087 Simply the Best transcript (Tina Turner)

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Amit: [00:00:00] This is famous and gravy biographies from a different point of view. Now the opening quiz to reveal today's dead celebrity.

Michael: This person died 2023, age 83. In 2013, after demonstrating a sufficient proficiency in German, she became a citizen of Switzerland.

Friend: No idea Dr. Ruth. Okay,

Michael: not Dr. Ruth. In 1987, she appeared in a.

Pepsi commercial [00:00:30] alongside David Bowie. It's not

Friend: the

Michael: Queen, it's, is it the queen of it's? It's not the Queen. Grace Jones,

Archival: but no, she's still alive.

Michael: Grace Jones is luckily still with us, but green cast. Alright. She is credited with helping Mick Jagger learn to dance.

Friend: Um. Are Aretha Franklin,

Michael: not Aretha Franklin.

Good guess. Ginger Rogers, not Ginger Rogers. She struggled to build a solo career. [00:01:00] Appearing in Ill-conceived Cabaret acts before signing with Roger Davies, the manager of Olivia Newton John. In 1979,

Friend: oh my gosh, this is gonna be embarrassing 'cause it's gonna be someone really obvious.

Michael: Her first marriage provided much of the material for the 1993 film.

What's love got to do with it? With Angela Bassett?

Archival: Oh, for God's sake. Okay. Tina Turner.

Friend: Tina Turner. Oh,

Michael: today's dead celebrity is Tina Turner.

Archival: I'm not [00:01:30] threatened because I find myself attractive. I'm healthy and I'm talented. I can stand with anyone no matter the color and no matter the power, and that's what you need for performance.

So how I value myself is that I am blessed and fortunate to be attractive. Now, I didn't say I was beautiful. I. I said, I'm attractive. I know how to be attractive, and I'm talented and I don't try to be anybody else. And people accept me for that, and I win with that. You'll [00:02:00] never lose when you have that security there.

Michael: Welcome to Famous and Gravy. I'm Michael Osborne. And I'm Amit Kapur. And on this show we choose a famous figure who died in the 21st century and present a new narrative. Most biographies focus on legacies and accomplishments, but we are interested in something a little different. What didn't we know?

What could we not see clearly? And what does a celebrity's life story teach us [00:02:30] about ourselves today? Tina Turner died 2023, age 83, category one, grading the first line of their obituary. Tina Turner, the earth shaking singer, whose rasping vocals, sexual magnetism and explosive energy made her an unforgettable live performer and one of the most successful recording artists of all time, died on Wednesday at our home in cos, [00:03:00] knocked Switzerland near Zurich.

She was 83. Yes. I looked out how to, you did well. You did well in the pronunciation. Who's knocked? Who's knocked? Your reaction? Kind of love it. Really?

Amit: Yeah. Okay. Interesting. Okay. Earth shaking, explosive. I mean, they said explosive energy. Yeah, unforgettable. Like Tina is all energy.

Michael: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And I

Amit: think they.

Captured that in the vocabulary. I agree. And that's what got me excited about it.

Michael: Yeah. And it, it escalates. Right. Who's rasping vocals, sexual [00:03:30] magnetism, explosive energy. You know, it gets better and better as the sentence goes on. Yeah. It's like a movie

Amit: trailer like that. That deep voice getting you ready.

Michael: Totally. Yeah. Rasping vocals. That's a really good description of her vocal energy. Yeah.

Sexual magnetism I want to come back to, but I love that that's in there. As do I? Yeah, as do I. And explosive energy. There is something explosive [00:04:00] about her. That's a great word to describe. Tina Turner's stage

Amit: presence. Yeah, totally. It's, I, I was watching a clip, obviously getting ready for the show the other day when I was wet, my parents' house and Tina was sweating, but it was during a softer song.

My mom's like, my God, she sweats so much. Yeah. I was like, yeah. 'cause she's just dancing her ass off for so long.

Michael: Yeah. She's all energy. There's such like strength and empowerment really throughout her career. Like she is such a front man or front woman, you know, whatever. Yeah. Like she's so like. Perfect.

At the front of the [00:04:30] stage? Yes. Okay. Let me tell you what I wrote down before reading this. I was curious, one, will they use the word fierce? That was a word that I kind of expected. I'm, I'm glad it's not here, but I do think that it's a really available word. There's a fierceness about tuna turner. I think these other words are better or just as good, but then the bigger question was, what are they gonna mention?

Ike, were they gonna mention the first marriage? So glad they didn't. I am too. But did you think about this?

Amit: I did. And I was [00:05:00] worried actually in reading it. I was like, I don't, I hope they don't. I hope they don't, and I'm glad they

Michael: didn't. So, walk me through that. Why? Why? Just to play out that argument. I think I'm glad too, but I'm still sort of debating into my mind whether or not I kind of was.

Even looking for a nod to it, whose, you know, life story was an inspiration maybe, or whose life story raised awareness around an issue that had been hiding in the shadows. It would've taken a lot of words to kind of shoehorn that in, but it's also in my mind. Uh, what, [00:05:30] what I was struggling with around this is it does feel like it is such a strong part of the narrative of who Tina Turner is.

Right. And is it one negligent or two chicken shit to not include it or to not make reference to it in the first line?

Amit: That exact opposite. It's deferential,

Michael: I think, but, but it, but it's deferential. The way to think about this. I mean, I you, this has come up a lot on the show. It's just not how people want their story to be told.

It's what we know them for. Yes. And I do [00:06:00] think that her solo career and her star power ultimately overshadows, you know, the problematic history of the first half of her public life.

Amit: Correct. But not totally. But it's also this, I would look at it maybe this way. It wasn't her doing right, right? Like she, she was a victim to it.

Yeah. If she was, if she was embroiled in a scandal in which she initiated, interesting. Then perhaps, but she was a victim and I don't think victim hood belongs in first line.

Michael: I think that's probably right. [00:06:30] But the decision, however she got there, and we'll get into this as we go on. The decision to go public with your story is of her agency and of her choosing.

It was huge in the way that it, in how we talk about domestic abuse. Totally. I mean, I, I went down a little bit of a rabbit hole in terms of understanding the history of domestic abuse awareness. When Tina Turner leaves Ike in the mid seventies, there's no such thing as like battered woman shelter, right?

Yeah. There's nowhere to go. This is, you know, in the middle of second wave feminism in the [00:07:00] 1970s, there's still a lot. Hidden behind closed doors and there's nobody I can think of whose story brought more awareness, you know, or who is more symbolic of, you know, domestic abuse, survival.

Amit: So are you, are you saying you, you think it belongs in?

Michael: No, I just see the case for it. I was kind of looking for a nod to it. And I'll say this, I mean, I really try to not evaluate the whole obituary 'cause we're just interested in the first line. Yes. The way the whole obituary treats it. I was a [00:07:30] little dissatisfied actually, but I do think that how much attention and.

To give that part of her and her story kind of is a question that I think mainstream media struggled with for decades. Right. And we're,

Amit: that's gonna unfold a lot over the Yeah. Over the rest of this episode.

Michael: I like you. I'm glad it's not in there. Yeah. You know, but I also think just about everybody reading this first line of the obituary, it was like, huh, it's not in there.

I sign off on the decision. Ultimately, I think I'm on board with it because the [00:08:00] heights she reached in her solo career really do

Amit: dwarf the what, what I, not only do I sign off, I, I give it gratitude. It may, it may not honor journalistic neutrality, but I'm grateful for it. So Well, that's an emotional reaction.

I know. Okay. Alright. I just, I, that's what's what I do. I know, I know. Is there any other kind? Right. So you, you wanted to go back to sexual magnetism?

Michael: Yeah, but I actually might wanna save that for later categories.

Amit: Okay. So you don't wanna talk about it right here? In terms of inclusion in the obituary, is there anything more that you wanna [00:08:30] say about it?

Michael: No. In fact, not only do I like it, I like its placement in the sentence. I like it between rasping vocals and explosive energy that we start with the voice and then we go like to the stage and the performance, right? Like so part of upping the stakes as this sentence goes on. I think it's. Outstanding. And I think it's a hundred percent accurate.

Yeah.

Amit: Alright.

Michael: Omissions,

Amit: any problems other than talk about other than one we talked about? So I always dwell that I like to see a proper no, and I want to hear not the movie what, what LOV got to do with it, but perhaps the [00:09:00] song or private dancer, right? Or anything, however. I'm okay without a ear and I, I can't quite explain why, but I think all of the illusions they made to earthshaking, rasping vocals, explosive energy, just bring about the images of the song to anyone familiar with her that is reading this obituary?

Yeah. That I, I don't think it's necessary because I think they painted the portrait to where you're like watching the video or, or listening to the song. They just did such a good job with words that they didn't need to make the [00:09:30] specific references.

Michael: I. Agree with that. And I think I'm actually gonna have more to say on this as we get into the next category, because they don't anchor her in any music genre.

And I think that's interesting. They don't peg her as a pop star, rock and roll, r and b, whatever. They just say, you know, singer recording artist.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: Yeah. And, and, and I actually think that is right on the money omission in a way. Like to have done that would have been to shoehorn her into a genre that I'm not sure she [00:10:00] belongs in.

Yeah. Okay, scorecards. I'm gonna go nine. Yeah. Yeah. I really like it. I, I'm still, any opening of the door to the domestic abuse and the Ike story would have kind of left a sour taste in my mouth. But as you said earlier, in terms of journalistic integrity, it, there is a little bit of a demerit there in my mind.

Yeah. And you're a jerk, so, and I'm a jerk. Yeah. It's not, it's not a 10

Amit: out of 10 quite, but everything else about this I love, uh, well, I'm, I'm. Hold your [00:10:30] words sir. Alright. Uh, I'm giving it a 10 out 10. Alright then. I think I've only dished out a couple of those. Yeah. Uh, and you are a choice about this. I look it, this is as near perfect a Michelin star experience.

This is a Michelin star. It is as near perfect as we've come across. Yeah. So it's a Tina Turner 10.

Michael: Next category, category two. Five things I love about you here, Ahman and I develop a list of five things that offer a different angle on who this person was and how they lived.

Amit: You, you're ready? I can. Ready?

You're ready. You're ready. I've got an explosive

Michael: sexual [00:11:00] magnetism energy over here, so go. Go. First. Queen of rock. Okay. Okay. Queen of Rock. This is a, a label that gets attached to her a lot. Here's why I wanna lead with this. I've got a few reasons here. One is that this is where I had the biggest change of perception around Tina Turner.

In my mind, she was a pop star and I think that's 'cause I came of age in the eighties. When, what's love got to do with it and private dancer and better be good to me. And all those eighties pop songs [00:11:30] were hitting and this was the beginning in the apex of her comeback, right? Yeah. I didn't think of her as a rock and roll star in the strict sense.

Of the word or of the term rock and roll, and I now do, when it comes to her music, I like some of the pop hits, but if they're on the radio, I may or may not leave them on. However, the covers of rock and roll songs are electric to me. Yeah. I love them. I mean, obviously Proud Mary's a big one, which he also did [00:12:00] solo later too, right?

Yeah, yeah. Yeah. But also I saw a performance of Help. The Beatles song, I saw her performing Honky Tonk Women with the Stones True Classic Rock songs. All right. So when I read her biographies and I ended up reading both of them, there's a lot of rock and roll stars who are absolutely critical to her early success and her comeback.

I and Tina toured with the Stones in the sixties.

Amit: Yes,

Michael: Tina was the one who was like, we should really cover this Credence Clearwater song. You know, proud Mary. She's in the [00:12:30] WHO Opera. Right. Tommy. Tommy, thank you. Uh, as the acid Queen Bowie plays an enormous role in her comeback. Uh, he, it, uh, do you know this story?

Yeah. The, the dinner in? Yeah, yeah. Yeah. There's the dinner in New York when he's, you know, promoting Let's Dance and the, you know, record execs are like, how can we wine and dine? He was like, I wanna see my favorite singer, Tina Turner. And he takes like Keith Richards and Ron Wood from The Stones, and

Amit: he takes 63 people, I believe,

Michael: to that show.

Right. And they're like. Holy cow. [00:13:00] Who? You know Tina Turner, my God. And then they stay up all night drinking and partying. Yeah. Awesome. Picture of Bowie, Keith Richards and Tina passing a bottle of Jack around at around a piano. I mean like something that I think is really worth pointing out about all these rock stars I.

All Brits, it's British invasion and their descendants. Right? It's the Stones, it's the Beatles. It's who, you know. They cover a Zeppelin song later, you know, Bowie, Brad Stewart. I mean the, the Brits recognize her as a rock and roll star. Yes. [00:13:30] Right?

Amit: And e even the fans later, she was bigger in Europe than she was in the us.

A hundred

Michael: percent. You know, her success in Europe was critical for sustaining her career. Alright. I got one more thing to say on this. Okay. Wes Anderson, the director, yeah. Gave an interview years ago that what he said really stuck in my mind. He said the reason he likes to use the British invasion music in his movies like Rushmore and Tendon bombs and so forth, is that there's something about adolescent angst and the awkwardness of this sexual energy that comes when [00:14:00] the hormones come online.

Ah-huh? Right. Like I now see. Tina Turner through that filter. Yes. Right. I see. And that's the sexual magnetism thing that's in the first line of her obituary. She totally is rock and roll. Yeah. In every sense of the word and like the truest sense of the word. And she even talks about this, she's like, I'm mistaken for r and b and as a pop singer.

And even though she had commercial success with the pop songs, I think she, she needs to be understood as a rock and roll star.

Archival: In America, radio programmers [00:14:30] don't program you. You as black person rock and roll your r and b because of your color. I had to prove it over the years, you know, at this is the part coming in of like being a woman and being black.

I've been rock and roll all my life. I have stood with the rock and roll guys and still they say. They, the radio programmer said, no, we cannot program her. She's RB because she's black. Because I'm black. You have to go crossover RB before you can make rock and roll. But I reversed it on them. My [00:15:00] audience, the people I.

Proclaimed me rock and roll.

Amit: So that's why you love it, is your own misunderstanding versus what she actually is.

Michael: Exactly. Okay. Exactly. I can now feel like I can go into a bar and get it in somebody's face and like, you don't like Tina Turner, then you don't understand Rock and roll, sir. This is, you know, these, this is how you go into bars?

Uh, uh, sometimes, yeah. Okay. I'm, I'm looking to pick an argument. I haven't been to one with you in, in a day, so I don't know. Well, it. These are specific kinds of bars, but yes. But, okay, lemme throw [00:15:30] this back to you. Did you think of her as rock and roll? Uh, like before you got into the research, would you have said she's a rockstar?

Not a no, no. I would've put

Amit: her in that category of Madonna, Michael Jackson.

Michael: Totally. Yes. All the rest. Yes. Totally. Yeah. And I think it's because of MTV. I also think that is where she found commercial success. But she even says, yeah, she doesn't like the song. Yeah. Or didn't like the song. What's Love got

Amit: to do with it?

Correct. But the, it seems like the absence of guitar playing somehow. Preclude you from being rock.

Michael: Yeah. And,

Amit: but it doesn't, it doesn't matter. Well, I also think there's a race

Michael: thing there [00:16:00] too.

Amit: Yeah. Yeah. Could be. But I, I think there is a bias that without guitars then, you're not rock. But if you have rasping vocals, that is rock.

Michael: Yes. And I, I love that about her. She really won me over. I sometimes this happens in our episodes where I'm like, I don't know how I feel about Tina Turner. And the more I got into not just her story, but her art, the more in I found myself. And it's, it's the stuff you don't know about. So that's my number

Amit: one.

All right, let's keep it moving. Alright, uh, number two, I'm calling this age is just a number. It was 1984 when she kind [00:16:30] of reemerged on the scene after separating from Ike in that life. And she came out with private dancer, which included what's love got to do with it and became a explosive. Hit Yes.

Right. 44 years old as a woman and as a, as a black woman on top of that. Never, ever been done before. Yeah, right. Nobody's getting a fresh start at that time. That was just the beginning. Okay, so at age 45 is when she stars in Mad Max. At age 48, she sets the record four at the [00:17:00] time, 180,000 people for a paid performance in Sao Paulo for a solo artist.

Yeah. Yes. At age 57, she was named by Hayes, the underwear brand. On their survey, their sexy leg survey? Yeah. At age. She won it initially at age 57 and then again at age 71, beating out Beyonce and Jennifer Aniston. This was in 2011, I believe. In 73. She was on the cover of German Vogue, becoming the oldest person to ever be on the cover of Vogue at age [00:17:30] 73, not 1973.

Yes. Um, she's a Vogue cover girl. Yeah. Beating out Meryl Streep. Who was the previous oldest? Yeah, so this, this is a woman that age is just number and she gets better and hotter and more talented like in middle age and beyond. You know how much I love those stories? Yeah. Because it's just, I, I think what we all need is optimism.

Yes, youth is great and it's fun and it's innocent, but there is so much opportunity. The older you get, there's so much more you. Can do and so [00:18:00] much more fun you can have and impact. And I love when she restarted and that it kept climbing for a while. It really

Michael: looks like it's coming from the inside out, like it's an inner resource of energy.

Yep. Which is not a bad segue to my number three. Okay. All right. This is in the movie and this gets brought up a lot, but I love it. Love it, love it. Chanting. Okay. Uh, I can't, how, how do you say it, Ko? Great. That's pretty good, right? Sure. Yeah. Okay. I'm not gonna do it again 'cause I'll probably screw it up.

Yeah. Why do you think I would know [00:18:30] get better? Uh, well, because, uh, I don't know. You meditate.

Amit: Thank you.

Michael: Okay. Okay. I was just trying, I was just race spading

Amit: you,

Michael: but go ahead. I could feel that, I could feel that, um, I'm gonna read something from her. Memoir. Okay. Uh, so she wrote two books I Tina with Kurt Loder of MTV Fame.

Yep. And then many years later, she writes Tina Term My Love Story. So, I mean, this is sort of an apocryphal story right there. There's somebody who's playing in the band, I think with Ike and Tina, who [00:19:00] introduces her to Buddhism in the early seventies, introduces that chant and she locks in immediately and finds real power and depth to it.

She becomes a practicing Buddhist. Mm-Hmm. And the movie, what's Love got to do with it even begins with a. Some sort of interpretation of Nya Ring Yanko. Yeah. She talks about it all the time and there's a passage in her book that I absolutely loved, and here's. What she had to say. Bear with me. I think this is good.

Chanting. I discovered, removed uncomfortable attitudes from my thoughts. I started thinking differently. [00:19:30] Everything became lighter. I needed a new mindset to deal with my horrible marriage, and my practice, as it's called, was helping me reprogram my brain to move into light, to make the right decisions.

The more I did it, the stronger I felt. Someone once asked me about the relationship between singing and chanting. I explained that chanting is not necessarily like singing a song, rather it's that moment when you find yourself making sounds from within, from your heart, from your spirit. Each person has a song inside.

That is something I learned over [00:20:00] time. You can find the hum inside of you that can give you peace when you are really down. Mama Georgi. My grandmother had hum never a song. She would sit in a rocking chair and just hum and I would listen. There was no real melody, but I know now that it was her way of touching a place deep inside her.

It was the song of her soul. Everyone should try to find the song within.

Archival: I'm,[00:20:30]

and if you do it long enough, you become less stressed. But it's not magic. It's not. It's the practice. Practice itself is more mystic, but not magic. But I tell you, when you're in trouble and you really seek help, you don't get it. You test it and you think, my goodness, something works here.

Michael: I, as you know, have been doing morning yoga.

Yes. And it ends with m you know. Yeah. I have now gotten to a place where I really look forward to m Yeah. It's vibrational

Amit: [00:21:00] healing.

Michael: Yeah. But I, I feel corny around it. Right. You know? Yeah. You've

Amit: offended me and 1.49, nine, 9 billion of my brothers and sisters,

Michael: and to them I apologize. And to them I am ready to take action and make amends.

We

Amit: embrace you and we love you.

Michael: Well, it starts with this

Amit: podcast. Okay.

Michael: Do

Amit: you chant. I do m at the end of my meditations. Yeah. Do you? Yeah. Do you find a power in it that's strong? I don't know that I find a power in it, but I find I find comfort in it.

Michael: Yeah. Comfort. Yeah. I mean, Tina Turner finds this [00:21:30] in the depths of hell that is her marriage.

Yes. But I love this stuff about the song inside and connecting with your soul. You know, I actually recently made a list that I've just been keeping on my phone of things that are good for my soul. It includes. Cold plunges and exercise and spending time with kids. Chanting is now on there and looking for a vibrational energy and trying to get in touch with the song within.

And I love that this woman who is a, a plus plus singer with rasping vocals is like, [00:22:00] everybody has this inside and you need to find it. And if you find it, you find power within it. And my story speaks to that because this is the beginning of her turning point in terms of finding her own power. Yep. I know it's in the movie.

I know it's been talked about, but I'm not sure it's emphasized enough and I love her pathway there, so, okay. That's my thing. Number three.

Amit: Yeah. So my number four is she didn't see the movie. Ah, yeah. She, she didn't see what's love got to do with it. Yeah. And in a summary, why I love this is self-control.

Right. The reason she didn't see it, because if I, if someone makes a movie about me, like even [00:22:30] if it does bring up. You know, horrible things. I, I don't know that I have self-control to, to not at least peek at it, you know? Yeah. I

Michael: wanna, I wanna know how my story's been spun and probably remembered that movie I is arguably the lasting impression.

Oh, totally. Right. Yeah. For a lot, a lot of people. A lot of people I think that like, 'cause and it's great. And the performances are incredible. Yeah. But it's also flawed up and down

Amit: by the way. It's flawed. So that, that's the other thing is she wants her own narrative, right? Yeah. It's gonna be out there, it, it's gonna portray a certain story, it's gonna [00:23:00] exaggerate certain parts, but it is also gonna be empowering to other people in terms of like, don't put up with this shit.

Yes. You know? And so for that, it's positive, but she didn't want to be reminded of it. Yeah. Right. And that's her, right? Like no matter how huge it is or matter that she's a subject matter, she's got self-control and she has power over her own narrative. She's asked about Ike all the time. Yes, we're gonna, it's, it's inevitable that it's gonna keep coming up throughout this episode.

I So

Michael: as if there's something more to be said,

Amit: right? Yeah, exactly. And so that's perfect what you just said. 'cause she [00:23:30] said, you know, when the movie came out and she goes. The story was written so I no longer had to deal with it. And the story was written, meaning the book I, Tina, that she wrote. Yeah.

Detailed her abuse. Yeah. This is done. I no longer have to deal with it. The world can have it. Hopefully it saves lives or improves lives, but I don't have to see it.

Michael: I like how you link that with self-control too. Yeah. I, I think a lot of people would have a hard time staying out of it no matter how good or bad.

Especially if everybody's saying such a

Amit: great movie. Yeah. It's like the little pep talk you gave me a few [00:24:00] weeks ago when you're like, stop reading the troll comments. Yeah. You know, 'cause we, we, you get some, you know Yeah, sure. When you have a podcast.

Michael: Yeah. It's just how it is. Okay. Uh, all I'm gonna end with something I've been saving a little bit.

I love her fashion. Okay. I love her fashion. I love, love her material. A lot of

Amit: emasculating of Michael Osborne coming out already. I'm

Michael: good with it. So I have a friend, John W, who I've had a lot of conversations with in the Lean Lead up to this episode. He is a fan of the show. After I told him we were doing a Tina Turner episode.

Why did you say

Amit: John W? So he gets a [00:24:30] special shout out rather than just, I have a friend Joe, he knows

Michael: who he is. I, I have a friend, John, I'll back up. I have a friend John. I like it. He knows who he is. I like it. His eyes lit up when I said we were doing a Tina Turner episode, he wanted to be kind of involved.

One thing he said when we did the Angela Lansbury episode, he is like, I really liked it. You guys needed a gay. So I was like, okay. Help me understand Tina as a, as a gay icon. And so we had a lot of conversations about this. She is just fricking fashionable. You look at like the, put it on mute and watch what's love got to [00:25:00] do with it and her strutting with the leather skirt.

And you found the video? Yeah, the video. Okay. This the leather skirt and the jean jacket and the eighties hair. Yeah. Apparently if you're gonna go in drag. Tina Turner is a good choice to start with, but it's more than that. It is also, this will come up later in her marriage to Irwin, her second husband.

She really likes stuff. She likes shopping. The main tension in their marriage is Irwin is German. He's sparse and he doesn't want a bunch of stuff in the apartment, and Tina can't help herself. And in every house she's like, [00:25:30] hell, Ben on. Decorating, but it's total like woman's touch stuff. This is true with her wigs.

This is true with her outfits. This is true with everything about her and I, I love it. I love her love. I love her sense of fashion, like I love somebody. That sounds, sounds like fashion

Amit: and style. Yeah. Because you're talking about

Michael: furnishings and

Amit: stuff as

Michael: well. I think that's right. And this is obviously a major deficit in my life.

And not my wife, but personally, yeah, like we've left in my own devices. I can't choose a pair of khaki shorts to wear, but this, this T-shirt you're wearing is [00:26:00] just remarkable. This is about as fashionable as I get. Okay. So I love fashion and style. I think that's better. Okay. And I love that. You love it.

Okay. Okay, recap. A recap. All right. Number one I said. Queen of Rock number two. I said age is just a number. I'd love it when that one comes up. Number three, inner music. Number four, you said didn't see the movie. Yep, and number five I went fashion and style. Okay. Hell yeah. All right, let's move on. Category three, one love.

In this category, we each choose one word or phrase that characterizes [00:26:30] their loving relationships. Before we select our word or phrase, though, we review the family life data. I'll go through this quickly. She was married to Ike from 1962 to 1978 is when the divorce was finalized. She was about 22 or 23 when they got married to 38, 39.

When they divorced. There are four kids, all boys. Two were Ikes from a previous relationship. One was Tina's from a previous relationship. They had one child together all the. Boys were very close in age and they were all raised in one family

Amit: and [00:27:00] raised by Tina after the separation. Very much. Very much,

Michael: yes.

But Tina, one of her big regrets is I was on the road a lot. I think she was a, an active and involved mother. She talks about in interview with Mike Wallace, like actually going to PTA and stuff. But that's the thing about Ike and Tina is a lot of the money came from touring. They're on the road all the time.

Yeah. Alright, second marriage. Irwin Bach, 2013 to 2023. Tina was 73 when they actually got married. Uh, they were together until her death. He [00:27:30] is 16 years younger than her. They actually started dating though in 1986 and he proposed in 1989 and also really worth noting the man gave her a kidney. Yes. Her health problems begin to mount shortly after they finally do get married.

One of them was kidney failure. Yeah. And it turned out to be a suitable donor. And she's like, Irwin, don't do this. I am, you know, I'm older than you and I'm ready and I'm not afraid. And Irwin said, you're the only woman for me, and I'll take whatever I can get. You can have one of my [00:28:00] kidneys. It's,

Amit: that's so sweet.

Yeah, it's incredible

Michael: actually. Their relationship is so. Fricking cute. It's ridiculous. Yes.

Amit: Okay. And just to emphasize what you said, they were together for 27 years before they married, correct? Right. So before she, the died the entire second half

Michael: of her life. Yes. Or and certainly her adult

Amit: life. Yeah.

Michael: And she describes it as love at first sight actually.

Yeah. She like was dating a little bit, but she saw him was like, holy cow. And came onto him. I mean, the, the whole like love story, and this is really detailed in our [00:28:30] autobiography, is moving in genuine and incredible.

Archival: Also, he was another kind of handsome, he was an unusual looking man, great eyes. She shared with us that you'd asked to marry when she turned 15.

Twice. Yes. Yeah, yeah. You know, I think when a woman turns 50, she should have a commitment from her partner. Yeah. And that's why I, uh, proposed and, and asked the question wrong. What'd you say? Well, I said, uh, will you marry, will you marry with [00:29:00] me?

Michael: I'm gonna pause 'cause I really agonized over my one word or phrase.

I'd like to hear yours

Amit: first. Okay. My phrase, it's not a word, is what's Ike got to do with it? I mean, it was, it's the story that's told over and over again. She was nearly a child when it started. She saw him as an older brother at first. Certain series of events and power dynamics and all kind of made it a romantic relationship.

Michael: But it did start off platonic. Yeah. Yeah.

Amit: That, that became a

Michael: marriage and a horribly

Amit: abusive

Michael: marriage. Yes. Right. [00:29:30] Um, that got worse and worse, especially as his cocaine addiction took off and as his frustrations. I mean, awful.

Amit: Yeah. And she says, you know, later on she just says he, he was an ill man. Yeah. He was very ill.

So that's the story that is told over and over and over again. It is out there. It is. Good for what it does to raise awareness, but it's not the story about her love. So forget it. Forget it in this category, what's I got to do with it? She found love. She, she wrote a a, a song. What's Love [00:30:00] Got to Do with it?

And 'cause she was like, it doesn't have much to do with anything. Right. Because that's a song that's just about physical attraction. I don't think she wrote

Michael: it, but it became associated with her.

Amit: I mean, she obviously popular. Yeah. So there's, there's a lot of dismissal of love. Out there. Yeah. And she, she feel like she didn't have it before Irwin.

Right? She didn't, her childhood was really hard. Yeah. Her mom's a real problematic figure too, actually. Well, due to the dad being problematic. Yeah, because I think he was abusive and she ran away, or she moved to St. Louis, Tina and her sisters went to live with the [00:30:30] grandparents and then eventually went to live with the mom in St.

Louis is when she got started with the e Turner review. Right, right. It was rough all along and she

Michael: had not felt love. I mean, I, so the, the way I read it in, in the autobiography, she does single out her mom. Yeah. They, it it improved. Yeah. The relationship definitely

Amit: improved.

Michael: It did, but it did sound like her mom didn't quite know how to love, I mean, anyway, continue.

So all, all I wanna say is what's Ike, what's Ike got to do with it? I like it. That's not her love story. Okay. I'm gonna add to that and I hope this is the [00:31:00] right phrase. I don't know. Went with lived expertise. Okay, so this is a diversion, but it's been on my mind. As you know, I've actually been doing a lot of work in the child welfare space and a term you hear all the time is lived experience.

Okay? And people who. Have quote unquote lived experience. I hear them talk a lot about how problematic that term is in part 'cause it's kind of a euphemism for, you've been through some trauma, right? Yeah. And sometimes you hear people say, [00:31:30] we should reframe this as lived expertise because I. We're, we're actually experts in the room, and if you want to try and change a system or an institution, you need our expertise.

I think that there's a journey with Tina Turner that really does, you know, build on what's Ike got to do with it. Where she, I. One has to escape 'em, but also I think has to find peace with, I love myself and I have self-worth and she finds [00:32:00] self-worth, but then wonders, you know, will I ever have another relationship?

And then has a love at first sight experience with Irwin where she discovers she's incredibly capable of giving and receiving love. And I think that there's something really important to be learned from the fact that she was. Able to have a very loving and healthy marriage long after the marriage with Ike, that actually you could play this out in a different direction, that she never finds anybody else.

Right. But I think she finds [00:32:30] something inside her that makes her able to give and receive love. She becomes an expert. Her story is not just about surviving domestic abuse, it's also learning how to grow towards health. It's absolutely the upward staircase, correct. There's a moment. I wanna draw quick attention to, and then I want to hear your reaction to this idea.

Mike Wallace, when he interviews her for 60 minutes in 1997, they're talking about, yeah, I watched that. Did you? Yeah. Mm-Hmm. There's a moment where he is like, you must be a handful. And she goes, no, no, not really. You know, I think I'm actually quite good in our marriage. [00:33:00] In her book, she talks about she and Erwin go on long road trips and it's in the car that they sort it all out, that they talk about their marriage and where are we?

And I think this is such a sign of a, frankly, healthy marriage and it's something Allison and I do that's almost a ritual. It's one of my favorite things to do whenever she and I need to have like a real conversation. The fact that Tina Turner's doing that with Irwin tells me a lot or I see a lot in that.

So lived expertise. Okay, good. [00:33:30] Category four, category four, net worth. Ah, this is the fun one. I cannot wait for this in this category. We write down our numbers ahead of time and then we will look up the net worth number in real time, the host. And whether it's ome or me closest to the actual number, we'll explain their reasoning.

And finally, we will place this person on the famous eng gravy net worth leaderboard. Okay. Ahmed Kaur wrote down 235 million.

Amit: Wow. Okay. Okay. Let's see what Michael Osborne wrote down. 120 [00:34:00] million. The final net

Michael: worth for Tina Turner, 250 million. Yes. Nicely done sir. Wow. Yeah.

Amit: Wow.

Michael: Okay. Okay. I'll,

Amit: I'll tell you where I arrived.

Yeah. Okay. I know you put some thought into this. We look at her contemporaries that we've done episodes on. Oh, so you went with comps here? I should have done that. Uh, David Bowie 230 million. Wow. George Michael, 200 million. Okay. Okay. Prince 165 million.

Michael: Yeah.

Amit: Okay. So George, George, [00:34:30] Michael, and Prince both died pretty young, so less time for accumulation and so forth.

Yes. Bowie, Bowie died pretty young actually, but 69

Michael: or something I think.

Amit: Yeah. Yeah. But he had a lot of money and, and he also lived lavishly for, for quite a while. I, I agree. Okay. So, so. Tina, you know, one of the highest grossing performers of all time. She also played the endorsement game a lot more than these other people did.

So I talked about Hanes earlier. For that alone, she was paid $20 million. She [00:35:00] also did converse. She did Plymouth. Cars. Ooh, she did Pepsi, A commercial that was with Bowie. She, she took that opportunity. And you always hear about someone like Michael Jordan. You know, he get certain amount of money from playing basketball, but it was Nike and Gatorade and also Hayes, strangely, uh, that were also like bigger parts of his fortune.

Yeah. Uh, and so I kind of saw that in Tina and I, I looked at these other numbers of comps and I, I saw a woman that, although she literally lived on food stamps, I was gonna say [00:35:30] after like in 1970. Seven a year after the divorce from Ike. 'cause she got nothing monetarily. She got certain rights. Yeah, but nothing monetarily.

Yeah. She gave up

Michael: everything she said. I mean, this is the, this is a famous story. She kept her name and that's it. Yeah. She said, I Ike gets all the royalties for any music. I'm done. I just want a clean break. Yep. I mean, against the advice of her divorce lawyer. Correct. And so

Amit: this fortune was all built then she worked her.

Ass off. Amen. You know, and in concerts and shows and appearances. She did [00:36:00] very small ones just to get her name back up. She was doing the freaking Brady Bunch Hour initially in like the late seventies. Yeah. Hollywood Squares. It was anything Ca, Vegas Cabaret Act. I mean, she was scrapping. She's so hardworking in putting out videos, in putting out great albums and putting out energetic concerts.

It is. Like what we see Taylor Swift do today. She, she worked for it and she took these endorsements. She did it in my mind without horribly selling out. And so that was my logic to the fortune. I love it. So, so here's the good news. 250 puts her in a tie for [00:36:30] second place with Kenny Rogers. Wow. However I should couch this.

Is that number one is Ross Perot? Yeah. Who had 4 billion. We're never So, if, if we remove the outlier Yeah. She's an, she's a tie for number one. Wow. And who we've done.

Archival: Wow.

Amit: Category five, little

Michael: Lebowski, urban achievers.

Archival: They're the little Lebowski, urban achievers. Shit. Yeah. The achievers, yes. And proud. We are of all of them

Michael: in this category, we choose a trophy, an award, a cameo, an impersonation, or any other form of a hat tip that we want to bring into the conversation.[00:37:00]

You do not have to know this person for this, or you might have forgotten about it. You go first. All right. So. World Records. I am not going with the Rio Concert for 186,000 tickets sold, even though that was a Guinness Book of World records for a time. I'm also not going with the number of tickets sold on her Farewell tour in Europe, 3 million tickets instead, I am going, this is a total hat tip for me.

The nut bush line dance. Are you familiar with the nut Bush line dance? I know she's [00:37:30] from Nut Bush,

Amit: Tennessee. That is

Michael: all I know. And there's a great song that she wrote when it was still I Cantina review called Nut Bush Sydnee Limits. Okay, and so this, this is a total Wikipedia rabbit hole. Bear with me.

The Nut Bush is a line dance performed to I Cantinas Song Nut Bush City Limits the Dance, which emerged in the 1970s. Disco era is particularly popular in Australia where it has been taught in schools. Hang on to that idea for a minute. The dance is generally performed by a group of people of [00:38:00] all genders and ages at a social function.

Schools, weddings, community events, the steps are fairly simple, such that one who does not know them can generally pick them up by watching other dancers. The origins of the nut bush are elusive. Despite the wide popularity of the dance, again, especially in Australia, Tina Turner herself never performed it to the song.

Although there is a clip on the share show where it looks like actually Tina and the Ikes are doing something that is classic to the line dance. All right, the world record in 2015. [00:38:30] Dancers in the Victorian town of Horsham set the first Guinness World record for the number of people doing it with 254 dancers that was then topped in October, 2017 with 522.

And then in 2018 across Australia, Podunk towns are trying to one up themselves with how many people they can get to do the nut bush line dance. And there is fabulous clips on YouTube and TikTok all about this.

Archival: Campers at a popular desert festival in Birdsville and Queensland have broken their [00:39:00] own record.

More than five and a half thousand people dance to Nut Bush City limits at the Big Red Bash in the Simpson Desert. It's the largest group dancing to the hit song in one place, breaking the previous world record of just over 4,000, hundreds of onlookers, watched as people. Dressed in their best. Tina Turner outfits, a tribute concert to the Late Star, took place as well featuring top Australian artists.

Michael: The current record, again, was broken, apparently at [00:39:30] Big Red Bash on July 6th, 2023 with 5,838 line dancers. Yeah. So you ask anybody in Australia, what dance did you learn? Apparently this was integrated into the curriculum in the seventies and has been with Australia ever since. Here's why I love it. Nut Bush, Tennessee, where Tina Turner is from, is a barely incorporated town.

I really like that nut bush. That feels like a real Australian word. Yeah, right. But. It [00:40:00] actually gets back to the music inside idea. We should learn to dance at a young age and line dancing while very corny, like you can watch it and follow along pretty easily and learn it pretty easily, and I love that there is a whole.

Continent now obsessed with perfecting the nut bush line dance. So that's my little Nebraska urban achiever. That is phenomenal. I thought you'd like that.

Amit: Yes. Uh, I should say her school in Nut Bush has been preserved in the Delta Heritage Museum. Yeah. She, I won't go into length about it here, but we can, we can link to it in the show notes.

Michael: All right. [00:40:30] Uh, your little broski,

Amit: uh, I, I had a lot to choose from. Right. So there's the obvious Mad Max, which was her big cinematic debut. She had a really interesting one in Ally McBeal. Where I landed was the Last Action Hero. Oh, is she in that? Are you familiar with the movie? You know, I've actually never seen that one.

Oh, I actually, I mean, it's, it doesn't get great reviews. I actually really like it. I think it's very clever and kind of a Charlie Kaufman type of way. Yeah, I think your son would like it actually. Yeah. It, it's kind of, it's very meta. It plays a lot in kind of timespace types of things. So [00:41:00] anyway, the, the premise of it is Arnold Schwartzenegger, it essentially plays himself who is a fictional cop.

But there is, the line gets blurred from reality is that fiction be actually becomes reality. Yeah. So. Tina Turner plays the mayor of Los Angeles in that movie. Really? She only has a couple of lines and really only appears in one scene, but I love that they cast Tina Turner as the mayor of Los Angeles.

Okay. And yeah, the, the reason I love this is. You know, we know her for the leather and [00:41:30] the sexiness Right. And all that, but here she is as a pants suit boss. Yeah. You know, as a public servant. And I, I just love that for her. Yeah. It's just, it's just such good

Michael: casting. Yeah.

Amit: You

Michael: know? And because she is a leader Right.

She's a lioness. Like that's what it means to have that kind of stage presence, right? Yeah. Is to

Amit: lead. Exactly and and unfortunately the scene she's in is 'cause Arnold Schwarzenegger is going rogue and kind of like ignores her. Yeah. So it's just really the casting that I love about it. Yeah. And in one I just didn't even know about it despite probably having seen that [00:42:00] movie two or three times.

I just didn't even notice that was Tina Turner. The other great thing is it came out in 1993, the same year as What's Love Got to do with it? Lax Action Hero did nowhere near as well as What's Love got to do with it. It was a bomb, as I recall. Right. Yeah, it was, or at least disappointing. I think it had.

Some cult. Yeah. Rev, uh, revival later. Totally. But I love that it came out at the same time. And just like I said before, Tina claiming her narrative, Tina being the mayor versus Tina being the victim. I love seeing Tina as the mayor in the

same year. It's beautiful.

Okay, next

Michael: [00:42:30] category, words to live by. In this category, we each choose a quote.

These are either words that came out of this person's mouth or was said about them that resonated in a certain way. I'll go first. I really do think that if, if I were gonna choose something, it's like find the music within you that I was talking about earlier. Mm-Hmm. I like this though. She said people think my life has been tough, but I think it has been a wonderful journey.

The older you get, the more you realize it's not what happens, but how you deal with it. It's pretty simple. It's very [00:43:00] Buddhist. Yeah, I just like that. I mean, reference it a lot. The Serenity Prayer means a lot to me. What can I control? What can I not control, and how can I tell the difference? And this idea of how you deal with what life gives you.

That's where you have agency, that's where you have power. I think there's a lot of wisdom hidden in these words, so I just

Amit: love it. Okay. I like that too. Okay, what do you got? So mine's actually very similar but different. She wrote a book that's not really talked about as much in 2020 called [00:43:30] Happiness Becomes You, A Guide to Changing Your Life For Good.

And this is, you know, this is Tina in Buddhahood. Yeah. Um, and a line from that Buddhahood. Wait, Buddhahood, is that a word? Yeah. Buddha hood's a word, is it? Yeah. Okay. You'll, you'll, you'll attain it. I'm working on it. Okay. Alright, go ahead. So she wrote as German Swiss author, Herman Hessa said, the more we would mature the younger we grow.

What a beautiful sentiment. Okay. So yes, I am attributing her, quoting someone else. But the idea that the more we would mature, [00:44:00] the younger we grow, this goes way back to what my number two thing I love about her. But what does that mean actually freedom. I. More freedom than you realize. You think you have everything as a child, as a teen in your twenties, you have everything before you and ahead of you.

That is not the same as the inner freedom and the tolerance and the understanding. Uh, that's how I'm interpreting it. I like that, and I think that's how, that's what Tina meant.

Michael: Yeah. It's so funny with Buddhist [00:44:30] sayings that come up, oftentimes it feels like variations on a theme, right? Yeah. Um, but I hear something about surrender in there, but I really like how you went to freedom there.

I, I guess I just hadn't put it into. Words or into my head before that, you know, I, I mentioned sort of offhandedly earlier that I've got this note about things that I'm trying to do to connect with my soul, and one of them is spend time with children.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: Part of the experience of being in proximity to the innocence that kids can have.

Are you talking about your own children? You're not just like at playgrounds. [00:45:00] Actually, I like. Hanging out with kids. I think it is good to hang out with kids. It is mostly my kids that I want to hang out with, but Okay. You're also, you're talking friends, kids and Yeah, and, and Nest, fews and nieces and like, this has been one of the, I brought this up before.

I'm sure this has been one of the big transitions in my life. Before I became a father. I did not care for the company of children. I thought kids. Meltdown and they're annoying and I've done a total 180 on that.

Amit: Yeah.

Michael: The company of children is a great thing. I [00:45:30] actually enjoy playful innocence and just watching like consciousness come into to bloom and light I think is a wonderful, beautiful thing.

But it is also a observation of what freedom looks like.

Archival: Yeah.

Michael: So as you say that, I actually totally agree that to grow younger is to grow free. To grow. Mature is to

Amit: grow

Michael: free. But what did Tina, what, what, what is, what's this quote from

Amit: Tina? The more we mature, the younger we grow. That's what I mean. That what you say, you're saying the growing of younger is.

That's what I mean. That's how,

Michael: that's how I read that. [00:46:00] Yep. Okay. Good words. Yeah. All right. Category seven, man in the mirror. This category is fairly simple. Did this person like their reflection? Yes or no? This is not about external beauty necessarily, but rather a question of self-confidence versus self-judgment.

It's a tough one, really.

Amit: I went, yes, in every sense. Really, there's so many times that she has said that, you know, she looks and she sees inadequacy.

Michael: Yeah. But I think that she finds a power within, I mean, it's the [00:46:30] journey we talk about. This is if you could freeze frame, but I think that she discovers power within her.

I think part of the reason she's a gay icon is because she was marginalized and becomes a symbol of empowerment. Yeah. And I think that her attention to style and fashion, which she's. Proud of she, I like to look good. I love the wigs, I love the makeup. I love to, you know, I spend time on this. I didn't even write.

Yes, I wrote yes in all caps, really. I think I'm, I'm a hundred percent loved it. Okay. Loved it.

Amit: [00:47:00] I, you know, so I just saw a lot of, she's proud. She is a proud woman. She definitely is. She definitely,

Michael: oh, she became, she definitely became, but even, I think she actually always was, and. No matter what a fucking monster Ike was, I think that that inner pride and confidence existed within her and had to find an outlet.

Amit: Yeah, so I, I think it's great that you're going a, a capital Yes, with exclamation points. I wanted to, but I just saw these evidence of self. Criticism, even her opening line of the 2019 HBO biography [00:47:30] was, is like, it was a rough life. And then she does actually talk about all these times in like looking at her reflection and like, am I worth loving?

She did not acknowledge as beautiful as she actually was.

Michael: She, she talked to her about herself being attractive, not a beauty or, or something. There was some parsing of words.

Amit: Yes, but I, I refuse to go a No, it's because I see everything that you see in her. And so I'm also gonna go a yes that she liked her reflection in the mirror.

And I grabbed one quote from 1985, I [00:48:00] believe, and she said, why can't someone see the beauty in the person I am? So this is, you know, when she is single, she's post Ike, she's rising. She's saying that she can't experience love, but she knows that she's worthy of it. And she's beautiful. Yeah. Inside and out.

And I saw that as liking herself, knowing her potential. She eventually reached well beyond, unfortunately, I saw too much in order to give the capital Yes. Triple exclamation point. Yeah. But I'm absolutely a yes, and I like yours better than mine. Okay. [00:48:30]

Michael: Okay, great. Well, good. I very rarely win arguments, uh, but I'm glad, I'm glad I'm gonna call this a win.

For me. This counts as a win. And for Tina and for Tina. All right. Category eight coffee cocktail cannabis. This is where we ask which one would we most want to do with our dead celebrity. This may be a question of what kind of drug sounds like the most fun to partake with this person, or another philosophy is that a particular kind of drug might allow access to a part of them.

You're most curious about. I didn't have to think hard. I went cannabis. [00:49:00] Really? Oh yeah. Okay. Oh yeah. Go, go, go, go. I want to get on the wavelength. I wanna find the music within. I want the creativity juices flowing. I want to chant, I wanna sing. I don't need any more truth from her. I don't need her to say anything more about what's on the inside.

I think she has shown everything she can and should. I don't have lingering curiosity about who she was. She's shown. Who she was. If there were one question I'd want to ask, I think it is actually around this lived [00:49:30] expertise idea. How do we own our own story? And you wrote these books where you came very clean about everything that happened, and you're been kind of burdened with that story.

People keep freaking asking about it. Do you have any ideas for where to draw these lines? But I don't think she's the one to ask that question. I think that's a. Commentary on our institutions, on the institution of marriage, and I don't need to have those deep intellectual conversations. So I basically just want to get high.

Okay. And find the music with it. [00:50:00]

Amit: Okay. I like it. Mine's not too dissimilar. Now that you've explained it initially. I thought it was, so I'm going cocktail, very specifically Champagne. Alright. And I wanna dance with Tina ah, in the late eighties. I just wanna have a good old time. Yeah. You know, and, and yeah, totally.

I I just wanna feel that explosive energy. Yeah. I want her to bring out the joy in me that she brought in Mick Jagger. Yeah. And nothing more, no more complicated than that. This woman had it. She is the type that I I don't like dancing. Yeah. [00:50:30] Michael, I'll, I'll do it at weddings and so forth. There's, there's a famous story for me in college.

This is my line

Michael: dancing. So Great. By the way, there's famous story I interrupt you. I wanna hear, uh, from

Amit: me, from college of. Like a, a very attractive girl was like, Hey, do you wanna go dance again? I was like, I, I, I don't dance. And my friends quoted that for, for a few years. Oh no. Yeah. Did you not dance or did you dance badly?

No, no, no. So they were, we were, we were at one bar. Yeah. And they said, oh, we're gonna go to this other club to go dance. And I was like, oh, thanks. I don't dance.

Michael: Oh, okay. Got it. Yes. Got

Amit: it. Got it. So

Michael: [00:51:00] opportunity. We'd like you to go with us. Yeah. I was like, no, instead I don't do that just

Amit: with my three guy friends and we're just gonna go drink light beer off next.

We watch the space for the 19th time. Yes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh uh. Brilliant. Brilliant. Move. Well, you say you need dance lessons from Tina. I don't need the lessons. I'm a pretty decent dancer and I'm more open to it now. I still don't. A private dancer? Yes. Uh. You know, I do it mostly at wedding Small. I, I don't go to clubs, but you know, if there's an occasion at a party Yeah.

Or something, I'll, I'll do a little bit of it, but I think Tina brings that out in you. Yeah. And with dancing is movement, there's release, [00:51:30] there is joy, but there is nothing but that present moment. And I think Tina probably better than anybody else we've at least talked about in this show can bring it out.

So give me and Tina a bottle of champagne, crank up the music, hers or someone else's, and let's just go dance.

Michael: Before we get to the last category, this has been a fricking Tina Turner love fest as well as it should have been. Mm-Hmm. This is not where I started with her. Yeah, me too. Me too. When we chose.

Yeah. It sounds like it. That's what I was gonna ask. That's why I wanted to ask that before we got to the last category. It sounds like you've had a [00:52:00] journey with Tina Turner.

Amit: Yeah. Because I, you know, I, I followed the tragedy story. Yeah. You know, and, and I thought

Michael: that that was like all I needed to know.

Amit: Yeah. And I knew there was a rise from the ashes, but it. Turned I, I realized how important she was in empowerment, energy, magnetism, and really just bringing people into that kind of dancing type moment. Yeah. Well

Michael: said. Okay. Category nine, the Vander Beek named after James Vander Beek, who famously said in varsity blues, I don't [00:52:30] want your life.

In that varsity blue scene, James makes a judgment that he does not want a certain kind of life based on very little information. So here, Ahed and I will form a rebuttal to anyone who is skeptical of how Tina Turner lived and Tina Turner's life.

Amit: So, so the obvious is out there, right? Is the brutality of her early years.

Are we talking about the counter argument here? The counter argument?

Michael: Yeah. Yeah, that that's the obvious. She also. She suffered and I mean, it got so bad that there was a very serious suicide [00:53:00] attempt

Amit: to say

Michael: just how hellish her

Amit: life was. And she suffered several times. Right. She lost a son to suicide. Yeah.

Herself, you know, within a year after getting married. And yes, we've said that she was. Together with him for 27 years prior. But a year after she got married is when she got this like kidney disease, right? Yeah. In, sorry. She suffered a stroke. Yeah. You know, like started, it's all these things.

Michael: There was a kidney, there was kidney failure, a stroke, and

Amit: cancer on top of everything.

Yeah. So there's arguments against the argument four. Yes. What do you think is [00:53:30] the number one?

Michael: I mean, I'm gonna start with the obvious and she came to this. Okay. The reason they keep asking me about my troubled marriage and the domestic abuse is because ultimately I am an inspiration to people. My story is helping raise awareness and is showing people that there's a way out.

The greater I can be, the more successful I can be, the more empowered I can be, the more beautiful I can be, the more hope I can bring. Yeah, [00:54:00] so the legacy is incredible and while it, I think, is uncomfortable because people keep asking about it and it becomes such a primary association with her at the end of the day, that's point number one.

Amit: Yeah. And I, I'm gonna go number two is the piece she found. Yeah. You know, despite the physical illnesses that she faced in later life, you know, she wrote this book in 2020 about how to find happiness. Yeah. Right. She said in 2013. To Oprah, you know that it's nice when you can go and [00:54:30] look back at certain things and laugh, you know?

I don't know exactly to what she was referring to, but she found peace. And you look at her home in Switzerland that she lived, you know, out, out the last part of her life. Yeah. Uh, I mean, it's this, this idyllic house. It's idyllic community. She used to pay for the Christmas lights every year.

Archival: While there's a wonderful, serene, yet dramatic effect, still a work in progress, it has breathtaking views of the French Riviera.

A spectacular pool and all the comfort she needs. Please. Is that your feet? You feel [00:55:00] like you deserve all this? I deserve more.

Amit: It is to me, the emblem of peace. Yeah. Uh, and, and to go from 180,000 people in Rio de Janero, Brazil in 1988, which is a certain kind of high to just finding peace, which is a different kind of high, but she, she got 'em

Michael: both, uh, you know, we haven't talked about this yet.

But I think also a real theme of her life and her journey is forgiveness. When she is asked about Ike in later [00:55:30] years, sometimes she just says, I hope he has hit records. I think he's a talented musician. I found a way to forgive him. Yeah. Which is not to excuse him in any way, shape or form, but she sees him as a sick man.

Yeah. Her soul is too damn good. Yeah.

Amit: Okay, so what do we have for the arguments in our rebuttal to James? Well, I wanna add one more. Oh. She has you appreciating style and she has me appreciating dancing. She can change people, you know, and, and if she can change people and if she, she did that for the two of us.

Just think [00:56:00] of the, not hundreds of thousands, but the millions that she changed inside.

Michael: Okay. Let's summarize then.

Amit: Okay,

Michael: so number one, she became a symbol of empowerment, correct? And, and

Amit: number two, she found peace. And number three, she changed people. You change people. And let me throw in a number four.

Okay. She grew younger. Yeah. So, uh, so with that, do you wanna take those? Yes. James VanDerBeek. I am Tina Turner, and you might want my life.[00:56:30]

Michael: Excellent speed round here. Plugs for past shows. I've got one. Okay, going. Bill Buckner. Ooh, love, love. I think that there is something about the burden of association, of story, of how people understand you and what they miss about the journey. It's a very, very different example. But if you enjoy the Tina Turner episode, you might enjoy the Bill Buckner episode.

Amit: Yeah. And we're entering, you know, [00:57:00] world series time. That is, it's a interesting time to, to revisit the Bill Buckner coming up

Michael: the 1986 Red Sox World Series, used a baseball

Amit: player. Yes. So mine is, and I know this was just four or five episodes ago, but Johnny Cash and The Big Pivot. Yeah, the big pivot that he experienced inside.

Yeah. I see a lot of it with Tina. I love pairing Johnny Cash with Tina

Michael: Turner. Yeah, it's good. Yes. Really good. Alright, here's a little teaser for the next episode of Famous Eng Gravy. In the [00:57:30] 1970s, he moved to New York to study dance, becoming a member of the Elliot Feld Ballet. Is Gregory Hines still alive?

I think he's dead. Gregory Hines. I think we lost Gregory Hines some years ago.

Amit: Famous Gravy listeners, we love hearing from you. If you wanna reach out with a comment question or to. Participate in our opening quiz. Please email us at hello@famousandgravy.com. In our show notes, we include all kinds of links, including to our website and social channels.

Famous and Gravy is [00:58:00] created and Co-hosted by Michael Osborne and me, Amit Kapur. This episode was produced by Megan Palmer and original music by Kevin Strang. Thanks and see you next time.