. Yeah. I don't know why she's putting herself as a six that says I, I [00:38:30] am less attractive than I think I am. I think it's 'cause she's surrounded by beautiful people and famous people all the time.

Makes sense. Yeah. This is my problem. Yeah. Is it? No. Okay. Anyway, so I think she likes it, but there's insecurity there. There's self-judgment there. Just about her straight up physical appearance that said, you know, she takes care of herself and looks great on TV for 50 decades. What more do you want?

Amit: Yeah.

So that, I mean, that's the physical side and, and I think you're right. I think it is underestimated. I think she actually was quite beautiful. Yeah. Didn't even well into, she was, there was a thing where

Michael: she [00:39:00] worked as, as a playmate. Did you see this? Yeah.

Amit: It was like a, that was part of her today's show

Michael: Yeah.

Stent. Yeah. Which, by the way, today's show, you know who preceded her? Florence Anderson. Yes. Yeah. Florence Anderson. Well, basically our whole catalog's coming up in the, in the Barbara Alters episode. Uh, and she was like proud that I, she was able to pass as a Playboy bunny and do a kind, I don't think it was an expose, but it was a story on the mansion in Hefner.

So said, said she, she gave an answer, but So you're saying Yes, I I think so, but it's not a heavy Yes, it's a slight, yes.

Amit: Yeah. And, and I'm going [00:39:30] a pretty soft No. Oh, I think we saw a lot of evidence, what we talked about in, in the family life, but just a feeling of inadequacy, you know? Although I did say I was one that said like she did it her way.

There was just a lot of self-doubting in the process. Yeah.

Michael: But isn't that more in your head in this category

Amit: really about appearances? No, it's self-perception. Okay. But I think even if you just make it about appearances, she's always leveling up. And like her own memoir, she called Audition and [00:40:00] a review for this, said that she called her memoir audition because she felt that her life was one competition after another, no matter how high my profile became.

This is a quote from the book, how many Awards I received, or How much money I made. My fear was that it could all be taken away from me.

Michael: Yeah. That that is ultimately irrational at some point. Right. I mean, you know, she is and she's doing some shit behind the scenes to like get scoops and get exclusives and cutting people out.

I mean, there's some real backstabbing in her career.

Amit: Yeah. And she said in an Oprah interview, [00:40:30] there are whole areas in my life in which I feel very inadequate. This is about her daughter's. Criticisms. My mommy doesn't drive. My mommy burns the meatloaf. My mommy doesn't do anything except television. Like there was all these science of in inadequacy.

That's not funny, but like, I don't know to hear it put out that way, but it's like, yeah, but that's a big deal. But inadequacy was a big thing for her. Yeah, I think this. Theme of never enough. Yes. And be that in appearances. I think a six is great. Yeah. No, I totally like, even if you're calling yourself a six, but I think she's the type of person that calls herself a six and she says that [00:41:00] she's missing four.

Not that she's like a plus six.

Michael: Yeah. I mean, I think she had to be dragged away from television in her Hades. Right. And I think it was because of cognitive decline. And she left reluctantly. And even when she retired, there was still another appearance there. I mean, I, I think that television was validating for her.

Full stop. No, you're right. I mean a soft no is an appropriate answer. I think I'm looking at it superficially here. Yeah. Which is why I'm going soft. Yes.

Amit: But I think part of the soft No is really just her own self-judgment. So you take the exact same perception that she had of [00:41:30] herself, both physically and overall presence wise.

Yeah. And other people would've been more satisfied with it.

Yes.

Amit: She ranks herself lower and I think part of that could be a consequence of the profession as well. Being around higher profile people interviewing them all the time. I think that is no question. I, I think that is self-image changer zone.

Michael: I'll take it another step further. Like I did not watch many Barbara Walters interviews, in part because I really hate the lighting. I. Of a lot of these. What? Let me draw this out. Ahman. I think I have a [00:42:00] point to make. There is something soft and you went very cherry Terry. Bug eyes as you are there is so something soft and fake about how these interviews are staged and set.

That feels so artificial to me and always has. I liked reading about her. I did not like watching because the aesthetics of television in the eighties and nineties. Smack of superficiality to me. And I wonder if, if she's watching that tape, she's seeing how she's lit, how she's presented, how she's leaning into the camera, how she's [00:42:30] capturing the tears of a celebrity.

And there's, there's something about it that rings so fucking fake to me. And it just does. It always has. And I think if you are her and are watching yourself on television, watching these interviews, which she undoubtedly had to do, your self-perception gets warped.

Amit: I so disagree with you in the lighting.

I, I loved them. I think it's great and I, I think it's too bad that you, I'm hardwar, but it doesn't

Michael: look fake to you. I don't care. Oh, but that's important. If what's being presented here is truth is news is [00:43:00] information. This gets at the criticism to me. It's not that her interview style or her stories or her choice of stories were a bad idea.

It's the presentation of that through this medium. Which is not her fault.

Amit: No, this is, I mean, this is going back to the blurring the lines of news and entertainment. Yes, but no, sometimes you have to add the elements to create the drama. You're not gonna fault a movie director for staging, lighting and doing things in a certain way in order to invoke tears in the audience.

I think this is just, I do not think that, but if you accentuate them, jeopardizing, if

Michael: you accentuate them, aren't you sort of amplifying what may or [00:43:30] may not be real? It just doesn't feel like TV news has never felt real to me.

Amit: It's impossible to be it. The actual medium is impossible. Even here in this.

Quote is exactly podcast. That is

Michael: exactly my point. This is not a criticism of Barbara Walters. This is a criticism of tv. But I think that if you all, if your whole life is built on that industry and in this job, then your self perception gets warped by it. So my

Amit: criticism of you, sir, is this, it's like this unrelenting pursuit of pure authenticity.

It's not possible. There is not pure [00:44:00] authenticity possible. Everything has a bit of manufacturing and preparation and lighting and adjustment and editing. Okay? Unless we are living in real life and you and I are doing as we did last night, and we go out to dinner and watch a basketball game, right? And a chat and drink, that's the only thing authentic out there.

The second media enters it. You are adding an element of inauthenticity. We

Michael: do not disagree here. I just don't think that that's understood. I think that that's why there is something of a media literacy crisis out there. Yes. There's no doubt that that is my real [00:44:30] point is that this is shaped and presented to us as truth as, as the way it is.

Amit: Huge, huge problem. Especially people that are younger or less educated and don't quite understand the level of manipulation. Exactly. That Mary, and,

Michael: and if you are caught up in that system. That messes with your head. It's got to, yeah. I can't believe I'm still going. Yes. And man in the mirror, but I am. Yes.

Okay. By the way, we do work in media. Yeah. Well kind of. But audio's true. What do you mean kind of? Okay. You're right. Yeah. Well, okay, look, yes, that's true and there's a meta point being made, but, [00:45:00] well, I'm gonna take 10 seconds to defend audio. I think audio is more rooted in truth. I think there's something about the human voice that has a little more truth to it.

I, I think deception is much easier when you add a visual. That's my. Personal point of view. I let your personal point of view stand. Thanks. Agree to disagree. Actually, I think we're agree. I think we agree to agree. I think we agree to agree. All right. Next categories. Coffee, cocktail, or cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity.

This maybe a question of what drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person or [00:45:30] another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them that we are most curious about. I've got a simple answer here. Okay. I want to drink Manhattans and Manhattan. Ah, I want to go to like a cocktail party with Barbara Walters and I a hell of a guest list, I'm sure.

Yeah. And I wanna shadow her 'cause all this stuff I just said about my criticisms of the staged interview. I think I would get really into watching her process and the prep. I would love to see her navigate a cocktail party who's [00:46:00] interesting. How does she talk to them? I think the world she travels in of New York socialite, half of the famous and gravy back catalog is gonna be present, whether it's Tom Wolf or Nora Fron, or.

And Philip Seymour Hoffman, who, or whoever it may be one way or another, I would love to just follow her around and drinking in cocktails. That's my coffee cocktail.

Amit: Yeah. So poor Barbara's got a lot of drinking to do because I'm gonna do the same. So she said once that her idea of heaven is a trashy novel and a glass of wine.

That's my idea of heaven too. Yeah. It's, but I, I'm gonna be the trashy [00:46:30] novel here that, that she gets to, to bring along. Never, never thought of you that way, sir. That would be a good, that's not a bad nickname for me. Yeah. I mean, it's a complete, like, on the

Michael: trashy novel.

Amit: Does it, does it fit at all?

Michael: I dunno.

We'll try it on your bio on LinkedIn. See if it takes, I don't think it fits. I trying, I can't even make up a backstory to where it fits. I can, you've told me enough stories anyway. Oh my.

Amit: Okay.

Alright. Go.

Amit: Go on. Cut tape. Go. Um, so I, I just think she's got so much information from all of the world's stories that she's experienced [00:47:00] firsthand.

Yeah. That. I, I think there's so much wisdom that's gotta be baked in there. 'cause somebody that goes and interviews all sitting presidents from what, what was the first one? Was it Johnson or Nixon? Nixon. Nixon. All the way through Obama. Somebody who has done that but has also interviewed Fidel Castro, the Shah of Iran.

Yeah. You know Michael Jackson. All these worldviews. But you have to glean something. Positive from each of them. And you do not spend a couple of days with Fidel Castro and see that there is some virtue somewhere in his life that she sees because there there is some [00:47:30] joy and some drive, and probably same with Kadafi, and same with some of the torture souls out there, like the Menendez brothers.

Yeah. And so forth. She sees all the bad, but she also sees. I don't wanna say the good, but she sees something very unique about the laws of human nature and I just think that would make her interesting AF to have a few bottles of Chardonnay with and just rap about how life goes.

Michael: Yeah, this is interesting.

I mean. I, there's a question that I have about the world [00:48:00] where I believe evil exists. That's not hard to make that case. Yeah, humans hurt each other. One thing I wrestle with is, is human nature corrupt or is human nature downstream of evil systems? And I want to believe that systems can lead people to evil direction.

So we should fix systems, not necessarily human nature. But that's an optimistic worldview. I wonder if she shares that and she'd be a good person to ask.

Amit: Yes.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: But do you believe we could do a whole nother [00:48:30] show on this, but lemme just ask this simple question. Yeah. Is anybody born evil? That's the question.

That's your question for her. But what is, what is your answer?

Michael: Yeah. Uh, I wanna fight for the worldview that says no. Yeah. I think people are born sick. I'm not sure they're born evil. I can agree with that. I want to believe that. Yeah. I want to believe that. And I, but that, that's, that's the conversation. I, I have to believe that.

And she'd be an interesting person to bat around that with. Yeah. Because she's smart as hell.

Amit: So you went cocktail, [00:49:00] I went wine specifically, but yes. I think I went chardonnay on top of that. And I don't even know if that's what Barbara wanted. That's probably about right. Yeah, I agree. I feel like it's more of a session.

Michael: This is Yeah. Yeah. Lose a tasting in. Yes, it could be. Excellent. Alright. Final category. The VanDerBeek named after James VanDerBeek, who famously said in Varsity Blues, I don't want your life, Ahmed. We're gonna work together on this to respond to James and say, here's the case for why you would want this life.

Amit: Yeah, and I think we can say quickly, there's some very obvious reasons why James [00:49:30] May be correct way. He might not want it. There's this fraught. Personal life. Yeah. There's the, the inner conflict there is the life

Michael: as a celebrity. I think there's the experience of being ridiculed on Saturday Night Live. I think that there's the pain that coming with having to bust ceilings so that you can make it in a man's world, as it were.

I mean, I think that there's a lot Yeah, there's feelings of

Amit: the feelings of inadequacy despite all that. Hell yeah. Right. There's there, it's, it's a tough one. Okay, but that's not the job we're doing here. Right. The job we're doing here is, is why you would want this life. And I have a feeling I'm gonna [00:50:00] take yours, but do you remember what we said in the Vidal Has Food episode or what you said, what about cutting hair?

You said something to the effect of, I think it looks fun as hell to just cut people's hair all the time and get to interact with that many people

Michael: while they're watching themselves in the mirror. That that was the key part of it for me, is that the scene of being in a barbershop or being in a salon, like the way people are studying themselves and you're cutting their hair almost as a distraction.

Yeah.

Amit: Yeah. So I think it's getting to know that many people in such an intimate way. Yeah. [00:50:30] And it's in such diverse settings also. So it's both like this deep interpersonal connection that you form with a lot of people, even if it's momentary, that still runs deep, long, and wide. And these incredible settings and and journey she went on.

Michael: Yeah, I think you can unpack that in a few different parts. I think the variety. That she gets to see. You know, one thing that's very, I don't know, close to our heart on this show is that on Famous and Gravy, we talk about pop stars as well as politicians, athletes, authors, and so [00:51:00] forth. It's possible you couldn't be here without Barbara.

I think there's some truth to that. I think that, you know, you and I talk about this idea of celebrities as symbols, but how do you humanize them and how do you do that on behalf of an audience? I think. You get to see exaggerated versions of human characteristics on display in celebrities. Yes. And she got to do that for 50 plus years.

60

Amit: plus years.

Michael: That was

Amit: her life. But it's not only moving, but wouldn't you also just say it's fun? Yeah, that looks like a

Michael: blast. Do that. It's a hundred percent. Yeah. I mean, [00:51:30] I, you know, screw the value, screw the ratings. Screw the, like, am I meeting the standards of journalism or am I just having a good time?

This is a good time. These are good conversations and you get to drill into people. In fact, it's. Asked of you to be a student of the human condition. I mean, in so many ways, what is it about you? What do you represent to this society and culture? Yeah. You know, what does your story have to say about who we are?

I mean, that is fun.

Amit: So I think that that was a, that was basically a two part answer in one thing, and it was, it was the closeness that you get to people, and secondly, it just pure, raw fun.

Michael: Yeah. I, I [00:52:00] think, look all of the. Cost at the interpersonal life. My theory on her is that she couldn't distinguish between being addicted to work and television versus being addicted to the interview experience.

Mm-Hmm. This woman needs a podcast, needed a, nobody else needs a podcast. Right. I, I mean, or something like that. I. Think it was a rush and it was exciting and there was a competitive element to it. But I also think that there is, in all of that, even if the industry in my mind is somewhat corrupted or at least [00:52:30] complicated, there is a virtuousness in there.

Yeah, right. There is even a, a liberation and a catharsis in turning the spotlight so bright. Yeah. On somebody else. That alone, James, is why you should want this life.

Amit: Yeah. I'm gonna bring on a second point. You know, we're, we're trying to get away from the headlines and the first line of the obituary stuff, right?

So what we saw in the first line is that she was the first co-host. She was the first evening anchor, but what she actually did is she changed broken system for the better. And I think that's slightly different than [00:53:00] just being the first to do that in. Breaking through glass ceilings, so to speak, because anybody that can do that on any element as small or as big as they need to be, that is the significance.

Yeah. Changing any system that is changing, broken and changing. The power. Changing power. Totally. And that can happen at the most microscopic of levels, right? Right. That can happen in elementary school. That can happen in your workplace, it can happen wherever, but anybody that gets to do that in the course of their life has [00:53:30] done something very worthwhile.

She happened to do it on this scale that we're still talking about because we're still not past gender inequality, and so we're still talking about it in a headlining way. But if I just want to, let's just forget the whole story and just say you changed the broken system for the better. I think that's pretty great.

I agree. I have one more. Okay. I. She proved it herself. You know, she said on her tombstone, this is the second consecutive person that we've had that actually had a quote on their tombstone, and she said, no regrets. I had great life. And I don't think you're gonna lie on your tombstone. Right. [00:54:00] And it's just, I'm saying for all these, I, I might

Michael: lie on my tombstone.

You

Amit: are. I had, I had hair and Perfect hearing you. Yeah. Um.

Michael: Yeah. No, I think, uh, I like that point number three is the tombstone. Yeah.

Amit: Yeah. It's the evidence, there's the ups and downs and there's all these little things to say, but I think if you're gonna leave behind your body Yeah. And put above it, I had a good life.

Yeah. Okay, so let's wrap it all up. Okay. Right. So we said it looked like fun and along with the same fun, there was a closeness to [00:54:30] people. Yes. Secondly, she changed her broken system for the better, which can happen on a very small scale. And lastly, she said it herself. I had a great life. All right. No, you take it.

Okay. So I am Barbara Walters, and you want my life.

Michael: Okay, speed round time. What are some past episodes that if you enjoyed this episode of Famous Eng Grave, you might go listen to [00:55:00] I got one in mine. I'm Want Mary Tyler Moore. I mean they, what's funny about, uh, all the people who came out to praise Barbara Walters when she died by Katie Couric and, and Oprah, they are also the same people who are like, I loved the Mary Tyler Moore show, and that paved the way the Mary Tyler Moore show preceded Barbara Walters.

Yes, I think it's really important and, uh, not to. coincidental. Yeah. Uh, so I'd encourage people to check out that episode.

Amit: Okay. Yeah. So who you got? I got weird feelings of John Madden. The title of John Madden episode was Game Changer. Yeah, right. They really changed the way things were done, and even him as a [00:55:30] broadcaster from a journalistic point of view, that is exactly what Barbara Walters did in a completely different segment of journalism.

Michael: Awesome. I love it. Marriage. Heather Moore and John Madden. Uh, we'll link to 'em in the show notes. Here is a preview for the next episode of Famous Gravy.

In the 1970s, he moved to New York to study dance, becoming a member of Elliot Feld Ballet.

Friend: Oh my God. Walkin. [00:56:00] Luckily, as of this recording, Christopher Watkins still with us.

Amit: Famous and Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you. If you want to reach out with a comment question or to participate in our opening quiz, email us at hello@famousandgravy.com.

In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and social channels. Famous and Gravy is created and Co-hosted by Michael Osborne and me, Amit Kippur. This episode was produced by Megan Palmer with original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks and see you next [00:56:30] time.